All those runnin ABA programmes

[staryeyed]

We had a first assessment today for ABA. Feel really weird about it. Was not as I was expecting and now I dont know what to think.

It wasnt very structured and Ds found it very frustrating. I now have mixed feelings. Can some of you share your experiences of ABA start up with me so I can compare and see if Im being silly or not.

[yurt1]

Oh god I wish I could send you video of our first session. I can send you video of current sessions if any use.

Are you using a provider? We just started with a tutor initially. We started with table work as ds1 had to learn attention. It was structured for small bursts then a break to try and teach play skills, then back to the table etc.

What happened in yours?

[mamadadawahwah]

staryed, i am no lover of ABA (been there doen that for 2 years to no effect) but that is just us and my boy.

However, what I learned and to give you my 20/20 hindsight, ASK QUESTIONS and point out anything you feel uncomfortable with. a good provider will explain the theory ( or as they say science) behind what they are doing.

you are his first and foremost teacher and its you that has to learn the technique, reasoning, etc before anyone else does.

I know some parents (those with money) who have left it all to the provider/tutors and have not actually worked with their child during a session. 2ndly, you get providers who say you, as a parent will be a "distraction" in the session, which is a load of crap of course.

Please try to figure out exactly why each trial is being done and what the expected outcome is, and what it is supposed to lead to.

Also, remember that each child is different. ABA, lovaas and VB were of no use to my son in the early years. He worked completely to his own agenda and I will save you the horror stories we went through with providers and their "methods".

as mommy, step in when you are uncomfortable and ask. a good provider will welcome your questions and will want you to be fully trained up and knowledgeable.

my 2cents

[yurt1]

Growing Minds are good to talk to if you want to look at a variety of methods. I tend to think that different children need different things, and the same child might need different things at different times. It is very useful to understand ABA though- even if you have to tweak it a bit.

[aquariusmum]

I have done ABA for two years, well actually we use Verbal Behaviour, not strictly ABA/ They started with some basic imitations - eg do this, clap hands, and then moved on to more complex imitations and eventually sounds and speech. I think it's great. Very happy to chat it all through if you want to speak over weekend or I am child-free 530 today - 07809486616

[staryeyed]

It wasn't bad exactly. It just seemed a bit too unstructured, Like "lets do this" "now lets do this" really quickly with no real definition between the activities iyswim. My Ds really seemed to like her when she first came He didnt dislike her but he was quite anxious today. She asked me what I was thinking because my face gives me away sometimes. I was thinking "does she need to be that confrontational with him?" but I have nothing to compare to so thought maybe I was being silly. Are the sessions supposed to be so challenging? My Ds was never =really distressed but was quite anxious and clearly uncomfortable with her at some points.

Electra I wouldn't say I'm unhappy just a bit confused. I am often accused of expecting toomuch maybe I just thought it should run more structured and smoothly.

Aquariusmum -Thank you for your offer. I find it difficult to use the phone without ds hanging off my legs and screaming. If I do get some time I will call, thank you.

Thanks for your offer Yurt I have seen sessions on the internet so I know what they look like when they are running but what should the assessment look like.

God I hope she doesnt come on here. But she is a senior supervisor working with an organisation that has been recommended to me. There was no mention of reinforcers she was just using praise which my Ds does respond to but not consistently.

She explained herself by saying its different with every child and she was seeing how much interaction he would accept.

[Homsa]

Hi staryeyed, my DS has been on an ABA programme with PEACH for 14 months, and we've been extremely pleased with his progress.

I would think that an initial assessment will be quite different from a therapy session. Your supervisor was probably trying to determine your DS's level with regard to some basic programmes, like imitation, following instructions, expressive/receptive labels etc. Also if your DS has issues with changes in routine, order etc. then she would need to challenge him to see how he reacts and how long it takes him to get over it.

However, I would have expected her to talk to you about your DS's preferred activities/items and draw up a list of reinforcers. When our supervisor did the initial assessment, she brought a bag full of spinning, light-up gadgets which my DS loved!

[staryeyed]

That's what I was expecting Homsa - to draw up a list and to have some good toy resources. Maybe she will do that next session. I dont know ,it all seems a bit disorganised.

[sphil]

We have been doing an ABA/VB programme with Growing Minds for 8 months with DS2 (5). Their advice was that work with a child should always start with 'pairing': ie. the tutor pairs her/himself with reinforcers so that the child sees her/him in a positive light and becomes more relaxed around this new person. This is the very first thing that is done, before anything at all is demanded of the child. Then, any assessment that is done is more likely to be a true reflection of what the child can do, rather than reflecting their anxiety or lack of trust in an unfamiliar adult.

Growing Minds is different though - they are based in the US, so all initial assessment is done through paper work and video. I guess different providers work in different ways.

[Davros]

Hi Staryeyed, email me if you want as I would love to know who you are using and could hopefully give you some advice on that. Did you go and see anyone else's program? There is one person who works in our area who is supposedly marvellous but is crap (initials SK)!

[Davros]

Just thought, I'm not familiar with an assessment pre-workshop but it is so long since we started our former program that I can't remember. I would think an initial meeting with Supervisor and maybe COnsultant to get info on potential reinforcers, meet child and family, view setting etc would make sense. Will there be a proper workshop? That was quite formal in its format but the 1:1 work was always as much fun as possible.

[nightcat]

sorry to barge in, but I thought it might be worth mentioning..
I have read a book recently (P Stacey - Boy who loved windows) in which the mum covers a fair bit of ground working with her autistic son and later her daughter. One of the concepts she uses is "floor time" - which I think corresponds to ABA. She also presents various observations from the professionals she dealt with, but what struck me most is that she stresses that for it to work well, there needs to be an element of emotional relationship between the child and who-ever the child works with, which kind-of reinforces what MMDDWW said earlier. I also liked the way she connects various observations to neurology.

[staryeyed]

Davros will mail you. Didnt see a programme. Just didnt get the time. Not using SC you already warned me I think.

Ive been really worrying about it. This is a bit personal but to put it into perspective; Im using all the money I have on this programme and if it doesn't go right there is no more money to start again. I couldnt sleep properly thinking about what was bothering me about the session yesterday. There was quite a few things

1- I told her that my ds is unable to imitate therefor no use for makaton. She insisted on using the signs herself (which is fine) but making him do the sign as well for finished at a point he was already getting upset.

2-There was no pairing activity and it didnt seem much fun for my Ds. It seemed to be about how much she could join his activities which I didnt really get.

3-There is no set up workshop which I find odd. She is working alone to do the assessments and then when the (experienced) tutors are recruited she will just do a lot of supervision at he beginning.

Im so confused this wasnt what I was expecting at all. I feel way out of my depth. I have read books, talked to parents and researched and none of this matches what I was thinking. But different organisations use different techniques.

[yurt1]

I'd be a bit concerned. Is she ABA or VB (VB can be very into signing- which is fine-but only when appropriate). As you say you are paying- therefore i'd ask her to explain what and why she is doing. Do try to sit in on sessions elsewhere if at all possible. Supervision sessions I have seen (we don't do supervision) include things like everyone doing an activity together or taking it in turns after the supervisor has demonstrated.

[Davros]

Floortime is the method developed by Stanley Greenspan which certainly has is merits but NO evidence of effectiveness. From what I know, there is certainly no harm in Floortime but I doubt if it would do much good alone. Maybe WITH ABA it could work, but it would not be advisable to introduce both at the same time. I would see Floortime as more of a supported way for parents to behave with their children with ASD.
Staryeyed, got your email and will reply. Surprised that you are not sure about the people you mentioned as I have only ever heard good things but...... that doesn't necessarily mean anything does it? If they are providing/introducing tutors who are experienced then no start-up workshop could make sense and it may be one way they can save you money. It would have been useful for you though. Are you having team meetings? Although I avoided them at first I got forced to go and it was definitely good for me and really helped me sooooo much. I would say it took me over a year of running an intensive program to really understand any of it.
I think that many practitioners, especially ABA, would not just accept that your DS CANNOT imitate, this is one of the first things they would work on teaching him - matching and imitation are the fundamentals. So I wouldn't stand in the way of Makaton if there is a clear program to teach imitation and make sure they don't stand in the way of other communication methods such as PECs. Over the years I have met sooooo many people, professionals and parents, who have such prejudice against one method or the other (signs or picture/symbols) and I think they are very wrong. My DS uses both as we had no prejudice against either system and I can honestly say it was one of the best things we did. Neither way is better than the other, they can be totally complementary.
Anyway, droning on here. I think you haven't had a good start, what with her turning up late and being flustered which is all very unprofessional but these things happen, as long as it isn't her usual way of carrying on. You are bound to be anxious, don't expect it to always look like FUN to you, especially at the beginning, as they do need to present challenges as well as reinforcement to children who have often not been challenged but accomodated. I am surprised at the reliance on social reinforcment, that is something I would question straight away.

[yurt1]

Really want to agree with Davros there- I've come across prejudice against both PECS and signing- when I met Davros' ds and saw him using both I was really impressed. Once ds1 learned to imitate he picked up signing quickly and, like Davros' ds he now uses both. We're trying to introduce some pointing to letterboards as well- the more options a child has available the better I think - they then have more chance of being able to communicate successfully at a given moment.

[staryeyed]

Thanks Davros I am going to see what next session is like and see how I feel after.

I have no problem with using both I just dont think he will take with signing because he can not imitate (well only at very early stages). Once my Ds can imitate consistently I think sign will be very good. I have been using some signs with Ds for ages with his but he just doesn't pick them up.

It wasn't so much the getting him to sign that bothered me it was the context it was done in. He was trying to pull away but she insisted on signing "finished" to him and that he had to sign "finished" as well before she let him go. I thought it was unnecessary. To be honest my instinct was to grab him from her.

Will definitely be asking loads of questions next session. I needed to sound out with you guys to see if I was just expecting too much.

Thanks for all your input It has helped alot.

[yurt1]

How did she make him sign finished if he can't imitate- was she trying to do it hand over hand? - I can see your concern tbh. When ds1 was in mainstream they confused 'physically prompt' with 'physically force' and it caused a lot of problems - and to my mind bordered on abusive.

[sphil]

There is a 'rule' in discrete trial work that the tutor must always signal the end of the session and not the child. So she may have just been following that principle. Imo it would have been unnecessary if she'd done some pairing activities with him first - then he would have been more likely to WANT to work with her. Listen to me, the big expert .

We signed with DS2 for absolutely ages before he learnt to do the signs himself. He's still not great at doing them himself - occasional and approximate! But it did do wonders for his receptive language, and still does.

I really hope you get your questions answered and feel happier with the next session.

[staryeyed]

Yes yurt it was hand over hand.

I did understand that she would want to finish session on her terms but I just didn't see why Ds had to sign it too when he clearly doesn't get sign yet.

[yurt1]

hmmm - I do think forced hand over hand has to be done very carefully- certainly the way it was done in ds1's school bordered on abusive. I would tell them that aspect made you uncomfortable. If hand over hadn is guiding I think its fine, if it's forcing I think its dubious.

[yurt1]

let me clarify- ds1's mainstream school- NOT the one he's in now!

[staryeyed]

I would say it was forcing because he did not want to do it nor did he have an idea why he was doing it that's why he wanted to get away.

I will definitely tell her that I wasnt happy with the signing stuff and question the lack of pairing and reinforcers. Until next session I feel I should give her a chance because she may have been having a bad day or something. However if its bad again after I have explained my position I may have to call it quits and start again with someone else.

[aquariusmum]

My tutors certainly made the session fun - he absolutely loved them and the games they played, which were teaching him things like "clap hands" but in a fun way. Then they would give him a burst of play/pairing, so "work" would only last a couple of minutes. That said, I think he did kick against them trying to make him do anything at some stages during the early times, as he had never before really not done exactly what he wanted to do all day long. So it's bound to be a bit of a shock at first, but I agree with other posters that pairing is key, so the person herself becomes someone he actively wants to see and "play" with (eg learn through play). My tutors and supervisor were really big on teaching him to talk through play - eg one of his first words was "push" when he was on his beloved swing. Don't worry about ringing with a child hanging off your legs Staryeyed, I too will have one on my lap and hanging off me !!! He had a a 30 minute tantrum when I left him with DH today so I know how you feel!