Sorry, me again. Am I expecting too much from school?

[DishwasherDogs]

Ds2(9) waiting to be assessed for ASD. Masks everything expertly at school, blows up at home (sorry, broken record, some of you have heard this over and over )

We have ongoing problems with ds missing parts of break at school, it doesn't happen very often, but when it does we have days of meltdowns, anger and need to constantly supervise ds as he will hurt anyone that gets in his way.
Breaks are missed when work isn't completed. Ds struggles to motivate himself and needs lots of encouragement to keep working, although some days he finds it easier than others. The teacher acknowledges that he needs some extra support, but at the same time says there are many in the class who need extra support. Ds is doing ok academically in general.

I have spoken to ds's teachers who say there isn't really any other way of handling this. I pointed out that support is needs led not diagnosis led, and told them how this affects him, hoping that they'd see the whole child, the one who goes home, who has a family etc., not just the child they see at school, but no, if work is not finished, he misses part of his break, they're happy to discuss other options but at the moment, this is the one that's working.

Ds also has problems with golden time (a 15 minute extra break on Friday from which children - probably the same children each week - lose time for bad behaviour). Ds struggles with a punishment hanging over his head all week, but also gets angry when friends lose time unfairly.
Apparently children earning golden time instead of losing it (you know, encouraging children positively) is not workable, and children need a punishment so they are effectively disciplined.

So, like I said, I want them to understand that ds isn't just the child that they see at school, and certain things have a massive impact on him, reducing his ability to communicate effectively at home and making home life extra stressful, on top of the usual stress we face every day, and I want them to make small allowances to make ds's life a little bit easier and give him fewer reasons to hate school.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Because there is no diagnosis, there's nothing doing.
Given that ds presents mostly as NT at school, does that take away the need for support? Am I expecting too much?

If I'm not, what the hell can I say to get them to understand?

Again, I am very sorry for repeating myself yet again, and I'm very grateful for anyone who reads this far and give me some constructive advice, even if it's telling me to give up being so precious.

[Jerbil]

Hi and stop apologising. I know how you feel but this is one place you can repeat yourself and know you won't be criticised for it.

Problem is when you have a DC that holds it together all day at School they are less likely to make allowances. When my DC was younger School couldn't believe why I couldn't get him to wear socks. He has ASD, SPD, OCD but at the time was undiagnosed. Eventually I took a video of him to the head. The head simply said well you can't go through that every day! May be worth a video?

Also ask them why they aren't using a carrot rather than a stick approach. What they are doing is simply not working so why do they persist? Is it that they are asking too much of your DC?

I take school don't believe your DC has ASD! A common theme with the DCs whole manage themselves. Read Tony Attwoods books, I think you'll find them helpful.

Also speak to national autistic society. See how they can help you too.

Good luck.

[DishwasherDogs]

Thank you.
Polter, yes that's me. I've told the teachers that that ds's consultant has said he is on the autistic spectrum, they have a copy of a letter stating as much. I also have a letter from the CDC saying support is needs led and that a diagnosis doesn't make much of a difference.

I have shown them a video (9 minutes of non-communicative, noise making, unco-operative grumpiness), but I suspect it's been interpreted as weak parenting coupled with a naughty boy.

I've played voice recordings of ds making noises (repeated beeps in one, siren noises in another) but I think that was interpreted as him playing cars noisily - he wasn't, he was pacing through the house expressionless. Sometimes he'll be getting on with other things, getting changed, watching tv, but he predictably has this time of making noises after school.

I spoke to a lady at camhs by chance last week, she offered (out of the blue) to help by writing letters to school, she has written one about homework (ds struggles with maths homework, he's capable but gets over anxious and takes well over an hour to complete it, leading to meltdowns). School were being rigid about it, saying that he had to finish it or miss breaks to finish it.

Ds doesn't miss breaks regularly, I think it's been three times this term (so perhaps I am being too precious about it), but the threat is always there which terrifies him (at home). The last time he missed was last Thursday. It took until Monday morning for him to be his normal grumpy self again, instead of a raging child.

I believe he is capable of the work, but stress gets in the way and he gets stuck until someone can motivate him, but as they've pointed out, they can't be with him all the time. The carrot method is more time consuming than the stick, and isn't it the case that most people need to see a child punished for behaviour, rather than encouraging more and rewarding the good behaviour?

I think it boils down to ds not being a problem to them so they won't change anything. The naughtiness he shows is written off as attention seeking naughtiness, when I suspect although that's what it looks like, it's triggered by feeling under pressure and not quite coping with that and not knowing how to deal with it whilst still masking how he feels.
I'll have a look at the legal stuff, but I suspect without a clear diagnosis (which we may not get) we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I am still waiting for the OT report which I hope will prove that there is more going on than school think there is.

[Ineedmorepatience]

What a shame that they cannot use a little more carrot and a little less stick

Dd3 was put with a teacher who constantly threatened punishments last year and it made her seriously anxious.

I agree with polter about Reasonable Adjustments, I would go in and ask them to stop punishing him for something that is probably caused by his disability!!
I would mention reasonable adjustments, maybe differentiation and possibly even discrimination, depending on how mad you get!!

Good luck

[tempe48]

Anybody who has studied psychology knows this is the order of most effective approaches:

1. Positive reinforcement
   
2. Negative reinforcement
   
3. Punishment - this comes bottom because it fails to model the desired behaviour
   

I agree - search on Google for the CoP for Disability Discrimination for Schools. They should agree a reasonable time for work to be done, and then let him stop.

[DishwasherDogs]

Thank you. I've downloaded the SEND code of practise, and the link you posted Polter, I'll have a look at them this morning.

A quick look at the CoP - something about children having a right to an education that allows them to live fulfilling lives, yet they stick to a sanction that directly reduces his ability to live a fulfilling life?

The senco tells me that we can't reduce our expectations in ds, and I agree, but the way they carry this out reduce his ability to be a happy child, which I would argue is an extremely important part of childhood.

I need to find a way to say this that actually gets through. And without getting arsey.

[Icimoi]

The teachers are clearly wrong in saying punishment is the only way to handle this, because there is the option of extra support - they simply don't choose to supply it. The fact that there are other children also needing extra support is irrelevant. The school gets funding to provide support for children with SEN. If it's not enough, maybe they should be putting forward more children for EHC Plans.

If he has DLA there is no argument that he is disabled and they have a duty to make reasonable adjustments. They aren't making those adjustments, and they are punishing DS for his disability. I suggest a meeting with the SENCO and teacher where you politely point that fact out, say you would hate to have to take action by way of a disability discrimination claim and suggest planning on different strategies with DS.

I suggest you have a look at the stuff about disability discrimination in education on the Equality and Human Rights Commission website.

[DishwasherDogs]

Dis isn't on an EHCP. Should he be even if he doesn't present as needing much more support at school?

I've just done the PDA test on the leaflet on another thread, he scores quite highly based on behaviour at home.

[Icimoi]

He possibly doesn't qualify for an EHCP, but if the school is saying it doesn't have enough resources to support a child like your DS then it's a fight they should have with the LA and it maybe that they could help themselves by looking at whether they could get extra support for at least some of the children via EHCPs.

[DishwasherDogs]

Thank you, I'll bear that in mind for our next discussion.

Ds had a very distressing 3 hour meltdown last night, banging his head on the floor, ended up needing to be restrained.
I think it's because another dc at school keeps jumping on him. I've been in so many times about this child, but I keep being told that ds looks fine, it doesn't happen often.
I spoke to the teacher this morning, he sounded puzzled about it all, says that staff are watching out all the time.
They are well and truly sick of me at school, I suspect.

[Icimoi]

Doesn't happen often! FFS, surely if it happens once that another child jumps on him, that's once too often! Could be worth getting hold of the school's bullying and discipline policies and insisting that they comply with them in relation to the other child. If they don't know how it happens it's another strong argument for the school providing more support for him.

[Mollyweasley]

I would put your issues and suggested solutions in writing, to the class teacher and Senco. If this doesn't work then write to the head teacher too.Then you only need to explain things once and won't need to go back in. In the letter mention Tony Attwood and the NAS society (they have a pack for teachers with a small mention of children who do behave well at school and meltdown at home. Mention the impact on your DS, the whole family and the siblings if any.My DS is like yours so I understand your frustration. good luck.

[sbm78]

Hi DishwasherDogs,

I totally sympathise where you are coming from, my DS sounds very similar. My DS is at the very beginning of the ASD assessment.

To me reading your post it sounds like school do not know how to deal with children like ours. We've recently moved schools and oh my what a difference. Yes my DS still has angry moment and meltdowns BUT this school are dealing with so much better. They know that going outside is a trigger for him because he gets himself excited/emotional and is hard to control so instead they take him and a friend to play lego quietly, or just them to play ball or colouring or something else that they like doing. They have calm time every afternoon, where just after lunch they take him off on his own for 10 minutes where he gets to lie down on a beanbag, listen to stories and just chill out. He feels special because he's getting that bit extra but also it works and is helping the teacher.

Yes they do punish when he does have a bad episode, which is usually taking away something that they've given him to do, for example he likes helping out with tuck shop so for punishment he won't do that for a day.

Taking away the little things they give them is a better punishment than making them miss golden time as it doesn't seem AS bad for the child.

I hope I'm making sense.

Good luck, this isn't easy.

[sbm78]

and also to mention about homework. My DS class teacher accepts that I have a battle every night to get him to read and do homework. It's a serious struggle. He refuses, shouts, screams, throws things. Similar? School have a homework club which OMG is the best thing since sliced bread. Not saying he corresponds all the time but they get more out of him than I do at home.

[DishwasherDogs]

Another email sent.

I've found loads of links that describe ds to a t, but they're all about girls with asd. I will send some to school though.

Re homework, ds enjoys English homework and spellings because he knows he is good at them. Maths homework is exactly as you've described!
Homework club isn't an option at the moment as more time spent in school would not be acceptable to ds at all.
CAMHS have written a letter on his behalf saying that he should be doing no more than 10 minutes a night of homework. My plan is with maths to get him to do 10 minutes on a Friday night and 10 minutes on Monday. If it's not finished, tough.

I think school don't know how to handle this as ds literally shows nothing at school, so they think I'm some hysterical woman sending emails at the slightest thing. (I don't, I feel physically sick and go bright red when I have to assert myself, so I only send them when it's necessary!)

I've offered to play some voice recordings to the SENCO/ht so she understands how bad ds feels.

It's like hitting my head against a brick wall.

[MeirAiaNeoAlibi]

Trying to explain to the willfully ignorant is exactly like hitting your head off a brick wall. No effect on the wall, and just gives you a headache that makes you worse off than before your started.

Don't bother. Look at what is happening to similar children a bit higher up in the school. If they'll 'get it' eventually, and then provide good support, perhaps sit it out. But if not (and with this level of intransigence it's usually not), save yourself the stress and walk away

[Mollyweasley]

so sorry, I feel for you, it is really tough. .Have you contacted parent-partnership?

[DishwasherDogs]

There are other dc with additional needs. A couple with ASD but with more obvious signs and a diagnosis (which apparently makes all the difference when it comes to support).
There is a dc who I'm sure has SN but comes across as incredibly naughty (I know he's not, but that's everyone's take on it, including school) they deal with him the same way as they do ds - the same punishments over and over which look effective but don't actually encourage or change the behaviour.

Dh and I had said we would give it to half term and reassess how things are going.
Not sure it's going well at the moment. Scared it would be disastrous for ds though.

[DishwasherDogs]

I contacted parent partnership before our first CAF, but apart from her sending an acknowledging email I haven't heard anything back. She's incredibly difficult to get hold of, but thankyu for reminding me about them, I'll ring her again tomorrow.

[Mollyweasley]

we had to go private as we were going nowhere on the NHS.

[DishwasherDogs]

Ds's assessment (NHS) is going to be in January, it was going to be a year in January.
We had approached Margo Sharp who was going to assess him in November, but we have postponed it now his assessment has been brought forward. Hopefully we won't need to go down that route.

Ds is so good at masking and saying and doing what he knows people expect to hear and see. Hopefully someone will get a glimpse of what we see.

[Mollyweasley]

I think medical professional will trust you. His profile is not uncommon. Teaching staff have no training in this kind of thing and far too much power sometimes! They sometimes have no idea of what the child and his family can go through on a day to day basis unless they have come across it before. the diagnosis should help to convince them. I am guessing he is in year 5, my experience is that secondary school are much better at this.

[DishwasherDogs]

Yes he's year 5.
I've read on here that secondary tends to be easier, at least we haven't got long to wait!

[SquishSquasherDogs]

Think we might be getting somewhere now :)

Heard from the OT yesterday, a 17 page report is on its way recommending some therapy to help ds self regulate. Apparently over the next 6 months they will develop a sensory diet for him.
She said he lacks tone which can affect how he processes information.
All sounds foreign to me at the moment, I'm sure I'll learn :)