David Urani or Ruth Birnbaum…?

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

Can you share your experiences of them please. Trying to decide who to go for.. TIA

[NewBlueCoat]

We used David Urani. It made sense, given the ABA co nsultant we had, and the lawyers we were using. They were a well known team at the time.

It is a gamble, as he will not recommend ABA if there is any other alternative, but it paid off for us (although nearly didn't - he was with dd1 all day, but it took until well after lunch for him to be convinced that ABA was the only suitable way of educati g dd1)

I found him efficient, and he certainly kows his stuff. We had the added bonus that the placement the LA was recommendign dd1 stayed at he had experience of, and thought one of the worst examples of ASD specific placements he had ever come across.

I would say if you are sure you have cast iron proof that ABA is the most suitable form of education for your ds, then go ahead and use David Urani. If there is any doubt, then maybe not (I know a family who lost at Tribunal due to DU's recommendations and report).

I have no experience or knowledge of RUth Birnbaum, so can't help you there.

[wetaugust]

We saw Ruth and I was very impressed with the way she dealt with a very anxious DS. Her report was very comprehensive. She will visit school and attend Tribunal if required. Had we ended up at Tribunal I would have felt very confident with her on-side.
I have no idea where she stands on ABA.
She's written books about SENs (available on Amazon)

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

Thanks NBC, your post cleared up a lot of things for me and has been very helpful as always, much appreciated.

Wet, I did speak to someone from her office, but hadn't thought of asking where she stands on ABA. Can she advise parents on a particular school or the type of schools. For e.g. She is not far from us so will she have knowledge of schools in the borough or just types of schools etc.

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

on and thank you to Wet as well off course.

[bialystockandbloom]

We used DU too, due to his knowledge of ABA. Don't know of RB I'm afraid.

Ditto what newbluecoat says, DU is unbiased, and won't recommend ABA unless he really does believe it is best method. But the advantage is that he understands it and is not prejudiced/ignorant about it.

He gets very booked up though (though did move his appt for us forward due to cancellation).

[NewBlueCoat]

if you have any further questions, prof, please do ask and I'll try to remember - was 4 years ago now

I would be happy to send you a copy of his report, if you want to see what type of report he produces/style etc?

[StarlightMcKingsThree]

I have used a number of EPs including DU. I would say he when it came to integrity he was the most unwavering. If you want a clear understanding of your child's problems with no sweeteners then he's the guy.

If you have a clear favourite school-wise then he will only recommend it if he agrees and tribunal panels know him and know more than any that he will not tolerate parental preferences. He is an extremely powerful ally in tribunal if he's on the same page as you.

[jiggles01]

We also had Ruth ( local to us ) and would definitely recommend her ,though not cheap!
We visited her clinic and she ds school ,very long detailed report .She recommended school which we had not even considered as we did not know his needs were so complex .
Lea coceded 2 months before tribunal and he is now at said school -ooc resi special school.
Her book is a must

[wetaugust]

I heard that she slays them at Tribunal jiggles. I would like to have seen her in action We had to travel over 120 miles to see her - and wait 5 months for an appointment

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

Bialy But the advantage is that he understands it and is not prejudiced/ignorant about it.

My intention wasn't to mislead but I should admit that we have seen DU over a year ago and at the time, he recommended a particular type of ABA(VB). but we changed to a different provider soon after one who practises the kind of ABA he specifically recommended against. (DS is doing well with this new provider by the way, so we know it was the right call) Do you think he will hold that against us if we were to book him again?

P.S. Please accept my apologies for drip feeding , we are very close to finalising the statement so I am trying not to say too much here.

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

Wet we are getting an appointment after about 4 months so not much change there, while DU is available next month..

[wetaugust]

Worth waiting for imo.

[StarlightMcKingsThree]

It won't go against you. He has backtracked on his past recommendations with us on the basis of new evidence, new observations.

I have no idea whether he has an ego, but I have found him quite brutally honest and evidence-bound.

[NewBlueCoat]

that's a tough one, Prof.

in essence, though, DU recommended ABA for your ds before. This will be because he had no doubt it was essential (he doesn't recommend otherwise). This has not changed, only the style of delivery.

When he recommended it for dd1, the setting was very much part of that (for her, given her dificulties at the time). Onetheless, 18 months later, when that placement ended, he had no reservations about recommending her current placement, which is a very different style, just by it's very nature, from his original recommendation.

Did DU specifically advise against the style you changed to? As if not, then no conflict, surely? (but understand your dilemma)

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

Thanks Wet. One of your posts somewhere was the reason why I started thinking about RB, because I have no idea where ds is likely to end up in. At the moment, it is just a guess from us so if someone unbiased can clarify what type of placement will be best for him, it will allow us to plan our next steps.

[wetaugust]

She did suggest a type of placement and put it in her report. She also gave us some possible schools to look at.
It was my solicitor who sent us to her. He always used her.

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

He didn't advise against this approach but rather recommended the other one. Anyway you know what, I am going to win the Euromillions tomorrow and then I won't have to choose…[Grin]

[NewBlueCoat]

sorry to break the news, Prof, but the win is mine

got secondary transition looming, and may well need the backup funds

[ProfJamesMoriarty]

[hangrymum]

Sorry to be ignorant but what does ABA stand for? I’ve been recommended both RB and DU in another thread so this thread is really interesting to me. I’m looking for a good EP to do an up to date assessment for my son with ASD and severe Dyselexia. We’re going for funding for a particular independent Dyslexia school, we know it’s right for our son but are pretty sure the LA will disagree (obvs). I’m still learning the lingo so just wanted to find out what ABA stands for as this thread is very relevant and hugely helpful. Thanks in advance if anyone can explain what it means to this old fossil x

[BlankTimes]

Google is your friend, try typing ABA Autism, here's one random hit which is about as old as this thread

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/29/specialeducationneeds-autism

It's a controversial intervention, seen as trying to make autistic kids "normal" (I hate that word) by training them with a treat when they carry out an action that's preferable to their trainer. In very loose very general terms as I understand it, the American attitude to Autism is to treat it as though it's a disease to be cured. The UK attitude is to accept it's a neurological difference and use interventions to cope within the NT world.
NT = Neurotypical. ND = Neurodiverse.
I've watched a couple of videos on ABA and thought it was treating kids like dogs but you may think it's a fabulous approach and want to do it with your son.
As a parent of an autistic child, you have to decide what you think is best for your child. Just because I'm not a fan of ABA doesn't mean it wouldn't be great for your child.
Research as much as you can before you decide which approaches will be best for your son

[HateTheUnknown]

I think we are searching the same things hangry!
It's applied behaviour analysis. It's a type of therapy used commonly with children who have ASD. We are running a home programme and looking to get ours funded through EHCP - that's why we are looking at these EPs

[GnotherGnu]

For ABA, I'd recommend Lisa Blakemore-Brown.

[LightTripper]

Building on what BlankTimes said, I think the problem is ABA encompasses a load of different things. In particular, as I understand it, it's core is:

• Breaking down skills into achievable components (which is very useful and I think most people would be hard pushed to criticise - it's very much like what a physiotherapist does teaching somebody to walk, but for social/communication skills); and
  
• Rewarding for "positive" behaviour and "withholding" rewards for "negative" behaviour.
  

The second one is the controversial bit to my mind, and can become like doing tricks for treats. There are even cases in the US of institutions using electric shocks which obviously brings the whole thing into disprepute. For a lot of people it has nasty connotations of "gay cure" therapies (and it's based on the same underlying research).

That's particularly the case using things like food or withholding attention as a motivator. If you use just positive feedback (looking happy, clapping, or whatever) or star charts then it's less different to typical parenting in my view, and less problematic (though maybe also less effective for some children!)

Then I think it makes a huge difference what you are using it to achieve. Something that will definitely help your child (e.g. toileting or stopping self-injurious behaviours) I think it's hard to disagree with as it makes your child more independent and less vulnerable. If you use it to stop things for the parent's benefit rather than the child (non-injurious stimming is the obvious one) is I think very hard to support. Then there is loads inbetween where I'm really unsure of the ethics. We have been using it to try to help DD socialise more. On the one hand, she seems motivated to do this and I've read accounts from several autistic adults saying they were glad to be pushed a bit outside their comfort zone to build these skills. On the other hand, other autistic adults have said that being put through ABA made them feel like their true self was broken/flawed/not acceptable to their families, with all the obvious mental health repercussions that brings.

Personally we still use an ABA consultant, but we deliver everything ourselves so we have full control, try to do it only in natural/fun settings (nothing stuck at a table - just use the techniques in day to day life), and we try to think very hard about whether the targets are really for DD's benefit or ours, and only do the former.

It's hard as there are so few studies of the longer term psychological impacts or impacts on well-being. So it really feels like this generation of parents are flying a bit blind and we just have to read what we can and try to make the best judgement for our kids.

[Bibesia]

I recently heard about how ABA works with an acquaintance's child. She referred to the fact that the pavement on his route to school was being dug up using a pneumatic drill and that he found this very distressing and they had to avoid that route till the work was finished. So what she did with the help of ABA was a lot of work on roadworks including the use of pneumatic drills, so that he reached the point when he totally understood it, learnt to recognise the sound and accept it, and indeed got to the point where if he heard one in the distance he wanted to go and see it.

I could see her logic: surely it makes sense to help children with ASD to cope with things like this than to spend their lives avoiding them.