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Ds obviously not getting enough sleep but wont sleep, confusing morning

(19 Posts)
PolterGoose Argentina Wed 27-Feb-13 21:10:10

I can second Hothead's recommendation of the Huebner books, I've done some of the temper one with ds and we did the whole worries one in half term and they are very effective.

If you are looking at a new routine and are visual timetable types (they work for us) maybe agree the routine with ds if he has that level of understanding and get him to draw or choose pictures, we've photocopied pictures from story books before to represent activities.

JeffFaFa Wed 27-Feb-13 20:45:28

Sorry grinnbareit didnt notice your post. School are pretty useless with everything they dont report any problems and when asked by gp to make referral didnt do it, ds is either on verbal or time out every day. He likes school but i think is starting to realise than not everyone wants to play with him. Today he was out of sorts again after school grumpy, really emotional crying one second then laughing and back and forth he said he had a good day but later mentioned that a boy punched him in the stomach and that someone else told him if he didnt get away from him they would stab him sad he 'forgot' to tell the teacher these things but someone else did apparently. He also mentioned that the classroom had been moved around and i think this may of bothered him he just didnt quite realise it. I have spoke to dh about the rough play and he's now onboard with that, we are trying to work on a new routine for ds' bedtime.

grinnbareit Wed 27-Feb-13 11:03:23

Jeffafa, there are so many other factors that can affect a Dc's sleep, how is he doing at school? have they reported any changes?, I agree with what has been said about the rough and tumble with your Ds and Dh, my Dh used to do this and I had to be the boring mum and knip it in the bud, my Ds tends to get extremely wired when he does this and my Dh always gets hurt grin. We spent forever going around in circles as to why our Ds wasn't settling at night slowly adding or removing things until we got to this new routine. But all in all we do think it was due to more pressure at school and lack off support. Saying that I'm undecided if his dvd was adding to things (keeping his brain ticking over when he was supposed to be relaxing) but when we decided to remove it he did keep insisting that he had to watch! he needed to watch it! so maybe it was taking his mind off what he was thinking about IYSWIM? which is why I suggested he had time with me instead.

grinnbareit Wed 27-Feb-13 10:37:16

Hi my sons usual routine is;

7.00 pyjamas on, supper (rules no tea=no supper, this took a week to sink in smile), tv time.
8.00 wind down time (Ds does an activity of his choice eg drawing, lego etc)
8.45 bed with heavy old fashioned blankets, story, tight cuddles, sometimes chats but mostly bear hugs! smile.
9.15 asleep...........bliss grin.
Not sure about his wake up time but I wake at 7.30 and he will be lying in bed awake when I go in, Ds insists on closing his (very creaky) bedroom door so we try not to go checking on him before this time.

He is waking during the night and switching his big light on but I don't hear him like I did before so he must be settling off soon after.

This was his original routine until we started making notes.

6.30 pyjamas on, tv time.
7.00 wind down time (Ds sat fidgeting on the sofa while chatting to me)
7.30 bed with a dvd, quick kiss goodnight.
9.00 still awake (dvd stopped roughly 8.10) shouting for a drink
9.40 still awake, coming out and standing on the landing doing nothing in particular confused.
10.30 still awake, talking to himself in his room.
11.00 asleep
2.30-3.30 awake, coming out of his room, talking to himself, flapping in his room.
6.00 awake for the day.
This was the same most nights, Ds was also having nightmares and night terrors around this time but we believe this was due to anxiety from his school day.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 10:05:45

I would really look at melatonin and the Huebner books and maybe reading to him in another room then him going into his room maybe.

JeffFaFa Wed 27-Feb-13 09:31:26

Hothead, i know 12 hours in bed is a long time but if i put him down any later then it will be 11 pm he's asleep and he will disturb DS2 with his talking, its not like we dont have to go to him in that time either, if he needs the toilet i need to go and take him, if he has a cough or wakes with a dry throat or sleep in his eye he has screaming episodes, occasionally we have accidents too so i need to get him up and shower him down etc, in the morning he can wake us all from 5am, its usually a battle to keep him in bed until 7 as he'l just scream, he wont just sit and do some drawing or anything if he's awake we all must be awake, its not that bad in the grand scheme of things i know and he used to be SO much worse but the problem i have is he is obviously tired in the day, yesterday morning must have been brought on by tiredness, after school he was still grumpy, yawning, had a headache, refused to do homework, snapping at anyone who so much as brushed past him, this morning he was in a better mood but still complained of not being able to turn dr who in his brain off last night so it must bother him.

I will take all ideas on board, i love the trampoline ideas i would never of thought of things like that, swimming he isnt interested in, he hates water and in the past has just clung to the side of the pool, is worse now after his teacher joked about throwing him in, he cant bear water on his face, i looked into private lessons but he refuses to go, im currently looking into horse riding for him though as he has done this previously through school and its one thing he seemed to love.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 22:20:49

You can rejuvenate interest in the trampoline by,

Putting a couple of blown up balloons with a handful of lentils inside on the trampoline (really noisy)

Drawing numbers/letters/shapes on the bouncy bit and setting challenges (ie can you jump your name or telephone number) we used paper stuck on but it got mangled, chalk might be better.

Add tons of balls from an old toddler ball pit (nb we still find them all over the place)

Music

Throw and catch angry bird soft toys grin

Simon says

Unless there are medical reasons not too, swimming really really helps.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 21:55:07

One of the Huebner books is on what to do when you brain gets stuck, it's very good. But if you're not reading him to sleep and he doesn't have melatonin or a relaxation or audio CD, he's going to continue with this wind down routine\activity.

I'm not trying to be critical, I would love it if S1 would be in a room on his own for 12 hours so I'm struggling to see the problem here. He does what your DS does only he's walking around in the evening or lying next to DP in the early mornings muttering away. It's just what he does.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 21:47:29

Perhaps liquid melatonin then to help with sleep onset, but he is unlikely to need more than 9-10 hours sleep.

Maybe an ipod too or something to occupy/distract him. S1 walks around for an hour downstairs talking to himself/playing a role in his head before I read to him.

Huebner's book are good on anxiety etc, he might not give you much feedback but I think it helps them to know there are other like them.

I still don't see what else you expect him to do for the hours when he's not asleep, S1 doesn't go until 8-9pm then does the talking thing from 6am some mornings, it's still more or less enough sleep over the week.

The nights when he's upset in the early hours are a problem but generally 9 hours overall is all he's ever had.

PolterGoose Argentina Tue 26-Feb-13 21:35:08

redhappy I had the same thought about being a caring carrot grin

I think the difference when we try to help each other is that we know that sometimes we forget the basics because we get caught up in whatever the current biggest difficulty is and sometimes need a reminder to go back to basics, or to try something again. I know that sometimes I need to be reminded to revisit a technique that perhaps didn't work before but might be worth trying again. The difficulty with professional caring carrots is that they tell us in a way that suggests we've never even considered their suggestion, as if because they are the professional they must know best.

JeffFaFa Tue 26-Feb-13 21:29:04

Thank you all im taking all advice on board, i have thought that dh's playing may be too much at bed time getting them to listen to me is another story though and tbh even if they dont do it ds is the same, its been like this every night for as long as i can remember no matter who the nightly routine is, i like the idea of trampoline with incentive will try that as hes not that keen on the trampoline after a minute or two he gets fed up. I have tried getting him to talk about his day before bed as i read that on here before but ds hates having a conversation with me, he doesnt understand what worry is i dont think, all i got out of him tonight is today was a sad day because he was grumpy and he wants to go to sleep tonight but wont be able to because his brain is full of dr who and it dosnt go off. (he is now asleep)

Hothead - he is 7, i cant keep him up any longer because he needs to have the talking time or it will go on even later, also he shares a room with ds2 and i need him to go to bed at the same time or he wakes him up

redhappy Tue 26-Feb-13 21:12:24

Having just read the caring carrot thread I realise my advice sounds just like one!

Brilliant advice from mrsLaughan think of mine as a little extra it wouldn't hurt to try. It really has been very effective with my ds.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 21:05:06

12 hours on his own in bed is a long time, and two hours to get to sleep on his own is a very long time, how old is he?

mrslaughan Tue 26-Feb-13 20:58:40

For DS - who is also sensory seeking (and used to be the same as your ds with sleep)the things that are key for sleep are proprioceptive - think deep muscle pressure, not necessarily just before bed, but over the course of the day.
Trampoline (it is proprioceptive)- at sometimes DS is not that keen - I am quite keen on incentivisation......100 big hard jumps, then dr who....
We also have what I call a moon hopper - not sure of its real name, but it is like a small Swiss ball with two handles..... He'll bounce on that while watching tv - or for 5 min before he does his homework
He uses a weighted vest while doing his homework, won't wear it at school as other boys don't have one. But uses a weight lap pad thingy.
And has the magic weighted blanket - it really is magic.
In terms of vitamins - he takes a multi, vit c , an omega and a vit b12 supplement. The b12 is specifically to help him sleep better , and it really does work/help, but I wouldn't reccomend stating that unless it is recommended by a naturopath/ homeopath - someone who can make sure you are giving the right amount and not too much!
Hth
With DS the key is that he is much better modulated - sensory needs meet, he just sleeps so much better..... Also his sensory needs are not as great, now he is better modulated.

PolterGoose Argentina Tue 26-Feb-13 19:31:55

No! Don't remove the Doctor!

Possibly punching cushions and rough play is too stimulating so close to bedtime?

We have little ritual at bedtime where ds (9 with AS and erratic sleep problems) discusses his day under these headings: a worry, something that could have been better, 2 good things, something that was better than expected and something he is proud of, it has really helped him get stuff out and dealt with before bed and we finish on the positives so he feels more positive, his biggest issue with sleep is anxiety so this really helps.

Usual stuff you probably do or already thought of, dp reads to ds for 30-45 minutes a night while ds fiddles with toys, lavender oil has helped, decent nightlight, comfy pyjamas to reduce sensory problems, wearing socks helps ds sleep too confused

JeffFaFa Tue 26-Feb-13 12:37:29

Thanks, only vitamin he gets just now is a kids daily vitamin will look into the others thank you, he cant swim and cant go a bike, we have a trampoline hes allowed out on it each day if he wants, dh also does lots of playing with him in the evening punching cushions etc, dinner time is finished about 6.30pm then its bath then bed so havnt offered a snack as he should be full really, also when i used to offer snacks before bed about a year ago he completely stopped eating the evening meal and just waited for toast/cereal.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 12:20:02

Vitamins (we do abidec and epsom salts plus fish oil, you can tell when hes taking it and when i haven't got off my arse to replace th bottle),

exercise (swimming best, then bike/trampoline, way mor than you would think),

more food (an extra snack before bed of something like weetabix)

Ds does this on and off now. Don't take the Dr away. shock. Or at least not till you've done all of the above.

redhappy Tue 26-Feb-13 12:10:16

This has been an issue for ds recently, and he has also been keeping his sister awake as they share a room.

I bought a little cd player for them on friday, and a selection of children's meditation cds.

I can't believe how well it's worked! He told me in the morning he closed his eyes because the lady told him to, and she said it was time to go to sleep!

Here are the cds I have

meditations include alice in wonderland, mary poppins

the magic garden

JeffFaFa Tue 26-Feb-13 12:00:44

Its been a strange morning with Ds 7 (sensory seeker waiting for further referral) ds loves school and this morning didnt want to go he said his head hurt, then his stomach, then his throat, then said he didnt know why he didnt want to go that his brain didnt know all this while crying, he was sobbing full on tears but couldnt explain to me why he was so upset, this lasted an hour i was about to admit defeat and keep him off when he said suddenly while still crying on my lap that he could maybe go, i said we have to go now if your going and he said he would, complete turnaround. Got him to school and he seemed off, didnt run over to play with anyone, pushed people who approached him away and was generally a real grump, but why the sudden change of mind it was like he flicked a switch he couldnt tell me why he now wanted to go either???

I can only presume this is tiredness, he goes to bed at 7.15pm each night he whispers to himself until about 9, he sometimes wakes and whispers again in the night and then hes awake from around 5.30am whispering again until he's allowed up at 7am, he's always made noises at night it used to be full on noises and talking but since the arrival of ds2 hes managed to get it to a whisper, he talks to himself about doctor who, i hear him repeating lines from the show. He told me yesterday that he want to sleep at night but his brain wont stop thinking about doctor who.
Dh thinks if this is the case we need to remove dr who from his life as its becoming to consuming, its all he's really interested in, all he plays and talks about, all he wants to watch on tv so without that he's got nothing really, he doesnt really get out to play despite really wanting to because he just doesnt imo have the maturity to be out there unsupervised, he doesnt show any interest in his other toys he said i can bin them and actually asked me for another fidget toy for his birthday. If i remove dr who whats he got and even if i did would his mind just home in on something else anyway and have the same problem?

Ive tried everything i can think of over the last 5 years since this started to keep him quiet at night, bedtime routines, positive rewards, punishment but nothing helps its as if he needs to do it to get to sleep

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