Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

A bit closer to a diagnosis, but it aint a good one

(46 Posts)
hiddenhome Fri 23-Nov-12 12:12:23
Allonsy Fri 23-Nov-12 12:45:17

I dont know anything about narcissim i had to google it, but didnt want to leave your post unanswered i know how horrible that can feel. I wouldnt of thought something like this could be diagnosed in a child. A quick glance of the symptoms sounded like my 6 year old! could they have got it wrong?

moosemama Fri 23-Nov-12 13:10:43

Hidden, I'm quite shocked that they are going down the personality disorder route at such a young age and wonder if it's down to the family history and them not knowing what else to do.

I'm not a professional, but my Mum is a clinical psych and we have talked in the past about how children are constantly developing and changing from childhood through the teenager and young adult years and that's why it's impossible to identify PDs until they're quite a bit older.

As NorthernLurker said on the other thread, put the label out of your mind if you possibly can for now and focus of getting support to do as much as you can to work on what he needs to help him learn the skills he's going to need to overcome whatever it is that's at the root of his behaviour.

If it helps, my dsis's ex partner had NPD and their eldest is very similar in many ways. Her childhood and teen years were very hard on the family and she herself really struggled for quite a while, but she is now in her mid-twenties and a devoted mum to a lovely little boy, who is the centre of her world and nothing comes before him - so you see, things can and do change. She has had to learn some tough lessons along the way and I do think her df's genes had a part to play in her personality type, iyswim, but that isn't all of who she is and when push came to shove she decided to learn the lessons, take the knocks and make the right choices with regard to how she behaves and treats other people.

She still has tendencies, she has absolutely no appreciation for anything that the family, or anyone else, does for her (and they do a lot) and she is still very much, me, me, me, but perhaps only a bit worse than a lot of people these days. A few years ago everyone was wondering how long we could all carry on supporting her and getting a kick in the teeth back every time, we were worried she would never find her path, but she has and it shows it can be done.

You sound like you are blaming yourself, please be kinder to yourself, it's no-one's fault, it really isn't.

I know you don't believe it, but you are a fantastic parent to have kept on fighting and looking for answers for your ds for all this time.

Ineedalife Fri 23-Nov-12 14:04:07

Hi hidden sorry you are having to go through thissad

I am sure you have but have you looked at PDA, or Atypical Autism.

Dd3 was originally going to be Dxed with Atypical autism because she didnt meet all the criteria for Aspergers but the psych decided to Dx her with ASD in the end.

Has anyone done a DISCO assessment on your Ds it was devised by Lorna Wing to help to diagnose those people who dont easily meet the criteria and often slip through the net.

BeeMom Fri 23-Nov-12 14:07:42

I have known of only one person formally diagnosed with a personality disorder prior to adulthood (and that was Borderline Personality Disorder - which has a VERY defined set of diagnostic criteria) and I worked in the mental health field for years. TBH, this seems young to me.

With that said, if this diagnosis will help with accessing appropriate supports finally, for both your DS and you and your DP, then perhaps it is a good thing (guardedly, of course). I can't speak to the future for you, but for now, don't beat yourself up. You didn't break your DS, you are doing your best to help and support him, and you have to take care of yourself in the process.

Iceflower Fri 23-Nov-12 14:19:24

What Ineedalife said.

bochead Fri 23-Nov-12 14:57:02

IF your child does need this label then see it as a signpost to help her get THE best professional therapies and support possible & the best training for you to help her.

I've said before on this board that there are labels out there that still carry as much old fashioned fear and predjudice as leprosy. (When people hear my sibling's "label" they just cannot reconcile it with the lovely lady sitting in front of them). The brain doesn't mature until 25, so you still have the best part of 2 decades to help her as much as you possibly can. The brain is VERY plastic and she's still only 6 - waaaay to early to get despondant just yet wink.

As bonkers as it sounds you are likely to get more meaningful longterm help from the professionals with a slightly more unusual label given early like this than with one like ADHD or ASD just because it looks good on individual's CV's. Your child will be seen as an individual and you'll be offered far less generic but utterly useless "interventions" along the way, and more targetted appropriate help. It's the outcome that counts, not how you got there, or what it was called along the way.

As parents we can hit a point where we don't care what they call it, so long as the child gets the correct help they need to enable them to fufil their individual potential iyswim. Life with both a sibling & a child with different neurodisorders has made me cynical but hopefully realistically optimistic too. The brain is plastic & your child is only 6 still.

hiddenhome Fri 23-Nov-12 19:01:13

I know he's young, but I did wonder about NPD because his father is textbook and this is how ds1 is turning out. I'm shocked, but not surprised that this might be the problem. I haven't detailed all his problems here, but, trust me, he's textbook sad

I'm hoping that he'll receive the right help and that might turn him off the path that his awful father has taken - bullying, entitled, controlling, dictator that he is.

ArthurPewty Fri 23-Nov-12 21:55:10

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ArthurPewty Fri 23-Nov-12 21:56:17

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ArthurPewty Fri 23-Nov-12 22:01:54

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Ineedalife Fri 23-Nov-12 22:30:03

Your Dd2 sounds sooo like my Dd1 leonie and although she is undiagnosed I am pretty certain that she had Aspergers, not NPD.

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Fri 23-Nov-12 23:50:12

Have no experience of NPD, but honking for you. So long as it helps you in dealing with your DS's behaviour, that's all that really counts. (((hugs)))

ArthurPewty Sat 24-Nov-12 07:35:41

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TheLightPassenger Sat 24-Nov-12 08:05:01

I agree with Moose. I wonder if they have been a bit too ready given the family history to make a PD diagnosis. I think try and read up about it yourself, and get clear in your head whether you think the PD diagnosis sounds correct. If so, as Boc says, pursue help/therapy etc on that basis. If not then starting thinking second opinion. As surely it would be a v complex matter justifying tertiary referral to differentiate AS from a PD?

ArthurPewty Sat 24-Nov-12 08:26:38

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TheLightPassenger Sat 24-Nov-12 08:31:30

Looking at the other thread, it looks like it is suspected NPD rather than a formal diagnosis of the OP's ex as well....

londonone Sat 24-Nov-12 09:30:51

It sounds like they are considering it rather than making a formal diagnosis. From what you have posted on the other thread about the consultants explanation etc it sounds as if he was also talking about attachment issues. Which given the way your ex was controlling you at the time of your sons infancy seems like a possibilty

mariammma Sat 24-Nov-12 10:01:58

Aargh, posted over there instead of here. Hate being exposed to chat, will ask mnhq to shift it....

ArthurPewty Sat 24-Nov-12 13:30:49

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hiddenhome Sat 24-Nov-12 21:36:42

I don't know if he's got a PD. I do know that there's something badly wrong with him though. Nobody can be that unpleasant from such an early age through to adolescence without something being wrong sad He's never been abused or neglected. There were some bonding issues, but I never ignored or materially neglected him. He was always well taken care of and given attention. It was just when he was very young that his father used to bully me and prevent me from picking him up and nurturing him the way I wanted to. I kicked his father out when ds1 was a toddler, then I tried to make it up to ds1 the best I could.

Apart from his father's manipulation of him, he's never been subjected to anything nasty. I've always tried to be a good mum and he does say I've always been a good mum to him.

The consultant (psychologist) said that anxiety and insecurity is what makes him want to control people.

What is HFA LeonieDelt?

ArthurPewty Sat 24-Nov-12 21:49:28

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ArthurPewty Sat 24-Nov-12 21:50:28

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hiddenhome Sat 24-Nov-12 22:38:27

He doesn't come across like he has autism though. He can make good eye contact, he's sociable, he doesn't have any obsessions, his verbal communication is very good - he does talk too loudly though - he seems to need people and is very attention seeking. I thought autism involved a decreased need for contact with others and poor communication abilities. He doesn't treat people as though they have feelings and he is often blunt to the point of being offensive. He's dismissive, egotistical and rude. He can just about hold a conversation and let others speak, but will but in and talk over them if he considers their point to be less important than his own. His friend described him as a 'control freak' and the teachers also criticise him for not accepting others points of view. He easily hurts people's feelings and this is why most of his class dislike him.

He rubs people up the wrong way and is then offended and shocked when they kick back against this treatment - his father does this. He blames others for his mistakes, lies, won't ever accept that he's in the wrong, sees things in black and white and never compromises. He expects everyone else to defer to him and describes himself as 'being awesome'. His self esteem has been assessed and it's very high - he's not just bluffing it or covering up a deep insecurity - he honestly believes that he's wonderful. He puts other people down a lot - generally based on their perceived lack of intelligence, occasionally their look or social class. He's arrogant and boorish. The type of unpleasant businessman type that you'd hate to work for hmm

He does have a certain charm and is good looking, but he can't keep the act up for long and when people find out what he's like, they avoid him.

He does have tics and poor physical coordination. He can't concentrate or focus very well - his private assessment came back that he has adhd, but nobody in the LA seems to agree with this.

hiddenhome Sat 24-Nov-12 22:41:20

I've always said that he'll either end up in prison or running the country confused

He's interested in politics, history and sociology and will give us potted history lessons at home. He has strong views on what other countries are doing wrong or have done wrong in the past hmm

mariammma Sat 24-Nov-12 23:00:56

Took my massive post off chat cos it was a bit too dogmatic for non-SN parents to read blush grin

This guy is talking bollocks. Narcissistic traits are not a diagnosis. Personality disorder cannot be diagnosed till 18 at the very earliest, and is a dodgy label before 25 (as said above). This is because so many people mature and improve well into early adulthood. Plus it's an incredibly stigmatising diagnosis and there is sod-all NHS help available for PD patients unless they try suicide so many times that the admissions start costing £50-£100,000/ year.

And one year of neglect is highly unlikely to cause such severe damage. Your ds was well-parented (by you, and latterly also your dh) for every year of his life bar the first. Adoptions of Romanian orphanage children have shown fairly conclusively that early deprivation does cause harm, but that most of this is reversible when the environment improves. Your evil ex messing with ds's head during contact is not sufficient to cause permanent severe neurological damage.

Read this by a mum whose 4 adopted dc have asd. She was fobbed off for years with talk of attachment disorder and early deprivation.

Now, I haven't said the camhs dr is wrong, but to be certain that a dc hasnt also got an asd when they are demonstrating clear evidence of lifelong poor social communication, lack of social imagination, and rubbish social interaction is a bit foolhardy brave. You can get a second NHS opinion from great ormond street, the Elizabeth Newson centre, guys/St Thomas, the Maudsley....

mariammma Sat 24-Nov-12 23:11:06

And btw, on your other thread you're being incredibly harsh on your naive, abused, 14-years-younger, post-natally depressed self. Hope you've snapped out of it now. You've had a guilty twinge, acknowledged it, felt sorry and made reparation, so it's time to let it go. Otherwise it'll just focus you on all the wrong things and preventably block you from actually loving and helping your ds.

Which really would be a good reason for guilt!

hiddenhome Sat 24-Nov-12 23:14:33

How can I get referred to a proper paediatrician though? We live in the NE and don't have access to specialist centres.

I'm scared this guy is leading us down the wrong path now sad

ArthurPewty Sun 25-Nov-12 08:32:19

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ArthurPewty Sun 25-Nov-12 08:34:25

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ArthurPewty Sun 25-Nov-12 08:37:36

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mariammma Sun 25-Nov-12 10:17:25

North East is fine. Call here and find out how to get seen by this very eminent person's team.

mariammma Sun 25-Nov-12 10:23:30

The Camhs guy is right about the narcissism being a big problem. He's probably right about there being some attachment disorder / hangup stuff. But being right about the absence of ASD in a smart, complicated dc really does takes an expert. And it matters cos narcissistic traits alone are likely to be managed differently than when they occur ASD or PDA, or whatever else.

hiddenhome Sun 25-Nov-12 13:52:33

<sigh> I'm no further forward am I? sad

God, this just keeps going on and on round in circles.

Why the hell can't I get to see a paed?

I will take a look at that link mariammma

hiddenhome Sun 25-Nov-12 13:56:12

Okay, have looked and she's based in Newcastle, that's very good. Will see about being referred, but doubt they will do it whilst I'm seeing this CAMHS bloke confused

I'm going to ring the school nurse tomorrow to ask why I'm seeing a psychologist instead of a paed. Perhaps the doctor attached to the school nursing service could refer me?

I really do feel like I'm caught up in some Kafkaesque nightmare here. I'm really feeling on shaky ground and that someone/thing is delibrately thwarting my attempts to get help and I don't know why sad

Thank you to everyone who's listening to me and suggesting ways of accessing help. I really do appreciate it.

Ineedalife Sun 25-Nov-12 14:10:55

God hidden he really does sound like my Dd1.

Dd1 is seriously opinionated and truely believes that her view is the only one that matters.

In fact due to poor Theory of mind, she doesnt even realise that other people have an opinionhmm

hiddenhome Sun 25-Nov-12 14:33:15

sad about your dd1

ArthurPewty Sun 25-Nov-12 14:47:18

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ArthurPewty Sun 25-Nov-12 14:47:44

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hiddenhome Sun 25-Nov-12 15:25:41

The GP only ever refers us to CAMHS. This is what I mean, we keep going round in circles.

What age was your husband diagnosed Leonie? I have a bad feeling that this is going to drag on for years and then when he's a lot older it'll all come out and I'll be sitting there rocking in the corner jibbering "I did try, I did try" confused This is so draining for us and, in the meantime, ds isn't receiving any help. What will happen to him if he doesn't receive the proper help? We support and supervise him as best we can, but what is the prognosis in the medium term if he does have ASD?

And, who are all these people who do receive a proper assessment? Who the heck do you have to sleep with or bribe in order for this to be done? I really don't know what to say to these people for them to take us seriously.

Ineedalife Sun 25-Nov-12 15:34:43

I think my Dd1 has self diagnosed, whether she will ever get a formal Dx I dont know.

We went round in circles with Dd1 from age 4-9 and then I gave up, having been told it was my parenting that was causing the problemsad

With Dd3 we went round in circles from 5.5 until 9 when the DISCO was done and ASD was diagnosed.

Dd3 is not as mercenary[sp] as Dd3, she has alot more sensory and co ordination issues so I suppose ultimately she was easier to diagnose.

The thing which helped us most was the diary TBH, it finally made proffs sit up and listen, when they realised what we were trying to manage on a daily basis.

We were also lucky that there was an ASD friendly MH nurse at CAMHS who referred us on to a psychiatrist who had been trained to do the DISCO.

Sorry hidden not really much help. Would Nottingham be accessible for you?
Google the Lorna Wing Centre.

ArthurPewty Sun 25-Nov-12 17:15:43

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hiddenhome Sun 25-Nov-12 18:28:03

What made him go to the doctor about it Leonie? How easy was the process for his assessment?

imaginingitornot Sun 25-Nov-12 22:54:55

What about the speech therapy route? Doesn't tread on Camhs toes, and depending who you see, sometimes they're autism experts. Also ask school if he can go on educational psychologist waiting list (will take forever but worth trying)

ArthurPewty Mon 26-Nov-12 07:06:48

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ArthurPewty Mon 26-Nov-12 07:07:23

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