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4yr excluded for hitting. whats the process now?

(36 Posts)
meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 09:44:42

My 4yr son has started school part time and worked up to full time over the last 3 months. He has all the reports from OT, Ed Physc, Pead, SALT and a school entry plan.

It clearly states on every one that if someone invades his space he will hit out. He hit a TA who invaded his space and now is excluded.

I now have to attend a reintegration meeting tomorrow with the school reducing his hours again (so I will have to stop working again). He hits because someone is in his space not due to the number of hours he spends somewhere so I am lost as to why this is part of their solution.

My son has sensory processing issues, SALT, ADHD but the school would like him to be autistic as then they say they can get more funding for him.

If anyone has been in the same situation and knows what the process is and the likely outcomes I would love to hear from you as I am looking to make the right decisions for my son.

Have a look at IPSEA's website re exclusions:-
www.ipsea.org.uk

School may well be treading on dodgy ground here re excluding him in such a manner but other respondents may well be able to advise you further on this point.

I take it as read that he does not have a statement. I would be applying for such a document directly from the LEA asap. Again the above website would be helpful to you. They also have a helpline; I would call them or another organisation called SOSSEN.

alison222 Tue 04-Dec-12 10:40:54

If your son has all this involvement from outside agencies I assume he has an IEP and is on SA+?
In it does it note that he is likely to hit out if his space is invaded? If not I would have thought it should.

I know each school can write the IEP in whatever format they like but DS's always had an extra section other than the targets where they put notes for the teacher and TA to know. It was this sort of thing that would be included here.

Re the exclusion I couldn't say for sure, but my instinct is that if they are excluding him for a known disability then it is illegal. I think you should phone one of the charities like IPSEA or SOSSEN as Atilla advised and see what they say. Also I don't think that they can reduce hours like this - this counts also as an exclusion.
Please take some advice.

endoftherainbow Tue 04-Dec-12 10:47:14

I know your pain, I'm no expert and have loads to learn but your experience isn't too far from where we've been to date. I've pm'd you.

ChristmasTreegles Tue 04-Dec-12 10:58:06

I'm puzzled, as it seems an odd reason to exclude... just for hitting a TA once when TA invaded his space (which was apparently a known problem). Especially for a 4yo.

DS2 hit out when someone got into his space, and he was never excluded.

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 11:07:45

thank you all for your help. I will be looking through the IPSEA website for as much information as I can get.

My son does not have a statement but does have an IEP and is on action plus. On the entry plan it does state (as written by the SENCO) that he will hit, kick or push if his space is invaded.

Sorry for the slow reply ive been trying to teach my son seeing as school wont at the moment. Luckily he is only 4 so I have enough knowledge to pass on grin

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 11:12:05

Christmastreegles. I thought it odd to exclude him but from the school but I have to be honest he did kick a TA a couple of weeks back. If there are anyother problems the school hasnt told me yet. Feedback I get is as though he takes up too much of their time. He has level 2 funding which provides him with 1:1 care throughout the day but the teacher keeps telling me she has 30 other children to look after.

I can see that all the children need schooling but my son has 1:1 so I would have thought the impact on the other children would be minimal.

sickofsocalledexperts Tue 04-Dec-12 11:12:40

Sorry but I think you are going to have to work on teaching him NOT to hit. Even when someone invades his space. Or he will not survive in a crowded mainstream class - this is the one thing that will seriously harm his chances of a ms education. Also, how is he ever going to travel on a crowded train, or go to a busy shop etc?

At a talk I went to recently by a very eminent autism and ABA expert (Dr Patrick McGreevy) he described how he retrained a grown ASD man, who would full-on punch any carer who came close - a real problem, as you can imagine.

This teacher basically taught him to tolerate just a second of standing a bit close, then gave him a reward and praise. Then a bit closer, for a bit longer, then an even bigger reward.

Eventually he sort-of desensitised ths autistic man to his personal space issues, which has opened up his life incredibly.

I had a violent boy at 3, but not any more - due to behavioural (ABA) training like this. Please don't just accept it as a given, you can change it.

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 11:25:22

sickofsocalledexperts I agree with you as I think that the long term solution relies on me as a parent stopping him hitting. I have done exactly as you have described at home with chocolate buttons. He is rarely aggressive or violent at home or infact anywhere except it seems at school. I think that I will have to extend that to school somehow though I appreciate school is unlikely to be able or want to do this using chocolate buttons. They will have to use trains.

sickofsocalledexperts Tue 04-Dec-12 11:38:33

I don't see why they shouldn't agree to chocs, if they can see you are trying hard to solve the issue. Will they let you in to try it, if he has no one-to-one? Or can you demonstrate to the Senco? I do think you might try for a statement, as it gives you way more rights. Good luck!

sickofsocalledexperts Tue 04-Dec-12 11:39:20

I don't see why they shouldn't agree to chocs, if they can see you are trying hard to solve the issue. Will they let you in to try it, if he has no one-to-one? Or can you demonstrate to the Senco? I do think you might try for a statement, as it gives you way more rights. Good luck!

Learning70 Tue 04-Dec-12 11:40:09

Hi I think a combination if all the above advice really. Get to the bottom of what support he has and whether that support is exclusively for him or a shared resource. Check out your situation with IPSEA so you fully understand your child's rights. Be proactive about his behaviour problems and work with the school. If he had a named disability research methods to improve it. Let the school know that you understand your rights and explain to them how his issues affect his behaviour. Tell them about methods you have researched and broach how you can work together to minimise disruption to other children's education. Show them you are switched on and be polite and firm about it. Good luck, it's so hard going. I am in similar shoes and I wish I had taken my own advice a bit earlier!

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 11:50:49

Sickofsocalledexperts I did offer to come into the school at the beginning to show them how to get the best from my son but they said I could come in but I would not be allowed to help with my son only other children. The school has a food policy banning chocolate and also nuts. I think they could get the same result using trains as he is fixated with thomas.

Learning70 I have done alot of research and have passed all information onto the school. I have even paid for private experts to develop strategies for my son and school. The special needs nursery even tried to help the school but out of all of that the school just turned round told me not to be so anxious and that I should leave it to them as they are the experts. I am going to follow all the advice on this forum and be more assertive with the school and with my son.

starfishmummy Tue 04-Dec-12 12:09:22

School say "We are the experts" yet they seem to be doing nothing to help your son. I think you need to be asking them exactly what they are doing as exclusion clearly isn't the answer.

ChristmasTreegles Tue 04-Dec-12 12:16:53

They can't just exclude him and say basically that you have to "fix" it at home. They're SUPPOSED to be working WITH you to teach him social aspects as well as educational ones. The comment by the teacher of "I have 30 other students" would be a red flag, IMO, that they are not interested in the ONE student that needs their support.

I'm just horrified that they are so hardline about this - DS2's school was happy to work with me on things like this, and if he hit at someone, the 1:1 took him to a quiet room and allowed him to settle, and then talked to him calmly about "no hitting." For heaven's sake, they don't seem to be very tolerant or willing to accommodate him.

PolterGoose Argentina Tue 04-Dec-12 12:33:59

Is it an academy? Just pondering really as the school's approach is pretty awful, and this is exactly the sort of response to children with SNs that was expected from academies...

My ds has displayed awful behaviour in school and never been excluded. His school aren't great but they generally try to make it easier for him.

I think sickof's posts are maybe a bit harsh, it is really hard as a parent to teach skills that are needed in school. An inability to generalise from the specific, eg apply a skill you've learned at home to a school setting, is a fundamental difficulty for children on the autism spectrum (which seems to be a possibility for OPs ds). So, learning to not hit when personal space is invaded is not as easy as teaching it at home and then expecting the child to behave in the same way at school. The skill needs to be taught, learned, re-taught and re-learned in every situation.

I think, in your situation, applying for a statement ASAP would be the best option. I would also request an OT appointment ASAP to review and explore interventions that may work at school.

Best of luck with the meeting at school thanks

sickofsocalledexperts Tue 04-Dec-12 12:43:41

I agree that generalising a skill from home to school is tricky - that's why I actually think ABA-trained LSAs make perfect sense in mainstream, and are a cost-effective way of allowing more ASD kids to benefit from ms inclusion. But without a statement, or an LSA, meaty going and showing the staff or Senco the techniques she is using at home to stop him hitting is the next best thing. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 12:48:38

the school is a standard primary school with an outstanding rating by ofsted (not that that means much). His quiet room is shared by other classes so it isn't actually quiet and sometimes there are music lessons going on in there. to the schools credit there really isn't any room for his own quiet room.

Has anyone here ever moved their child to a different school? has that produced results? the reason I ask is that there is a country school nearby with only 30 pupils in the whole school so is alot quieter and with only another 5 pupils in the class maybe it would be that quiet that my son can cope? on the other hand they might lack expertise in special needs?

I will be following up on a statement as the first next step.

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 12:51:02

sickofsocalledexperts I dont think that you are being harsh I think that it is good honest advice. I will be following up getting a statement for my son and I think that going forward in order to let my son have the chance of a MS education that is the least I can do for the school and my son.

mummytime Belgium Tue 04-Dec-12 12:58:01

I would also contact your local parent partnership, some are better than others. If he is on SA+, then what + is he getting which outside experts have they called in, have assessed him, are advising them?

If you haven't already you need to start keeping a diary, recording what you say to them and when, what they say to you and when etc.

My DCs primary has created a quiet space, out of a tiny bit of space under the stairs (About big enough for 2 adults at most, I've had a meeting in there). Its tiny but cosy, and is a safe space for the children who need it (it also has a window on to the stairs so anyone passing can see in for CP reasons).

sickofsocalledexperts Tue 04-Dec-12 13:35:51

Have they tried a 'corridor' workstation? Worked well for my boy. Small school may work or may be snootier about SEN. The beauty of a bogstandard state primary is that they are now by law obliged to take "all reasonable steps" to overcome your son's difficulties. Only if he is still disrupting the 'efficient education of others" after all reasonable steps have been exhausted can they exclude him permanently. I would argue, charmingly, that letting you show them home techniques, or using the odd covert Choc reward would constitute perfectly reasonable steps.

endoftherainbow Tue 04-Dec-12 14:59:26

We moved to a much smaller school and it has worked in part as it is less stressful for ds. It is however difficult in a smaller school where they don't have floating TA support, have a part time SENCO and have limited experience in dealing with SEN. That said, we're happier there and they appear to be working with us.

auntevil Tue 04-Dec-12 17:54:07

Basic question meaty - Do you think that the school want him? (or any money etc that may be attached) or do you think in their ideal world that they do not want him there?
If their intention is to have him as a pupil, it is in their interests to work with you to 'resolve' in some way the issues around personal space.
If it is their intention to find a way not to keep him, I would say that they are working toward a 'H&S' issue - as in 'we cannot have him as he is a safety risk to both staff and pupils' - starting with exclusions and building up.

meaty Tue 04-Dec-12 21:35:19

auntevil. that is a very good question. His teacher has said that the school is the wrong place for him and the SENCO has said it can be the right place for him. I think the teacher wants him out and the SENCO wants him in. So the money attached to him must be a factor.

His teacher is great and honest as she is also looking out for the best solution for my son the SENCO I personally think is a waste of space and a monkey could replace her and get the same result.

mariammama Tue 04-Dec-12 21:40:07

The senco matters. This school sounds toxic. A good teacher is a blessing, but only for one year, and your DS needs more.

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