Mumsnet Talk

Nursery have set a target on DD2's first IEP (while we're appealing her note in lieu) to toilet train her. She's 3y 4mo and in nappies.

They want me to bring her in pants every day, with a big spare clothes bag so they can change her.

She's only there 3 hours a day. She can hold her bladder that long. She only poos once a day.

Once i collect her from nursery i have the rest of the school run to do, including collecting DD1 and wamning 20 minutes home.

She insists she can only wee or poo in a nappy, she will not try the toilet, she will not try a potty, she will not try one of those seats that goes over the normal toilet seat. She does not respond to stickers and rewards, she cannot be bribed with treats or food.

This is not going to work, is it? Or its just going to end in a pissy wet pushchair while i'm trying to get her home of an afternoon :/

Suggestions? HELP.

wamning? walking.

i think my fingers are as alarmed as i am :/

Nursery trained dd as it was written in her statement that they had to undertake a toiletting programme in line with my wishes and advice from the continence service.

What actually happened was I sent dd to nursery in pull ups, TA put dd on toilet at hourly intervals as part of her daily routine. After a half term they caught a wee, dd was rewarded and dd would then wee on a prompt.

The switch from her weeing on prompt just happened she went to the toilet by herself and that was it. I had no wet clothes at all. A week after her sussing the wee on prompt she was dry at night as well.

She's been going in pullups. She has only asked them to change her once.

I collected her one day sitting in a puddle of pee in the quiet room listening to a story. Her tights were wet and the floor was wet when she got up.

The nursery are making 'reasonable adjustment' by just accepting her as their rule is for all children to be dry by time they start age 3 ... :/

Leonie I've been told that no nursery would be allowed to refuse any child SN or not on the grounds that they're not toilet trained. That came from HV and ed pysch and portage. Doubt my dd will be trained either she sounds bit like yours.

So theoretically no nursery should have that rule anymore about being dry before they start

Ours does :/

I dont think they'd try and turn her away, but i certainly think they're implying that i'm failing as a parent because i havent taught her, etc etc.

I dont think they realise the stonewall i'm up against - the child patently refuses because a. i'm not surely sure she's ready, and b. its MY idea not hers therefore it will be met with NO iyswim

if we let her run around her naked, which we do as often as she wants to, she can hold her bladder for a while.

Then she either pees down her legs, or goes and gets a nappy.

If she's got a really wet one, she may rip it off and throw it. She may also ignore it.

If she needs to poo she goes and hides somewhere to do it. And then refuses to let me scrape it off her.

She poos korma sauce consistency almost every single day - only exception is if she's been eating a lot of biscuits or cookies...

dd1's nursery took it upon themselves to train her. she was a little younger - the target for them was 2.6 - and wham! toilet traingin starts.

she held on. all day, and regulated her drinking (something they already knew she had issues with) instead.

it took us a further 3 years to undo what they did. and even now - she is fully trained in the day, and has been dry for a good 2 years (probably more) - she has issues going at school, or with other people, and will hold on and regulate intake of fluids rather than go to the toilet at school, as it still stresses ehr so much (she is now 7.6, so 5 years after that bastard nursery screwed her up).

I would say - go with your instinct. you know her better, you know how she is likely to react. you have also managed htis once (I assume?), and so know what you are doing. do not let them force you and her into a position which may be far reaching.

Leonie - if they aren't going to accept her wearing pullups, then they are discriminating against her on the grounds of disability. Definitely cause to wave the DDA under their noses.

DD1 trained herself, sortof. One day it just happened, it wasnt something i had to force or 'teach' as such. One day, around 3 or 3 1/2, she just decided she was through with wet pants and started peeing on the toilet (no potties).

She was however, wet until 6 at night, and prescribed nappies on the NHS... She also still, at 8, withholds stool.

I dont know what to do about DD2. I am nervous to let them implement this because they'll think they achieved it just because she'll hold on for 3 hrs. But how do i get her home without her then asking for a nappy the second she leaves their grounds, and how do i deal with it? I'm not ready to force her to potty train, i dont feel she's ready or she'd do it - because she sees us all doing it and her peers doing it and will even recite 'poops going in the toilet' to you, but she patently will not DO it...

this nursery has no facilities to change her, they have no bins for wet nappies, it has to go outside to a skip.

i hate the place personally but until September, i cant physically get her anywhere else :/

imo, you wait.

and, as others have said, wave the DDA at them.

it is unlikely (again only imo) that she will do the same as your dd1 did, and one day just 'do it', and you might need a long term strategy. but one that you come up with, not the nursery (who are doing it for their convenience, not your dd's benefit)

my dd1's nursery saw it as an achievement that she was dry for a couple of hours at a time - erm, she was while in nappies, too - didn't mean she was ready ot train, or that she understood anythign that was happening (in her case, she did not know how to 'let go' and wee (or poo, for that matter) - she needed to be desperate to go. she could not consciously control bladder release. it took quite a while for ehr to learn this.

and she was so private, that she didn't want anyone else helping her in the toilet - she too would take herself off for a poo, and even now will tell us to 'go away, please' rather than waiting to help her with wiping/dressing etc.

from my experience, what will happen is that your dd2 will get used to holding for the time she is at nursery - will see that as 'normal' thing to do, and then extend that itme as her time away from you also extends.

at one point, dd1 woudl hold on from 7.30am until 5.30pm (that was her school day) as she had the misguided notion that was hat she was supposed to be doing, mixed in with control issues, and privacy etc. it was a total nightmare.

Hi Leonie

Sorry you're having to dealing with such stubborn people at the nursery. They should be bending over backwards to help you.

Re toilet training our DD was just as stubborn when it came to toilet training, I thought it would never happen. We used Pull-Ups (frankly I cannot see why they see that as such an issue, its not like they are hard to take off). I agree with previous posters, i'd push the disability aspect of things and threaten to take it to a higher level. DD could not be swayed at all and then it kinda just happened one day. She regularly used to do her number two's on the floor which was distressing for us and then one day just casually walked into the lounge and said 'I did a poo in the toilet' like it was no big deal. I'd love to say it was something we did but to be honest, she's so headstrong, she obviously needed to figure it all out in her head.

So I agree with you Leonie, if YOU feel she's not ready, don't force it and don't let them get away with forcing it too to make life easier for them. Good luck xxx

Crikey your dd does sound an awful lot like mine!!! Although we managed to change the Korma sauce nappies with a swap to lacto free mill so that's a help. Sorry they're being such a pita

well i've got til the 20th to mull this over - because she's been v ill3 times since January, she's not going back there til after half term, to give her little body a rest.

In that time i can also consult a few people on this issue and see what they suggest (CAT team person i know personally, autism west midlands, kids west midlands, etc).

Thank you all for giving me strength. xx

DS3 went to a nursery with no facilities to change. It was a rented building and they didn't have to right to change the facilities. They also didn't have the staffing to have 2 staff out at a time to change a DC.
BUT - they did not (and are not allowed to ) refuse all 3 of my DS who were in pull-ups right until the end, and they started reception year.
What they did do, was to include DSs in the general all children toileting routine. They queued up with all the other boys, quite often did nothing, washed their hands, sat down to snack time. No fuss made.
DS3 is in reception and still in pull-ups. He still goes to the toilet when the class goes - and follows a good toileting regime.
At home, he follows a good routine - and given plenty of time, but not every hour. 20-30 minutes after food, morning and evening. Plenty of fluids.
Don't make it stressful - as your DD will pick up on it and become anxious. She will get there in her own time.

Ds and dd went to school based nurseries where of course there weren't facilities but the LA arranged that space was made and a clinical waste bin installed, gloves, wipes etc as well as the collections from it before they started nursery. It was seemingly easy to arrange from what I remember and there was no suggestion that I had to train them on the school's say so.

its an independent nursery cos the state wont have her til September intake (Sept birthday, one intake per year, just missed it this year) so does that matter?

No - the one I sent DSs to was an independent nursery - It still has to work to OFSTED and legal criteria regardless.

have you thought about getting a care plan drawn up to cover toileting needs?

Get your GP to write you a letter to the nursery explaining that your dd is unlikely to toilet train in the near future and supporting you decision not to force her earlier. Ask him/her to refer you to the continence peeps.

As a little ray of sunshine ds was nowhere near at her age and fully trained at 4. Things change, children even those out of step with the rest of the population, develop. You sound a long way from a "failing parent" to me, you sound very astute in judging your dd's developmental stage and compassionate to her situation, lets hope the nursery can up there game to match yours.

DD1's been in big girl pants since 1pm today, its nearly 5pm. She will not use the toilet now. In her mind she can only pee in a nappy, therefore she can't pee.

She wouldnt even sit on any toilet but ours, and even then she couldnt sit still or try to pee.

The school will think cos she can hold her bladder for hours that she has achieved the target I think that's what annoys me.

She can keep from peeing pretty successfully; that doesnt mean she can use the toilet.

This is going to be a long journey, innit. Thanks guys x

ninja: a care plan? hmmmmm.

I just get the feeling this nursery are completely out of their depth. Firstly they insist they see nothing autistic about her whatsoever, and secondly they want to try and cold turkey potty train her :/

i'm not sure they know what they are doing tbh.