Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.
1,2,3 magic for 4 year old with possible asd?(26 Posts)
I am fully aware that some of ds's behaviours are sensory or anxiety based and I know that discipline is definitely not the way to deal with these. He is suspected to have asd and already diagnosed speech and language disorder and developmental delay.
But ds is fairly developmentally behind and is just starting the type of behaviour you see in most nt 2 year olds (he's 4.5). Lots of boundary testing, throwing things etc.
It is a years wait to asd assessment and I need to do something to deal with some of that behaviour. I've learnt an awful lot over the last couple of years about sensory issues and anxiety (mostly from reading on here!) and certainly would not be looking to discipline anything like that.
But for developmental boundary testing etc would a 1,2,3 magic approach be any good or any other ideas? Thanks
123 magic was a total FAIL for my ASD son. I tried, oh how I tried as that was what school behavior management systems was based on but it twas a disaster. What worked was more along these lines:-
The out of sync child
take a look too at the challenging behavior foundation. It's a really helpful site.
Start by keeping a diary to see if you can identify the specific triggers for challenging behaviors. Then it's surprising how often the solution seems like common sense to you.
I've never used it but from what I've heard and read it is pretty effective with typically developing kids and it's a good plan to give it a go even if to just prove that your child doesn't respond in a typical way.
That's true - I did keep a diary to take to appointments that showed it deffo didn't work. I think it's the only reason I wasn't forced to endure a parenting course too.
Similar here, I've always made it clear we've tried all the standard stuff and I've never been offered a parenting course. It's often the fact that standard parenting stuff doesn't work that highlights there's something 'more'.
This is interesting... My ds snaps to it when I start counting, but does obviously have something going on. I'm in the murky waters of is it "just" sensory processing difficulties or something more/else. Why do you all think some kids with asd don't respond to 1, 2, 3 magic?
I've used quite a mix of parenting strategies. I didn’t do “1-2-3 Magic” as such but I did do quite a lot of “count to 3 and consequence”. I had a list of little immediate consequences planned out in advance; I told DS what I wanted him to do and that I was going to count to 3 and what the consequence would be if didn’t do whatever by the time I got to 3, then counted steadily(1-banana-2-banana-3). It worked pretty well. Trick was, I never ever slowed the countdown, if I thought DS was going to need longer I would say I’d count to 5 or 10 instead; I didn’t care whether he did it on 1 or 3; and if he wasn’t doing it by 3 I always did the consequence. Not saying it would work for everyone though. It worked for us because it meant I had to be very clear about what I wanted DS to do; because he found numbers calming; and because the pause while I counted seemed to give him enough time to change direction mentally.
No guarantees that any of this will work for your child. But as the others have said, there’s no harm in giving 1-2-3 Magic a try.
this can be helpful as a way of proving you've tried all standard strategies therefore something "more" might be going on.
teafor for my ds no amount of consequences or rewards or any end goal would stop behaviours that he didn't want to stop, and really they're behaviours he doesn't yet have the skills to avoid, it is more can't than won't, and, to be honest, he's never really been 'naughty', most of his less desirable behaviour has been around panic/overwhelmed/inability to communicate needs type stuff, so I work with him developing skills to communicate and find more appropriate ways of managing his emotions.
Fantastic thanks for the replies its helpful hearing others experiences.
It is bit unusual with ds, in that there is no denying that he is not nt (most likely going to sp sch in sept) everyone involved with him definitely knows he has sn but it's not been clear whether it's asd at the root or not. Which I think is a bit unusual that he is not high functioning but still not been diagnosed asd or not at 4.5. So I have no need to prove that something is amiss but it is very useful for me to pick apart what may indicate asd for the assessment.
The things that concern me about using 1,2,3 are
1) that he is not motivated by any consequence! There is nothing I could remove that would be an issue for him other than things I am not prepared to use for punishment as they are used to calm and soothe. The time out may work though if I can just use that only?
2) that if I do get it wrong and count something out of his control it would do more harm than good?
Have not had a chance to look at links yet am off to do.
The 5approach looks like the approach that sits most comfortably with how I see ds and most of his behaviour. Taking preventative action and understanding the triggers. I did a parenting course for children with speech and language problems which was very useful but was told afterwards the triple p would probably not really be appropriate to ds as he is not developing typically.
I think like KlienzeitI may try it in combination but just use it for the things I consider very typical toddler 'naughtiness' that he is just doing at a later age
I tried 1,2,3 Magic when my DS was a similar age to yours (before I knew he had ASD) and it didn't work at all.
He sounds similar to your DS in that i have never found anything that effectively works as a consequence, either in the form of positive motivation or a sanction.
Also I found that putting him in his room for 4 mins wasn't anywhere near long enough for him to calm down, and actually made it worse in the long run as it used to send him over the edge.
I'm sorry to say i haven't yet found anything that works with my DS, so i can't really advise you of any positive strategies. good luck!
Actually just re read your last post too PolterGoose and certainly ds has many behaviours out of his control at present snd I agree with you. He can be very aggressive, to the point where before I decided to pull him out of pre school they had to cordon off an area and remove all other children as he was having a meltdown an kicking, scratching and throwing chairs. These are clearly meltdowns and related to anxiety and inability to recognise and communicate his feelings and no amount of 1,2,3 is going to deal with that.
I don't know! I suppose I was thinking for just things I know he understands.
Just seen your post Sahkoora thanks. That's interesting thanks I think that may be the case here too.
Hi skimming I've got a dd who is four and at special school
She has autism and I'd very like your boy from the sounds of it in that she is like a two year old . I'm just trying to work out what causes some of her behaviour certainly transitions are a big issue
Thanks for the reply polter. I can see counting for behaviours for which there is no control not working at all. For us I only do it for flat out naughty behaviour or, more often defiance. IE not doing something I'm asking him to do that I know he can do with no problems.
Hi autumnsmum thanks. Yes I know certain things that trigger but sometimes I'm trying to unpick the last few hrs to see what could of happened.
teafor1 that's exactly the sort of thing I thought it might work for too. actually this thread has been very useful in thinking where it might be worth trying and reminding myself what other strategies could be used.
Having read a bit about it, I can only see it irritating my children.
Counting can be useful though, to tide you over transitions. So when you are about to "leave" you say we will be going in 5 minutes, you need to get ready. Then at 3 minutes you say "only 3 minutes" (and maybe remind to put on shoes, or have a last go). Then "1 minute now". Then "We are going" and leave.
If they are going to have a meltdown - it will probably happen at the 5 minutes, which at least gives you a bit of time to recover the situation.
mummytime for leaving places I use the alarm on my phone or a sand timer. The alarm is astonishing really how it works for my ds he knows when that sound comes its finished and I usually verbally count it down too.
My children have all really struggled with moving from a to B. One of the NT ones can spend a long time just getting out of the car, just an alarm wouldn't help - they need time to get used to the idea.
But everyone is different.
The 1, 2, 3 magic thing reads more like the US "three strikes and you are out" policy. I prefer to time out straight away, or if its something minor but happens so often as to really irritate, to place that in a ban (such as the use of the word "bum" when my DS was 5).
Mummy time sympathy with the bum thing that stage can be infuriating . I've not tried time out with dd2 merely removing her from situations
Total failure with DD (my hunch is ASD) and also a failure with DS, who seems to be NT but I've had my doubts (as has his auntie who works in mental health).
Reward charts are also a waste of paper. Even the school parenting support lady shrugged her shoulders and said "oh well, I guess he's a child who rewards don't work for ".
no shit sherlock, I knew that before you suggested I try it again.
I tried 123 magic with ds when he was three. This was on the advice of my HV.
I tried. Timeouts took sodding hours.
Also, we found that at the merest mention of time out Ds got more/stressed and his behaviour worsened.....
Same with dd.
In order to access camhs I have to self refer to the children's centre where they will offer me a place on the 123 magic course..... me saying I have used it isn't good enough apparently. I'm still trying to summon up the mental strength.
1-2-3 Magic was the only strategy that worked at all to manage DS2's behaviour (ASD/ADHD). It took much longer to see results than it did with the other three, but I am so glad we persisted. I had four children in five years and only have two hands. The results of 1-2-3 Magic are that I was able to leave the house with them all (e.g. to take DS1 to school) and still keep DS2 safe.
The no shouting aspect is really beneficial for DS2 as he has hypersensitivity, so if I don't get angry with him or raise my voice then it means less anxiety for him.
neverputasockinatoaster = do keep a diary & show it to he children's centre when you self refer, it may mean you only have to attend the first week .
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