PECS and minimally verbal children

[cyberseraphim]

I know this has been discussed before but the one thing I have missed is how it actually works.

My DS1 (ASD) has a fairly large one word vocabulary, 2-3 word phrases and even some mini sentences. 'I don't like that', 'I don't know' How is PECS used to extend this ? I know that if the child is completely non verbal, the emphasis is on handing over a card with say a picture of an apple. But if the child can say 'want apple' what do you do with PECS to extend this

[aefondkiss]

hello cyberseraphim, I am going on a pecs course in May, so I can't help you but I am interested, my ds is nearly 4 and I am hoping the pecs will help his language develop more, he sounds similar to your ds re language ability...

bump.

[silverfrog]

That's something I'd like to know too.

dd1 has quite an extensive noun vocab, and a whole load of echolalic learnt phrases that she can use appropriately (although she also uses them randomly) eg "let's go home and have some lunch", "time to go upstairs", etc.

She can also ask for what she wants, so a typical conversation would be:

dd: would you like a biscuit?
me: what do you say?
dd: biscuit please, mummy get it ready
[hand over biscuit]
dd: thankyou (usually needs prompting)

she can do the above exchange for anyhting she wants, so stories, toys etc, as well as for food/drink.

so, if someone who knows about PECS comes along, would it be worth persevering (have had a couple of abortive attempts previously, as dd usually ends up looking at us scathingly and asking perfectly for whatever we're trying to get her to do an exchange for...)

[yurt1]

Using some sort of support (doesn't have to be PECS, sign is good too- in some ways better) appears to extend sentence length and make children 'more' verbal. PECS is based around requesting (I want) and commenting (I see). We're very much stuck in that language pattern at the moment so someone like moondog can probably give you better advice for your situation.

Some children/adult who are minimally verbal use typing as well to increase what they can say (sometimes they can say a lot using typing and next to nothing verbally). I think it;s about accessing different modalities for communication and of course 60+%ish of children with autism are very visual.

[silverfrog]

thanks, yurt.

I agree that a strong element of visual support is good (dd's preschool now have sequence strips up everywhere) and we are beginning to do the same at home. ('tis a nightmare though, as dd1 loves "flipping" the cards, so can never find the ones I want as she's made off with them. Or dd2 has eaten them )

May try with signing - have always dismissed as unsuitable for dd1 as she has difficulty using her hands, but dd2 would enjoy it, i think so worht a go.

Typing/reading I like the sound of, and we are slowly introducing letter/numbers to dd1 (she's only 3).

I wish I could help dd1 expand, and take the next big leap (don't we all?) - it seems as htough she has been stuck in this pattern for ages. All her (very limited) SALT advice centres around PECS, but as dd1 doesn't see the point of it, that's not very helpful!

I wonder what used to be advised pre-PECS?

[yurt1]

"'tis a nightmare though, as dd1 loves "flipping" the cards, so can never find the ones I want as she's made off with them. Or dd2 has eaten them"

I sympathise!

pre-PECS people still used symbols and boards but there was less emphasis on exchange and more on pointing.

You could take a look at the StrangeSon website - there's a forum there where people have video of teaching their non-verbal/minimally verbal child to communicate. One of the regulars has a child who has quite a lot of speech but is using type/literacy to extend that. It might be interesting for you to see.

[silverfrog]

thanks, will have a look in a minute.

dd1 has quite a lot of speech (in that she is rarely quiet) but other than single word labelling (pointing out or finding htings in a picture dictionary or on symbol cards) there is not a lot of meaning that goes on...

so, she can spend all day quoting the whole of the Gruffalo (or a million other books) - word perfect, but she hasn't got a clue what is actually going on.

SALT have signed her off until school age, btw, as she is verbal (which would appear to mean "can copy noises accurately" rather than "can communicate effectively")

[pagwatch]

silverfrog
My DS2 is just the same. It is actually fabulously clever of him to match his obbssesion with films, Dvds' etc to find rote phrases that he then tries to apply in context to help me understand what he wants. they do become entrenched with him so my thing is to just be very positve in responding to him and adding a slight variation on what he has said. So he used to say " water big" to ask for a drink. We would reply with "ok a drink for paglet" or some similar varation. Terribly slowly he has expanded these options and can now say " I want a water big please" or some such. So baby steps really but just a gradual extension.
Does that make sense
( when I am talking about DS being very limited verbally i always seem to be really incoherent

[cyberseraphim]

My DS does have some useful speech , he has never copied or parrotted. Recently he has started to answer questions (simple ones!) and has worked out for himself how to use the I pronoun. 'Do you want to go to X, Cyberlet?' 'Okay I go' or 'I go see garden' if he wants to go out. I am not anti PECS or saying that I fear it is a step 'backwards' (His new SALT suggested PECS) but I am genuinely lacking in understanding as to how PECS will move things on. I am not in denial about how serious his language problems are but I don't want him to be seen as a child who will never talk.

[yurt1]

signed her off???

Is she like George in George and Sam?

[Homsa]

cyberseraphim, your DS sounds a lot like mine about 18 months ago - very little echolalia, some single words and a few 2-word sentences he would generate himself. They tried to "introduce" him to PECS at the SN nursery he went to (yeah right after we had been using PECS at home with him for a year, but not "properly" according to them). We took him out of there after 2 months and started an ABA programme. The ABA consultant was genuinely puzzled when I told her that they wanted him to use PECS, she couldn't understand why you would want to do that with a child whose spoken language is just taking off. We concentrated on verbal requests instead, and have never looked back. DS now speaks in 5-to-10-word sentences, uses pronouns, tenses, etc.. I do believe using PECS would have held him back.

[silverfrog]

Thanks, pagwatch, that does make sense. I try to do the variation of set phrases/routins as well, and it does sometimes work, but it also sometimes throws dd into a panic, as she is not getting the right response... still, she has only been verbal for 18 months (said nothing at all, really until she was 2.4ish, then jumped straight in - and hasn't shut up since [head explodes at the memory of reading Maisy's paddling pool nonstop all day long for months, so that dd could supply "oh dear!" at the right point]

cyberseraphim - that's brilliant that your ds has worked out "I". Dd1 is still very much at the repetition stage, so still copies whatever I say ("would you like a green drink?" "would you like mummy to read it?", etc)

yurt - haven't read George and Sam, so don't know (gets pathetically excited that maybe there is a book I can read which describes dd1). Don't get me started on the SALT. When dd1 was 2.9 we had an assessment. Dd was talking as she is now (not as extensively, but the same pattern aspect). SALT told us that she didn't really work with under 3s. No problem, we thought - an annoying delay, but only 3 months. dd turned 3, we heard nothing. When dd was 3.4 we had a team around the child meeting - SALT tried to slope off and not attend, but was dragged back in ( - love my portage worker!). After a very heated exchange, she admitted that actually she specialises in under 3s, and so as dd was now over 3 she couldn't help us. And that as dd was essentially verbal, there was no more help we could get form SALT until school age (and she meant statutory school age, not school attendance, so another 18 months still to go).

[cyberseraphim]

That is my concern but I don't want to cause trouble at an early stage - We did try PECS with no success when he was younger, there was something about it that he just did not get. He is very strong willed so I really don't think anyone will get him handing over a card. He does speak less at nursery than at home so they may not be aware that he can say more than single words. He is still on a waiting list to start PECS but I haven't met the SALT yet to discuss. I feel a bit annoyed that she has decided this without consulting us.

[cyberseraphim]

I loved George and Sam, although the first time I read it, I thought that DS1 can't be ASD because he is nothing like either of them. However reading it the second time, I read more into what the underlying condition is and I started to see that he had the condition but just not G and S symptoms.

[yurt1]

silverfrog- would recommend George and Sam. George can produce reams of parrotted speech- but it shouws how he developed that over the year so it became in context then quite useful.

[moondog]

It is a challenge to move children on from PECS i think, or to develop more speech in those who don't see the point of using PECS as they already have speech.

As a salt halfway through an MSc in ABA, I'm beginning to feel these kids need a more aggressive and structured approach than SALT which can be a bit wishy-washy.

I'm very interested in the concept of Direct Instruction, which makes use of a highly scripted format to teach language. Yurt,have you more experince of this practically? We were looking this week at a set called 'Language for Learning' which i was very impressed with.

The downer is that the teacher has to learn the script like an actor learning his lines.

[yurt1]

Nope- no knowledge at all moondog. It sounds as if it would be ahead of ds1, but interesting nonetheless.

Davros- same problem. Which is why we're (attempting) to move onto typing (not FC at all now). I think I've found someone (very good credentials) who has been doing this with children like ours.

[moondog]

A bit on Direct Instruction and if you look down the list of resources,you will see link for Language for learning

[pagwatch]

ditto again silverfrog
Paglet boy gets very upset if i say "OK" instead of "of course" - so I tend to find myself brilliantly saying OK all the time .
poor child - why'd he get me ?

[TotalChaos]

PECs has been very very useful in extending DS's sentence length. before PECs we would have the odd 3 word sentence - doll kick ball etc, and a parrotted "havva more juice" that probably caused more problems than it solved! After a week of PECs DS "clicked" with the "I want" construction - which developed from "I want pizza" to "I want mummy (to) run on grass", which has springboarded to generally improve DS's sentence length overall. I still sometimes get the PECs book out to help jog DS's memory if he's struggling to retrieve words. DS is I think a very visual learner - of course not all kids with ASD/speech delays/disorders are, so I think PECs is particularly suited to him.

[TotalChaos]

Moondog - will have a look at the "scripting" links, sounds interesting. have just ordered the new Hanen book "Talkability" which seems to be focussed at verbal kids with ASD to help with social conversation.

Yurt - Marion Blank has also written a book of conversation scripts for kids with language problems. I haven't been able to see an extract on line, so didn't want to risk ordering it if it ended up way above DS's level. Don't think it was that dear though - think it was under £20.

[yurt1]

Oh has she? Thanks. I'll ask her! I know she has a means by which she teaches language to children as severely affected as ds1, although god only knows how.

[TotalChaos]

here

www.amazon.co.uk/Directing-Discourse-Situations-Meaningful-Conversation/dp/0884502171/ref=sr_1_14?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 =UTF8&s=books&qid=1208976718&sr=8-14

[yurt1]

Ah- that looks as if that would be too high a level for ds1, but thanks. I'll ask her about it as well. She's worked on a few things in the past.