DS severely lacking social skills

[ilove8pm]

this is my first go at posting on mn, please forgive any errors! I am just looking for any views or guidance you can offer re my ds age 5. Since starting school (he is now in his second year) ds has been struggling very badly with the social aspect of it all. His teacher is pleased with his work in class and his progress, but he cannot manage play times or anything which involves social interaction. It seems to be getting worse with time. His reluctance to attend school is now resembling school phobia. Ds always says he cant bear social times but loves doing work in class.
Having just returned from a class gathering I am feeling really sad and worried. I watched DS tonight and he just does not know how to interact with others, like he isnt picking up on nuances in play and comes across as a bit odd. In turn his playmates spent the whole afternoon telling tales on him, telling him to come and sit with me, basically pushing him away.

From my brief description it may not sound severe, but it really is. I feel like something just doesnt add up and at the moment am desperate to help him. I wonder if it is a medically based issue or not.Does it ring bells with any parents reading it? Thanks for reading this long message, happy new year to you all p.s sorry if this wasnt most suitable place to post this.

[Niecie]

Hi there, Happy New Year to you too!

I was just wondering if you had spoken to the teachers about this. Do they think your DS has a problem or is just a little immature for his age.

I assume that you are considering whether or not he has some sort of autistic spectrum disorder (forgive me if I am wrong but that is what it sounds like). Have you considered taking him to your GP because if that is the problem he needs to be assessed and maybe given a diagnosis and a GP referral is the first step.

Does he have difficulties in any other areas - does he make eye contact? Does he find sport and physical activities difficult? Does he hate change? Is he obsessively interested in things?

I should declare my interest in your post in that my DS1 has Aspergers very mildly and he too finds social situations difficult although to be honest I think that often he doesn't even realise that he doesn't fit in.
I do understand you worries. My DS is 7 btw.

[KIMIfullofhopefor2008]

Welcome to mumsnet.
Have you spoken to his teachers about this?
Is it something that is only in the school setting? How about other social situations?

I have an 11 year old who has a massive IQ but the social skills of a dead fish, he was diagnosed with tourettes last year and is in the aspergus (sp) spectrum.

You could ask for the school to refer him to the school psychologist.

DS1 was and is fine in non school situations but is very bad at picking up on things like body language and so on.
It is sad to see your child not mixing and there is support out there, ask for it, the teacher is the place to start.
Good luck

[kaz33]

And me, my 6 year old also has mild aspergers I think (undiagonesed). He also finds social nuances very hard to pick up on. He is much happier with adult company, he makes friends as he is quite pushy and confident but then doesn't know how to maintain them. He overreacts to teasing, takes things very literally, doesn't know how to "blend" but just pushes in.

Have you tried a playdate, he might find it easier to interact one on one and that might give him confidence at school. He could just be very shy and need some help.

If he does autistic tendencies then you will probably have other concerns. It was in Yr 1 that things started to unravel.

[ilove8pm]

thanks for replying Niecie. Ihave spoken to his teacher, and it was a bit baffling. She wasnt very aware of anything outside the class. Her comment was that he was keen and bright in the classroom and she would ask the lunch staff to keep an eye on him during breaks. Since then when i have approached her (not in formal meetings, only casually before school etc) she is non commital really. I may be oversensitive but its like she doesnt want to be bothered by me really.

I have been toying with the idea of visiting the GP, esp recently as it has worsened and is very hard to get him into school every day now.
As far as any other challenges he faces, I guess they are:
very easily tearful and many tantrums daily.
hates change
actually good with p.e but very poor fine motor skills, cannot use knife and fork. cannot dress himself without help
worries alot
sees life from an 'interesting' perspective.
obsessively counts everything, which makes life tricky
cannot leave any task unfinished
tends towards being quite violent

can i ask what first alerted you to your DS's Aspergers, and how it was diagnosed? Also, is he in mainstream school? do they help him in any specific ways?
Thank you for chatting, it is a big help to know other parents empathise and are willing to listen.

[KIMIfullofhopefor2008]

ilove, I am ticking boxes in my head here, I would go to the school head with your concerns and ask to have a meeting with the Senco.

I have seen the film, read the book and have the t shirt, it all sounds so like DS1

[kaz33]

Hi ilove8pm - he does sound quite like my DS1. I started to really worry at the beginning of year 1, during reception I think they expect a lot of children to take a while to settle down.

My DS1 had poor eye contact, tantrums, totally phased out, violent, atrocious pencil grip, very sensitive to all outside stimulus such as TV, computers - phobias about buttons, zips, labels in clothes. Fidgeted all the time. Poor concentration except when engaged with his hands ie: lego/art.

Never had a formal diagnosal but have done lots of work with him privately as though I was worried no one else was. So in a strange position where we are helping him to cope in mainstream school, his school just finds his odd behaviour annoying and I was recently told he was a thug by his teacher. Certainly as he gets older (now in year 2) it is getting more challenging as his behaviour becomes more obviously different than his peers.

[ilove8pm]

Thanks for all your very useful replies. Its interesting and also encouraging to read of other chldren with similar tendencies. Kim, I think he stuggles both in school and other social situations, although maybe better one to one. I naively (sp) hadnt realised that my school would have a psychologist. in the new year I need to check that out and ask for an appointment. They definitely have a nurse because I rang her for some advice on this subject but she didnt get back to me! (in fairness she did eventually call but we kept missing each other's calls).
Kaz, sounds like my ds shares some traits with your ds. now i look back on things i am kicking myself that i didnt react more quickly. However, we too have found that it is only since full time school started that things have become much more pronounced. Its hard to keep ignoring his behaviour after a full year has passed and I can still be seen on a daily basis dragging him into school half dressed and doing his tie etc in the playground queue because we've had yet another battle to get there. And all those friends who last year were a bit young and tearful are all settled and looking at my ds!!! Maybe it sounds selfish but I think I have always worried that DS was struggling but I just wanted things to be 'normal' whatever that is! My DH and I both have a very close male relative with autism and are aware of some of the many challenges and struggles that can bring. I guess I have been an ostritch but it isnt fair to my DS and now I need to act to get him some help.

[Niecie]

ilove8pm - teachers are often non-comittal about AS in my experience as it isn't their field of expertise. DS's teachers often say that they don't think there is much wrong with him but then they admit that they are not SN experts but they don't have trouble teaching him so as far as they are concerned he is OK.

I wouldn't rely on them referring your DS to a psychologist as the only psychologist they can refer to is the ed. psych. and ed. psych.s can't diagnose AS they can only advise and treat (if appropriate). You really need to see a clinical psychologist. Usually what happens is that you get referred by your GP to a paediatrican and then see you and if they think it is appropriate, they refer you on to a clinical psych and we also saw an occupational therapist, speech therapist and had a hearing test too.

We first started having concerns about our DS when he was 3.5 yrs old. He was never a good mixer and tends to stand and watch people rather than join in. However, he started to pace the floor and flap his hands and his playgroup also noticed that he had started to withdraw and live in a world of his own. He was OK most of the time but at the time we were moving house and DS2 had just been born so I assumed it was all a bit much for him. After moving I mentioned I was a bit worried to the HV and she offered to see him at his playgroup and see how he was getting on. She found him withdrawn and not keen to interact with anybody who wanted to play with him. He simply didn't seem to know how to treat other people. She spoke to the GP who made the referral and 18 months later we got the diagnosis. It is a long process.

My DS also has problems with his fine motor skills (eating, writing, catching balls, dressing), he isn't keen on change (although he copes), he gets a bit obsessive about things (I have just had to read his illustrated atlas to him as his bedtime 'story' because he is interested in the places where it is already 2008)and he can be explosive although I am not sure that isn't standard 7 yo behaviour for some. He is quite bright though and an excellent reader so he does OK at school.

[Niecie]

I would also just say that the SENCO at DSs junior school which he started in September didn't realise he had a diagnosis and suggested getting him referred to a psychiatrist. - you would think she would know he needed a psychologist not a psychiatrist but there you go. She said that the ed psychs couldn't do much and was not keen on getting an appointment with them as I was wondering if there is anything they could do for the social skills. I don't have much faith in schools taking the lead in getting a diagnosis although the school nurse was helpful and also wrote a report for the paediatrican - she didn't think the ed psych. was much use either, not in the early stages.

[ilove8pm]

I keep repeating myself but thank you for the support. It feels like cyber hand holding that will give me the courage I need to visit the school again. I will make an appointment with the teacher to start with. Will he need different schooling if he is found to be on the autistic spectrum? can I just say that I reread my earlier comment and think it sounded quite rude. I am not trying to pass comments on what is normal, acceptable etc, just expressing my anxieties but realising they can sound rude once typed onto the screen! So I hope no offence has been caused sorry if it was.

[ilove8pm]

thanks, thats really useful Niecie. Did have little laugh because my DS has his illustrated atlas right by his side as he sleeps, right this minute! For all his bewildering behaviour I couldnt love him more. Sometimes I do feel like he is a little stranger to me, that I dont understand, but am smitten by. Its very sad to watch him trying to reach out and make friends but being rebuffed by everyone. My DD seems to understand him and almost translates for me sometimes, by explaining to me why he is angry or what he wants. She is only three, but she will name a fantastic diplomat when she grows up!! does anyone elses DP /DH worry about haveing their child diagnosed with things? my dh is reluctant for us to pursue this because he worries it will make life much harder for our ds

[ilove8pm]

oops she will make not name a diplomat!!!

[kaz33]

The way that I say it is, that whether or not he is Aspergers, certain of the tactics for AS kids work with him. Personally I think it would be easier if we had had him diagnosed, then at least the school has to take you seriously.

If it is any consolation - DS2 is settling into school brilliantly, because he has had 4 years dealing with his erratic though much loved big brother. At his parents evening, the teacher said his name and smiled

[Niecie]

Ilove8pm - sorry, took a while to pick up on your point about DHs. In my limited experience and from my unscientific observations of other people on MN it would seem that DH/DPs are more reluctant to admit that there is anything wrong, or at least, are not as quick to pick up on it. We mothers seem to be more tuned into our children than their fathers. Don't know if that is biological or whether it is the result of spending more time with the children (making sweeping generalisations of course).

I have some sympathy with your DH in that it is a bit of a double edged sword, getting a diagnosis if your DS is not particularly badly affected. I do think it may mean that the DC are treated differently and sometimes there is no need for this and it is better to keep things as normal as possible. On the other hand, you want your child to be treated as fairly as possible and not be labelled anti-social/lazy/unintelligent/trouble or whatever people might say if they didn't know there was a cause for the problem behaviour. I wasn't keen on having a label either but the clinical psychs felt that it would help DS get help in the future. On the other hand, my DS is more affected by his motor skills than his social/communication problems and I tried to talk to the occupational therapist about it last term as she said not to worry about a label, just treat the problems. It seems you can't win.

On the whole though, I think it is better to know what you are dealing with and therefore know where you can get help.

Does that make sense? I am rambling again!

[Unfitmother]

I have a 10 yr old DS who is currently being assessed as having ASD so have some understanding of your difficulties. If you get no joy from the school I would advise you to speak to your GP who may refer your ds to a paediatrician.
All the best.

[ilove8pm]

hi diffyear and ufmother, and hi again kaz and neicie.
Thanks for all the comments. Neicie I see what you mean about labels, I think you hit the nail on the head about the dilema. But one thing you said in particular about if they are diagnosed it helps when they are labelled as lazy etc really struck a chord thanks. Certainly in my own family my ds is known as hard work and bad tempered, several times he has been blamed incorrectly by relatives, for things that have gone wrong, only for it to turn out later he hadnt done them at all! Which certainly hasnt helped with his confidence. So certainly a diagnosis would possibly equip us adults around him to understand him and help him better. Your comments made perfect sense! Also you are right I do spend more time with my ds than dh does and am sure I am more aware of little seemingly insignificant things that happen.
Ufmother, I am thinking of heading straight to the gp for some more advice, as my ds headteacher is unfortunately not very approachable. Thanks for the advice about ginger diff year, sounds really interesting! Is it created by one teacher at your school in particular? Think I am going to have to don my 'thick skinned parent ' hat and go back into school and try to get help from tacher. So far not so good, but things can always improve right!..

[twocutedarlings]

Hi ilove8pm, fab name btw.

i just wanted to to add to the already sound advice you have been given.

My DD is 5 and was Dxd with AS in september of last year. Since getting her Dx there has been no negative effect whatsoever. Im just glad that we had the Dx just before she started school as she would have most certainly been labled as distruptive (at the very least). For me it was actually the not knowing that i found harder to deal with than the actual Dx IYKWIM.

FWIW your DS sounds alot like my DD also.

HTH

[PoinsettiaBouquets]

My DS(nrly 3) is waiting for further assessment but the paed who met him agrees with me that his social issues are probably Aspergers traits. We are hoping for a diagnosis some time if it means more help for him when he starts school. Plus it would make me feel like less of a crap mum when he goes on strike and rolls in puddles!
TBH it was a real relief when we met the paed - it meant we could forgive him a little for being so difficult and also ourselves for finding him so. He is v chilled out for an Aspie but is very self-absorbed and simply goes floppy if you try and force him to do anything he's not interested in. He doesn't play with others unless they are chasing him or tickling him. I always found him strangely cold iyswim as a baby, had to train him to do cuddles and show (or fake) affection.

Our family has a verb named after him eg. something might get Noahed if you leave it lying around!

[ilove8pm]

Love the verb PB!! (Also love your ds's name - very similar to my ds name!!) anyway, sorry waffling, was going to say thanks for these stories, I am feeling much braver and going to make apt with gp for next week when ds at school as guessing it would be inappropriate to take him with me! sounding more and more like my ds poss has AS or similar condition. Although interestingly, my ds was polar opposite of yours, PB as a baby. He could not seem to function unless was receiving physical contact, for first year slept on me at ALL times, day nap or night sleep. If took my face away from his he would bang his head on any surface around him. Theres quite a few shops in our town I still havent had the courage to return to since he banged his head in them!!

[gigglewitch]

hi just read whole thread and thought i'd post... whether any use or not

wanting close contact and head banging are also classic traits of asd.
if there is anything that these lovely mums haven't already helped you with, and if u think i'm any help give me a yell : i am a teacher and i am head of an education unit for students with ASD, been doing this for more years than i care to admit
i know the mum-worrying bit as my eldest son who is 7 has dyslexia, and has an IEP etc at school, but like with any aspect, once your child gets assessed and is given the right support, the sky's the limit. you will just have to be a bit determined and not be afraid to ask for exactly what you want, in many ways you know far more than his teacher and you should ask for answers to everything you want to know.

[Niecie]

Interesting what you say Ilove8pm and Poinsettia about how affectionate your boys are. My DS is pretty affectionate, loves cuddles but because of poor motor skills he didn't learn to kiss until he was about 5 yo (he would just do this dribbly thing where he put his mouth against your face but there was no movement in his mouth iyswim) and you still won't get a bear hug out of him. Ask for a cuddle and all you get is him drapping himself on you. He doesn't seem to be able to put any effort into it. His little brother is like a small monkey and will cling on for dear life which makes DS1's difficulties more apparent.

[Niecie]

Does anybody's AS child chew things by the way. DS has started (in the last 6 months) chewing anything that happens to get in him way. There are Lego bricks and other toys covered in teeth marks. I have to tell him off for chewing the cushions on the sofa and he seemed to spend most of Christmas chewing plastic wrapping from new toys. Drives me potty. Not sure why he has started doing this now or how to make him stop.