Cannot believe this insensitve MNetter posted this!

[spokette]

Just been scanning through threads and came across this thread. The post by Belladonna79 at Tue 18-Dec-07 19:21:16 left me speechless.

"Haven't read all the posts but the reason I have chosen a competitive some might say elitist prep (not Habs or NLCS - we live too far away) is because I don't want MY child's education disrupppted by 'adhd' or 'dyslexic' children. I know its awful to say this but I want my children in a classroom where I know the teacher(s) won't be spending 90% off the time asking other kids to sit still. Its wrong that any children have to deal with this but if I don't look out for my children who will?"

1. I have an autistic brother and an autistic nephew who is a mainstream primary school with an excellent SN unit and I am so thankful that he will never have to contend with abhorrent, misguided people like this at his school.

1. I have been looking at schools (state) recently for my DTS and all of the ones I have visited (4 in total) have special units to cater for children with SN. During my visit to the school that I placed as my number one choice, a boy with SN was in the reception class with the other children and the whole class was working diligently in their groups. There was the main reception teacher, the TA and the SN teacher who sat next to the little boy whilst he worked in his group. That type of inclusiveness is one of the reasons why this school is my first choice.

1. Anybody who thinks that it is only children with SN that are disruptive in class are seriously deluded and will be in for a nasty shock because 9 times out of 10, it is the off-spring of these insenstive, unempthatic, smug idiots who are usually the trouble makers since they can do no wrong!

[bullet123]

Just read it .

[claricebeansmumhasnomincepies]

Hmmm...

DD is dyslexic but is currently top of her year for English - spelling is weak but her comprehension and vocabulary use are way out in front of peers. Oh yes, this is also a selective independent London day school . She has won competitions for her poetry etc

IME it's boys who can't sit still for a minute

I'd be looking out for Belladonna's DC and keeping clear of them

[staryeyed]

Would I be wrong to say what a bunch of poncey trouts on that thread and what a very sad attitude bella has. Her attitude is so pathetic its almost laughable and I hope my children never have the misfortune of being in a school with children who have such a snobby bitch of a mother.

[merryCHRISTIEmas]

Let's just hope that all the little darlings at the "elitist prep" that Belladoona's children go to are perfectly behaved.

Sadly, the assumption that SN = bad behaviour simply demonstrates ignorance.

I teach children with severe and complex learning difficulties and have very high expectations of behaviour.
I don't expect my students to disrupt the lessons and, most of the time , they don't.

Incidentally, in October Ofsted rated our school as "Outstanding"

[critterjitter]

I think this is a very difficult subject.

There are difficult kids in classes both with and without special needs. I've come across as many 'gifted and talented' classroom disrupters, as I have kids with special educational needs (which is a very broad term). However, I would say that the G&T 'disrupter' kids will tend to try to disrupt the class in a more subtle, underhand way e.g. continuously questioning literally every word you use.

At the same time, I can recall having to spend an entire lesson trying to placate a kid with ADHD who had decided to stand on his chair, run in and out of the classroom, throw a pile of paper up in the air (in the middle of the classrooom), and then run around the school. During this time, you are reliant on the 29 other kids getting on with their work and not being distracted by whats going on (including other children being sent out to get assistance from a 'spare' teacher, visits by SMT, forms that have to be completed by me on the spot to transfer him to another room etc.). If I were the parents of the other 29, I would be unhappy.

[dgeorgea]

Amazing

I can't bring myself to reply to her, but personally I would want to thank her.

My daughters education has been constantly disrupted by the behaviour non sen students. In her first year at secondary the art teacher wasn't even bothering to teach because of the class behaviour. It was the sen student who complained to her parents and her parents who did something about it.

She has been constantly bullied by non sen students, chased home by 'normal' girls shouting at her she should be burnt to death because she is a witch and devil worshipper!

She got a D in French two years early, would have done better but was assaulted by some 'normal' boys the day before her written exam and didn't go in because she still had a 'headache' and was afraid.

The last thing she needs is peers of bigotted parents like her teaching their kids how much superior they are over sen kids and to stick their noses up.

So if she wants to waste her money paying for a school where she percieves the sen children have babysitters to watch over them then I'm all for her using her right to choose to keep her kids away from mine.

Personally I'm fed up with sen students being the escape goat for all the problems in schools when their effects are no where near as devestating as the 'normal' kids and their parents.

My daughters science class was recently given some homework to do, write about gravity. She produced 5 pages, covering historical theory, the main thinkers who have shaped theories on gravity, and the main schools of thinking in modern science. The rest if they managed two paragraphs were above average for the class. This is where we see the main difference, our sen daughter is prepared to work hard and put in the effort, because I know there is no way we would have put something that good together. But she also knows she has the support of her parents.

[marzipanonice]

Just read Belladonna's post and as a mother of a child with SN was disgusted.

So here perfect children sit still all the time do they?

As she says "if I don't look out for my children who will?"

Belladonna-so if you are that concerned why not teach them at home,no disruptions there?

I would be more worried about her children growing up to be less tolerent of others and having an ignorant approach to people with SN.

critterjitter-how awful that you had to deal with a child with ADHD.
Thank god my son is not in your class.
I would like think that teachers (and I know some do as have witnessed this with my DS )go into teaching with a passion and love children no matter what SN or NT and want to see those children progress and guide them as best they can.
And if I was the 1 parent out of the 30 in the class with the child with ADHD,I would be unhappy that this was your view and wondering if you were suitable to be teaching my son with that attitude.

You also say " the G&T classroom disrupters use a more subtle ,underhand way of disrupting the classroom".
Being smart arses you mean.

I also find the way you have labelled the 2 groups as gifted and talented and kids with SEN as appalling.

Let me tell you all children are "gifted and talented " in there own way whether SN or NT and to imply that SN children are not and put them in another catagory is precisley the sort of ignorance I come across daily .

[dgeorgea]

marzipanonice,

While there was a lot on the thread I disagreed with critterjitter did not seperate the class between two groups, sen and gifted and tallented. Gifted and Tallented is another defined group within education. Like sen students they can have a modified program and encouragement to join certain clubs the school may run.

Nor are the two groups exclusive of each other. My daughter is on both the SEN register and Gifted and Talented register.

And to be fair, all critterjitter was pointing out is that while much of the disruption caused by sen students tend to be open and obvious to all those caused by the most able students are often not so obvious or noticeable.

Nothing critterjitter said suggested to me she doesn't care about our kids. The bottom line is, and I do include my daughter, is that when our children are disruptive it does have a big impact on the classroom, and the teaching.

If as parents we get deffensive with every teacher who wants to point this out then we are doing them and our children a disservice.

I will also add fuel to the fire here, I used to love hearing parents discussing in the playground how difficult they were finding their child's behaviour one moment and when the teacher came out to speak to them would not accept what they were told, or for some reason think teachers should be able to manage their child's behaviour with another 20 odd children around when they couldn't on a one to one basis as the parent.

If parents got their head out of the sand and worked with the teachers instead of getting defensive and not hearing what is actually said then perhaps some of our kids will be doing a lot better.

[PoinsettiaBouquets]

Um, she'd still get bullying and attention-seeking disruptions - the kind of behaviour that is more common amongst non-SEN kids! There will always be children who act out their unhappiness or are ignored or written off by their parents.

[coppertop]

The good thing that came out of the other thread was the large number of people who posted to say that it was a load of rubbish, including parents of NT children.

[marzipanonice]

dgeorgea- I appreiciate what you are saying and can see a different point of view re critterjitter's post.

In my experience I certainly am not the type of parent to bury my head in the sand,in fact I made and still do a complete nuisance of myself as far as the school was concerned to get my DS the right help and support he deserves.
It has been a long fight with school governers,headmistress,LEA,to get my sons case across and we have fianally got a statement in place.
Initially the headmistress went againest all the reports from professionals as to what was best for DS and took a lot of phone calls and letter writing on my behalf to turn it around.
Also if the teachers worked with the parents and listened to what they said then our children might be getting the support they need,it works both ways.
After all parents involvement and knowledge of there own children is invaluable.

My DS is not disruptive in class and that is not me being biased.
My DS has selective mutism and does not talk in school at all.
So from my point of view I had a different battle on my hands,that of the little boy who was no trouble at the back of the classroom but still needed that support and help and not to be forgotten.

As for the teachers
having to deal with this,well is'nt that what they get paid for?
I might be totally wrong here but my opinion is that the teachers should be looking into the reasons why a child is behaving this way,a SN or NT child and having the knowledge to deal with the situation.
In my DS's case not much is known about SM and I as a parent searched the web ,bought books etc to help me to undersatnd and help my son the best I could.
Surely schools have a duty to SN children to search out information how to best to deal with certain situations that arise.

In our last school meeting I had to point out a resource manual that has been written for schools and should be in schools dealing with SM.
The headmistress,school nurse and SENCO had never heard of this book and surely they must have had a child with SM in there school before.
I was totally gobsmacked!!!

[jinglebells2shoessmells]

have just had a good look at that thread. yikes what a bunch of snobs. no suprise that a certain person is on there.

[dgeorgea]

Hi Mmarzipanonice, my post was not aimed at you, or any other parent here. In general I find parents who use support forums are the ones who are happy to tackle their child's behaviour, as well the school.

I prefer to work with my daughters school, as we don't have a statement. But I have had the relationship go wrong and have been threatened with court action if I didn't retract a letter I sent to the school. I didn't back down. In the end it was taken up by someone else as the end of year report was a joke, plus they refused to pass on her paperwork to the new school.

So I'm not unused to having to take on teachers and schools.

As for the question on teachers my own views on this are mixed. Teachers are paid to teach and in general this is what they are trained to do. My personal feeling is that they do cope with an amazing range of challenging behaviour - not necessary disruptive.

Things for us are slightly different as my child is at secondary, however I do not think it is feasible or even desirable that teachers should be experts in dealing with every known condition. I think this is one area where inclusion has raised unrealitic expectations among parents.

I went to a special school, have worked with young people on a voluntary basis, been a parent/SEN governor and as a teaching assistant in special schools and have not come across a case of selective mutism. I would not be surprised if most schools and teachers have not come across a SM child.

My daughter was the first in her secondary school to be known or suspected to have Aspergers. I don't expect her teachers to be experts in autism, or even understand it. What I do expect is for the SENCO, SEN team and SMT to get in advice on how she can be helped and to provide guidance to her teachers. Where clear guidance has been given and the teacher fails to follow this I will kick the butts of these people, not the teacher.

In one case I even told the school I wanted my support for a teacher who did something they disagreed with to be noted. On another ocassion where I knew my daughter had played on her condition to get out of trouble I told the school.

But no, I don't think it is reasonable to expect someone who is in charge of up to 30 students to be able to cope with the more challenging and disruptive behaviours which some of our kids display. Plus if a parent is having a nightmare time coping with the childs behaviour in the family setting I do not think it is reasonable to expect an adult whose main role is to teach to get it right everytime, or to have all the answers. Especially where, as I have witnessed on plenty of occassions, the parents response is to immediately dismiss any of the responsibility on their child and assume it is the teacher.

That is not to dismiss the many parents who are like you and have to fight for everything for your child. But we do need to recognise both types of parent exist.

[critterjitter]

Its obviously disappointing that a couple of people have decided to misinterpret what I've written.

I focused on providing examples of behaviour that I've witnessed from both SEN and G&T kids, because Belladonna had been explaining why she wanted to have her children educated privately. She indicated that one of her main reasons was the teacher time taken up by some 'categories' of SEN kids - those with ADHD and Dyslexia. She appeared to be indicating that all would be well in a private school i.e. there wouldn't be classroom disruptions. I was taking issue with this assumption, because in my experience, G&T kids (who tend to be more prevalent in the private sector) can also be disruptive (I gave an example of this). I don't see the two 'categories' as being mutually exclusive, and haven't said that anywhere.

I do agree with dgeorga that sadly inclusion has raised, amongst some parents, unrealistic expectations of what schools can achieve for and with their child. For example, SEN training at teacher training establishments can frequently take the form of simply being presented with a flyer detailing a list of categories and a one liner explanation of each. Similarly, in house training on the subject (in a good school) might consist of an hour or so after school session every couple of years. However, teachers are presented with registers detailing an array of conditions for ever increasing numbers of the say 300 children that we may see per week.

Under these circumstances, teachers can often be very reliant on TAs attached to certain students to manage their individual needs and behaviour during lessons, whilst the teacher prepares individual work for them to complete alongside the TA.

Often these TAs go into each class with a particular child (so are with them the entire day rather than just for one lesson) and are seen as the first point of contact by the parents (if they are involved ones). However, where behaviour is an issue with that child or there is little support or input from home, its quite common to see a high turn over of TAs or significant absence levels from the TA - creating something of a vicious cycle. I have had two TAs point blank refuse to sit with their particular child during classes, however the child is still sent into the lesson.

In the case of the child that I referred to in my previous post, his mother had decided to take him off his medication for ADHD without informing the school. It took 3 days to get in touch with her (constant answerphone at home and not answering her mobile) despite her child attending school every day. So in addition to the teaching and learning time lost for both her child and the 29 others, his teachers, tutor and finally the Head, spent numerous hours attempting to make contact with her (in addition to completing copious amounts of paperwork to justify their every action).

Yes, teachers do go into teaching with a passion for teaching (and for their subject), and of course they are paid to teach. However, the current system doesn't allow them to do this.

Parents should be compelled to come and sit in on classes with their child for at least a day and see what actually goes on in schools.

[marzipanonice]

critterjitter- as I said in my later post can see a different point of view re your post.

As you can appreiciate it is an emotive subject and even more so for me having had a bad experience with my sons first 2 years in school.

It was a big shock to me when my DS was dx with SM and an on going situation for him to deal with everyday so just wanted to make sure he was getting all the support he deserves.

I suspose naively on my part I thought the school would have given any teacher who class my DS was put in to at least have had some backgrounfd knowledge given to them by the school of his condition,how else were they to understand it and move forward.
I appreiciate that they have other children in the class to deal with as well but all children have varying needs of sorts,SN or NT .

Fortunatly my DS has now got a statement so will have 1:1 support daily but this had to be fought for by myself and no doubt countless other parents on behalf of their children.
Examples of this are on mumsnet all the time.
Why should it be such a battle?

I understand that teachers can only go on what resources they have been given as do the TA's but in my experience and am not saying all ,information was given to the school on numerous occassions and I still found a total lack of understanding and dare I say ignorance over my sons condition.

As he entered year 2 his new teacher had obviously had no background to my sons SM as was obvious in the conversations that occurred.

I totally agree with you that parents should be made to sit in on a class with their child to see how it operates and give them not only an insight but to aid the teachers and work together on the solutions.
Some parents just want to leave them at the school gates and that's that.
Then when things go wrong blame the teachers instead of looking at themselves.
I totally agree with you that that happens and is so sad.

I go into school twice a week and do "sliding in "sessions with my DS to help build his confidence in talking in school.

An example of this was when my DS finished reception and was heading up to year 1 in the autumn only to be told 4 days before the summer holidays they wanted him to repeat reception year as they thought it would be best for him.
Even though countless professionals had told the school that this would be a bad idea and that he needed to stay with the peers he had been with the past year and that this could set him back and prove very traumatic.
Bearing in mind SM is all based around anxiety.

On further investigation I found out that 5 children were due to stay back and spoke to their mothers and all five had SN of some sort or the other!!!

To cut a long story short I was not happy with this due to my sons condtion and the advice I was getting so fought to get it changed which I did.

This has probably only served for me to be seen as an over protective ,highly strung mother in the schools eyes but so be it.
It was right for my son.

Sorry for the long rant,and hope I did'nt offend in any way.
As you can probably tell am very passionate about this as you would expect.

[critterjitter]

Marzipanonice
Some of the 'better' schools that I've been in, might have a file with a page on each child with SEN, giving a very brief overview of their situation ie. "Mark Brown, Aspergers", and perhaps one or two suggestions such as "sit at front of classroom" or "don't make direct eye contact." However, there is no detailed explanation of , for example, Aspergers, and the issues that the individual child may face.

The norm is to be presented with your registers asterixed with "SEN", "G&T", "Don't sit with Mark Brown" "Needs toilet frequently", "Might start crying", "Dad just died" etc etc. But because of the sheer scale of different needs, and the numbers of teachers taught each day, teachers are reliant on the TAs knowledge of an individual child (gained from being with them throughout the day) and the parents flagging up issues.

I agree with you in terms of keeping children back a year. I can't see any obvious benefits (other than financial for the school - class sizes etc). I wouldn't worry too much about being seen as over protective and highly strung. Its obvious you care about your child and are involved in his education (which is what schools are crying out for!). I'd also agree that the only way you can change things in schools is by fighting them. However, parents have remarkably better success at this than teachers!

[critterjitter]

correction: "pupils taught each day"

[AnneMayesR]

My kid is adhd/autistic and doing well at mainstream school in year 3. His teacher says that he is always well behaved and polite and he wishes he had a whole class of kids like mine. My DS is incredibly eccentric but also very quiet. He loves to sit by himself and do times tables. He is a happy kid.

My neurotypical perfectly normal dd on the other hand drives us (and her reception teacher) nuts!!

[dgeorgea]

Hi Critterjitter,

marzipanonice misunderstood what you had said and I was pointing out that the two were defined groups and you were not just dividing the student population between sen and G&T. I then pointed out that sen students can also be on the gifted and tallented program, emphasising that these are recognised groups and not an arbitary label you had decided to use. As you are a teacher I would assume you would be aware of this anyway.

Yes it is dissapointing when what you say is misrepresented, which is why I responded to the post. However as a communication medium forums are a minefield for this kind of misunderstanding.

Overall my experiences with schools and teachers have been possitive, with a few exceptions, and I have the greatest respect for the profession. Unfortunately I know there are a lot of parents whose experiences have not been so good. One friend was told by their childs school that even if she did get a diagnosis for her child they would ignore it as they did not believe the child had a problem. Then told my friend she should be more firm with the child about sitting still, flapping her arms, sudden screaming outbursts, refusing to look at people etc.

While it saddens me that some parents seem to see schools, teachers, LEA as a constant battlefield and view what is said by such people with deep suspicion, knowing the trash they have to put up with it doesn't surprise me.

Anyway, hope you enjoy the festive season.

[PeachyHasAFiggyPudInTheOven]

Should we win the lottery / I ever manage to get this blardy degree / MA completed btw the boys will go to the nearest preps- well ds1 and ds2 (Ds3 will get a private tutor full 1-1 within state)- ds1 will go to a local that has a good rep with AS, ds2 will go to the next nearest (best separated)

Haberdashers Monmouth

Guess which of my 2 is the least likely to sit still?

(clue: its not the one with SN!)

[PeachyHasAFiggyPudInTheOven]

The institution I am looking to train at now gives priority to those with an MA in SEN / ASD for admission to Teacher Training (they are so oversubscribed they can do this easily- they anticipate a future where nobody gets a place without post grad study.) If and when i eventually apply, I should have an MA in ASD or SEN (you can divert by module selection)

[lottiejenkins]

I have just posted that im glad my son wont go to school with belladonnas children as id hated him to have to put up with her attitude if he misbehaved.................................................

[Blu]

I haven't looked at the thread yet, or searched, but i seem to remember 'belladonna' coming up with something equally poisonous (as befits name) / provocative recently.

[Blu]

Maybe I'm wrong.

[aefondkiss]

blu - I was thinking of posting something about her name suiting her poisonous attitude...