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Possible Oppositional Defiant Disorder in my 11 year old son

16 replies

MuddlingThrough · 14/06/2007 11:57

We've had difficulties with our older son for ever. He's 11 and has been extremely defiant, oppositional, touchy, since he was about three. I've been looking up Oppositional Defiant Disorder on the internet and it seems to match him with aamzing accuracy (though he is only challenging at home: with all other adults he is exremely shy, and his behaviour at school is absolutely fine -- this suggests our own behaviour as parents is probably partly to blame).
Does anyone have any advice for coping. I'd like to work on giving him coping strategies, building his self-confidence, and calming myself and my husband down (as well as on protecting my younger son from all the tension that's been generated).
Trouble is, my older son seems to be deliberately blind to the fact that his behaviour is difficult. He always blames Mum, Dad, brother -- though in calmer moments he struggles towards self-understanding.
One aspect of it that makes me really sad is that I think he is also depressed and his self-esteem is low, although he is a great kid and popular with his (smallish) circle of friends.
He is very bright (yes, I know all mums say that, but his performance at school is really good) and I'd like to show him some info about ODD to help build his self-understanding (and give him some of the emotional relief we all get when we find a name for a problem). Can anyone recommend a website or book that would give an account of ODD suitable for a child to look at?
Many thanks for any help.

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sarah293 · 14/06/2007 12:03

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MuddlingThrough · 14/06/2007 13:43

I'm sorry you had such a tough time with your eldest, riven. Perhaps there isn't a difference between stroppy/mean and ODD: the 'diagnosis' is only a description of the behaviour, after all. But sometimes it's helpful to give a label, if that helps to point everyone in the right direction for seeking help. It doesn't surprise me to hear that you weren't able to break through the difficulty, or that your child is great outside the family. Sometimes the dynamics within the family just get all screwed up -- not because anyone's at fault, necessarily. I hope the move out of the family has worked for your eldest. Perhaps it will pave the way to getting on better later.
I really want to change things with my son, but it's amazing how he just fails to see that his behaviour is hard for us all -- and for him. He's really loving betweentimes, BTW.

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sarah293 · 14/06/2007 19:39

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Callmemadam · 14/06/2007 20:47

Hi Muddlingthrough - I really appreciate your concerns but would strongly counsel against talking to you son about ODD - as it is NEVER a good idea to give children a label for their behaviour. We see ODD diagnoses in the Youth Court a lot and I would say that a large number of these children do not have a syndrome at all, just behavioural issues that need dealing with. ODD types would present symptoms with all authority figures, not just parents, but that doesn't mean you are to blame - rather that he is capable of distinguishing between what he can explore at home and what he can get away with outside the home. You could ask the GP for a referral to a child psychologist, or ask for parenting support through Social Services (they run parenting support programmes for people in your position) or you could ask the school for their advice. Counselling is a very useful tool for children, and I agree with other posters that it might help. Just try not to label him. He might also grow out of it. If he is your eldest you may also consider whether your expectations of him might be unrealistic in some areas, which would fuel his bad behaviour. HTH

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allthatglisters · 15/06/2007 17:52

Hi muddling through. What sort of things is he defiant/oppositional about? Children on the autistic spectrum can also be quite difficult at home, but shy and don't cause problems at school. Could you get a referral from your GP to a paediatrician? No need to say anything to DS - say you're taking him for a check-up or something and let him wait while you have a word with the GP first.

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MuddlingThrough · 16/06/2007 15:10

Thanks for your response, glisters. Interesting that you should mention autistic spectrum, as a child psychologist friend of mine raised that possibility also (not through meeting ds, though, only bychatting to me). I was really surprised by the thought because he's always been quite imaginative, English is his fav subject at school ,etc. But perhaps he does have some of the characteristics of mild autism/aspergers -- esp if, as you say, that might fit with the contrast between defiance at home and shyness at school. I'd say that if autistic characteristics had anything to do with it they'd probably just be one cause among several and we are probably best off just treating the whole thing as a behaviour problem. I Could be wrong though.
As for what he's oppositional/defiant about, its mostly the usual things -- bedtime, internet time limits (he's addicted to Runescape), quarrels with little bro. But we also have a huge problem with the whole business of punishment. I'm not big on punishment but feel that you can't do without it altogether, esp with a son who is challenging limits all the time, and the prob is that as soon as we institute any kind of punishment, son goes wild to get it reversed (no matter how tiny a punishent it is), and then the whole row is about the punishment itself. Adding further punishments just escalates the situation and things just spiral. Son will follow me around the house arguing, so its really hard to engineer a time-out. Have tried locking myself in loo! I'm quite a democratic, easy-giong parent by temperament so I don't think the defiance is a reaction to over-restrictive parenting.
We might be making some progresss recently -- but this postings too long already so I better stop. Thanks for reading.

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MuddlingThrough · 16/06/2007 15:20

Oh, and thanks, callmemadam, too. I agree that labelling is not necessarily helpful, and I'd think hard before taking the label out of a chatroom to burden him with it in real life.
I was just so amazed and relieved when I saw the 'diagnostic criteria' for ODD and saw how closely they matched ds. I don't think there is any point in the label unless it's a way of navigating to the right sort of help. Things are a little better just now. If they slip back I'm going to chat to our GP and maybe ask for a referral.
When he was small, he might have got the brunt of first-time parents' unrealistic expectations, but I think we weren't too extreme! And in any case we've grown out of that now! He makes us very proud in loads of ways though. We've certainly fueled his bad behaviour: we got much too stressed and shouty, and dh and I were getting on badly.

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glyn · 16/06/2007 19:46

PLEASE do not label your son as having ODD in front of him- he is only 11 and not old enough to take on board what you are talking about - emotionally, he is still a child.

The reason he has low self esteem is probably because he is always in trouble at home and doesn't get enough feedback to show he is loved- it's a vicious circle, as how canyou show that when you are mad at him all the time - I know- been there! He probably hates himself, but as he is a child he cannot control his emotions or behaviour like an adult can. So don't reinforce his low opinion of himself by constantly telling him off- much of his behaviour is likely to be jealousy or wanting attention from you- and for a child,attention for being naughty is better than no attention at all.

As the adult, YOU have to break that circle and try to show positive loving behaviour towards him as much as possible.

It is an old piece of advice, but if you can give your son attention when he is being good, and not only when he is being a pain, then you;ll be onthe right track. Also, ODD is usually a sub-label/behaviour of ADHD/ADD - I have never ever heard of it being used as a label on its own.

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Callmemadam · 16/06/2007 22:20

Yes, agree with Glynn - ODD is used (in my experience in court, at least) to describe a sub-set of behavioural issues shown by a young person with ADHD, or (slightly less frequently) by autistic children. Never appears on its own iyswim.

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allthatglisters · 17/06/2007 12:25

Hi again muddlingthrough. I have some experience of looking after a child with Aspergers and they found it very hard to accept limits - the arguing went on and on. Also I had to be very specific about what I was asking e.g. when out "you may go as far as that tree" rather than "stay close". Computer use was a particular problem and their parents in the end made a firm rule e.g. only at weekends.

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glyn · 17/06/2007 13:58

From what you have said muddlingthrough, I doubt if your child has anything on the autistic spectrum. The fact that he relates very well to his peers is not suggestive of any AS disorder.Children who do has Asperger or autism tend to behave the same in any situation, whether at home or school. It sounds more as if your son feels secure enough at home to push against the boundaries, and also "ask" for attention by being badly behaved, whereas in school he knows the limits!
I think it is very easy for parents to give chldren labels in the hope of pinning their behaviour onto something, when in fact it is often a much more subtle mix of family relationships and family dynamics that are the root cause. I only say this because I am trained in working with children with learning conditions, and also have experience with my own children, one of whom was very much like what you describe. The only advice I can give is that you start looking closely, as you already are,at how you all behave together, and try not to assume there is anything "wrong" with your son - apart from family tensions that need resolving.

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scoobyww · 17/06/2007 14:58

Hi Muddlingthrough,
My Ds2 sounds very similar in a lot of ways, to your DS.He has a dx od ASD and OCD, although the possibility of ODD has also been discussed. he is now on medication to calm him down, which has made a huge difference. Having just read the post from Glyn, I thought you may find the following info useful. It is taken from the National Autistic Society and is a downloadable fact sheet, answering one of the many FAQ's. Hope it helps.

"My son displays different behaviour between school and home. School say they do not have any behavioural difficulties with him, but at home it is a different matter.

This is quite a common scenario we hear about on the Helpline. Tony Attwood refers to this as a Jekyll and Hyde character (Attwood, 1998). There may be a number of reasons for this difference in behaviour. Just because the behaviour occurs at home, it does not necessarily mean the trigger lies there. Your son may find school very stressful, but keeps his emotions locked up until he gets home. Most children with an ASD do not display the body language and facial expressions you would expect to see when a child is feeling a certain way. Whilst your son may appear relatively calm at school, he may be experiencing very different emotions beneath the surface. Asking a child how they feel may not get the correct response as some children can find spoken communication very difficult and find it difficult to explain their emotions to someone."

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glyn · 17/06/2007 16:57

Thanks for that- I have not come across it as all the kids I have taught on the AS have been the same wherever, but my own son was different at home and school- we consulted several professionals for help and they suggested the scenario that I did here- but my son is not AS.

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MuddlingThrough · 18/06/2007 09:37

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts. I really take the point about not labelling and I think that even if he does have mildly Asperger-ish characteristics he is probably in the normal range. I think, as you've said, that the chief thing is just to work as a family at coping better, and in more positive ways, with the challenges that he poses. Things are quite a bit better at the moment. We had a terrible blow up a couple of weeks or so ago and got to the point where we told him he couldn't use the internet for three weeks, a massive punishment for him. We all shocked ourselves by how frantic it got and we are all working realy hard to keep things together now. After a week during which he learned to stop challenging the punishment we said that each day's good behaviour would earn him a day cancelled from the punishment. He managed to co-operate with this and is back online. I think he feels stronger and happier as a result of accepting the punishment and is being quite cooperative and very affectionate. He's also had some good times with his mates recently and that has helped his confidence.
We have great times between the blowouts and we talk loads, and he gets plenty of positive feedback for his many many good points. I ask him about his feelings but he never opens up, either because he doesn't want to, or because he genuinely can't find words or thoughts about emotions. I really don't know which. If things get worse again I do want to ask our GP to refer him for counselling or something -- but the problem is that ds hates the idea of this and I'm afraid he would see it as just another stick to beat him with.

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MuddlingThrough · 18/06/2007 10:30

Oh, and scoobyww, I think that you are right that keeping it together at school is hard work, and the stress of that could be one of the many reasons why we are having a tough time at home. He's just started at sec school (well, last september) and I know he finds it draining, though we've not had any particular problems there. He has always found it really really hard to organise himself, and sec school requires him to be able to do a lot of that, which is a strain for him.
Glad that your son's medication has helped him a bit. OCD must be so hard for him to cope with -- it seems such an exhausting and frustrating thing to have to go through. Best wishes for him.

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glyn · 18/06/2007 13:47

Glad you seem to have found some strategies- don't give him too hard a time at not opening up- even grown men find that har! boys find it very hard to express their feeling or explain their emotions- and he's only eleven. Ditto the counselling- it might do more harm than good, but your GP could refer you to a Child Guidance clinic for anger management.

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