Please Help - Can't cope with behavioural issues with DS age 6 any more

[oliandjoesmum]

I have been reading messages on here for many months relating to some of the issues I have with my eldest son, and have finally plucked up the courage to ask for some advice/ guidance/ comfort because I don't know how to cope any more, or how to understand what the problems are. DS is 6, he has a brother of 2, and a new baby expected in May. He has always had behavioural problems, was always the one to bite etc as a toddler, but I kind of put it down to 'toddlerdom'. During reception we had a few more incidents of biting/ fighting/ running out of classes/ explosive temper, but it seemed to be manageable. I was however concerned enough to have an initial assesment with CAHMS who referred him for an autism spectrum diagnosis (no idea when this will happen) and 'anger management'- first session on 22nd March.
From the beginning of Year 1 things have got much worse. He regularly runs out of lessons, lies on the floor until temper abates, fights with other children if they say anything that he can't cope with/ control. Today we had another incident of biting that has resulted with his behaviour being entered on an official register. He keeps on talking about killing himself/ hating us/ death/ everyone hating him. Triggers seem to be competitive sport/ believing people are laughing at him/ not being 'the best' at anything.
On the plus side (ha ha) he is very loving to us and his brother (who is totally 'normal', no behavioural probs at all) when he wants to be. He is exceptionally bright (reading age of 11, very eloquent and numeric). He can be funny and great company, and intensely loyal to the friends he manages to keep. He is also very co-ordinated and athletic.
I don't know where to go from here, I'm feeling intensely depressed and anxious about the arrival of baby no3. I'm worried what the 'official recording' of his behaviour means, and the consequences for his education. He is due to change schools in Year 3 to our catchment primary school, I'm concerned about the implications of a record of behavioural problems on this. I don't know what happens if he gets a SEN, does he have to go to a school with a 'unit' (the only local school I know with one is horrendous). WOuld his brother have to go there then also (as I said he is fine)? I am so worried about everything, but more than anything else I don't know how to make him happy and it is breaking my heart. Any advice from those going through similar would be greatly appreciated, I am at breaking point. Sorry about the ramble, and lack of symbols etc, as I said this is my first time.

[saintmaybe]

Oh oliandjoesmum sorry you're having such a hard time

What a worrying time for you; but it sounds like the best thing that you've got a referral; at least it might be a route to some support for him (and you). I'm sorry I don't know what the situation would be re school in your area, but where we live you can't be forced to place your child anywhere and I'd assume that's generally the case, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along. Is there a local support group? I know your ds may well not have an asd but the national or local autistic society may have info?

Take any help that's offered; and keep remembering all the lovely things you've written about him; you need to be 'in the system' to get help for him, but not surprisingly their focus will be on his problems, and he's clearly got so many great things going for him, especially a lovely, loving mum.

Hope you get some help and welcome I'm pretty new too and have had so much support and wisdom here

[MamazonAKAfatty]

First of all calm down.

the school have undoubtedly seen worse and so have all the professionals that work with him.

DS is 6 and we think he is somewhere on the spectrum. he has had severe behavioural issues from a very young age and has therefore been statemented since he was 2.10

He is still in mainstream school, its one of the best schools in the area.

You have confronted the issue of his behaviour and you are already in "the system" so hopefully you will be reffered to all the right people.
I think the fact that his temper and subsequant outbursts are worse now he has progressed to year one may be because he is so incredibly bright. he may find it so under stimulating that he gets frustrated.

hopefully the ASD assesment will shed some light and they can giev you some more answers as to the cause for his behaviour. I would imagine if he has been seen by Camhs for a while and they ahve reffered him it is pretty safe to say that he is likely to be on the spectrum at some point.

First of all the "official record" just means that they keep a note of any incidents of violance at school. it doesn't mean anything to you or your Ds in real terms.
If he gets a firm diagnosis you may want to look into the possibilty of a special needs school. the "unit" that you know of may not be anything to do with ASD and so don't jusge all SN schools by the one you have heard of.
dont feel this is the only way though, as i say my ds is in ms and is (touch wood) doing ok.

the school may want to start the process of getting a statement of special educational needs. this means your DS needs are listed and then an amount of funding is allocated to him. it is then a legal requirment for the school and LEa to provide the things outlined for your DS to learn.

It will have absoltuly no bearing on the schools you choose for your other children.

Try and speak to the schools SENCO about how your feeling. she may know of soe local support groups for children with challenging behaviour.

[oliandjoesmum]

THanks for the answers, I think it is probably so hard and I am over-reacting becuase this is 'lightbulb' moment, up until now I have hidden behind the possibility he is just a bit highly strung, and there is't actually anything wrong. Also, the parents of the children at the receiving end are so not understanding. I know it is horrible when your child gets hurt, but do they really think I wouldn't be doing everything I can????

I don't feel like a very good or kind Mummy at the mo to be honest. I feel a bit detached from him, not cross so much as unable to face the intensity of the pain I feel when I have to deal with his issues. He was dreadful at a friend's party a couple of weekends ago, and I actually told him I didn't want to live with him any more, and that I couldn't stand the pain of loving him any longer. How awful is that, I'm really not a very nice Mummy.

[twoisplenty]

Hi Olieandjoesmum. Please don't be so hard on yourself. It sounds like you are feeling extremely stressed at the moment, and of course when you start to realise there may be something "wrong" with your child, it is such a tough time.

Mamazon's reply really did make lots of sense, and hopefully has put things in perspective for you a little, about the official side of things - the official register and sen are all there to help, not to label your ds.

It sounds to me (not qualified to say much) that your ds is extremely bright and is very frustrated. Children have amazing ways of showing their anger and frustration, and he is trying every way to get loads of attention so someone will notice his unhappiness/anger.

Whilst it seems that some help is on its way for your ds, it really is you that needs loads of help. Have you thought about counselling etc - I know that's what everyone says when something goes wrong, but it really does help because the counsellor helps to put things into perspective again.

Wondering about the part about him talking about hating yuu etc. That could possibly be no more than attention seeking, again, because of his pure frustration because he is bright and needs more challenges at school/home. Or it could be something else such as ADD (attention deficit disorder). I only know a little about ADD so hopefully someone will read this and enlighten us if I am barking up the wrong tree!

Your ds is only young and once the problem has been recognised, it can turn around quickly, so please don't despair. It sounds like help is just around the corner.

[amynnixmum]

Hi oliandjoesmum

First of all {{{hugs}}} I have been where you are and it was the most horrible time of my life

It does sound as if you are doing all you can. Don't worry about the other parents - there's always someone who will disapprove no matter what you do. DS is 6 and i am sure he is on the spectrum (and the paed agrees)but tbh he is unlikely to get a dx. He does have a statement though and that has made a HUGE difference to all our lives.

He has 1:1 support at school which has helped him. We had to pull him out of his old school as they were so crap. The LEA agreed to backyear him (he was still only 4 at the time) and he started his current school from reception in sept 2005.

He still needs support and can be unpredictable and he is a PITA at home at the moment but at school he is doing reallly really well and these days most people wouldn't pick him out as different. At his old school people were quite judgemental but the parents were he is now are mostly really good. They know he has difficulties and needs support and they seem to understand when he occasionally has a meltdown.

If you are on good terms with the school I would encourage you to have a meeting with the SENCo to discuss strategies for heloing him in school and also about asking for a statutory assessment. You don't need the schools support though and can ask the LEA yourself to do an assessment.

CAT me if you want to chat - I remember how awful that time was and you have my complete sympathy.

[Bink]

I haven't ever heard of parents being forced to send their child to a unit or special school when they wanted their child to be in mainstream (the other way round, unfortunately, I have heard).

So the huge likelihood is that your child will stay in mainstream, with, hopefully, the right kind of targeted help for his particular needs.

One thing, and I completely sympathise with you on this as I have done it myself, is to be really really careful about telling him how you feel. The thing is, if your son does have autistic spectrum issues, it will be very difficult for him to pick up on how other people feel - and to get puzzled, confused and anxious about the bits of understanding he does pick up. The temptation (speaking about myself here!) is that, because he doesn't pick up on the subtle hints of how I feel, to make it all crystal clear - and in that, to get quite close to Laying On A Guilt Trip - which, for a child whose understanding of other's feelings is already only basic, makes it all that much more bewildering. (NB I am lecturing myself here, not you!!)

[Bink]

Oh goodness, I didn't explain that I've got a 7yo ds with similar issues - sorry - my post can't have made sense.

Also "other's" should be "others'". Misplaced apostrophes being an MN sin.

[utterlyconfused]

Hi there,
I have come on to do some browsing of the SN topic for my own benefit, and I just want to tell you that I really sympathise. My ds is coming up 5, and while his behaviour is not quite so extreme (eg biting), it has been terrible, and confusing, for a long time. I am now "in the system" with him, and they are not quite sure where to go with him... but it feels so good to have someone on my side. It is a very lonely place to be and it must be so much worse when you have a baby on the way, not only because it is a huge event for you, but you also have no idea what impact it will have on him.
Hold tight. You will feel a huge sense of relief when your first appointment comes round. One of the best things is that you suddenly feel that someone knows where you're coming from and what you're goin through.
Please keep us in touch with how it goes. It's exactly your sort of story that I am looking for... 6 months or so down the line.

[MamazonAKAfatty]

To add that i know all too well how it feels to have to listen to the victims parents talking to you as if you condone the behaviour.
I have sat inside my car and cried many many times because i just don't know what to do anymore.

If i am honest i will admit to also thinking " i cant do this any more"

It is probably one of the most painfull things to admit but sadly its true. Don't beat yourself up over it though...i think most parents think it on occasion.

I also understand the "lightbulb moment".
I spent months if not years telling people there was something more than the terrible two's, that i thought it was ADHD/ASD/something but when the pead finally agreed that it was more than liklely to be something along the spectrum i was in shock. It was official.

try not to pre diagnos him just yet but be positive, he will (hopefully) now be on the right track to receiving the help he needs to calm his behaviour.

DS was so bad at one stage that he spent the majority of the day in a classroom alone with his 1:1 and would need to be dropped off and collected at a seperate time to the other children as the school didnt want the other parents to see his outbursts, he couldn't stay for lunchtime and he was rarely allowed out at break time as he would get too excited.

Now he is staying all day, sitting in assembly and has only been excluded once all term - it used to be a minimum of once a week!

There is light at the end of the tunnel. it may be a long way off and its a very bumpy road, but if you strap yourself in and try and enjoy the scenary the final destination is well worth the sore bum.

[coppertop]

Welcome to the SN board, Oliandjoesmum.

Your ds won't have to go to a special school unless you want him to.

A lot of the behaviours you describe sound like the kind of things my 2 boys do/have done when things get too much for them. The new school might be able to work with you to think of some strategies that might help, eg allowing him to retreat to somewhere quiet when it gets too much for him, working on social skills to help with turn-taking and the idea that he will not always be the winner in games (a familiar one in this house I'm afraid).

Keep posting if it helps. xx

[Heartmum2Jamie]

Hi there!

I am also another mummy who came on for a browse more than anything, but I can relate to some extent. I have a 5.9 year old son who has some aspects of his behaviour that worries both my dh & I, although not to the extreame you have mentioned (I really do think that your ds is exceptionally bright and showing his frustration). we are currently awaiting referal, the GP wants to assess him first , so we are going tomorrow. It is a frightening and worrying time, especially as ds1 is supposed to be my "normal" child, for want of a better term, as ds2 is already special needs. I think for me, the wondering is worse, if I knew one way or another I would be able to deal with things better overall.

Anyway, just to send some hugs, it sounds like you need them ((()))

[oliandjoesmum]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, it means so much to here of others in the same boat. I think coming to terms with the fact that, as I have always known, it is more than 'terrible 2s/3s/4s etc , has been the hardest thing. I have always known his behaviour was out of step with other children but the official recognition of that is very painful. I had a meeting with the Head yesterday about the Action Plan Plus etc, and feel calmer about the process. Sorry to all of you who have been through this and are experts, you must have thought I was being a bit over the top and hysterical. I understand now that these things are put in place to help him, not to make him 'labelled'.
The comment about a calm place to retreat to when it 'all get too much' really hit home. He is extremely sensitive to loud noises, competitive situations etc, and I really think he has to run or hit out, he doesn't know what else to do.
The saddest thing I'm sure you will all agree is that I'm sure all our children have many wonderful qualities (DS1 certainly does) but they just seem to be overshadowed by the bad stuff, and they just get labelled as 'naughty' by those who don't know them.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Hi olieandjoesmum

Look at all this as a signpost to DS getting more help, not just as a label.

Am glad he is on something in school (school action plus) but I would now seriously consider applying for a Statement of special needs for your son asap. Do NOT get the school to do this for you, this is for two reasons. If you apply for it you will know its been done then, the other reason is that if the LEA say no you can appeal. The school has no such right.

Unlike SA plus, a Statement is legally binding and the school will be given a set number of hours (I daresay more than he gets now on SA plus) to support him during his school day.

There is nothing to stop you applying yourself for such a document. All you need to do is write a letter requesting assessment to the LEA you reside in. The sooner you apply for it the better as it can take six months plus to set up. Certainly do not leave this until he's in junior school.

IPSEA are very good at all this and would suggest you visit their website as well
www.ipsea.org.uk

[oliandjoesmum]

DS1 kicked a playtime assistant this week. Am I wrong in thinking the fact that they have put him on SAP should mean that they treat him differently. He kicked her because he was messing around in the queue to come in from playtime (was not the only child doing this) so she sent him to stand by a wall in front of approx 90 kids. I have TOLD them that one of the triggers is being humiliated in front of others. I understand there has to be discipline, but what is the point in me telling them about triggers if they aren't going to action it?? Had to be called in the deputy head (the walk of shame across the playground for me)who wanted to know what the consequences for DS at home would be. Pardon, have they not yet grasped that consequences DO NOT work because he genuinely doesn't seem to have any control over his actions when the rage/ humiliation etc descends.
Another question, I have waited since 08/06 for this CAMHS appointment, but having read many messages on here I think I am going to be a bit dissapointed. We are also waiting for an ASD diagnosis, but that could be another 9 months yet. I have private healthcare which will cover referral to a psychiatrist but not psych, have no idea I'm afraid what the distinction is, but is it worth it? Does anyone have any advice on whether I will gain anything?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Hi olieandjoesmum,

If you are referring to School Action Plus this is frankly not worth the paper its written on particularly at lunchtimes as there is no scope for any additional cover. Lunchtime assistants are rarely if ever told about childrens' special needs so she would not have known about your son. This does not make what she did right though. SAP in class would only provide minimal support as well, certainly no one to one for instance.

It may come to pass that you can tell them about him till you're blue in the face but they will take no heed.

Your best bet now is for your own self to apply for a Statement of Special needs on his behalf. Consider looking at IPSEA's website and using their model letter. Certainly do not rely on school to do it, you'll wait forever and they do not seem at all understanding currently. If your DS was to get a Statement it will hopefully buck the school's ideas up a bit and they will have to work to the letter of the statement (its legally binding unlike SAP). He will be given more help in class if you get a Statement in place for him. Ultimately if this school are not understanding even with a statement in place you may need to look at educating him at another, hopefully more amenable, school.

I would see if your private health insurance would cover a visit to a developmental paediatrician and if so see this person. If they don't cover then I would seriously consider paying to see such a bod. I would go all out to try and obtain a diagnosis asap. Such a person would probably be more helpful to you than a psychiatrist. I ,personally speaking only, would not go near CAMHS with a long pole with regards to your son. They certainly have their place but from what I have read of them ASD and diagnosis of is not their main speciality of interest and they may muddy the waters still further.

[Mamazon]

when i moved to my current area i waited for my previous CAMHS to transferme over to the new areas team..i waited almost a year!. i contacte the GP to see if he could reffer me as a new patient and he told me straight to my face that CAMHS were worse than useless so there was no point. he refffered me to the Child development team and to a PEad who have been brilliant!

I wouold advise contacting your GP and discussing with him the problems you are having and see what he says.

Alternativly yes a private pead would be advisable.

As Atilla says, however good the school is if they don't pass such information on to the lunch time staff he will never get the extra help during what is usualy the most difficult time of day. you need to find out if he has a specific supervisor during this time (some schools have dinner ladies assigned to a class etc) and so you can speak with her about how she deals with any issues that arise.

Nothing irritates me more than having DS get in trouble because he has been badly "managed" at school by people who should have been told about him if they are expected to deal with him.

[oliandjoesmum]

Thanks mamazon and attila for your advice. I have an appointment with the GP on Thursday and will print out this info to take with me. That way I won't get all muddled and led by the GP, and I can stick to what I actually want to ask for. I will also talk to my DH re starting the statementing process. He is very reluctant to do this as he thinks that there is some sort of stigma attached, but I will use these messages, again, to try to explain to him why it is a good idea.
Am seriously considering a change of school, have been since the beginning of the year, so I guess that is the next step.
I guess we will still go the CAMHS on Thursday, but at least with all your advice I will not have unrealistic expectations. I wasn't really relying on them for the diagnostic bit anyway (waiting list is massive) but hoping they may help with some behaviour management. Thanks again

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"He is very reluctant to do this as he thinks that there is some sort of stigma attached"

He is wrong. You can tell your DH from me that there is no stigma attached to his child having a statement. Your son will need extra help in school and this is the best way of going about it. I feel far better for my son (and my son is much happier in school these days) having a statement in school because he would have struggled a lot more without one.

Let us know how you get on and don't let CAMHS bamboozle you or fob you off!.

[amynnixmum]

Completely agree with meerkat. DS statement has changed all our lives. A dx wouldn't have made anywhere near the difference this has. If you can get one for him go for it.
Have just started a new behaviour program with ds called 123 Magic that they do at school and so far its working well

[mum24boyz]

hiya hun, and welcome to mumsnet, these boards are brilliant and the wisdom is and support is great. i have a ds age 5, in reception at school, no dx but is statemented due to 'learning difficulties' and dd, he is ahead of all of his class in his letter and number skills, has been writing his own name since he was 3 etc, sounds similar to your ds just maybe not as highly strung, but that said hun, thats because his issues have been dealt with for some time. he had a statement in place ready for starting school(yes i do know how lucky that was lol) and a support worker with lots of experience with asd. as i said he has no dx but the school believe he is as, they have worked with him as an asd child and he is doing great, but... a couple of wks ago i was called into school, he has been hitting out, kicking, biting etc, not just the kids but support staff including his 1-1 whome he absolutely adores. thankfully this seems to have calmed down now as we set some strategies up between us which touch wood are working. i would have a look at autism site and use some of the points, try some visual timetables etc as this worked well for ds. what i came onto say though, if this has just got worse in school with your ds, they were worried about mine as when he goes into yr 1, they do not have the same support as in no nursery nurses, despite his obvious brightness asd struggle to understand instructions, this could be where all this frustration is coming from, aswell as the boredom. with the right help you may find a very different little boy hidden in there, i know despite all the probs i wouldnt change mine for the world, he can be so challenging, but is absolutely adorable. just one more thing lol, tell him everything you are going to do in advance, we have to spend hrs if not days explaining things to ds, so that he knows what is happening, and it really does help, they do not like surprises, even without a dx i would use some of these strategies as you may find they make life much easier. and plz stop being so hard on yourself, with a new baby on the way and a toddler to cope with, its hardly surprising you are struggling at the mo, but with the right help it will get easier hun. sending hugs to you xxx

[Mamazon]

there is absolutly no stigma attached to havoing a statement as no one ut the school know about it unless you tell them.

the change in how your child is taught will be vast once he has a statement. the shcoll will get extra funding that HAS to be spent to help your DS. Having a statement is so very very important for a child with SN. it really can be the difference between an education and not.

Try getting your DH to look through the IPSEA website with you and discuss the statementing process and the possible outcomes with you and maybe the schopol SENCO.

[oliandjoesmum]

Sorry to anybody who feels I was suggesting statements are shamedul, I really don't think they are. I just think dh finds it hard because he doesn't want to face up to there being a real problem, although I have seen him crying secretly over DS a few times recently. His family are also horrified that we have even involve camhs, never mind anything else! I need to start the process/ look at ipsea stuff etc so I can accept I am doing all I can, and start to concentrate on birth of ds3. I will be in a real mess otherwise, as have suffered with PND both times (severely with DS1, often worry this has contributed to his probs), and then I will only damage him even further.
Mum24boyz, your son sounds v like mine, it is very comforting to feel less alone. He also has great difficulty in following instructions, and interpret them in his owm special way! Sure many of the things that make their childhoods so hard will make them quite special adults (apart from the biting etc obviously!!)

[mum24boyz]

oh hun yeah, have you seen the lists for famous asd and as peeps, they can achieve brilliance hun, and i will do nothing less that push my son to reach his full potential, (without being too pushy of course lol). yeah ds struggles with instructions and things have to be explained very simply, that said, we sent him upstairs for his school shoes the other morning, and he came down with a t-shirt, must have completely forgotten on the way there what he wanted bless him, it can be so frustrating. i didnt feel like you were undermining statements hun, i know men find these things hard, its a scar on their manhood to produce anything less than perfection isnt it, luckily my husband isnt like that, but for the record thats because he was sn himself and i suspect he may be aspies, certainly has traits. hope your feeling a little more positive now hun, you never mind what hubbies family say, you get the wheels in motion for your little man now, and everything else hopefully will feel easier. hugs xxx

[Mum2boys3]

Hello like you i suffered Server PND with my son who is waiting to be assessed and my main worry/ feel guilty about is did i cause this in my son. I was a single parent at 17 and had no support and i wonder if my lack to bond love him for the first few years has caused this in him or if i found parent hood so hard because he wasn't an easy baby wouldn't play or seem to enjoy my company at all and spent the first year screaming his head off. Every1 of my friends would say how hard he is and how do i cope. Well i didn't nearly gave him up because i couldn't cope with his behavoir any longer. My DP did change him around and has made our lives much happier but still things are a daily struggle with him.