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Ds telling really elborate porkies...help!

(19 Posts)
OliviaPeaceOnMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 10-Dec-12 21:47:26

Hi Bochead
We have just withdrawn your post to avoid geographical identification
Thanks
MNHQ

bochead Mon 10-Dec-12 11:16:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PipinJo Mon 10-Dec-12 00:55:29

Well ds had 12 SALT sessions but I couldn't afford more Boc. The only SALT on ds statement is SALT comes in once a term (3 times a year) she writes exactly what she sees and that is it. I asked for social skills training but told it doesn't happen until ASD dc are 12yrs old (senior school?)

Yes I looked at Distar books when ds was 4 but at £££'s how do you afford them in so much debt over ABA/resources self funded a yr spent thousands on HBOT with travelling/hotels and for AIT/BioMed etc

Ellen the private SALT said ds self perception v poor so could not work on 'others' until 'self' sorted..never finished this!

Ellen I am going with ds is lying I just know! It's taken me a while to accept it but it is! Yes probably lies that would destroy a person's career!

God I'm so sad

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Mon 10-Dec-12 00:22:57

The boy I used to support (ASD) had got to the stage of lying to get himself out of trouble at about 11 yo, much later than NT. It was difficult to deal with because he had always told the truth before that and he couldn't understand why I didn't believe his (completely unreasonable) lies. He also used to be be very blunt about members of staff, usually the HT, if they had shouted at children misbehaving. He'd say things like, 'Mrs D** was being a horrible lady today, wasn't she?' We had to spend quite a bit time explaining that it was inappropriate to comment about teachers like that, to other members of staff.

So not quite what you are experiencing, but just to let you know that the sort of thing you are experiencing is quite common and it is a developmental stage, just not a particularly nice one. I suppose your DS's whoppers might get out of hand if he doesn't realise the consequences there might be if he is believed. So if he's accusing a teacher of being abusive etc, he may just be exaggerating a telling off and not realising how much trouble the teacher may get into. Or his teacher may be being abusive. sad

Without scaring him, I think you have to try to explain how serious it is if he's exaggerating, without making him too nervous to tell you the truth if things are happening.

I also used Language for Thinking with the boy I supported. Very good resource.

bochead Sun 09-Dec-12 23:41:04

Why has SALT for your DS stopped? Just asking cos our lads are the same age & I expect DS to continue till the end of primary school.

I often refer to the book "language for thinking" as recc'd by moondog. Can you get hold of a copy at all? It's very helpful for comprehension/imagination/consequences skills. I ran into massive problems knowing what to do once he got past the standard VB-mapp as the milestones listed in that doc only go up to age four, and as you know DS had no regular access to SALT till last year.

I honestly think a really decent ASD savvy SALT would be a more appropriate professional in the first instance than a shrink.

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 23:35:53

When I told OT about Principle situation she said it was Theory of Mind problem...a great massive fat LYING problem more like!

Probably being so blush and shock is stopping me Lougle. But very positively put, thank you will think about it.

God he got me to repeat Peter and Wolf story about 3 times at night and would laugh his head off in the summer hols (every night)

He learnt it well and would say 'What if I lied and said...' <laughing his head off>

Lougle Sun 09-Dec-12 23:26:12

grin Nobody will expel your DS if you are repeating his lies misconceptions.

What is stopping you from saying 'I'm so embarrased, but DS has been saying things that <aren't true> <are a gross exaggeration> etc., can we turn it into a learning excercise?

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 23:14:42

I feel it was what you said Lougle initially but now I think it is lying!

Yes Boc Big fat lies that can get people into trouble!

Maybe half lies and 'add ons' but still!

I can't ask Lougle 'Ds said ..... was this true?' OMG! I should be old enough to know it is not true! Ds would be expelled if I repeated them! This started weeks ago and it has been hard to keep lid on it without going into school guns blazing...wish ds had SALT maybe this would help? Or a psychiatrist more to the point?

His perception though Lougle as you say is way off NT!

Back to strict ABA at home from now on!

Lougle Sun 09-Dec-12 22:51:57

Ok, I'm sensing that actually, you're more worried that what you think is lying might actually be true, and that the accusations are quite serious?

Perhaps what you need to establish is a more accurate home/school communication of anything out of the ordinary that happens in the day.

For instance, DD1 was sent home with an accident book entry saying 'hit by a small whiteboard'. She was able to say 'X threw it at me...' However, if it had been the other way around, it would be have been quite disturbing to hear 'x threw a whiteboard at me...'

bochead Sun 09-Dec-12 22:44:49

Ok the above above is the one I'm hoping DS will hit within the next year. (not researched further than that at this stage, as it gets depressing measuring against "normal" tbh).

There are " lie steps" after that all connected with imagination, putting yourself in someone else's shoes that DO represent normal milestones against NT development and tbh are summat to celebrate in kids like ours. Moondog needs to come onto this thread to advise further - perhaps you could pm her?

I suppose I'm trying to say don't over analyse it beyond spotting the lies for what they are. The analysis then needs to be is the intention malicious or not. (and NOONE is a saint btw!) Then be firm about pointing out that it can hurt others if needed, or on helping him interpret his sensory perceptions correctly.

Reward truth telling as much as you can, to ensure that telling the truth is much more rewarding than not. You have the ABA experience to do this, and I'm really confident that you can btw!

You sound stressed out by it. One of those moments when it's tough being a single Mum? I don't care what anyone says, no child is a mythical "angel" ALL the time, every human on the planet has a few flaws. (Any teacher will tell you some parents of NT kids seem to drift along in a haze of wilful ignorance of what little monsters their pfb Tarquins can be at times.) DS drives me mad right now with his greed for food, and has started swearing. He also has the patience of a ghat with people he considers "dumb". That last one he inherited straight from me, so all I can is try and teach him not to make it quite so obvious iykwim.wink

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 22:05:51

No it isn't that level Boc you are aware of 'gentics' in ds family don't want to discuss here...yes worried Lougle lots of accusing people of X Y Z ie Principle!

bochead Sun 09-Dec-12 22:01:48

Mum enters room & encounters very young child, (aged 3-6 NT years) with face smeared in chocolate

"Did you take the last biscuit?"

NT child answers "No"
ASD child answers "Yes".

The child means no actual harm but is aware that he's been naughty and doesn't want to get into trouble. (Able to think of what Mum's reaction will be).

Is it this level of lying? If so, don't fret just keep teaching the same ol' right from wrong stuff you always do and the child will grow out of this stage bar the occasional white lie to avoid hurting the feelings of others.

DS gives perfect visual accounts of what's happened (his memory must be like a silent movie reel I often think), but I know it's pointless expecting him to accurately infer the motives of others, or to remember accurately what was said. I also know his interpretation of what was said can be WAY off beam at times. It's not lying, just his ASD perception of events, (inc a different sensory experience to that of his peers).

(I often think I'd have REAL trouble parenting an NT kid after DS, and frankly wonder how others manage to.)

Lougle Sun 09-Dec-12 21:45:50

It's tricky. You sound so worried sad.

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 20:48:00

Ignore last sentence...as it is either misunderstanding due to LD and sensory etc or lying. Hope it is latter as easiest to treat!

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 20:43:38

oh I don't know Lougle as ds 1:1 wasnt there..in toilet so how many dc in front of and if it appened at all? But ds had assembly that morning though and yes ds has severe sensory issues SPD, APD, Hyperacusis, Proprecetion, vestibular etc and modular? plus learning disability as well as ASD.

How about when only one person involved and I think he is lying too! God isn't this awful thinking this about one's own child...but in a way I hope it is otherwise sad

Lougle Sun 09-Dec-12 19:53:05

The other thing to consider, is that your DS isn't necessarily lying. If he has sensory issues, plus ?learning disability (sorry if he doesn't!) then his perspective will be very different to yours and mine.

If he doesn't have a good grasp of time, then it could have seemed like a very long time. If he did retch, then it would have felt interminably long. Also, the details of whether it was 'the whole school' could just come down to a linguistic issue - more than one child is 'lots' and 'lots of children' is the 'whole school.'

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 18:57:28

Oh wow Boc never thought this was NT! Forgot how NT's develop as no dc to compare and forgot my own childhood...surely I never lied confused I hate lying!

Oh this is positive then and a developmental leap...oh wow!

I was so used to ds being so 'literal' I never thought he could lie and 'make things up!' iygwim!

Thing is ds is so good at it I don't know when he is so I have a lot to learn on NT parenting blush

bochead Sun 09-Dec-12 16:01:07

You need to go out an buy a standard parenting book for NT's hun!

It's a totally normal developmental stage for most 6 year olds (so your DS is just a couple of years behind the NT curve) to start to "embellish" their stories, and learn to deny with poker straight faces that they did in fact steal the cookies from the cookie jar. As adults this ability translates to the ability to tell your best friend that "no your bum doesn't look big in that". In the worst adults this develops into "village gossip" types iykwim. (A personality type I loathe as gossips embellishing their stories causes emotional harm).

This doesn't mean you should ignore it, as obviously dishonesty in a malicious or nasty way is a malevolent human trait & all parents NT or not should be trying to foster positive personality characteristics in their kids.

The aim is that your child learns to tell the gentle white lies that smooth human relationships & are needed to survive in the real world and to steer the lying away from anything horrid iykwim. same as you teach a child that stealing is wrong or that violence is wrong except in self defence. Teaching and learning ethics needs to step centre stage at this emotional & communication developmental level. I know you well enough to know that teaching your son decent ethics is never gonna be an issue for you.

This is actually a really GOOD developmental milestone your son has reached here & one that sadly many ASD kids never quite reach sad (mine isn't there yet quite & frankly I'll be singing and dancing like Julie Andrews when/if it finally happens!). Most NT parents look back at their kids tall tales from aged around 6 with fond amusement, in years to come.

PipinJo Sun 09-Dec-12 10:27:03

Ok I don't know if it because ds still does not have enough language...or working memory and can't remember what happened in school...or Theory of Mind problems.

Ds has been coming home telling me shocking things tbh! I know they can't be true!

One example ds said Principle called ds to front of full school assembly and did ds top button up and ds (sensory with stuff round neck) was retching in front of whole school and Principle carried on until button done up! (principle did do ds top button up and ds did retch, but it was after assembly but still in front of other dc)

I dealt with it by buying shirts 3 yrs to old for ds so top button a good 1.5 inches away from neck and sewed velcro there and sewed button on outside so ds has 'top button' done up effect!

But ds coming home saying even worse stuff! Don't want to say anymore but shock

How do I deal with these either porkies or extended add 'ons'?
I don't want to ask school as involves them and I think it would get their backs up so much ds would have to leave!

Ds has ASD 8yrs old...help pleeeeeease

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