Oh no it's not a problem! <waves at person in question>. It's a good thing. It just means I (i)can't fabricate details of my life without namechanging or (ii) post any details about marital problems!!!

ouch, I can see how that is a problem. I have been worrying about this somewhat too, I know some mums in the village who I am not really friends with know who I am on MN.

Oh, and the fact that one of us has turned out to be someone DH knows in real life makes it a little harder for him to look down loftily IYSWIM.

Back in February DH was pretty worried about my mumsnetting but has come round to it and listens intently to distilled versions of the conversations about Greenspan etc.

oh lingle I so know what you mean. Been there, done that. DH really is not keen on me using MN because its a time waster and I've been so upset in the past. Hope that hasnt happened with you recently?

I am so tired and have a migraine. But DH loves his present!!! Wont be around much today as we are doing bday things but I am sitting still to let the migraine pass atm.

Ah yes, the supportive feeling on mumsnet. It's very nice until you accidentally upset someone on the board and have to explain to your husband that your are in floods of tears because your post on an anonymous forum has been misinterpreted.

re the pressie. Cor, that is impressive.

wow you have worked hard where you find the time to write and record a book id like to know

im glad you and ds had nice time today just remember to come down bit harder when it comes to hitting he will love and respect you for it

ds is ay clingy stage again keeps wanting to sleep in my bed but his having to go straight to bed on the little bed next to my bed as he wants to be with me i thought i lost you when i went to the loo lol

maybe try and separate soon of the night time so his in same room as you but not in bed with you so he isn't as dependant on you 24/7 its so wearing i really struggle with it and was advised to get him out of my bed to start separating can be in same room just not stuck to me

its hard as you get used to and kind of want them there but its better for them to know they can stay in same room just not snuggled up with you ds has night time separation anxiety but copes really well now

not trying to be bossy or tell you what to do lol but this was the age i was told its best to start ready for when they start school they are bit more independent and so are we

again well done for all your hard work you ahve done you sound such a thoughtful caring person make time to do something for you soon xx

as i said before if i was nearer i would drag you out for drinks have a few glasses of wine

Strange DS says the exact same thing. He says "I lost you Mama!" and tonight he was in TO crying "I love you Mama! I lost you Mama!"

In his sleep a few nights ago (in my bed) he had a night terror & he was talking but not awake and he said "Mama Mama where are you, you have to touch my skin Mama" poor baby.

Thank you all so so so much for talking to me so brilliantly today. I felt like a total ogre and you have made me see I am not and reaffirmed for me that I am a truly fantastic mother

I am shattered now. I have been working non stop since 3:30, firstly on a piece for my Indy blog on Bertrand Russell - I finished it! It's up! Two of my pieces are at the moment linked to on the Independent homepage! And then a couple of hours working on DH's birthday pressie which I can say here because he knows not to check, is me reading aloud a book & recording it on MP3 format so he can listen to it as he hasnt got time to read but he wants to read this book which is not available on audio format. So I am really self congratulatory right now, with the writing, the homepage, the reading, and the comfort from you lot!

Oh and for the record DS has been lovely to me today and we are as close as ever. He did say when he got home from school after I apologised to him once more, "its ok Mama I havent got a red mark on my hand anymore" which makes it sound terrible but really it is just his attention to detail it was red for a minute. Still I did feel mean.

breaks your heart doesn't it but i know i have to be strong for his own good

he does it at night as well oh mummy i thought id lost you bless him

bubblagirl - my DD1 says that exact phrase "I lost my mummy"!

Guilty as charged! I've slapped a hand or two in my time and a bottom if truth be know (will I now get arrested?)

HIDTL, give yourself and break and a round of applause. You are a star mummy who does nothign but think of your DS and his welfare etc. But you are also YOU, and as OPs have said you do not deserve to be hit/punched/hurt in anyway by anyone. He does need to learn that his behaviour is unacceptable and as others have said, it's not easy but is for his own good. If he starts hitting and lashing out at other children they will not sympathise and ignore it they will (generally at this age) retaliate.

DS1 had his best meltdowns when given time out. He knew which buttons to push and would go absolutely mental. I use to ignore him and put him back on the step if he moved. We still have the odd moment, but now I tend to get 'mummy I'm really sorry. I want to apologise' but I still don't let him off until his time is up.

It's actually a wonderful thing to realise that your child has the ability to manipulate you. Now all you've got to do is show him that you are in charge and you decide what is acceptable behaviour.

BR

if it helps when ds was 3 he was mummy boy i would do anything possible to not see him upset wasn't consistent and then someone said to me routine is what they need and yur not being consistent your confusing him one minute its not ok then you don't react and he thinks it is ok this was just as frustrating to him

took me 2 weeks and i wanted to give in many times im glad i didnt

i moved him away from me no hitting moved him into hall away from me walked away if he came near me wouldn't look or respond for x amount of time 3 mins this was more upsetting to him he didnt have my attention because he hit me

i said say sorry for hitting me then he could come back in if he said no he stayed there he came in one day and said im sorry and we cuddled and kissed and is aid its not nice to hit mummy and continued playing he hit me again off he went

now no hitting he'll try but he sees my face and this upsets him its ok its ok he says as he doesnt want me to move him away

im pleased i did it it was hard i doubted myself felt awful im upsetting my baby my buddy but it did him good he knows its not acceptable now

doesn't mean your doing a bad job at all we have trial and error many times on trying to combat behaviour him being away from me was the most affective as he is glue to me but he realised if he was horrible he couldn't come near me, stopped it after 2 weeks but was a lot easier after 1 week it became less but was still learnt behaviour so still did this as first reaction and then now he doesnt

dont feel bad for upsetting him you arent damaging him your teaching him thats what we do all behaviour is learnt

bubbla boy would scream ive lost mummy broke my heart but i knew i was doing right for his own sake

as i said before you are a good mum but for your own well being as well as his you do have to give comfort when needing it and be consistent for bad behaviour otherwise his rewarded for being bad iyswim

but its a trying time i found 3 a hard age he was testing the boundaries and i let him get away with too much but it can still be worked on he doesnt love me any less if anything we are much closer for it as he respects and we enjoy our time now he gets alot more attention as its all positive we still have days but i feel strong enough to deal with them

now we could try starting a "sign in if you've never smacked a hand" thread hereIdraw, but I'm not sure we'd find too many people to sign in!!!

Don't beat yourself up honey! You are only human , a little smack on his hand will soon be forgotten. You sound as if you are doing a terrific job and you seem to have a lot more patience than ...me!

You remove ds from the situation he is hitting in, without speaking. Then you hold him just so he can't wriggle away. Then when he starts to complain/struggle to break free, that's when you say NO HITTING. The aim is that he works out that hitting=loss of freedom and stops. It won't work overnight because nothing will. And he will probably try to test you by escalating the bahaviour at first. But maybe worth a try for a week or so.

I had a very similar moment a few weeks ago when we were desperately late for pre-school, and both ds' were playing up and we just couldn't seem to get out of the door. I totally lost it with ds after he took his shoes off and threw them at me, striking me in the face for about the 4th time, and felt terrible afterwards. When you're stressed and then they do something which actually hurts you, it is very hard to suppress the anger that momentarily surges up (and I'm a very patient person normally.)

Please don't give yourself a hard time, we all do the absolute best we can with children who can often be frustrating and demanding, through no fault of their own or ours. I now calm ds through holding him tightly and speaking slowly and calmly, or by removing him from the situation. I've realised that any kind of angry reaction from me makes him 100 times worse.

I hope you are feeling a bit better. Make sure you take as much time as you can for yourself, I've started running, which has done wonders weight wise and stress wise..

"It is really hard, but I think you might have to accept that some of his behaviour might be down to his ability to manipulate you as much as it is to any sensory or other issues he may have."

Very true, but that doesn't mean that you haven't been a great mum . It is just difficult with children who don't respond to 'conventional' parenting techniques.

I was having the same discussion with our portage outreach worker yesterday. DD is throwing a lot lately. She said "Well of course, because whether you want to or not, it will get a rise out of you because you have to protect the other children!"

So, DD1 has worked out that there are some things I can't ignore, so that's what she does.

HIDTL just out of interest how does he separate from you for preschool? Happily or is it always a battle? Presumably at some point he will be increasing the number of days he does there, which might help give him a bit more independence and you a bit more space...could he say do 3 or 4 or even 5 mornings there from September?

I am not sure on the restraining thing other than to say don't get yourself too hung up about worrying you are hurting him. You can be firm without being rough. I'm sure he will be sobbing and screaming and all the rest of it - probably because he's learnt to get the response he wants that way. It is really hard, but I think you might have to accept that some of his behaviour might be down to his ability to manipulate you as much as it is to any sensory or other issues he may have.

I have a 2 min sand timer I could give to him.

With the holding technique you hold facing away from you and say a firm NO HITTING then dont say anything else... til when? Sorry if I missed it before, I will reread the thread because there have been so many good suggestions here. And is that even if he is struggling and screaming and I am worrying I am hurting him just by restraining him?

You're right r3dh3d we are in a bit of a vicious circle in that he and I are so inseparable. It is lovely that we are so bonded but makes it very very hard for me to go along with things I know is really upsetting for him.

Oh you poor thing. I think you've got caught in a bit of a trap, really - because he is fixated with you, you feel you have to be always there for him ... but that sort of reinforces in his mind that you ought to be there for him, because you think it's terribly important, so it must be true. So it goes on. Does that make sense?

I think I'd abandon TO and look for a better "consequence" tbh. TO works well on NT kids, but relies on them understanding all sorts of things - value for parental attention, meaning of time, abandonment v punishment, etc. etc. DD1 would never understand any of that. TO would be utterly wasted on her.

With DD1, we do a sort of "holding" too. She bites from time to time - doesn't realise it is wrong, doesn't comprehend pain in others. Everyone else says "ow!" and then "poor dear, she doesn't understand". I immediately sit her on the floor facing the wall and hold her till she gets bored and screechy. DH thinks it's "cruel" because it's not her fault ... but she bites him, and she doesn't bite me . You have to find the consequence for your LO which deters without hurting/distressing. I've heard of people using showers or hairwashing. Maybe staying in the same room but completely ignoring him would work?

TKMaxx have TO mats in for £5

TO is very difficult with asd children. Try theholding technique I mentioned with no talking and see if that helps.

HIDTL, if you want to do time out (iirc, your ds does respond to having attention/affection withdrawn) have you tried getting him a timer so he can see how long he is going to be there?

there is a time out mat that is marketed, but probably £££ and opnly useful for this one thing. but there are plenty of visual timers you can get, which would also be useful for other things (whenever waiting is needed, for eg) will try to find some links a bit later, but cooking lunch atm.

don't beat yourself up, you are doing the best you can.

you are right lou. I know you arent being harsh. In my defence on the TO rescuing scenario he does not know he is supposed to be there for 2 mins. We have said that number once or twice before but he does not listen. To him it is just there until he isnt there if that makes sense. And I know in my mind that needs to be 2 mins and its normally 1.5. But obviously writing out that way I can see that is a shit way of doing TO. I will say hands up I do not know how to discipline him. I speak to him, and explain to him, and scold him, or ignore him if needed but if he doesnt respond to those things I do not have a back up plan. Which is becoming readily evident. He seems to just freak out totally in TO. So I dont really know what else to do if the more constructive forms of discipline dont work. I do all the "preventative" tactics I can think of and am advised to do but he is a loose cannon despite my hardest work.

Right am off to the school run now!

HIDTL, your DS is almost 3 years old. He is not a baby. He needs to know that there is a line, and he just crossed it. DD1 kicked me in the eye on Tuesday, and I impulsively smacked her. She howled and I regretted it immensely, but although the smack wasn't the best thing to do, she still needs to know that kicking me is NOT ON.

"Every time he goes in time out he cries and cries for Mama kitten to rescue him and I try to wait it out a bit but usually he gets so distressed within a minute I go in around 1 minute into the 2 minute time out and rescue him from the tree because he is in such a panic."

He isn't in a tree! You aren't rescuing him from the tree, you are stopping his timeout.

IMHO, you need to either do TO and reassure him firmly that he is quite safe but must stay in TO for 2 minutes, or you say "this isn't working" and don't use TO.

But giving in and 'rescuing' him half way through timeout is just confusing and inconsistent. Every time something happens that he doesn't like he will be able to cry that he needs mama cat to rescue him, because he knows it will work.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but you are so emotionally vested in your DS. Sometimes being a mother requires us to do things that our children don't like, for their own good.

lol @ naked mning.
Hope he is ok. I'm sure he will be.

just wanted to say quickly - thank you for the suggestions. I am about to go put my clothes on (have been naked MNing) and collect DS from school. I feel refreshed and am looking forward to seeing him. Just pray he hasnt told his teachers I hit him and that he doesnt talk about nothing else for the rest of the day!

Do not torture yourself - you are human - your child really hurt you- you had the presence of mind to only hit the back of his hand. Children have to learn parents have limits in endurance especially when hurt. ( Pain will make see red too) Perhaps you both need a quick apology to each followed by TO now ( ds hates mummy having TO!) This gives you a chance to recover and avoids the piyfall of over apologising.
( I fell whilst carrying a screaming ds once when he bit my nose causing me to trip (and fall) - I nearly fell on him and had to push him out the way, he was astonished - he has not bitten my nose since! I still feel guilty because I should not have allowed the bite to distract my step IYSWIM!)

Oh I'm sorry love. I've smacked hands too. Adn I'm supermummy [hmmm]. Ring the paed's secretary to follow up perhaps.

One smack on the hand doesn't change the course of a child's life one iota.

By the way is he more of a visual person? If DS2 is being slow getting dressed I find it helpful to place the item of clothing directly in front of his eyes - between his eyes and the thing he was looking at before.

I'm using this technique for aggression at the moment, might or might not help your ds.

When ds is aggressive, you hold him but with no talking and no eye contact. you are removing his freedom. When he starts to squirm,you say 'No hitting'. And then release him to play.
The aim is that he learns that if he is aggressive he loses his freedom. But you musn't speak as this just feeds the behaviour.
It is having some success with ds.

well I've been a bit tearful reading these posts because they are so kind and sweet but also I feel a lot better now. I still have a sad feeling in my chest but tbh I am really exhausted and just want to sleep for a while.

I do snap at DS and have a cross tone of voice with him fairly regularly. Like when he wont help me dress him at all if I am in a bad mood or really stressed I would say "oh come on DS you are almost 3 you can lift your leg up" which probably isnt the right kind of annoyance to show but I do show it. But I am always without fail his to give love to and cuddle and kisses and all the things he needs from me like that. Every time he goes in time out he cries and cries for Mama kitten to rescue him and I try to wait it out a bit but usually he gets so distressed within a minute I go in around 1 minute into the 2 minute time out and rescue him from the tree because he is in such a panic. I worry for him because he seems so emotionally vulnerable so I try not to add to that.

please don't feel guilty we have all at some time i would think be guilty of doing this i know i have after having had just enough but i never did it again and i learnt form it ds never hated me and our closeness is still there but i do punish smacking i will remove him from me whenever he does it into hall this is enough for him to come say sorry as hates being away from me i will not tolerate hitting

your patience can only withstand so much you are only human after all do not beat yourself up over this it was a one off you wont do it again

repeat after me I AM ONLY HUMAN, I AM A GOOD MUM , not anyone could deal with this day in and day out

i would say also if you can try and combat this hitting maybe you need to be slightly firmer remove him from you so he doesn't get chance to hit again let him see your not happy then maybe he will finally stop doing it as it will become unacceptable

i know easier said than done but ds doesn't hit me any more he may have a day where he goes to but he doesn't i give him my look he runs off crying its ok its ok

You know what, there are times when it is actually quite good for your child to witness you 'losing it'. Did you ever watch programmes like Little Angels or House of Tiny Tearaways? I can vividly remember one of the psychologists telling a parent (who was scared to talk to their child in anything other than deeply loving tones) that they should not be afraid of expressing emotions around their children, because observing how an adult both suffered and coped with such emotions was a valuable part of their learning. The reasoning being that if you never show your child that you do get cross (i.e. angry expression, raising voice etc) but can work your way through that emotion, they never learn to do it themselves. Taking care and forgiving and making OK is wonderful...but it also means you are at severe risk of being taken advantage of, and you are not teaching your DS the realities of life either.

I am asking this in the nicest possible way....but do you think you are too soft and loving and sweetness and light and 'mummy makes everything wonderful' with your little one? As 5inthebed said, NO-ONE should accept that their DC hits them regardless of age/impairments/mood etc. You are not his punchbag, either physically or emotionally. He's got to learn that no matter what issues he has.

I have had times with DS when I have seriously lost it, shouted etc, I have smacked his hand when he once deliberately ran away from me and I lost him for 5 minutes and yes I have felt horrible, but sometimes they need to learn that they have pushed you beyond limit. For us, as horrible as it's been at the time, the fallout from these kind of situations has invariably been positive: we talk about why it happened and why mummy got cross and yes mummy shouldn't have shouted/hit but also DS shouldn't have done x y or z etc etc and sometimes grownups do things they shouldn't do as well and so on and so on. So what I've ended up doing is showing him that actually 'losing it' is part of the human condition, but it's how you work your way through that, calm down again, apologise and learn from it that is the most important thing.

Please please try not to beat yourself up...you are a lovely mummy doing a wonderful job...you just perhaps need to try being a little less lovely from time to time.

thanks mummysaurus

I think in some way I am a screwed up individual because I cant see the wood for the trees. I feel really kind of under siege in many areas of my life and I dont know what to do or what is really happening. So its hard to judge if I am too hard on myself, or not hard enough etc. I wish I had someone in RL who could really really help who I could trust to see things as they are. As it is I just dont know what to do sometimes because I am stretched so thin. And I am by no means perfect, I mean I get in a bad mood, and I worry I am too hard on DH and DS so I dont know. I do worry it is all my fault. God I sound so whiney!!! Sorry. I really dont like how I must sound here. In RL I am a happy, laughing person who keeps everything in control. I think its all got the better of me right now.

I dont want to involve GP or HV they just wind me up so much. And I have to decide if I follow up that email to the pead from my other thread or dont because maybe I am not thinking clearly and will say the wrong thing.

HIDTL - even the sweetest, calmest people can lose it sometimes and you sound lovely but so so hard on yourself.

I've read a few of your posts and it seems to me that you blame yourself (wrongly) for your ds behaviour. This may lead you to over compensate and feel unable to attempt correct this behaviour

I agree you do need to show your feelings. He may be picking up on them anyway and pushing you to test the boundaries. Of course hitting is wrong but you showing that you are cross or at least removing yourself from his reach are still loving responses.

It sounds as if you really need some support - have you talked to your family/gp. You have a lot on your plate and I'm not surprised you get upset.

hope you have a better afternoon.

thanks You are making me feel a little better. There isnt really anyone I can leave him with but I am going to start going swimming to help me lose weight so that will be an hour a week to myself. He'll be with DH then.

It won't stick in his mind, don't worry. It will all be forgotten about.

Is there anyone you could leave him with so you can have a few more hours off a week?

You're only human, HIDTL. Not only are you being hit on a daily basis, you're also getting through it all on very little sleep IIRC. Be kind to yourself. xx

thanks. I know you understand but I just feel so bad. He trusts me so much and we are so close its wonderful. And I fear this will stick in his mind like the spider and I will never get it out of him again.

oops!

HIDTL, I just want to reach through this monitor and give you a good shake! Stop being so hard on yourself woman! You are not a bad parent, you are just at the end of your tether.

Nobody should be getting hit by their DC, regardless of their age/disability/mood. Nobody is going to judge you because you slapped theback of his hand. I bet it wasn't even that hard. He was probably more shocked than hurt that you retaliated rather than just took it.

Maybe you need to show this side (obviously not smacking) more, show him you are cross or upset when he is smacking you, rather than making it all sweetness and light hearted.

morning, please dont feel guilty about the smack of the hand. I too get severley bashed by my 4.5 year old son and last week i wanted to show him how much he hurt me, so i stupidly tapped (and i mean really just a tap) his arm. He became absolutely hysterical, the tears were unbelievable, he was totally and utterly shocked that i had him. When he calmed down i explained that perhaps he could see how much he hurt me now when hes throwing things at me or hitting, kicking etc, but he really didnt understand

Ive now pulled my son out of preschool because of all the upset/refusing to get out of the car/ screaming etc and in this last 2weeks ive seen his behaviour become less aggressive and the meltdowns less severe. I know he HAS to go to school in September as it will be law, but i am dreading the fall out from it.

Anyway you did well only lashing out today, youve held yourself together up till now and you under an enormous amount of stress, and this heat doesnt help

morning, please dont feel guilty about the smack of the hand. I too get severley bashed by my 4.5 year old son and last week i wanted to show him how much he hurt me, so i stupidly tapped (and i mean really just a tap) his arm. He became absolutely hysterical, the tears were unbelievable, he was totally and utterly shocked that i had him. When he calmed down i explained that perhaps he could see how much he hurt me now when hes throwing things at me or hitting, kicking etc, but he really didnt understand

Ive now pulled my son out of preschool because of all the upset/refusing to get out of the car/ screaming etc and in this last 2weeks ive seen his behaviour become less aggressive and the meltdowns less severe. I know he HAS to go to school in September as it will be law, but i am dreading the fall out from it.

Anyway you did well only lashing out today, youve held yourself together up till now and you under an enormous amount of stress, and this heat doesnt help

well DS is at school now so I am sitting around trying not to cry. Going to go make food I am hungry. I just cant forgive myself I cant believe I smacked him. We can separate to cool off but not really when we are pressed for time to get somewhere really important, and it would be spiting us both to have kept him home from school. So I didnt take the time to calm us down.

Oh Hereidrawtheline, I dont know how to answer your post but didnt want to leave you unanswered. We all have days when we reach the end of our patience. Do you get respite at all? DO you have any sort of space where your Ds can chill for a bit when he gets wound up? Actually ditto for you is htere anywhere you can go where you can get away and Ds is safe?

is anyone around I really need to talk

I am just so beyond gutted right now. This morning was typically bad getting DS ready for school, having to comb his hair etc. I got him to let me make the comb super wet and this in the end worked. Then dressing him I was getting annoyed because he was just totally not helping at all, not lifting a leg or arm or whatever. Then he did a poo and wouldnt let me wipe his bottom, running away screaming at me. It was just awful but normal awful.

Then I asked him to bring me his shoes. He totally ignored me. I asked him again in a sharper voice I was really annoyed by this time because the whole morning he had been making everything as difficult as it could possibly be. I shouted not to throw his shoes at me and pulled him over to me - too hard. I know he doesnt like to be pulled so I never do but I just wasnt behaving as I normally do.

Then he started punching me in the face, in the nose and on my glasses so I restrained him and said "do not hit me in the face DS! No hitting!" and he started screaming I was hurting him in the restraint which to be fair to me I dont think I was holding him hard but he is of course very sensitive to touch. So I let go and he punched me again in the eye and I just lost it I grabbed his hand and smacked the back of it.

I have never hit or smacked or anything to him before. And I really never thought I would. But I did. I smacked my own baby's hand and I just cant believe it. He was totally shocked and started really crying saying I hurt him etc and I held him and said sorry a lot and explained I had lost my temper because he hits me so much! Every day I get hit at least a dozen times, yesterday I was hit with a stick, he throws things at me. And I always respond with kindness and love I never let DH "punish" him for it because normally his own hyper sensitive guilt is enough and a time out or I ignore him for 5 mins or whatever. I love him. I always try to act 100% lovingly towards him. And I smacked him I am so angry.

How do I undo this? For one thing I have lost my normal higher ground "dont hit mama, mama doesnt hit you, does she?" for another he is going to latch on to this and make it into one of his huge things!

I'm going to call NAS and ask for advice.

Then we finally got out the door and DH had collapsed the bloody new Zapp and I dont know how to open it yet, yes I know I probably sound really stupid but I am terribly un-coordinated and not good at fiddly things so I was getting in a temper trying to open it up and phoned DH up shouting at him.

I think I am truly at my wits end. I dont mean to be sounding pitiful but I am the major giver in this family, I take care, I forgive, I make ok. And I think it has taken its toll on me. I am so ashamed of myself.