Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Pls advise re LEA / FII worries?

(116 Posts)
miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 09:00:58

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miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 12:13:08

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MareeyaDolores Mon 11-Feb-13 13:13:02

Copying in school dr is not that unusual. In rural areas, there's usually only a couple of community doctors who have half a dozen part time roles. This person has been involved in the past, and is probably the child protection lead too. This meeting could put "?FII" to bed and replace it with 'mum still wonders about diagnosis, but I don't' and end with 'agree to disagree, time will tell'.

You could legitimately ask about the other two people, and find out whether they will be attending / why they need the document.

MareeyaDolores Mon 11-Feb-13 13:14:06

find something positive to put in the stupid boxes: makes your legitimate complaints more likely to be heard

bochead Mon 11-Feb-13 14:04:29

What ways has child been supported - list the support you were promised when your child started his current school on a single A4 sheet and staple it to the form. Make this purely factual and add NO opinion whatsoever to it. Make it bullet pointed and add the professional's name and role next to each point.

Put "awaiting implementation date (see attached sheet for action plan)" in teeny boxes 1 & 3.

Your son hasn't really gone backwards, as he's not quite as miserable as he was at the bonkers school so just put "no progress made, awaiting action plan implementation" in the "progress" box, (box 2) methinks.

That makes your point without getting anyone's back up. They said he needed help and haven't yet got their asses into gear on the delivery side.
At the MAC meeting just ask when what's already been proposed can be put in place and then stay calm and let each prof make their point. Listen take notes and respond afterwards in writing.

The less you say (but the more written evidence) you gain the better at this point.

MareeyaDolores Mon 11-Feb-13 14:16:02

Current school has made some (minor) adaptations which have helped (a very little). It's worth formally acknowledging these and saying thank you wink

MareeyaDolores Mon 11-Feb-13 14:17:01

love boch's suggestion btw.
if you can use their previous written minutes/ action plan, even better

lougle Mon 11-Feb-13 14:44:54

I would be cautious about commenting or showing reluctance regarding the involvement of Paed from CAMHS. The Fabricated or Induced Illness by Carers (FII): A Practical Guide for Paediatricians, RCPCH, 2009 specifically lists this as a cause for concern in chapter 5.28 (pg 24).

In fact, it's quite scary reading. Thinking of DD2, it seems you're damned if you do, damned if you don't sad

miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 14:57:24

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bochead Mon 11-Feb-13 15:16:38

so just put "no progress made, awaiting implementation of action plan".

At the meeting - the less you say the better, especially with nasty pead around! Your one pager will say it all for you. All you need to say is that you "are awaiting implementation of the action plan" until you feel like a stuck record & sit back. All you are doing is gently and unoffensively holding them to account.

Don't over think or overanalyse it, and don't let them rile you.

miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 15:34:15

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What Boch said. Keep your mouth well closed at the meeting. Look interested and as though you are giving each point consideration. Thank them for their time and inform them you will get back to them with their questions or to agree (or not) their recommendations.

Good grief Lougle. That document is very scary indeed. I'm pretty certain now that that was the route my LA was planning to take with me, and would have if I hadn't so many well respected PAID FOR Independent reports that were quite clear.

miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 15:55:30

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miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 15:59:45

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I can't say it is dangerous tbh. It's a worry at this stage, but my advice would be the same whatever kind of multi-disciplinary meeting it was.

The fact that there is no SW present makes me think it isn't necessarily sinister. (not saying all SWs are sinister either).

miemohrs Mon 11-Feb-13 16:16:41

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Yes. Put them in, but also follow boch's advice. You need to be clear that there are still massive outstanding issues and they need to be documented.

miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 12:34:35

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lougle Tue 12-Feb-13 12:51:46

playground staff have a good grasp of the group of children they care for and have been helpful to ds when bullying occured

You aren't being asked to evaluate the staff - leave that bit out.

miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 13:15:43

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So be honest. Playground staff eventually helped out with the bullying.

Also, you don't have to be so positve about the lack of intervention that was promised.

Your concerns are:

Interventions promised in August have not yet been implemented and you have had no explanation as to why this is the case.

miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 13:26:07

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PipinJo Tue 12-Feb-13 13:35:49

If I were you I'd be getting advice from a family solicitor. FII accusations is not nice and too easily labelled on parents who push for help. All letters and forms filled in and sent via solicitor headed notepaper to show they should be the ones to worry re legal action and you take this threat of FII extremely serious.

lougle Tue 12-Feb-13 14:46:31

If you read the guidelines for Paeds, then if he had genuine FII concerns you should never have been made aware of them.

This means one of two things:

-The FII was a bluff and you are safe to ignore it


-The Paed is not following his own guidelines and has put your DS at further risk by alerting you.

Incidentally -are you getting copies of any documents they produce in preparation of this meeting, given that you have to give your document in 10 days prior?

There doesn't seem much point in saying that the school move was positive if you aren't going to want him to stay there in the long term - that will make you look barmy, tbh.

miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 17:45:51

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MareeyaDolores Tue 12-Feb-13 18:36:48

You probably aren't being accused of deliberate, 'proper' FII though. Which is a shame, as its relatively easy to disprove proper child abuse.

This is more like being called a deluded, needy individual who is unable to get on with anyone. One who is so mistrusting of professionals and so convinced of her normal child's illness that she harms him. One who exaggerates every tiny problem, imagines many others, and has made him so anxious that he's at risk of becoming weird, maladjusted, backward, unpopular and ill. One who keeps trying out new professionals till she finds one gullible enough to agree with her.

The big problem in fighting this mindset is that there's a bit of this behaviour in many NT mothers, with NT children, including those whose depression and anxiety means they're at the doctors for every sniffle. And are up at the school for every bit of homework that didn't get a smiley face.

So naturally enough, some professionals are disposed to think that if they see a malfunctioning but apparently healthy child with a difficult-to-get-on-with and obviously anxious mother, she must be inadvertently behaving in this way, and be unreliable in her reports. And that downplaying issues, whilst calming her down is the answer. It probably works ok for over-anxious NT families... but it's counterproductive when the difficulties are due to neurological differences.

MareeyaDolores Tue 12-Feb-13 18:39:40

Btw, I'm not saying you're difficult to get on with in normal circumstances, just observing that many of us here probably are the "oh, no, please not her again" parents.

MareeyaDolores Tue 12-Feb-13 18:51:57

In some ways, (yes i know i live in cloud cuckoo land) it might transform your future meetings if you could actually have this type of detailed "am I nuts or not" discussion openly with the paediatrician.

Even if no agreement was reached, every future issue could then be looked at honestly from the two perspectives. But you'd need someone good there to present 'your side', so it doesn't just feed their worries by degenerating into wrangling, tears and power struggles, and that's probably the main barrier.

MareeyaDolores Tue 12-Feb-13 18:54:28

And I'm not saying you've initiated (or even perpetuated) the hugely malfunctioning parents-professionals relationship, but you might wink be the one with the skills to improve it a bit.

miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 20:05:37

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miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 20:06:34

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miemohrs Tue 12-Feb-13 20:14:38

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Nigel1 Tue 12-Feb-13 20:14:39

The above link directs you to the DFE guidance on FII. If you read it through you will see that FII is generally misunderstood, no doubt, courtesy of the Daily Mail, and that what is described within the guidance is generally not what people believe the condition to be. You will note that there are specific issues which constitute the core elements and unless you have acted in that manner it is unlikely that you would be considered as guilty.
Your "guilt" appears to be predicated on the fact that you have changed schools for reasons connected with the provision of your child's education. The last time I looked, that was lawful.
Perhaps a more pertinent point is to establish why you took the actions that you did, what the school did to support you during that time, what the school did to support the child during that time, what support you received from the medical services.
FII is used by many professionals as a club to beat uncooperative parents into submission. Read the guidance then use it to turn tables on the professionals. It is unlikely that they have actually read it

miemohrs Wed 13-Feb-13 11:42:26

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MareeyaDolores Wed 13-Feb-13 20:54:44

erm... yep, it's likely that dc of 'odd' parents are discriminated against in most schools sad

MareeyaDolores Wed 13-Feb-13 20:56:11

And I wouldn't bother posting if I felt devalued by you having your own thoughts grin

MareeyaDolores Wed 13-Feb-13 21:12:24

The problem with being put in an 'odd' box by school (I say this from my own box grin) is that they freely share that opinion with others. And then, if those others have any difficulties in their professional relationship with you, the temptation is to put it down to your 'oddness' rather than the usual causes.

So the usual factors souring a professional relationship, which could normally be overcome with attention, get neglected instead. Eg honest disagreement about diagnosis or treatment, simple crossed wires, poor communication by professional or parent, someone's bad day, an irrational dislike of the mum.

This is sometimes appropriate, as there are some abusive parents out there in the 'odd' category (and I suspect abusers who come across as non-odd probably never get detected sad). But this mindset can also cause groupthink, scapegoating, getting carried away with child protection fears or excessively watching one's backside. And there are sometimes staff who (consciously or unconsciously) capitalise on this as a way to get the team to collude in minimising a child's inconvenient or expensive needs.

That's the reason I think it's worth struggling to get out of the paediatrician's 'too-odd-to-work-with' box. She hasn't 'seen' the mum that you demonstrate on this board: it might be that she never could, on the other hand, it can't hurt.

MareeyaDolores Wed 13-Feb-13 21:14:34

cos she's probably the only kid-doctor in town, so private school or no, she's in the background until/ unless you move.

'as there are some abusive parents out there in the 'odd' category'

I think that parents who aren't very articulate but have real issues to raise are often accused of (and often are) being abusive, particularly parents who have a disability that make it difficult for them to communicate or apply accepted social rules, but who are also desperately worried about their children, with good cause.


MareeyaDolores Wed 13-Feb-13 21:23:16

Star, you're absolutely right.

The over-simplification of complex problems is bizarre. Eg 'ASD' or 'attachment'.
Why so obsessed with 'OR' that it excludes 'AND', 'MAYBE', and 'FIRST-THEN'?

miemohrs Wed 13-Feb-13 21:57:00

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TBH I'm a bit lost with the boxes.

I was just mentioning that I'm articulate, socially capable, bright (I think so anyway) and have been treated in ways that the average person, even the average professional would not believe. It has affected now the WAY I communicate with professionals, my personality, my level of defensiveness and paranoia over little things and, at least whilst it was going on, increased higely my level of anxiety.

But it still happened. Some people are stronger and handle it better when faced with what I did. I imagine, given the vulnerable nature of our core group generally, most fall apart/become abusive/have anxiety levels that prevent them from caring from their children/develop mental health issues, - then justifying the screwing over they get.

This is a general comment and not directed at you.

However, I'd be surprised if your own experiences and feelings weren't now a part of the mix and mess. They were for me.

miemohrs Wed 13-Feb-13 22:20:54

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bochead Wed 13-Feb-13 22:45:15

I live in an area with a useless PCT. I've come across a couple of parents, who are now on prescribed anti-depressants as a direct result of all the stress of being actively undermined by the very professionals that are supposed to support familes like ours. Due to my own limited opportunities to socialise, I suspect they are merely the tip of the iceberg and that many parents do crack up.

My own trust in human nature has suffered irreparable damage sadly. There's no way I could have dealt with being treated like that for a couple of decades and retained my mental health. If we go under, then it really is "game over" for our children. Much as I'd love to deny them the satisfaction, I'm not sure how much even the robust human being can be expected to take before breaking.

If you change schools but stay living in that locale, then I'm worried that you'll have to deal with this nonsense for at least a decade to come. You may be a lot stronger than I am though (I hope so!).

I've suggested how I think you should handle the meeting. I think it's the best approach to take that allows you to both put advocate for your child, without succumbing to the stress, given that you know your nemisis will be in attendance.

lougle Wed 13-Feb-13 22:47:32

It does affect us, doesn't it? But we can't let that affect stop us from doing what we need to do.

I was fortunate enough to discuss DD2 with a S&L therapist at DD1's school today, briefly. I explained that previous school have no concerns, that Paed was disinclined to refer because 'minor grammatical errors are fine at this age', and from the few examples I had already given, the SALT said 'wait...these aren't grammar issues - they're inference, understanding, there's lots of interesting things going on that definitely need looking at.'

Now, on one hand, I've had two S&Ls tell me DD2 has something going on, from my reports of her phrases, etc. On the other hand, I don't want to rock the boat with new school. But, I'm going to have to put my neck out and do something, because I can't sit on the advice of two SALTs and sacrifice DD2 for the sake of protecting myself.

So, I have to pick my moment, and do it with care, but I have to do it.

DD2 was tired at dinner time and wanted me to feed her. I said ' take two mouthfuls, then I'll feed you two.' She cocked her head and said 'Mummy...that's a repeating pattern!!!! Two mouthfuls, two mouthfuls. Two mouthfuls, two mouthfuls. Two mouthfuls, two mouthfuls......'

It's not going to go away...any of it! We can do something, or not...but there it will be.

miemohrs Thu 14-Feb-13 12:31:02

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miemohrs Thu 14-Feb-13 16:06:06

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bochead Thu 14-Feb-13 17:10:51

Wots she got to do wiv anyfing now he's no longer her pupil guv? She's irrelevant, (though it could be said that her mere presence is perhaps evidence that someone is running a bit scared behind the scenes as it smacks of desperation to have her popping up at this stage?).

Time to put your mental blinkers on and just get thru the meeting. You have a clear plan on how to handle it, so just don't be thrown off course. Just concentrate on doing what you need to do, and let them faff around. Knowing you are in the right helps considerably in these situations methinks wink.

pm me & I'll happily read it for you.

miemohrs Thu 14-Feb-13 17:25:47

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miemohrs Thu 14-Feb-13 18:59:28

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miemohrs Thu 14-Feb-13 19:00:46

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MareeyaDolores Thu 14-Feb-13 22:01:04

Appropriate response
If a LoonyMum causing illness in a well child.

Inadvertantly harmful response
If AnxiousMum is possibly exacerbating illness in a borderline child.

Positively dangerous response
to a RandomMum dealing with major illness in an ASD child.

Tbh, after seeing that, I'd forget the private school letter unless she & boss officially downgrade you from probable LoonyMum and give you their blessing to send it.

MareeyaDolores Thu 14-Feb-13 22:37:30

Again I wonder if you (perhaps with a lawyer sad although a mediator is really what's required) being super-reasonable could somehow fix this huge gulf between you & the paed. This meeting is not likely to focus on DS, his needs and how best to meet them.

There is such a possible divergence of opinion.
1) Obviously 100% normal and saying anything different is abusive
2) Major neurodevelopmental problems and obviously needs substantial special educational provision.

Although it might be risky to highlight the disagreement, there are risks with the other option of trying to discuss DS without acknowledging it. Assuming FII and ASD are mutually exclusive is illogical: it's theoretically quite possible to have both, or neither.

Could you find something in between?
Eg Being accused of what sounds like FII made me very anxious, this adversely affected DS's anxieties, and my communication skills.

DS has a complex mess of minor issues making it hard for both professionals and parents to exclude other serious issues. Its therefore hard to work out what (if anything) is going to be a long-term problem.

MareeyaDolores Thu 14-Feb-13 22:39:00

Tbh, I'm not tactful enough for that approach. I'd move.

miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 00:27:21

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lougle Fri 15-Feb-13 08:37:46

I think you need to separate out the different elements here.

1) I think his concerns are valid (bear with me here). If he views your child as "a normal healthy little boy who happens to have hay fever, whose eyes are sensitive to light, and who has a little trouble throwing and catching a ball." and he feels that he was led to make a diagnosis of a significant eye condition from your reports and those weren't verified by observation and on the strenth of that diagnosis you asked him if your DS should now be 'registered as visually impaired' can see why he was concerned. The trouble is, that the route back from 'extremely worried' is a lot longer than the route to 'extremely worried'.

2) Who diagnosed your DS? I presume it was a private diagnosis by someone reputable and noteworthy? If so, they would presumably be willing to stand by their diagnosis and confirm that you aren't 'loony mum'.

3) If the Paed was 'extremely worried' he should have used the guidance I linked to above, to refer to CP without alerting you. As you have had no contact from CP, then either his referral wasn't deemed significant, or else, he hasn't referred, breaking his own guidance.

4) Why does the mention of the dx locally change the risk your DS is under? It's nonsensical - either he is at risk, or he isn't.

If I were you (and I almost was 2 weeks ago) I would (and did) get my ducks in a row. This is what I'd do...but I'm a bit like that:

1) Telephone Social Services and ask for someone in Child Protection. Say that you have conflicting reports from private paediatrician and local paediatrician. Say that as a result of that, you have a written communication from the Paediatrician that he is concerned about your DS's welfare and that he has said it's standard procedure that he discuss with CP team. State that you have been warned that mentioning the dx will lead to CP action, and you are unsure what you can do about this while meeting your DS's diagnosed needs?

FII parents don't go to the source of their potential undoing. I did this 2 weeks ago. HT threatened legal action by LA. I went straight to LA and said 'I've had this email, this is the situation, what can I do about it, but I won't be sending her back to school 1 under any circumstance, fine or no fine. They sorted it all out their end and put a note on the welfare database to say that they had no concerns and that if someone should raise them, they were confident that the matter was in hand.

2) Contact the private Paed. Inform them of the situation. They won't be happy that their dx is being thrown out. Tell them that as a result of the dx you are being threatened with Child Protection proceedings. Ask for their advice on next steps. Hopefully, they will support you.

3) Take a copy of the report from dx paed with you when you go to the meeting. Don't take the original!! You have a written report from a specialist.

You can't be bullied into ignoring an official diagnosis. You may have to accept that you won't get the help here though.

lougle Fri 15-Feb-13 08:38:08

Oh, and you can pm the finished thing if you think it will help.

miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 09:16:34

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miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 09:39:09

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miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 09:40:46

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lougle Fri 15-Feb-13 10:01:58

You know that you won't get anywhere, don't you? sad

I watched 'The Hobbit' this week. There was a line spoken, which said "True courage is not about knowing when to take a life, but when to spare one." Sometimes, true courage is fighting on. Other times, it's in recognising that fight can not be won and sparing the 'troops' from the fall-out of trying.

A retracted dx and a 'not strong' diagnosis from DK....what makes you think it isn't strong, what does the report say?

miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 10:06:09

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utterlyscared1 Fri 15-Feb-13 10:18:51

Will PM you. xx

feelthelies Fri 15-Feb-13 11:34:33

If you have a dx, you are in a safe enough position to not be accused of FII.

If you don't, or it's a half-and-half - 'symptoms of' 'consistent with ASD' or 'meets some criteria', it's less clearcut. It would also depend on if the dx was made purely on the basis of one/ two visits or more and if information was given by school as well as you.

If it was a one-visit parent-reported consultation, I don't think it puts you in a massively strong position, sorry.

feelthelies Fri 15-Feb-13 11:42:38

If it helps, one professional felt I had (then) Munchausen's by Proxy when my son was little because I was pushing for more hours in his statement and she felt I was restricting his independence. This was despite school having major issues with his behaviour etc. so it wasn't like I was a lone voice! She was also concerned because he seemed 'emotionally unusual' and she wondered about 'the mother's role' in creating 'independence from maternal bonds' hmm .

She had never met him; she was a behaviour service bod whose colleague had worked with my son for a few weeks.

I hated her but had enough people who knew that the issues were very real and not caused by me that I saw her as a lone voice and could ignore her. When my son received his autism dx some months later (not pushed for by me and a surprise to me!), she melted away with her concerns and stopped turning up at meetings to harass me.

However, the fear of not being believed remains with me even now, 7 years later, and I am still a bit obsessive about collecting evidence every so often so that people can't ever again accuse me of being on my own agenda.

I was also 'lucky' in that the NHS services and school were on-side; she was a single randomer. You are not in that position.

I don't think the CP issue should massively concern you as you have enough issues seen by professionals on record to cover you on why you have concerns about your ds BUT the main point is that these suspicions, from so many people and services, mean that you will never ever get these people to listen to you with an open mind and give your ds what you are asking. You either accept that and supplement the poor deal at school with something at home or you move areas.

Sorry not to be more positive but, as I have said, I have been in a similar position with only a fraction of the opposition that you had and know how completely impossible it was to ever work with that service again. Even once the woman faded away, her colleagues approached everything I said with a hmm and luckily, it was a minor service with pointless input so we could cut them off. Nobody really believes or supports you in your area and I don't see how that will change. Really sorry.

lougle Fri 15-Feb-13 12:28:49

feelthelies I agree with you. Also, putting that into the context of my own situation:

Just one month ago, I had never had a conversation with the HT of DD2's school beyond 'good morning'.

One month ago I had a 10 minute conversation with her at the school gate about an attendance letter I received. That alerted me that she was not going to 'work with me' regarding DD2.

3 weeks ago today, I wrote an email to the HT pointing out that DD2 had a temperature in school that day.

One face to face conversation of 5 minutes, and 3 emails after that, were enough to set in stone that there was no way the HT was going to support us with DD2's needs.

So, 2 face to face conversations and 4 emails were enough for DD2 to be removed and placed in another school, in the space of a few days.

You don't have a secure position, at all.

You have:

Evidence of 'attachment issues' from local paeds.
A private report that does not give a clear diagnosis of ASD.
Evidence that you suggested your DS may need to be registered VI (regardless of how that came about, that's what they can say).
School saying he's just fine.

I sadly agree with feelthelies, that I don't think it matters what you do at that meeting, these people will not be giving you the support you feel your DS needs.

bochead Fri 15-Feb-13 12:51:46

Agree the meeting won't get your child the support he needs, however it can be used to move your position forwards from "loony Mum" to "perhaps Mum has some legitamate concerns, we'll wait and see?" Ths would be a fantastic thing in terms of the wider group of professionals. (Think that pead is too entrenched to change).

I do think you have to accept that your area doesn't have professionals with the skill sets available to help your child and that this isn't going to change. I've come to a similar conclusion about my own circumstances. While my son's school mean well, they just don't "get" ASD traits enough to understand that zero contact between myself and his TA is very damaging. They don't understand the need for really strong consistency in approaches between home/school. He's a guinea pig, and that has consequences.

Relationships are reasonable but they are at risk of souring badly if I push an issue that well-meaning folks just don't see as relevant. That would undo all the good done in getting a proper diagnosis at long last (including a consultants direct letter to SS to "close" the file properly iykiwm).

Given our history & the fact I'm just not up to another protracted battle - the only real solution is move to a new area for us. If I go this year, I leave with a clean slate against all the accusations made against me a couple of years ago. If I wait too long DS will deteriorate again. Finances stop me going this weekend, but I realise there is no other long term solution if my son is to achieve the outcome I want for him.

Got your pm, and frankly it looks great. (waited to respond so I could read it a few times just to be sure). Go with it and just say as little as possble while takng copious notes in the meeting.

miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 13:48:18

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miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 13:53:40

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miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 14:08:02

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miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 14:12:10

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feelthelies Fri 15-Feb-13 16:43:16

I wouldn't go for 'why' - I'd ask 'when' and also have very clear identification of which professional recommended the things you're asking for.


In the LA I was living, I was being accused of FII, and then, upon dx, of overstating ds' needs (and also understating them), then of implemented barbaric interventions, then of DLA fraud, then of being banned from internet forums for spreading SN propaganda, then of taking away resources from people who really needed them, then for trying to get hundreds of thousands of pounds of educational intervention that ds didn't need.

I refuted every single one of those points. No-one would accuse me (openly) of any of them now. It nearly broke my family dealing with it but I got through it in no small part thanks to MN. But it wasn't the 'existence' of MN that saved us. It wasn't even the advice and the often brutal criticism.

It was the fact that I followed it.

It took me too long to realise that refuting all of the above didn't matter. There was no way that anyone in that LA was EVER going to believe that I was the innocent party. No officer and no teacher. And not only was my ds that I was fighting for going to suffer, but so were my other children. All that had changed was that they were prevented (by evidence as it happens) from stating what they believed.

You know my story OP. I moved. You also know that moving a mountain could have probably been easier, given that we were mid-tribunal, financially stretched, expecting a baby soon, had a sibling to consider and being 'chased' in rl and online by an unhinged solicitor.

My loonymum tag probably hasn't left me completely. Indeed in some circumstances it is probably now accurate as where I was sane before I am not now. But it doesn't affect my relationships with the people who will work with my children, and that is the point.

Personally, I don't think you will ever get rid of your loonymum tag whilst you stay where you are, and I think you may get even a bigger tag trying to force a school that doesn't want your ds, to take them against their will.

miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 17:25:44

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bochead Fri 15-Feb-13 17:34:32

I got a very, very obvious slap in the face today when I picked DS up from school. I won't go into what happened exactly (lest I identify myself or worse the professionals who HAVE been trying to help!). Just let it suffice to say it's abundantly clear that no matter how hard I try maintain positive relationships, when something trivial happens (or in this case doesn't) the habit of just blaming me rather than dealing with the issue at hand, is just too ingrained now to ever go away properly.

All Mums are NOT equal, and some of us are considerably lower on the totem pole than others. It doesn't matter that I have the documentary evidence to show that I was treated very unfairly in the past, my card is still permanently marked. *"Not her again"*is now my permanent status.

Some days I feel like conceiving twins just to really upset the sob's wink However the sensible thing to do in order to prevent it eroding my personality any more than it already has is to move. I like you, waited and regret it, partially as it meant my financial position & future career prospects deteriorated so much as a result of hanging around. This means it's now a much bigger mountain to climb than it would have been.

miemohrs Fri 15-Feb-13 17:45:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

feelthelies Fri 15-Feb-13 18:12:07

Not really surprising, if you're splitting up!

feelthelies Fri 15-Feb-13 18:13:38

I agree that the energy you are spending on this would be best spent on a move.

You can start researching areas with ood m/s schools who work well with kids with your ds's needs.

You can research rents in those areas.

You can go and have a look at those areas.

These things will lead to a positive eventual outcome. Your current actions, while understandable, will not, sadly.

feelthelies Fri 15-Feb-13 18:14:00

sad bochead

utterlyscared1 Fri 15-Feb-13 18:34:39

Starlight - think we may have left the same area. Remember seeing you on a post before (some while back) and realising that you were in that area (unless the one you've moved to, but don't think so!). If it was the one you left - they were absolutely awful - even IPSEA said I had no hope.

Moving was the best thing we ever did! When started new school I merely said DD got this and I think that, but nothing else. Within 2 weeks new school had contacted Ed Psyche, having sat me down to sympathetically advise they thought DD needed significant help (think they thought I hadn't realised!). 5 years of fighting previous school and LEA and being treated like mad mother. New area, new school and the fight was off my hands and a weight off my shoulders (apart from my now current problem as you know - will PM you the details, but have spent day writing v long letter and copying attachments elsewhere.) Current school absolutely appalled by old, not because i've slated them and I've been very cautious not to, but state of DD emotionally and her very obvious difficulties when we arrived.

I would be very careful about reporting failures. if they challenge you then use the statement I've said in PM. As Lougle said if it really was a proper CP FII allegation, i very much doubt you'd know.

Wishing you so much luck.

utterlyscared1 Fri 15-Feb-13 18:41:04

By the way a number of children take cuddly toys to DCs current school for the same reason as yours and there is no bullying/comments whatsoever for doing so. They hug the CT and HT (if they want) when they go in. You can speak to CT/TA/HT anytime and take them into their classroom to settle them in even in KS2.

There are fab schools out there who really do care and want to help.

'If it was the one you left - they were absolutely awful - even IPSEA said I had no hope.'

Certainly sounds like them.

'5 years of fighting previous school and LEA and being treated like mad mother.'

yes. Though for us it was luckily just 3 years. People on MN kept saying 'for goodness sake, will you get out of there?' and I kept saying 'but SURELY it must be some kind of misunderstanding, they just aren't hearing, they must care really?'

Er, nope.

And yes. Current school absolutely appalled by old, as well as appalled by old LA.

miemohrs Sat 16-Feb-13 11:12:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lougle Sat 16-Feb-13 12:41:31

Well you know that I said the same after looking at it. Again, separating out the elements is needed.

Is there anything 'wrong' with what you wrote? No. It is articulate, clear, well-written and allows no misunderstanding of the issues raised.

Does the overall tone match the statement 'keen to work with you all'? No. It is a very critical document, which was my concern.

Will it actually get you anywhere? Yes and no. I think it will truly put any notion of togetherness to bed and it will become clear that you can't work with 'new old school' and leave you no choice but to move him. Again.

Is that a bad thing? Probably not!

So, your DS's godmother is bang on the money. Your overall goal will be the decider as to whether it's worth going ahead with it.

Whatever you do, you have to start looking at the long term as well as the immediate Crisis, because otherwise you are going to have a whole new layer to those attachment issues, caused by the cycle of school changes.

MareeyaDolores Sat 16-Feb-13 12:53:57

OP, whatever you write (beyond 1-2 sentances in their little boxes perhaps) won't be read properly. Best case scanario, it will be skimmed, and superficially addressed. Worst case, is it'll be added to file of LoonyMum "proof".

I'd pass it to godma, and ask her to précis it as her own contribution.

miemohrs Sat 16-Feb-13 13:36:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lougle Sat 16-Feb-13 14:41:27

I hear you, but you might be shocked to realise that you've been having these same dilemmas and posts since September 2011 and it's February 2013 - that's 1½ years! You (and he) can't go on like this.

miemohrs Sat 16-Feb-13 19:59:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

miemohrs Sat 16-Feb-13 20:14:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MareeyaDolores Sat 16-Feb-13 20:47:53

OP, over the last 18m you've become a million times better at putting things clearly, accepting constructive criticism, calming your own reactions, finding the middle ground (where it exists) etc. This will stand you in good stead in the next area, or (assuming a miracle changing things) even the current one.

Are we all calling her OP because we haven't a chance at remembering how to spell her name? grin

lougle Sat 16-Feb-13 23:41:41

nah, <adopts rather fake but down with it 'del boy' accent> it's 'cos she's incognito, innit?

miemohrs Sun 17-Feb-13 11:28:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

miemohrs Sun 17-Feb-13 11:44:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Awomansworth Sun 17-Feb-13 14:22:48

"its not just about my personality"

To a degree it is though... because you have known this...

"You do know they have been 2 failing schools with police involvement in bullying (not ours but others) the hosp has just been slammed in an official report and the council is the most dodgy mess of backhanders ever,.. too
and Ds has a complex mess of minor stuff too which has been holding him back and making him miserable as it has been - ENTIRELY UNADDRESSED"

For a very long time now and you somehow have convinced yourself that you can change all of the above, or why else would you invest so much time and effort into making an unworkable situation work!

I really am so sorry to be so harsh, but if you were my friend I would be saying the following...

Get the fuck out of there... don't waste anymore of your sons precious time trying to convince people who (in your own admission) will never change.

All the best with your meeting.

bochead Sun 17-Feb-13 15:03:49

18 months for you, 5 years for me blush.

Wanting to maintain continuity for your children and family is normal, and most people take this for granted that in the abscence of job loss, divorce or bereavement it's to be expected. We aren't prepared for stuff like you've had to face in antenatal classes and their isn't a shelf dedicated to it in Waterstones, or in the self-help section of magazines.

Don't beat yourself up, just do what you gotta do. Having a clear goal for me makes putting up with the daily petty crap easier to deal with as I can at least see the light at the end of the tunnel. It was the inability to see that the situation would ever improve that I found most damaging to my state of mind.

Awomansworth Sun 17-Feb-13 19:54:59

"Wanting to maintain continuity for your children and family is normal"

This is very true... but surely if your child's well being is suffering by trying to maintain that continuity, it is the WRONG thing to do, if there is an alternative.

Yes, I get that change is scary, I have been through enough of my own to understand that.

As you quite rightly said though... we all do what we gotta do. No one is right/wrong.

The one lesson I've learned from MNSN is that paths have been well trodden by others before us, so we owe it to them to listen and learn from the struggles they have had to overcome.

miemohrs Sun 17-Feb-13 20:15:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NameChanger4 Sun 17-Feb-13 20:59:42

'I do need to know that I have exhausted every option here before I place stress on him via change, even if I hope it is for the best, at the end of the day.'

I think that you now have exhausted every option and you've certainly exhausted yourself with all this. You've tried several tactics, including even going back to the school that failed, and I can't see that any of these so-called professionals are going to suddenly wave a magic wand to make everything right for your ds.
I had to move a couple of hundred miles away from family and friends due to circumstances and yes, it was very hard for ds and us all. However, in the new county we had a school that could see things with fresh eyes and made various referrals which have now resulted in a dx - something we would never have got in the old county. A move is stressful and daunting but better that than more precious time wasted when that time could be used for interventions and support that would make a big difference to your ds.
Sorry if I come across as harsh but you really need to be decisive on this. Time flies by so quickly that you really can't afford to prevaricate for much longer.

lougle Sun 17-Feb-13 22:15:15

No-one is saying that you haven't worked hard in this time. However, whatever we do it is the outcome that matters not the effort in. Goodness, I sound all ABA...but isn't that what people say here all the time?

It doesn't matter if a child has 10 hours SALT, if they make no progress it may as well be 0. It doesn't matter if they have 4 interventions...what has it achieved?

None of your choices have been pleasant ones. Of course not. However, they are choices. Now, if you choose to stay where you are and hope that your DS isn't further damaged by the limited provision he receives, so that he benefits from the familiarity of his surroundings, that's a valid choice. It doesn't have to comply with what anyone else says they would do. I have to admit, I would have to be fairly desperate to move DD1 away from my parents, for example. In fact, I'd probably HE rather than do that.

The key is to make a choice now. If this school isn't going to play ball you have to decide whether what you are pursuing is worth the upheaval of a move, and do it.

MareeyaDolores Mon 18-Feb-13 09:25:32

This isn't about your personality, I know that, you know that, and I have more than enough weak spots myself not to risk throwing stones in glass houses anyway grin. The trouble with our weak spots is that unhelpful services often have a way of exploiting them which leaves our dc high and dry.

[boch, I raise your 5 years, I was warned off expecting any help from one particular organisation 6y ago, and it's taken me till now to realise the doomsayers were right. But too late to de-involve them now without losing all the useful services as well sad]

MareeyaDolores Mon 18-Feb-13 09:27:18

and lougle, can I clone you wink? <brings pocket size lougle to whisper sense in my ear at next important meeting.

MareeyaDolores Mon 18-Feb-13 09:33:22

If you move areas, seeing the local child protection paediatrician and social services as soon as you arrive, will stop any rumours in their tracks.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Mon 18-Feb-13 10:18:53

I wonder to what extent not wanting to disrupt both DC is wanting to protect them from the separation of their parents?

I can remember you posting about remembrance Sunday and being surprised that you and H were still doing things together given that he was supposedly planning to move out. In your earlier posts he went from DH to your seeming to accept that it was not going to work and is now plain H. And yet you are still together. Forget your Hobson's choice for a moment, why is he still there? Why hasn't he left?

Practicalities are not priorities when 'needs must'.

From a CP pov this does not look good. H could go a long way to refuting these claims if he supported you and shared your concerns.

Awomansworth Mon 18-Feb-13 11:45:04

Yes... I agree we would all have to be fairly desparate to uproot our families from everything they know. Although from following OP threads over the months I would say that the situation is fairly desparate. No?

None of us are perfect, I never pretended to be, but that shouldn't restrict us from having an opinion on a situation that we perceive (from what OP writes)may be damaging to a child's well being. I would want people to be honest with me as when we are living it day to day, we are sometimes unable to see what needs to be done.

Yes I said I would move if I were in OP situation, and yes I would advise her move. She doesn't have to take that advice though... It's just an opinion not an order.

I won't comment further, and I'm sorry if my views were not the kind you were after.

I hope that the meeting goes well on Friday and that you find a way forward for your family.

miemohrs Mon 18-Feb-13 12:47:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

miemohrs Mon 18-Feb-13 13:01:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

miemohrs Mon 18-Feb-13 13:07:42

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lougle Mon 18-Feb-13 13:16:57

You know we are supporting you, even if we say things that aren't fluffy bunnies and patting you on head, don't you?

If we just say 'you're doing great', you'll still be posting the same threads in 5 years' time.

miemohrs Mon 18-Feb-13 13:33:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lougle Mon 18-Feb-13 13:42:10

honk x

bjkmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 13:45:00

I have followed your post for many months and know the long path you have been down. A good friend said to me that once you leave somewhere you should never go back as you left at the time for a good reason. I ignored their advice and returned to a job I had left previously, it didn't work out there at all and I left again. I vowed to then follow his advice! We lived in the area we are now a few years ago, we had a battle to get our younger son dx and no one would listen to us. Dh was in the armed forces so we got posted and moved away. Within the first day of new school, the school said he showed clear signs of autism despite the last area always stating no and that it was in my head. He was then dx very quickly. Hubby then got made redundant and as we had a house in the old area we moved back so for a 2nd time ignored my friends advice,

Thought things would be better as son now dx and the dx was watertight. Put him in a school o. Ore text he would get a u it placement, he was dumped in the mainstream, removed him after 6 weeks and he went to a good school. Sadly that has broken down as he is soooo complex. Now been through the tribunal process where I came face to face with the old head. They are trying to place him back in the old rubbish school.

If we lose tribunal, we will move, not far but enough to get into the next county and far enough where our past will not travel with us. I live I. The smallest county I. England and my experience is similar to yours. It doesn't matter now even if we do win as my card is marked. For my own sanity we have to go, yes it means selling this house etc and the stress it will bring and my daughter will have to move school again but for the family it is he right thing to do. I think you have reached the point of no return. You cannot change these people's attitudes to you, you could get a gold plated dx but they will not change their minds. I know that is wrong and we want to believe that people will see the truth but they simply cannot and a move is probably the only option left.

When I moved the last time to a new area it was fab - no one knew us or our history, made some great friends and we were happy. Some things werent ideal but life never us but to live with this big cloud of doubt over you all the time is not healthy nor will it make you happy. I don't think the private school is a good option either , I think that will also cause problems as well. You cannot change things unless you change areas and I know that's daunting - think back to last summer and the state you were in then and how you have battled to try and make the best of things but you are no further forward and now you have all of this rubbish still to deal with. My DH does not want to move mainly cos of the cost and it makes us look like we are running away but I've told him straight that I need to feel on an even keel or our family falls apart and I simply cannot remain here now, I have burnt too may bridges through no fault of my own just to get hell for my kids.

At the tribunal, the head of the old school threw in the comment about 'things going on at home' no one has ever said there are concerns re my children so I know if I lost and had to send my son to her school the first sign of me complaining etc and I could find myself on a path that I would never have thought I would be on so I'm getting out of here for my sanity and for my children

utterlyscared1 Mon 18-Feb-13 14:36:36

OP - does your H have a good friend that he can talk to? At the end of last year things were so bad (DH was incredibly defensive and I took the brunt of this) that I thought we would separate - he has thankfully now spoken to a good friend of his. Things are so different now and he is fully supportive of me and like a different person. (my husband isn't one for opening up at all and I am extremely grateful to his friend.)

miemohrs Tue 19-Feb-13 13:56:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MareeyaDolores Tue 19-Feb-13 18:56:43

I would first check if they are listening, or prepared to entertain anything you say. Responses to a few anodyne comments like ds is 'not quite reading yet', 'a bit shy' and gets 'slightly overwhelmed in big groups' will demonstrate attitudes.

No harm in asking, but would get teacher godma to plan the phrasing and tone.

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