Suggestions from parents of children with challenging behaviour or a vulnerable...

[alycat]

I'm sure I'm going to get myself some grief here but I need some advice (rather than criticism) please. Long too, sorry.

My DS is very small for his age, very passive and his conditions mean that he has (amongst other problems)very poor balance and mobility and falls regularly.

He attends a SN nursery (and a ms one) where on one morning there is a particularly boisterous child, he has ASD - as do many others in the group. I have seen him push my DS over many times.

My DS is quite clearly petrified of him and is does not want to go to the SN group, crying and holding on to me and saying "no Mummy".

When I dropped him off today this little boy rushed at my DS, which made my DS back off quickly causing him to fall and hurt himself. I was trying to protect my DS but without physically restraining the other child I don't know what I could have done.

I have spoken to the managers on many occasions and I think they think I'm being precious, also they are so blardy PC when I politely suggested that the little poppet be gently disuaded from pushing my Ds over I was told "It is just X's way of expressing himself" "It is his right to express himself freely"etc HANG ON, what about MY SON's right to not be pushed or frightened?

I accept that every child is an individual and has a different way of expressing themselves (and that all children at this group have different issues), BUT this child's way of expressing himself is directly impacting on my child's enjoyment/right to education.

I have tried suggesting strategies (like at drop off keeping all the children engaged in an activity untill all have arrived instead of the current race around the room that happens), but seem to be being told that it is impossible to influence the behavious of a child with ASD. Really?

[Shannaratiger]

sorry can't really think of any advice except that you have everyright to be upset.
My dd goes to a SN nursery sometimes she can be aggresive, as has speech / communication difficulties but her playgroup will not tolerate agressive behaviour from any child no matter what their problems. aSN nursery should be able to cope with children with behaviour problems as that is what they are there for.

[Saturn74]

Hmm... you certainly don't deserve any grief for your post.

You're clearly being very reasonable.

My DS2 used to try and make social contact by pushing the other child/children in the chest.

So we worked with him on this, as did the placement, and luckily he responded well.

I'm sure other children may find it more difficult to adjust their behaviours, but I think you have every right to suggest that the nursery protect your child from injury as much as possible.

I know the managers won't be able to discuss the specifics of another child's care, but they should be able to reassure you that there are procedures in place to ensure that your son can play safely.

[alycat]

Thank you for your constructive and supportive posts, I thought I would get flamed for not being understanding enough - I have been for 2 terms but just am so upset by my DS's obvious fear.

He is quite happy at MS and it is getting to the point where I have been considering removing him from SN and just going MS due to this issue.

[pagwatch]

Of course you shouldn't expect to be flamed over this. As the parent of a child with behavioural issues I would be annoyed if the nursery were not dealing with DS's challenging bahaviour at least as determinedly as we do at home.
My DS used to be very aggresive and that was absoloutely top priority to deal with - for him as well as the people he might hurt.
Dealing with challenging behaviours is exactly that - challenging. But it is not impossible.
I went to pick my DSs up today with DD aged 5 in tow. As DD is only just 5 and DS and classmates are all 12 any 'enthusiastic behviour could easily result in her being hurt. As a consequence the staff and helpers were extremely careful and attentive to ensure DS's friends were okThe nurserys attitutde bothers me to tell you the truth. It sounds simplistic and unimaginative and that is selling bith these children short.
Your child needs to feel safe and the child with ASD should be helped to channel his emotions differently. Otherwise his future will be impeeded
Write to them. tell them that it is unacceptable for your Ds to feel afraid and ask what they intend to do to ensure his safety ( that does not require any involvemant of the other childs issues). And if they can't sort it out I would pull your DS out. TBH if they have no strategy to handle this what exactlty are they doing presentingthemselves as helping SN kids

[dustystar]

My ds (7) still pushes his friends now as a way of being friendly. We have always told him that pushing is unacceptable because its not fair on the other children. This other little boy probably really likes your ds and this is his way of showing it but he needs to be taught that it is not acceptable to push your friends and shown better ways of playing.

[macwoozy]

When my ds was in SN nursery, he used to hit and push other children, especially at the beginning of the day when there was alot of excitement and noise. One way the nursery tried to tackle this was by asking me if he could arrive 10 mins later, so that when he arrived all the other children were all sat down and settled, it did help, he wasn't so anxious so didn't feel the need to push so much. Difficult one for you though if the nursey don't even consider it a problem, your poor ds.

[alycat]

Thank you all, I think one of the problems is that the parents seemingly aren't that bothered about their DS' behaviour or maybe they just feel they have tried their best and have given up?

Todays incident happend in front of father and grandparent and many previous have been with mother and grandparent there.

[pagwatch]

I think arrival and departure time - being effectively a hand over of responsibility - can be a bit of a mine field.
One mum a DD's nursery used to ignore the hideous behaviour of her aggresive bullying son at drop off time as she said " staff should be dealing with it" This was NT kid at MS nursery btw.
Parents may feel uncomfortable usingtheir clearly ineffective strategies in front of staff or may, as you say, have given up. Especially f nursery are as negative about the prospects of changing his behaviour as they were when talking to you.
I hope you work things out.
Good luck to you and your DS

[PeachyFleshCrawlingWithBugs]

My ds1 is ASD (HFA) and sadly likely to be the one doing the pushig / thumping (caught me a right hook the toehr day- bloody hurt!)

you have every right to be upset about this, its not right to allow it. I ahte it when I get numbskull comments in DS1's book like 'DS1 thumped a child today but its OK as he knew he shouldnt ahve done it' and thats OK? ten years down the line.... 'orry officer that I stabeed him, I know I shouldnt have'- 'oht hats alright then son, off you go'

!!!!

he ahs to learn.



Now, I know why ds1 does this and its often the case with ASD kids that they haev similar triggers- loud noises, overloads in group situations, etc. And Its important weunderstand the behaviours, but its our responsibility as the adults to attempt to modify them as well. Expressing themselves is not adequate- they need to find alternative ways to express himself, or indeed at least consider if its a group thing that is triggering the behaviour.

HTH

[PeachyFleshCrawlingWithBugs]

pagwatch I've been known to say 'talk to the teacher' when kids come to me complaining about ds1, but thats not lack of interest, its desperation- I feel unless they all complain vociferously, I'll never get anywhere with getting the support in palce that could eradicate the behaviour, iyswim?

[pagwatch]

Peachy
I think you misunderstood my comments.
I said I thought parents at op's school may be overwhelmed rather than disinterested. maybe they are looking for staff to react more determindly too.
My other example was an NT child at a mainsteam nursey and the mum in that instance really didn't care as she was usually reading or on mobile as kids were being taken into class !
My DS is severe ASD as well - I was not aiming my comments at parents who are struggling and need the 'professionals' to help.
Thats exacltly the situation i was in for a while.

The staff should be all over this stuff shouldn't they? How frustrating that they are not in ops case and clearly you are not getting essential help either.
Bloody tiring isn't it?

[PeachyFleshCrawlingWithBugs]

Oh I wasnt criticising or offended Pag- just putting frowards another reasonong

FWIW I think this thread ahs been remarkbaly balanced

[alycat]

Thank you Peachy and Pagwatch,

I agree that the drop off is a high tension time.

There is a really narrow corridor that you have to walk down into the room, the coats/loos are off one side. it is this are that seems to be exacerbating the situation, I have politely suggested to the manager today that they try to ensure that no children are let back down the corridor once arrived and hung coats up, as it is virtually impossible to keep an eye on them down there. So I'm not just saying it mustn't happen I'm trying to make positive suggestions.

I have also suggested that the children are encouraged to join in a whole class activity as they arrive, so they are actually in the class area not running down corridor.

I like the idea of the boisterous ones being dropped of 10 mins after the passive ones, to give the sensitive ones time to settle in the quiet and generally lower the noise/bodies/stimulation for all concerned.
But I'm sure the manager would feel that would be unfairly discriminating against some children.

Oh well, a weeks grace before the next round of clinging and terror :-( maybe the break will do them all good.

[pagwatch]

Peachy

It is such a difficult issue to discuss - especially when we have seen our kids be aggressive to others. But I love talking about this here with others who 'get it'. Makes you feel a bit less alone.
I am a bit about ds just at the moment but not even sure why.And DS1 has just gone on a school trip and i miss him. And talking to you lot helps.

I hope I didn't sound arguementative - didn't mean to....

[PeachyFleshCrawlingWithBugs]

No thats OK- I'm a bit pee'd off about the awful cyber bullying thread, pure nastiness. I know what you mean about others to talk to... its a horrid thing to have to live with, from someone you love so much. BIBIC taught us restriant techniques etc which have helped, but he can be so quick to blow you cant always predict whats happening.... and the dread if ds1 is 2 minutes after the others at school and worrying what he's done now, or who has written in to complain again


Alycat you sound accurate in your assessment of whats happening here, the long corridor packed with coats etc brings me out in palpitations (Im not crowd friendly myself), am sure it would affect ds1 badly. varied drop off sounds good.

[alycat]

Thanks again PW and PFCWB,

I think this thread has hopefully been balanced, I was somewhat nervous starting it.

I accept that as part of my DS' SN he is overly sensitive esp to noise (hypercusis) so I am hoping he adapts and can be a little more robust emotionally - sadly can't do much about the physical robustness - so there is room for growth and improvement for all parties.

Thank you all again, I will be making some more suggestions to the manager with the alternatives I have been offerred on this helpful thread.

[bullet123]

My Ds1 could be the lad doing the pushing. Not deliberately, he won't go up to someone and put out his hands and knock them over, but he loves running up and crashing into people, or getting them in big hugs. Which is fine if you're a fully grown adult who can stand and not be knocked down, but obviously a small child with mobility problems won't find it as easy. When he gets too boisterous with his younger brother we tell him "be gentle". This does mean he then strokes his brother's head as he first learnt it whilst stroking the cat, but we can all live with that . If he was upsetting another child I would stop him and get him to show his excitement or pleasure in other ways (eg he likes jumping).

[pagwatch]

Peachy... I'm sorry a thread has made you sad. I haven't seen it - but I know it is hard when stuff on here is upsetting.

I have been feeling pretty glum too - so I guess that didn't help my responses.
My DS always used to head butt me when i was putting him in his buggy or car seat and i always found that one so hard as it was so painful and he was supposed to love me. Of course now I can seperate his behaviour from his feelings but it is a killer isn't it.

[tibni]

SEN or MS children are different. My NT daughter found the playgroup room too full on when she started so she (and other children) used to go into the quiet room. It wasn't made into a big issue and she soon became more confident in the situation.

My ASD son sometimes struggles with what is appropriate. At the moment the swing at the park has to be monitored. He understands it is good to give children a push but can be over enthusiastic! I always make sure I am really close at hand to ensure he remembers "little push".

You have made the SEN nursery aware. They should be ensuring that pushing doesn't happen as part of a routine. However quick we try to be sometimes we can miss things but if its a regular event then steps should be taken.

[Davros]

Sorry, haven't read this thoroughly but, as the parent of a child with ASD and Challenging Behaviour I think it is up to the nursery to put some strategies in place. FOR ALL CONCERNED! The child with ASD needs intervention, your child needs to feel and be safe and both sets of parents need support and some attempt at management. This is why mixing disabilities usually doesn't work. I didn't understand at first why children with ASD are often educated separately and, as well as behaviour issues, it is because they have abilities and deficits in very different patterns to children with other disabilities. If they are going to mix up super-active and physically capable, but still disabled, children with others who may have more physically-orientated disability and better awareness of others, then they must positively manage it. Have the staff had any ASD awareness training? Maybe suggest ASD awareness training for the parents as a sly way of getting the staff to want to do it, heh heh. THe thing is, the way this child behaves is part of his disability, it is not "normal" behaviour, but that does not make it OK or just not possible to do anything about. Hope you manage to get somewhere....