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Ok, another question about DD2

(53 Posts)
Lougle Sun 18-Nov-12 13:38:13

I noticed today, that DD2 doesn't seem to use language as I expect. I <as ever> don't know what is normal.

She has a tummy bug. She can't even keep water down, so food is out of the question. She doesn't want food, but was anxious about it.

She said 'Mum, why can't I have the thing that you and Daddy and DD1 and DD3 are having?' I replied 'do you mean food?' and she said 'yes'.

Why didn't she just say 'food' or 'something to eat'? Why did she list each of our names, and call the food 'the thing that you are having'?

Is that what a 5 year old normally does?

I know that DD3 (3.7) would just say 'why can't I have something to eat?' In fact, so would DD1.

There's something I can't put my finger on, but it just sounds so...formal but wrong.

rainbowinthesky Sun 18-Nov-12 13:41:55

No idea of the background or what it is but you are right. It is an unusual way to phrase things.

sannaville Sun 18-Nov-12 13:45:20

My dd1 is a bit like this, she has dx of ADHD. She would say" that thing that you and Dh and dd2 had last night off the red plate and dd2 left some of it, and some sauce went on the table and u.gave the leftovers to dog, well can I have that one day?" She exhausts me. Every convo is a huge round in the circle type of response and god help me if I'm not nodding in the right places! My dd is 8

lisad123 Sun 18-Nov-12 13:49:56

Dd2 does this. She is 5 and has a dx of Asd. The salt said its word finding issues. sad

Ineedalife Sun 18-Nov-12 13:50:01

Dd3 does this and I didnt realise until she was tested by a SALT, she showed her a picture of some cutlery and asked what they were. Dd3 said "You eat with them"

I have no idea why but she quite often goes a very round about way of saying things. I wondered if it is related to her poor organisation, with Dd3 it is global, her body is disorganised, her thoughts are disorganised so I suppose it follows that her speech would be too.

If Dd3 is telling me about something that has happened she gets frustrated sometimes because she will remember something that happened earlier in the story. She isnt able to just slot in the new information, she has to start the whole story again. I dont know if this is related too.

Sorry no help as usualwink

Ineedalife Sun 18-Nov-12 13:51:30

Yes lisad I think that is what the SALT said about Dd3 too.

sannaville Sun 18-Nov-12 13:52:49

No one has ever mentioned it about my dd1 and she's never had salt, but she does love to talksmile word finding issues would fit probably as lisad said

Word finding difficulties, consistent with a Dx of ASD (although can also occur without).

Lougle Sun 18-Nov-12 16:06:55

Ok, thanks, so that needs to go on my list,doesn't it? <is it normal to only notice these things when all goes pear shaped, I wonder?>

Ineedalife Sun 18-Nov-12 17:11:03

I think it is because you are concious that your Dd is struggling in some areas. You are obviously a good parent who is trying to find out why.

I have found that when I look really hard at Dd3 she has many difficulties. She already has a dx of ASD which I had to fight for but I am not sure if these processing difficulties need flagging up too.

I think you notice more when something is not quite right because it jumps out at you that it is not quite right.

Be kind to yourself, am honking and flapping like mad for yousmile

Lougle Sun 18-Nov-12 17:32:09

Thank you, Ineed, I think 'I need' honks smile

She seems to have stopped vomiting now, and we are watching Matilda. Again.

claw4 Sun 18-Nov-12 19:23:18

Ds was like this when younger, pre-dx, i thought he was very descriptive blush and didnt even realise until later, that he didnt actually know the name of something, so would describe what it did instead.

Even very simple everyday things, like a washing machine - you put your clothes in to get them clean. A kettle - it makes water hot. A light switch - that turns the light on.

In fact i just asked him to name the things we put in the candle holder on the table and he said 'lights'

Lougle Sun 18-Nov-12 19:28:27

That's the odd thing. I held up a fork, she told me it was a fork. She could tell me it was metal...she knows what things are. It just seems to be that when she's talking freely, she goes all around the houses.

lisad123 Sun 18-Nov-12 19:33:12

Dd does this often. She knows the words of objects but sometimes they just fall out of her head.

claw4 Sun 18-Nov-12 20:08:03

Have you tried some other objects, i think ds would have been able to name a fork, but not things that he wouldnt use, so things that are there everyday, but he never uses, like washing machine, kettle, radiator, oven, iron that kind of thing

sannaville Sun 18-Nov-12 20:41:35

My dd will also randomly start conversations in the middle so I actually have no idea what she's on about! A favourite of hers is "you know that thing we saw!" In fact I'm sure 'thing' is her favourite word!!! I will mention it on parents evening and see what her teachers say.
Telling her to stop and think what she needs to say works a bit RE her goog round the houses!

Lougle Sun 18-Nov-12 20:45:25

No, I didn't, claw.

Sannaville - DD2 is exactly like that. She'll say 'so I came downstairs and put my shoes on and by the time I got there it was over.' I spend the next few minutes trying to unpick:

a) why was she upstairs?
b) why were her shoes off?
c) where was it she was getting to?
d) what was over?
e) why wasn't she there in the first place

Then, she gets mad at me for not knowing it all.

I get so exhausted by it all. I have DD1 who is several years behind in development. DD2 who seems to be developing atypically, then DD3 who is doing things that the development charts say she should be able to do in 18 months' time.

sannaville Sun 18-Nov-12 20:51:48

smile got to smile at that my dd comes out with veryyyyy similar things! In fact today she said " when you were having a wee the other day what was it you said to me?" Omg firstly I couldn't remember what wee she was referring to or what I said! She couldn't tell me what it was about but apparently she found it funy and wanted me to say it again! She got veryyyy angry because I couldn't remember! She spoke at a fairly early age and no one has ever mentioned her speech to me but she does talk at people rather than to them but we were told that's part of ADHD dx. As she's 8.5 now the gap is widening with how she speaks compared to her peers

Ineedalife Sun 18-Nov-12 21:51:37

The starting sentences in the middle can be due to poor theory of mind, children literally think you are thinking the same as them, they are not aware that peoples thoughts are different.

A SALT can test theory of mind quite easily, Dd3's was not yet developed at 8 and I dont think it is much better now.

It causes problems with empathy too because dc's genuinely dont understand how other people are feeling.

Allonsy Sun 18-Nov-12 22:04:09

My ds talks abit like that as well but there would of been lots of its not fairs! thrown into too NOBODY can eat unless he can. He does tend to name everyone too, often uses peoples first and last names and still call his 1 year old brother the 'baby' rather than his name. He also starts EVERY sentance with guess what? even tho i cant possibly know!

I did the sally anne test with him months ago though and he got it so theory of mind obviously ok.

Ineedalife Sun 18-Nov-12 22:12:47

Lol@ Guess what...

Dd3 does that all the timegrin

Lougle Mon 19-Nov-12 12:37:23

A couple from today:

"Patch (that's the dog, btw) can have tuna because it is strong for him!"

I couldn't work out whether that was meant to be that tuna makes Patch strong, or if she was using 'strong' where 'good' would normally be used.

"What is making all that pieces of noises?"

I was playing a wordament on the computer, and the noise was the swipe of the letters.

DameMargotFountain Mon 19-Nov-12 12:41:34

Lougle

DD often says things like 'the night we are just going to have, not like the one we had on the day before this one'

she is DX ASD too

Lougle Mon 19-Nov-12 12:59:36

I'm going to keep talking note of these things, so that if I ever manage to get a paed to show interest, they might refer to SALT.

Badvocsanta Mon 19-Nov-12 13:56:50

I would class that as word finding problems Lougle.

claw4 Mon 19-Nov-12 16:23:33

Lougle you could ask HV or school nurse for a referral to SALT

ArthurPewty Mon 19-Nov-12 16:50:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArthurPewty Mon 19-Nov-12 16:52:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lougle Mon 19-Nov-12 19:35:35

Leonie, DD2 does that a lot. 'On the day that wasn't Wednesday but after Thursday....'

She knows the days of the week (they all do, because our routine is Monday -carer 1, Tuesday carer 2, Weds DD1 at Kids, Thurs Homestart, Fri - no-one) it's when she uses them conversationally that it all gets muddled.

Claw, that's a thought. Perhaps they would do it.

She says 'this is too spicy for me', referring to lemon. She knows what 'sour' is and what 'bitter' is. But anything that doesn't taste nice she calls 'spicy'.

ArthurPewty Mon 19-Nov-12 19:39:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ineedalife Mon 19-Nov-12 19:50:44

Dd3 says spicy too, except about mints which she says are "too uurrrmm minty"grin

Dd3 struggled with his/hers, him/her, he/she too.

She has worked it out now but it took along time.

She struggles to tell me what is bothering her and will often just wave or flap at me until I work it out.

sannaville Mon 19-Nov-12 19:54:03

Dd doesn't say him/her he/she she says boy did it or girl did it

bdaonion Tue 20-Nov-12 00:22:26

My DD (SLI) has word retrieval issues and it used to be quite a challenge trying to work out what she was trying to communicate when she was younger. Petit Filous yogurts will always be forever referred to as 'pink with a bone' in our house. She was describing the packaging, but it took me a quite a while (and one frustrated child) to work that one out!

She attends a school with a SALT unit and they have taught her to make associations with words such as what does it do, what does it feel like etc. At 6 she is able to recognise that she is struggling to find the word and will say something like "what's that thing that is...." which helps.

On the plus side, she is going to kick butt at Taboo when she is older...

bdaonion Tue 20-Nov-12 00:40:57

Re: the fork example, DD will use it by name quite correctly most of the time, but then randomly refer to it 'as a stick with a 'w' on the end that you use to eat.'. She knows the words but it is like the connection drops mid-sentence sometimes.

justaboutchilledout Tue 20-Nov-12 00:56:46

The starting sentences in the middle can be due to poor theory of mind, children literally think you are thinking the same as them, they are not aware that peoples thoughts are different.

This, yes, exactly, we have had all sorts of trouble with that with DS1. Word-finding problems I don't know much about.

Lougle Tue 20-Nov-12 09:51:44

"You're trying to get this house as clean as any house at all."

Me to ds: 'what was the dance called that you did in PE at school?'

DS 'I don't know. I really can't remember. I don't know what the animal is'.

(turns out they did the birdie dance).

Lougle Tue 20-Nov-12 10:06:04

Ahh Star smile it just shows that these details are like junctions in rail tracks for our children. If the tracks don't line up, the train stops!

EscapeInTheCity Tue 20-Nov-12 10:11:53

Oh dear, something else where I can completely relate too.

ds2 is like this. Will start a sentence without giving context and is expecting me to know what he is talking about....
Yesterday and tomorrow still aren't clear. It's always 'the day before today' or 'the day after'.

He is also totally unable to tell me what has happened during the day or what he enjoyed most. Do you think this is also related to a lack of theory of mind?

Handywoman Tue 20-Nov-12 10:16:16

^A couple from today:

"Patch (that's the dog, btw) can have tuna because it is strong for him!"

I couldn't work out whether that was meant to be that tuna makes Patch strong, or if she was using 'strong' where 'good' would normally be used.

"What is making all that pieces of noises?"

I was playing a wordament on the computer, and the noise was the swipe of the letters.^

Oh my goodness, Lougle your dd's language is exactly like my dd's. Aged 4 she would have said -e-x-a-c-t-l-y- these things. And she had a severe delay in receptive and expressive language. She is now aged 7 and speaks in an odd way. However, her receptive/expressive language skills and ability to use grammar etc. are now normal/advanced following intensive private SaLT. Except that her rigidity of thinking makes her use language in a strange way. So that it is difficult to see what is at the core of it. And I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the older they get, the clearer it becomes as to what is behind it.

For example, dd who will be 8 in March, said, last night. "Guess what I had for pudding at lunchtime, Mum" (which incidentally is rather amazing since she is rarely able to report experiences at school and share them with me). She went on to describe a chocolate sponge with sprinkles on the top. My reply was: "that sounds nice". To which she corrects me: "No, mummy you need to say it looks nice, because a chocolate pudding doesn't make any sounds, it doesn't bark like a dog or anything....."

What I am trying to say is it can either be the nuts-and-bolts of language, or a core deficit in social imagination/cognitive empathy. Or a core deficit in social imagination which is making it hard for her to pick up language in the normal way. Huge, huge, huge overlap. Write all of these down word for word and take them to your SaLT.

HW xx

Handywoman Tue 20-Nov-12 10:24:12

I have just read further on (doh, keep forgetting to go to the end of the thread!!)

She says 'this is too spicy for me', referring to lemon. She knows what 'sour' is and what 'bitter' is. But anything that doesn't taste nice she calls 'spicy'.

Exactly this. In fact age 7 she still uses the word 'spicy'.

Lougle Tue 20-Nov-12 12:42:35

Handywoman, that's really interesting too. Perhaps it could be a language issue that is making her anxious and seemingly with ASD features?

Now that she is physically better, she wants to return to school (can't until tomorrow - 48 hour rule), but when I say 'oh so you're not worried about <all the things she has mentioned in the last two weeks>' she says 'yes, I am worried about that.' It seems that her illness allowed her worries to be expressed.

Now she's well again, she's not mentioning it unless I ask her to talk about it. If I do ask, she can't tell me why it worries her. She just says 'it's different and I'm a ' all the same' girl.'

Ineedalife Tue 20-Nov-12 14:43:52

I love her description lougle

She is really clever to be able to put it into words, it could be the unpredictability of the school day which is stressing her.

Teachers are notorious for changing things round or making sudden desisions which could be based on the behaviour of the children but that many of the children know nothing about.

Eg. Doing singing at story time, because its xmas. Missing PE because half the class didnt get changed quick enough.

Many [not all] teachers would not even think how distressing thses things can be for children who like things to be "All the same"

bialystockandbloom Tue 20-Nov-12 15:37:48

Ds does this too (ASD), will describe things absolutely literally if he can't find the word or remember a name Eg "the child who was about [so] high and was eight years old"

I think it can be a generalising problem too - if I ask him what he had for lunch and he doesn't know the name of something, instead of generalising meat/vegetables/ he'll describe it literally. We still haven't worked out what the "peach coloured thing" was that wasn't sweet, wasn't savoury, wasn't spicy, and definitely wasn't a peach grin

Also says "last time" when he means any other time other than right now (yesterday, last week, once, the other day etc).

Handywoman Tue 20-Nov-12 21:50:46

I love her description, Lougle. It's beautiful. I wish I had written down more of dd's phrases, they can reveal so succinctly how they interpret their world. Either that or you haven't the foggiest what they are talking about!

I wish I had written down more of my daughter's unusual phrases over the years.

hw x

Lougle Wed 21-Nov-12 07:09:38

"Mum, my breath it's out from going to school"
Is today's offering.

I reckon our kids would have been poets in another lifetime.

Either that or Yoda. Both fine with me.

Lougle Wed 21-Nov-12 10:23:13

Yes smile

Ineedalife Wed 21-Nov-12 11:46:49

LOL@yoda star

Lougle Fri 23-Nov-12 07:31:58

"DD2, what did you do at play time?"

" I picked up some sticks that had two or three layers and I gived them to some friends I can see who I can invite to my party if you say."

mariammma Fri 23-Nov-12 10:43:37

Chinese and sign languages

would probably suit our dc better. A much clearer, more logical sentence layout really....

neverputasockinatoaster Fri 23-Nov-12 14:02:15

Just found this.

DS is 8 and has a really roundabout way of speaking. He expects me to know what he istalking about and insists on giving me sooooo much detail - everything is given its full name - he is currently obsessed with Lego batman but it must be called Lego batman DC Avengers (or whatever it is....). If he gets interrupted or loses his train of thought he has to start all over again. He has a DX of ASD.

DD is 5. She still gets pronouns muddled and we have real problems with days of the week, yesterday and tomorrow. Tomorrow is the day after this day. She has no DX but I am beginning to wonder...... especially with all the sensory issues that we get bombarded with! (I was practically weeping with relief that today was non uniform day as it meant she could wear her trainers and thus no socks rather than her 'hurty' shoes and socks that 'annoy my feet'

Lougle Fri 30-Nov-12 20:15:06

Today, she said 'solid means ice, doesn't it?' I explained that ice is solid, but not everything that is solid is made of ice.

I took her for a walk to the shops earlier today. It's cold. She said, when we got back:

'I am so shopping tired and all that twisting and turning, I'm boy oh boy oh tired!'

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