Stopping night feeds. Say something helpful.

(378 Posts)
TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 16-Feb-14 19:55:49

grin
This is partly a request for tips and experiences and partly a pledge.

DD is 1 yo. She bf to sleep at night.
Then wakes anywhere between 1 and three times, again bf back to sleep. I get that the feeding is a comfort.
I, of course am nearly dead from sleep deprivation/ disruption.
I am, from tonight <optimistic> going to stop night feeding. I'm going to initially drop any feeding before 1am, then move on to dropping any later feeds IYSWIM.
I'll be cuddling her, no CIO or cc, but no milk before 1 am.
Any tips?
I know I should like a wuss for doing it so gradually but she's only a baby after all.

Woodifer Sun 16-Feb-14 20:07:08

Are you co sleeping.?

Wear an "inaccesible" bra like a sports bra?

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 16-Feb-14 20:13:02

Partly co sleeping. If that makes sense?
Thank you.
That'll help with dh too grin

Selenium Sun 16-Feb-14 20:13:31

I managed to night wean my ds a couple of months ago after being in a similar situation to you and I'd had enough! My ds was 12 months when we gently trained him to sleep through the night. I decided to feed just at 1am, like you have. My dh and I split the night duties so that one of us went into ds if he woke before 1am and comfort back to sleep without feeding!) and the other did the same for the second half. We would sit by his cot and tell him it was sleepytime and ask him to lie down. Sometimes we would have go lie him down until he got the idea! If he got really upset, we'd pick him up for a cuddle.

The 1am feed I did as a dreamfeed and then gradually shifted it earlier over about a month before stopping it completely.

It took about 3 nights and at first he actually woke up more often than normal and we started to despair but then he miraculously started sleeping through! I think sending dh in some of the time was key, to be honest. Do you have a dp who could help?

I still feed to sleep but now only at bedtime, not in the night. A few months ago I wouldn't have believed it! Good luck.

laughingeyes2013 Sun 16-Feb-14 20:13:45

Once we realised night feeds were just for comfort we offered a different type of comfort (dummy), and within just a few nights things had changed dramatically. By about 2 weeks he was sleeping through and we haven't looked back!

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 16-Feb-14 20:39:15

Ah thank you.
Dh would go in but she won't settle for him angry envy
I am considering a dummy. But a bit worried about swapping one comfort or another that she woud still need help with. hmm

Parliamo Sun 16-Feb-14 20:46:04

I sent my DH in with a cup of cows milk. She got the idea after a few nights and stopped waking (for milk anyway) she still doesn't reliably sleep through, but I definitely felt better for not feeding.

You really should make your DH do more. I spent the best part of three years doing all the night wakings and early mornings because kicking him out of bed was harder work than doing it myself. I was wrong, after a major crisis and our third non sleeper, he does much, much more. He doesn't seem to suffer with the disturbed sleep and everyone is much happier now I'm not quite such a grumpy witch.

Selenium Sun 16-Feb-14 20:46:55

I tried feeding with a comfort blanket tucked in with me whilst bf ds and then popping it with him in the cot, in the hope he might adopt that as a comforter but he wasn't interested! But might be worth a try. I wouldn't have thought that a 1 year old would accept a dummy if not already used to it, but you never know.

Seriously, my ds wouldn't settle for my dh either but now does after a lot of persistence! I LOVE the fact that the pressure isn't all on me now and dh could handle it if ds wakes up. At first, ds cried a lot and looked for me, but eventually found his own way of settling for dh (my dh would cuddle him and ds would snuggle into his shoulder and go to sleep). Eventually dh could just pop him in his cot and stand next to the cot and ds would just roll over and go to sleep.

I do think that you have to go through some difficult nights to get to a better place - i.e. there will be some crying, but I found it much easier knowing that we were there with ds to reassure/cuddle whilst he was learning to go to sleep in a new way.

mellojello Sun 16-Feb-14 20:48:05

Ive bought a sippy cup with water in it tonight, in the hope of putting DD of BF!

TwirlyCat Sun 16-Feb-14 21:54:33

I very gradually night weaned my DD from BF at night with no major upset. At 12mth old she was feeding several times a night, obviously for comfort rather than hunger. First night feed was at 10pm but occasionally she would go longer, so I made a note of the time then only fed at the later time eg after 12. She then occasionally went longer than 12 so moved the feed to 2am, then 3am then 5am. Now at 14months she has no night feed. Unfortunately she still often wakes a lot (but better than it was) we settle her with a back rub/ssshhhing if we are lucky or if not a sip of water and a cuddle. At least I can share the wake ups with DH now.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 06:34:35

Thanks again.
Last night was a bit of a fog. I think the first wake up was after 1 so I fed her. DS was already in with us by then hmm but at least he was asleep.
Instead of bringing her into bed though I persisted and sat in the rocking chair in her room, then put her back in her cot.
She woke (and fed) again at 5:20 but she slept in her cot again until just now. So, not awful, but I haven't had to refuse a bf yet.
I think I am going to be a bit firmer about insisting on a lie in, maybe on a Saturday. Usually we all get up pretty early.
Mmmmmm.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 06:35:34

Ahh, she's so cute toddling about.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 06:38:25

twirlycat I hope things improve soon.
My DS was a shocking sleeper. After DD was born (when he was just over 2 and I had recently stopped bf him at) he slept through the night.
Since nursery though he's been unsettled and comes in to us most nights. But he just cuddles and falls asleep. Good luck.

laughingeyes2013 Mon 17-Feb-14 09:14:35

I don't know if this helps but I was told by my health visitor that a baby doesn't know which feed is ok at night if you only drop one.

She seems to think they're confused as to why you'd offer a feed at one wake-up overnight (say 1am) and not the other (say 3am). If they're calling for comfort in the dark they won't get which round they're on; the feed or the non-feed round.

So we made sure that up until 6am there would be just a dummy, but we were lucky it worked (and that he can put it back in himself if he wants to now) and I'm not sure what we would have done if it didn't work.

Oh Andre other thing is that my husband went in and popped the dummy in. Milky mummy stayed away as that seemed to irritate him. Trey do say they can smell the milk, don't they? Maybe that was why it worked so well too.

Booboostoo Mon 17-Feb-14 09:53:09

I night weaned DD at 2yo but we were co-sleeping at the time and I continued that.

At 2yo she had some understanding so I explained to her the rules (milk for sleep then no milk till 5am when it was 'morning'), then repeated the rules everytime she asked for bf during the night and still slept with her, picked her up, rocked her, etc. The first 2-3 night were pretty awful but eventually she accepted it. In time I extended the no bf rule to 7am and as she started to sleep through I also stopped co-sleeping.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 11:47:50

i don't expect her to know the difference between the times. I just think it made sense to remove one feed at a time rather than go from 3 feeds a night to none.
I think i might pop if i went all night without a feed.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 11:49:08

and i will still comfort her. Just not with milk.
anyway, we will see.

TheGreatHunt Mon 17-Feb-14 11:54:12

Have you ruled out any issues like tongue tie, intolerances etc which might be waking her?

My dd woke up loads as did DS and I fed to sleep a lot. Then I would just try and cuddle to sleep for every feed I could get away with until she really wanted one. Gradually we got down to no feeds.

But I also have to watch her diet - she fed for comfort because she was uncomfortable eg tummy wind if she had too much brocolli/dairy (for example). Or if teething etc etc!

LauraPalmer Mon 17-Feb-14 12:18:19

Watching with great interest. DS is one and also feeds several times a night...

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 19:10:06

Yes greathunt she's definitely teething.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 19:12:52

Hi LP
Just doing bedtime feed now.
I should probably stop bf to sleep tbh but I saw some posts recently saying that it hadn't helped and i am desperate for them to go to sleep. DS here too drifting off next to us.
OMG I am so tired.

Scrumptiousboy Mon 17-Feb-14 19:42:23

Good luck. I recently night weaned DS, but used the gradual method whereby I reduced the time allowed feeding each night - night 1 5min, night 2 4,5min and so on. Sadly I still have to feed DS at 3am as we just can't seem to be able to get him back to sleep at that time - feeding him for 5min instead of staying up for 2 hrs is just purely for survival. I will try and tackle that later. If he now wakes at other times, he happily settles for DH, where before he would scream the house down.
Interestingly, Millpond Sleep Clinic say that you can either reduce the time, like I did or extend the time between feeds. I think you're ok doing what you're doing. Your LO will let you know if it's not working grin

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Feb-14 19:52:27

Thanks scrumptious. If she really won't settle I will feed her and use your technique of reducing the time (using the "pantley pull- off").
I just need to try to make some change. It's so exhausting. Especially with them both getting up at 6. Mornings have me stumbling about. I'm ok by 730 am but then by 6 pm I'm flagging.

Ahhh bla bla bla.

Scrumptiousboy Tue 18-Feb-14 19:50:26

How did your night go? My DS is ill and teething, so he was crying through the night :-( I think I got all of 2 hrs of sleep...zzzz

theyoniwayisnorthwards Tue 18-Feb-14 20:02:00

I've been struggling to night wean my 15 month old in the hope of more sleep and we do seem to be making (slow) progress. We had DP do three nights of all the night wakings over a weekend, he offered water and cuddles and slept on a blow up bed in DS's room. I took over again then in the hope that the habit of boob at night had been interrupted and again I offer water at night. He usually downs it so I think he's thirsty and was in the habit of taking in most fluids at night time, I have been more diligent than before about making sure he had plenty of water during the day and think it's helping, also make sure he has a nice big dinner even if that means offering yogurt if he won't eat whatever else offered.
Last night he slept from 9-ish through to 4.30am, I feel better already.

LauraPalmer Tue 18-Feb-14 21:33:10

Now that I'm offering water before his many night feeds (baby steps) I've also noticed that DS is surprisingly thirsty.

Scrumpy - our nights sound sadly similar!

Hi, AC - how are you holding up? wine

I think I've decided to tackle self-soothing (ie. Sleep Training) and hope that DS night weans of his own accord...

<hopeful>
<naive>

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Feb-14 06:39:59

I can't remember much of Monday night scrumptious grin
But she woke up after 1 for her first feed, then once again and then slept until after six. So not too bad.
Last night she woke at 245. I fed her and put her in her cot. She woke again at 5. <searches for "shoot myself in the head" emoticom> and fed but didn't settle afterwards. I have to get up at 6 for work.
So ATM the pre1am feeds are not appearing. Which means I need to tackle the Pre 2am feed. I haven't yet had to try to get her to drop one IYSWIM.
theonlyway a small increase in sleep makes such a difference doesn't it?
Anyway. Let's see what tonight holds.
How was everyone else's night?

LauraPalmer Wed 19-Feb-14 11:14:25

Soooooo, last night went shockingly well. hmm

I put DS down a bit earlier than normal probably because he's so exhausted from not sleeping and recently dropping one of his naps and the single thing I did differently was to make certain he was still awake after the pre-bed BF. I put him into the cot and left the room. He cried for about a minute then fell asleep. He did have a brief wake up an hour later (6.45ish) but had resettled himself before I could get up to his room.

There was another short wake up around 9.00pm (which usually happens every nigh) that DH dealt with. Then DS slept until his normal 11.00 feed time. I was quite sleepy so I did the easy thing and let him BF-to-sleep. (Bad mummy!)

Next wake up was at 1.40 (normally 2.00); DH went down to settle him but I ended up going in at 2.00 to BF. Did the same thing as when I put him down at the beginning of the night (awake, not drowsy from feed) - he cried for about a minute then I picked him up and cuddled him with a dummy but NO BOOB. When he seemed more settled I placed him back in the cot awake and left him to it.

He then slept until 6.50am!!! (He normally rises around 6.00)

The two things I did differently were to take him off the breast before falling asleep and putting him to bed 15-30 minutes earlier (5.45pm instead of 6.00-6.30pm)

But...will it work again??? Always the question.

And usually the answer is No.

sad

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Feb-14 17:54:34

That's great laura good luck For tonight.
I do want to stop feeding to sleep.
But I'm scared grin
So. No feeds before 2am.
Try the "pantley pull-off" to attempt stopping the feed to sleep thing
Really try hard to avoid bringing her into my bed

I think I might have a little wine tonight.

LauraPalmer Wed 19-Feb-14 18:32:35

Well, I put DS down a bit earlier again tonight. But only after I had to rouse him after he'd fallen asleep during his bed-time BF which I accidentally let happen because I wanted to finish my game of iPhone Scrabble. blush

we'll see how it goes later on...

yes, yes to opening a bottle of wine

may the force be with you, AC!

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Feb-14 21:12:13

wine Hic!

Elizabeth pantley (of "the no cry sleep solution") is positively evangelical about early bedtime. So well done.
I let dd feed to sleep too.
Thing is, I bath both DCs, then DS sits on my bed with me while I feed dd and retread them both a story. So, not only is it convenient to let her fall asleep like that, it's also sometimes unavoidable.
Hey HO.
With DS I used to feed his to sleep whilst I was watching telly. blush

Ahh, I miss those early days.
I have a bottle of water and a dummy for if she wakes before 2 am. As I have had a drink I am extra motivated not to feed her too early.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Feb-14 21:13:01

retread good grief. I've only had one glass.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 20-Feb-14 07:35:50

<groan> so tired.
DD woke at midnight. So I rocked and held her and gave her some water. She went back to sleep in her cot.
Then she woke at 4 so I fed her. Eventually went back to sleep but in my arms. She woke again at 6.
I am shattered.
But pleased that she managed to sleep without a midnight feed.

MadameJ Thu 20-Feb-14 08:12:23

I think I'm going to have to join this thread as it's just not working for us anymore!! My first dd was a dreadful sleeper but it was made bearable by the fact that she was happy to co-sleep. Dd2 however is not interested in this at all. I do all the bad habits, feed to sleep, resettle with boob etc but I just don't know how to change things really. Dd2 is nearly 8 months so not gonna try anything drastic but I think 9 wakings between 8-6 is excessive in any one's book. One of the main issues I have is I have to go into dd2 at the first squeak as she wakes dd1 which is a nightmare!! I think from tonight I am not going to feed her within 4 hours of her last feed (does that sound fair??)

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 20-Feb-14 09:14:18

madamej you must be shattered!
One of the good things about hearing other ppl's stories is that I can tell dh it's not just me our DCs.

I think your plan sounds fair.
If it seems too arduous then it might be worth trying three hours as a limit at first. Slowly but surely.

I must make sure DD feeds well today and has her naps. My HV is evangelical about naps grin

Scrumptiousboy Thu 20-Feb-14 20:25:42

Great progress AC, hang in there.

I'm shattered as we've now had 3 bad, bad nights (and days). Hoping the worst of it is over and have gently been guiding him towards old - good - habits. We still fall into old bad habits when poorly :-(

laura look at you go. How was last night?

LauraPalmer Fri 21-Feb-14 08:40:34

Hmmm. Well, we've had a few mixed nights (I was too depressed to post about it yesterday!)

Night before last was a mess.

Last night went fairly okayish...we moved DS bedtime back by an hour (so 7.00pm) and he slept through without a peep until 10.30pm, which is a bit earlier than his normal first feed, but I thought that I'd feed him then and go to bed myself. All was well...for half an hour. Then he had this strange fussy hour and a half before crashing out finally. Lots of BF to calm, but did a variation on the Pantley Pull Off each time. Of course, I did substitute my boob with a dummy, so who knows what sort of new bad habits I'm creating! Then he slept through from 1.00-5.00am, when I fed him again praying hoping that he'd then sleep to 7.00am. No luck, he woke at 6.00am bang-on, ready to start his day.

We're going to try to push his in-bed hours from 6.00pm-6.00am to 7.00-7.00. According to most sleep experts this will probably take a few days and include several disruptive nights. But if it means he changes to a consistent 7.00am wake up then it's worth it. Meanwhile, lots of [tea] (with extra shots of espresso)

How's everyone else doing?

This thread is good for keeping me sane, thank you!

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 21-Feb-14 08:43:08

Morning scrumptious. Sorry about the bad nights. How was last night?
I feel grim tbh. I feel like we're making progress because although DD woke up at 12 ish and 1 ish I managed to settle her in the rocking chair by giving her water and cuddles. She drank a full 5oz around 1 am! I was surprised. So pleased I didn't leave her with nothing.
Then she slept in her cot until almost 5am when I d her.dH got up with her about 6ish. But the timings are a bit blurred tbh.

How's it going theonlyway, madame, laura?

Scrumptiousboy Fri 21-Feb-14 20:11:40

Better, but not good. I was doing hard line though as he is clearly now over his cold and worst of the teething. I can see the new teeth poking out. He was quick to settle though and was happy not to feed to sleep today at any point. Just quietly went to sleep in my arms. I'll do that again tomorrow and then will see if I can put him into his cot without it becoming WW3. We slept till 8.45 this morning shock

That IS great progress AC.

laura an hours change is a biggie. I personally would have opted for a more gradual change, maybe 15min later every 2-3 nights. That way they dont get so overtired.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 22-Feb-14 06:50:27

Yy to gradual changes.

I failed big-time last night blush
The plan was no bf until 2 am.
DD woke around midnight. I had forgotten to get her water ready so I settled her with a dummy. That worked and I put he back in her cot.
She slept until around 130. I fed her and she went to sleep. Back in cot and woke around 530. DS wa already in our bed by then. DH is asleep and I am up with the DCs.
If I hadn't slept from 730 (fell asleep while putting them to bed) until 1130 when I woke up and put them in their beds/ cots I would be derranged by now.
If DH hasn't cleared up properly from yesterday's dinner I think I might kill him because I can't face that mess when I get downstairs.

Actually I am at a loss. I have no idea what to do for the best. Does weaning off night feeds even make any difference?
She looks uncomfortable when she wakes in the night. As though she's got a tummy ache. I know she's teething.
It's all so grim. I am fed up. No rest or respite whatsoever. sad

LauraPalmer Sat 22-Feb-14 06:59:09

AC - you're doing really well! That's fantastic that you've transitioned DD to water and cuddles during the earlier part of the night. It's so hard in those hours from 2.00am to 6.00am, isn't it? I always want to do what will work the most quickly so we can all get back to sleep. blush

Scrumpy - I am amazed at the 8.45 lie-in. And completely jealous. I also agree re. Shifting Sleep Hours. Our plan is to change his hours incrementally by 15-20 mins. every few nights - the only reason we had such a dramatic leap on Thursday was because he'd had an hour long nap from 4.30-5.30! Last night he went down at 6.20pm (bedtime routine starting at 6.00), which I think will make for a better, slower, hopefully successful transition.

Last night:
6.20am-10.30pm not a peep; BF at 10.30 but he didn't take as much as usual

10.45pm-11.30am asleep

11.30- 12.30 DS was very restless and wiggly and unsettled; cuddled and BF (forgot about giving water!) then tried to put him back down in the cot several times and he continued to fuss, so DP took over

1.00am-6.00am slept soundly - first time ever to go that long without a feed in those evil soul destroying early morning hours (!!!)

So, although he didn't fall in line re. a 7.00am wake up, I'm really pleased that he skipped his usual early-hours feed. Now the ideal situation would be for him to drop down to one feed around midnight. I'd be happy with that.
<wishful>

How was everyone else's Friday night?

LauraPalmer Sat 22-Feb-14 07:00:08

Epic xpost!

LauraPalmer Sat 22-Feb-14 07:03:04

10.45-11.30 AM (obviously!)

LauraPalmer Sat 22-Feb-14 07:05:01

O ffs. I did it AGAIN. <brain dead>

11.30 PM. Because if he'd slept until 11.30am I'd still be asleep right now...envy

LauraPalmer Sat 22-Feb-14 07:16:03

Sorry to hear it was a bad night AC - it does feel like any time there's some success then it all goes tits-up the next night. Why is that? It's so frustrating.

DP and I had a long talk yesterday and actually we've decided not to focus on night weaning. Because it's not the feeding that's our issue - it's the sleep between the feeding that we want to conquer. And no matter what the books/experts/HVs say, our DS does need to eat in the 12 hour period that he's in bed. Perhaps your DD is the same, AC, and the older they get they will need less in that long stretch.

I just don't have it in me to let him go hungry if he wants to eat. (Not comfort-suckle, but full-on, milk-drop-down feeding, on both sides.)

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 22-Feb-14 09:51:55

Yy LP
One of her feeds is a decent full-on feed.
I would be happy with a feed between midnight and 2. Then a sleep until 6. Is that too much to ask?
Maybe I should try for that as a pattern???
<lost>

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Feb-14 08:17:27

Funny night.
DD BF to sleep at 7:30 ish.
Woke at almost 2:00. Bf to sleep in the rocking chair.
By the time I put her back in her cot and got into my own bed it was 3:00am.
Then she slept until 7:20 shock
Sadly, I didn't sleep well in between and DS wa in our bed for a while. But he slept pretty well and I'm quite pleased with DD's stretch of sleep after that 2:00am feed.

How are things going for the rest of you?
I hope you had reasonable nights.

Liveinthepresent Sun 23-Feb-14 14:00:18

Hello all please may I join you ? Am on the same mission - am determined to stop giving in to the 'easy' option of BF every time my 8 month old wakes in the night - but somehow my steely determination during the day time ebbs away to nothing at night..
RealAmanda I think you were on the NCSS thread too ? It's gone quiet - dont think its worked for anyone!!

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Feb-14 15:35:12

Hi liveinthepresent
Yes. I was on the NCSS thread. That's still my approach tbh but I think I might find it easier to tackle one thing at a time IYSWIM.

I'm interested in what LP was saying about accepting that baby still Nestor feed though. So I am going to feed, just not at every waking, like you say.
If she really seems to want to feed I am feeding her.but sometimes I think she just needs a cuddle.
It's not easy.

How many times is babypresent feeding?

Gingersnap88 Sun 23-Feb-14 16:14:48

Can I join in too please? My DD is 2 next month, we've just moved house and she is feeding like a newborn at night hmm I'm so tired!

Last night when she woke at 1am, I said no to milk and she screamed and screamed at the top of her lungs for nearly 3 hours.
She was so so upset and I was upset for her and cross in equal measures. In the end, I did the wrong thing and caved just so we could get some sleep. She woke up at 6 still..

I've been trying the NCSS and the Dr Jay Gordon method but neither seem to be working.

My husband gets cross with me and blames it all on the breastfeeding. He pretends he can't hear her until I get upset and demand he helps me (even if only to hold my hand).

It was really horrible though, she had such a melt down, she obviously just couldn't understand why she couldn't have milk. I feel awful!

Any advise? I'm hoping someone will crack it!

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Feb-14 16:25:05

Hi gingersnap
You didn't do the wrong thing.
How many feeds is your dd having at night?

Gingersnap88 Sun 23-Feb-14 19:12:18

Thank you AmandaClark, that's nice to hear.

She's waking anywhere between 1 and 4 times sad she goes to sleep after a feed in her own bed and then in the early hours ends up in bed with us. Once she's in our bed, it feels as though she is constantly on the boob which makes me quite fed up..

Fingers crossed we all have a better night!

Scrumptiousboy Sun 23-Feb-14 20:25:59

gingersnap when I first night weaned DS in the autumn, I opted for the 'extend the time between feeds' approach. First feed, DS screamed for 2,5 hours - in the end he fell asleep but only to wake up as soon as I tried to move, I then fed him as there was no way I was listening to any more of that. He skipped that feed the next night! Sadly he got Ill just couple of days after and we were back to square one.

Some amazing progress here. We're still in recovery mode here - lots of sleep during the day and tired in the afternoons. But his appetite is back and for the last two nights he has been waking 3 times each night, sleeping regular 3 hours stretches. Now just need him to start extending those stretches again....

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Feb-14 21:36:01

scrumptious. Sorry to hear about DS being I'll. It's so demoralising when you get a backwards step.

gingersnap co sleeping has been a mixed blessing PITA for us.
Some nights it's the only thing that I can manage. OMG anything just to be able to lie down!
But then I found that DD seems to wake more frequently when she's in with me. Or I wake more. Or both??
Some f my better nights are those nights when I manage to feed her in her room and get her into her own. OT.
But it's hard sometimes. The other night I just couldn't help it. I was so desecrate to lie down an I brought her in with me.
With DS (shocking sleeper) I took to using a matress on the floor in his room. I went to bed in my own bed, but as soon as he had his first wake-up I would go in hs room and co sleep on the matress with him. It made he whole thing more bearable somehow.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Feb-14 22:42:57

Tonight:
19:30 - Bf dd to sleep. Fell asleep.
22:30 - woke up. DD woke up.
BF dd to sleep.

I have now missed my half hour, Pre- dh coming into bedroom, lie down and self -selected tv enjoyment.

<utterly out of sorts>

eveylikesv Sun 23-Feb-14 23:09:36

So glad l found this thread, thought it was just me...Ds is 14 months, bf to sleep and wakes up between 4-10 times every night. I know he uses me as a live dummy and he is capable of falling asleep without help (he does it at CM) just not when he knows l'm around sad. I don't know how to stop this madness, as l am so shuttered l just give in to get some sleep and l have to go to work in the morning. Dp tried to settle him on few occasions but he just gets hysterical and then wakes himself up. Following with interest for some tips and magic solution.

eveylikesv Sun 23-Feb-14 23:13:57

*shattered not shuttered! (Sigh) my brain is gone…

JustLetMeSleep Mon 24-Feb-14 01:34:59

Also joining as I'm trying the same. Have just tried to shush DD2 in her cot for over an hour, including cuddles and water before giving in and feeding her to sleep. She is 10 months. We had a few good nights but I think she's wise to it now and has started putting up a major fight. Am so fed up and DH no help after bedtime, ugh.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 24-Feb-14 05:53:49

Epic fail here.
I don't know what time DD woke up because I cba to look at a clock (yes, I am that tired)
I took her into bed with me (I know, I know) and bf her to sleep. Then at 4:30 I woke up and put her in her cot.
She woke again at 5:30. I'm feeding her now.
I know she's teething and the bf comforts her.
I can handle one feed but this is killing me. I have to get up for work in a minute and when I'm there if I mention the sleep someone will make a patronising comment about me being too soft (a colleague thinks I should let her CIO).
I know it would have been better to sit with her rather than co sleep.
But sitting up with her when I'm so insanely tired is impossible.
People who have had "good sleepers" have absolutely no idea about how this feels, or how lucky they are and their smugness makes me want to........
sad

Anyone?

Hi eveylikesv and justletmesleep

Sorry for the bad example and miserable post

JustLetMeSleep Mon 24-Feb-14 07:28:30

Oh RealAmanda, sorry about your rubbish night. I keep telling myself it's an ongoing process, it's not going to happen quickly, so there will be bad nights. If she's teething maybe a feed and cuddle is what she really needed, not a fail. Mine's teething too and I think yesterday she maybe just couldn't manage sleeping. Hard to remember that at 1.30am, just had the massive red rage hate everyone type brain state going on!

I was one of those smug bastards with DD1. She slept through reliably from 4-5 months (thumb sucking) and I was probably horribly pitying and uncomprehending with friends who had wakey babies. Karma eh! smile

eveylikesv Mon 24-Feb-14 13:42:01

RealAmanda so sorry to hear that! I co-sleep with DS to get any rest, he is not in our bed but in his own room on the futon on the floor. Had a dreadful night as well as couldn't sleep till about 1am, then DS woke up and was a bit unsettled for the rest of the night (he is teething at the moment). I am traveling without him for a few days in couple of weeks time and hoping he will just learn to sleep during this time and wean himself off the boob. DP is in for a shock for sure...

Gingersnap88 Mon 24-Feb-14 20:07:57

Amanda- so sorry to hear about your rubbish night hmm it's so draining.
Sumptuous- I hope bubba is feeling better soon.

My daughter is messing with me. Last night she slept through until 5.30am and then was up for the day. Wtf?!

I'm expecting tonight to be bedlam sad

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 24-Feb-14 21:05:39

Thanks everyone. Fingers crossed for a better night.

gingersnap great news that dd sept through, although the early strts are a struggle.

Teething is horrid isn't it justletmesleep

eveylikes I like co sleeping when it's at floor level and just me and the dc.
I just need to persuade dh to go the sure bed. grin

Wishing you all a good night.
I am aiming for a one-feed limit and to have dd sleep in her cot.

Scrumptiousboy Mon 24-Feb-14 21:13:11

FX for a better night amanda. Like others have said, maybe just as a result of teething - if only they could talk and tell us!!

DS slept from 6.45pm to 2.30am last night, gave a quick 2 min feed (confess, I bring him to bed when he wakes after midnight) and he tried to settle himself for 15min, got frustrated and I decided to give another quick 1min feed (be a dummy!) and he settled within 5min. Another quick wake up at 5, with a 1-2min dummy/feed and up at 7. He's only had one nap today, but it lasted 2 hrs. Let's see what tonight brings. I'm going to try and keep all feeds to 1min.

ginger let's hope sleeping through is the new thing!!

Welcome to everyone else

MrsNPattz Mon 24-Feb-14 21:19:57

Hi ladies, I'm in a similar position but don't feel ready to tackle it yet! DS is 17 months, we cosleep (in a different room to DH), bf to sleep and to resettle in the night - all less than ideal but it gets me the most sleep! So, I'm reading with interest....

Gingersnap88 Mon 24-Feb-14 23:43:05

So far not so good, am feeding her back to sleep now after an unsettled hour or so hmm drained...

HawkeyeInChaos Tue 25-Feb-14 03:07:37

Hello. May I join you please.

Dc2 is proving to be a bit of a nighttime nightmare. He is only 7 months. Last week he moved into a cor in dc1's room (prior to that he had been in a crib in my room, but he is now to big). Now he is waking every 1-2 hours for a feed. Sometimes he feeds, then gone back to sleep. Sometimes he feeds, then stays awake for a couple of hours [exhausted emoticon]. He is bf.

For comparison, at this age dc1 was still waking 1-3:times but always settled straight after a feed. I started reducing her feed durations when she was about 11 months, and she started sleeping through at 12.

So I'm not looking to eliminate night feeds yet, just significantly reduce them. Because I'm going back to work in a month, and will be a zombie if things don't change.

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 25-Feb-14 07:27:32

Welcome hawkeye and npattz I think weve met before NPattz. Was it on a night feed thread?
Hi gingersnap and scrumptious
scumptious I think you're doing really well to have shortened those feeds. That's really impressive.

hawkeye it's so hard going back to work, well it was for me. But I'm in a routine now and just hoping to get. Better night's sleep.

ginger sorry you've had a tiring night.

I dearly, I think I would co sleep in a different room from dh tbh.
But that's not really practical ATM for us. sad

Last night DS woke up after a bad dream. So that woke DD up. It was around 11pm and she managed to settle with water in a bottle and cuddles. Then it was around 1 ish when I fed her. I sat with her and put her back in who cot. Not sure what time that was but she subsequently woke just after 6.
So, progress? A bit.
I think it has been useful for us to offer water at times when it's unlikely she's hungry.
Also, I gave her some nurofen before bed to help with her teeth.

I'm right there with you all grin

Gingersnap88 Tue 25-Feb-14 07:36:35

Terrible! She was up at 2.30, 3.30 and 4.40 before getting up at 6.30. She ended up in bed with us at 4.30.
Amanda- like you, I find co sleeping much better when it's just me and DD in the bed. Maybe we need a bigger bed?! Much be so hard when you've got the two DC to worry about. I think it's brilliant your DD is settling with water and a cuddle.

Scrumptious ( sorry I spelt it wrongly, it's the lack of sleep) sounds like you're doing really well shortening the feeds!

MrsReacher85 Tue 25-Feb-14 07:50:57

Hi, we night weaned about 3 months ago now when DS was 15mo. I thought it was going to be horrendous as he was a real milk monster at night, we'd already weaned during the day. I decided to go cold turkey as I thought he'd be confused otherwise and I knew I'd cave on the timings.

I continued to cosleep as I figured I could only sort one problem at a time! We had about 3 bad nights where I offered him water but after that he stopped asking. He still wakes in the night but resettling him takes a matter of minutes now and I'm getting much more sleep.

So the reason I wrote all that was just say that you'll get there! If even my terrible sleeper,constant feeder can do it then yours definitely can.

MadameJ Tue 25-Feb-14 09:38:55

Well I was hoping to report good news as dd decided to sleep from 8-7 on Sunday without any wakings but no we were back to hourly last night!! Only fed her once at 1am so I suppose that's something even if it meant rocking for bloody hours instead

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 25-Feb-14 20:08:16

ginger so sorry about your bad night. That's how our rubbish nights look. I just wish I could kick dh out and put the matress on the floor tbh.

madame wow! At that Sunday night sleep. But last night- not fair. Its amazingly impressive that ou only fed her once. That has to be good progress.
Some nights I feel I'm up with dd for hours rocking her. And it's exhausting and I ache. But it's got to be a good thing to have reduced the feeds.... Softly, softly catchy monkey?

mrsreacher thank you. Well done. It really helps to hear good news.

Ok. Water at the ready. Dd almost asleep.
Good luck!

HawkeyeInChaos Wed 26-Feb-14 08:47:14

So envious of your 8-7 madame. Hope you start getting more like that.

Ds was up pretty well hourly again last night. I'm off to find my copy of NCSS for inspiration because I can't go on like this.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 26-Feb-14 20:04:03

Oh hawkeye you poor thing.
I like NCSS. I find it comforting at least grin
Not a good night last night. DS woke DD up around 11 and in desperation I fed her. Then coslept in the spare room after she woke again around 1am.
She did at least manage to go off again after 5 until 7 but that means three feeds last night when I was hoping to get down to one.
I'm now working on the technique in NCSS to stop feeding to sleep. The "pantley pull-off"
So on again for trying to limit night feeds to one.
Good luck with all your ventures.

Liveinthepresent Wed 26-Feb-14 23:58:40

Am still reading but struggling to type sensible post!
I feel like a wimp compared to some of you veterans on here.
My DS is 8 months.
He currently settles to sleep at bedtime ok - goes down awake.
Good night =bed at 8 wake at 11/12 then 3/4 then 6.30 ish for the day.
Last week he did two amazing sleeps - one night with just an 11 wake up, next night did 10 hours straight.
Can you imagine how excited I was ??
Since then back to 1-2 and occasional 3 hour stretches... Aargh !
He is constantly unwell as has started nursery - which doesn't help..
It honestly was so hard realising we haven't cracked it.
I am back at work and am struggling tbh.
I know it may not sound so bad to you all - but we don't co sleep and so bad nights are brutal.
Good luck all

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Feb-14 04:58:57

brew for you livinginthepresent
That sounds exhausting.
But I think you're selling yourself short. To have got to the stage where your DS goes down awake is fantastic. This (among many others) is the area I have completely failed as a parent sad
Also, I would have thought that over time your DS will drop those night feeds naturally because he's still ny 8mo and you have brilliantly managed to avoid him needing to feed to sleep.
You should immediately come to my house to share the secret of this
.
It is so much more tiring when I am "good" and sit up with dd rather than lie down with her, I know what you mean there.

I coslept last night. blush at 1 dd woke for a feed and I couldn't ear to not lie down. She slept after that and has just had another feed. I'd like to put her in her cot but I am scared of transfer fail.
DD is asleep, albeit lightly, DS is asleep. DH is asleep.
envy

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Feb-14 05:19:46

I have just put DD in her cot
I wish I could sleep.
I can hear bastard birds singing and bastard dh breathing angry

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Feb-14 06:05:39

Aaaand we're up.
DD is wide awake and toddling around the bedroom.
Thankfully DS is sleeping soundly.
DH is also sleeping soundly but I'm less cheerful about that.

Could it be that I need to work harder in the 430 feed?
I can handle her being up now, but not with the earlier wake up between 4 and 5.
Looking forward to struggling today tbh.

Liveinthepresent Thu 27-Feb-14 07:10:56

Amanda I really feel for you.
I know that feeling so well - I went through a hideous spell when DS was in our room of feeling murderous that DH could carry on sleeping and snoring his head off!
The worst times for me are definitely when I am up feeding and start mentally working out how much sleep I have had and how much more I can get.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Feb-14 07:42:17

thanks
DH bangs on about "us" being awake all night with DD angry
And thinks I get "loads" of sleep at the start of the night
But he's talking rubbish. I have to go to bed around 10 in order to get any sleep whatsoever. He's always in bed around 11 anyway.
Waking up is so not the same as getting up FFS. Wanker!
And he's still in bed while I'm doing breakfast, clearing up. My brain never rests and my body never recuperates.
On the extmely rare occasions that I've had a lie in it's always after a lot of fussing around IYSWIM. He can't just get up and take them downstairs. It's all "oh, do you want me to get up with them and give them breakfast?" procrastination for an hour so I'm wide awake by the time the room has been vacated.
I sometimes wonder if the complete lack of respite is going to have me in an institution. <half joking>
Hey HO. Thanks for letting me vent. I really appreciate it.
How was your night?

Liveinthepresent Thu 27-Feb-14 07:47:41

Thanks but I am not sure i can take any credit - I think he got there by himself .
Sadly he does still rely on feeding to sleep in the night - I know 8 months is little but there is an ingrained pattern that's been on place since 4 months and nothing seems to affect it barring the odd 'anomaly' night.. I know night feeds aren't uncommon at this age but I need to reduce the reliance on feeding back to sleep. There is no other way of doing so in the night so DH can't help me at all - much harder to cope with now I am working .
I have had a phone call with a sleep consultant as I was too tired to think straight and she agrees that this association with feeding to sleep is strong ( I guess because it is natural) so I am determined to work on it gradually because otherwise I know every illness will cause me to to be sat up feeding all night..

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Feb-14 08:01:23

Yes I'm with you on trying to stop that association. It's my current goal.
But it's just so tempting to let her feed to sleep.
I just want to get them both to sleep at night tbh.

HawkeyeInChaos Thu 27-Feb-14 08:57:35

Good lucky with the Pantley pull-off Amanda. I've decided to focus on that initially too.

Liveinthepresent Thu 27-Feb-14 09:10:01

Ooops I missed your earlier post - sorry but your descriptions of DH rage always made me smile on the other thread too! I had to have a bit of a crisis talk with mine this weekend as was getting really worried about how angry his lack of support was making me.
We are better now.
Last night was back to normal - fed at 11 ish and 4 ish then up at 6.45. Am noticing he needs longer and longer feeding at the moment to get back to sleep -so it's further incentive because I don't feel like its even working as well.
Hope you get through day ok.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Feb-14 21:52:53

So tonight I tried the PPO. Not great as she wasn't really awake but I managed to take her off before she came off herself IYSWIM.
Well, it's a gradual process...

Wishing you all a good night.

Liveinthepresent Thu 27-Feb-14 22:20:55

Sounds like a good start - I try to use it for night feeds though with varying success.
Predictably I jinxed myself by boasting about DS settling himself off to sleep - wasn't having any of it tonight. Fed to sleep. Ho hum.
Good luck ! I will check back at 3/4 !

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Feb-14 02:21:42

Hi all. Is it ok if I join in too? I've started to think I should be trying to encourage 9mnth DD to sleep through without Bfeeding through the night as I'm absolutely knackered and sick to death of not getting a full night's sleep.

She's not awful but I've still been doing a dream feed at 10.30 and then she's been waking for another feed with the occasional sleep thru til 7. It's so frustrating as my other 2DCs were sleeping through by 7 months and I just presumed DD would do the same.

Do you feel as though settling to sleep without feeding and giving water, cuddles instead etc is working?

My initial thought was missing the dream feed as then DH and I could go out for the odd night and not have to rush back so I've tried that tonight. She has woken a couple of times but gone back off to sleep til now when I'm feeding her so I'm hoping she'll now sleep til the morning.

Hope you're all tucked up and fast asleep!

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 28-Feb-14 03:18:54

Hello all, do you mind if I join too?

DD is 6.5mo, so still very young, but we have a real problem with feeding to sleep and she is unable to drop off without a boob actually in her mouth. Her sleep has been getting worse since xmas to the point where she rarely sleeps more than an hour or two at a stretch and it can take hours even to get to that point as she wakes and screams within seconds of being put down. There is no 'sleepy but awake' and no leaving her to grizzle for a bit, she's either asleep or full on screaming.

I don't expect her to sleep through or to stop night feeds completely but this situation is ludicrous. I'm currently feeding again for the third time since midnight, I'm aware it is for comfort not food but if I take her off before she's fully asleep she screams. We co sleep but it makes no difference, she is equally capable of screaming while I lie next to her and cuddle her. I can't feed lying down.

Sorry for the long whinge! Guess I would like to know if anyone has been in this situation and come out the other side? Those of you with older babies, do you wish you'd tackled the feed to sleep association sooner? Liveinthepresent I have been looking at sleep consultants too, do you think you'll go ahead? It feels bizarre to contemplate paying someone to tell me how to fulfil a baby's basic biological need, I feel like such a failure as a mother, but this is affecting both my and DP's physical and mental health and DD is getting nowhere near the amount of sleep she needs. I've tried NCSS but didn't get beyond the Pantley pull off and she's proving resistant to that. I don't think I could cope with CC but it doesn't look like there are many other options out there sad

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Feb-14 05:29:44

Hello ArtemistheHunter and Princesspost

Will post later when coherent.
Rubbish night. No idea of timings. Almost no sleep at all. DD has a fever sad

<Off to get a steam roller to drive over my head>

Liveinthepresent Fri 28-Feb-14 06:31:29

Hello Artemis and Princess

Amanda brew thanks

You poor woman - I can imagine how you must feel - sounds like my night on Monday.

Hope you will feel better with some caffeine on board.

Not great here either - was up at 11,1,3.30 and now. Am thankful it's Friday - but have to entertain PIL when I get home tonight so that may be a challenge.
DS has a cough so I know it's to be expected but I feel like he is ill almost constantly and this prevents me doing anything to improve things. Aargh !

Sorry for moaning when I know others have it worse.

artemis I paid for a one off phone consultation and found it incredibly helpful. It gave me a clear step by step plan - all of which made perfect sense and some of which I have achieved. As I said just now if DS didn't get a new cold every week I think I could achieve more but I can't deny him comfort when ill so am not very strong on some of the things I know I should be doing.
I know what you mean about paying for this advice but I found I was just too tired and foggy to think straight so found the conversation very useful.
So I would recommend it but you do have to be really ready to make changes -it isn't easy fixing this.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Feb-14 06:36:40

living good luck for this evening.

Off to make brew <passes round to comrades>
Dh has won the stand-off and apart from getting up to get the nurofen as I was wedged in by DS and DD he's back in bed so I will be up first.
angry
Must be exhausting for him listening to me get up all night.

<off to find shovel>

Liveinthepresent Fri 28-Feb-14 11:34:28

Thanks Amanda I handed DS to DH at 6.30 and then went back to bed and overslept making myself 50 mins late to work .
My DH is great and does so much at home - especially with DD - but he just doesn't get the relentless exhaustion and as you said before the feeling of never being off duty. I call the nights my night shift but still I don't think unless you do it you can truly understand how emotionally and physically draining it is!
When I spoke to him about helping with night waking he started listing the nights he couldn't do because of work... Like I get a choice?! Grrrr..

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Feb-14 12:16:42

My DH os always saying 'we had a rough night' when he doesn't even move from bed. So annoying especially since our bedroom is in the loft after recently having it converted. You'd think with the amount of times I've been up and down those stairs through the night in the last few months I'd have the most amazingly toned legs and bum....no such luck!

DD woke at 5 too and fed so maybe dropping the 10.30 dream feed hasn't really done anything except create an extra wake up for me.

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 28-Feb-14 13:57:45

brew and cake all round (and maybe wine for later). I need a 'stiff gin' emoticon wink

Amanda how is your DD today? Illness when you're already exhausted is the pits. I'm dreading teething. We have had no real problems yet (bar lots of dribbling and whinging) but when she starts cutting teeth it's going to be an absolute nightmare.

I hit a new low last night, not long after I posted, when DD woke up screaming for the umpteenth time and I screamed back... DP took over and she eventually went to sleep on him in a way that would have the co sleeping police round, but it frightened me. Live do you mind if I ask which consultant you used? I think we need support. Neither of us likes the idea of CIO but we can't agree on how else to tackle the feed to sleep and night waking. If we could work out a plan we could both commit to and stick with we might stand a fighting chance.

Now I know why the Victorians used to give babies opium though I'd probably just take it all myself

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Feb-14 14:20:13

(((*Artemis*))). In the back pages of NCSS there's a technique for dropping night feeds without cc or CIO, that she advises if you're "at the end of your roe"
I used it with DS when he was about 18mo. It did work to get him off night feeds pretty quickly and the waking stopped shortly after.
I don't know why I'm not doing that now tbh confused

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Feb-14 16:50:15

Ooo TheRealAC pray tell of this secret magic.....

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Feb-14 18:23:14

Well it basI ally involves not feeding grin
Obviously you start with a well nourished baby old enough to not need a night feed.
Then when baby wakes for a feed you just... Don't feed, but hold and rock them. I think she says that if it all ecomes too much you give a little feed and then carry on cuddling and rocking etc.
So it's cold turkey with comfort rather than crying it out.
I believe she considers it an emergency measure when you're so desperate as to be considering CIO IYSWIM.
I will read up.
That's how I dropped DSs night feeds. I was desperate.

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 28-Feb-14 18:55:17

Thanks Amanda. I will go back to the book and read that section. I guess common sense dictates that the only way to stop feeding to sleep is to... Stop feeding to sleep. But so far DD's vocal persistence has far outweighed my ability to persevere, especially at 3am. My difficulty with NCSS is that, if I follow the techniques, we do get crying and therefore not much sleep. But I don't honestly believe that by this point it is possible to have a tear free solution. The habit is just too ingrained. If I'd had any idea that letting her fall asleep on the boob at 6weeks old was going to land me here I would never have done it wish I'd formula fed

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Feb-14 19:33:25

The only problem with not feeding DD during the night is that it takes her longer to go back to sleep so I get less sleep. Simple really then?!

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Feb-14 19:33:58

Oh and here's hoping we all have 'good' nights tonight

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Feb-14 19:43:25

princess I think it might not be ideal for you as your baby is only 9 mo.

And yes artemis there is crying with that technique, even EP says that. But there's no "leaving to cry" IYSWIM.

DD still a bit poorly, probably viral I would think. So I am expecting a crappy night poor little dolly.
But. I totally agree with all of you who talk about getting less sleep when you'r making a change. I think if I had no work, a mothers help and a cleaner I would be on the floor with a mattress co sleeping and breastfeeding my way to whenever DD self weans tbh.
Good nights everyone.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 01-Mar-14 06:43:26

Shocking night with poorly, hot DD.
Fed about 37 times. grin

PrincessPotsie Sat 01-Mar-14 06:49:38

V frustrating night. Didn't do dream feed but only as DD woke at 9.30 so I fed her then. She then woke at midnight for a feed and is awake again now. I know that's not horrendous but I just think that she should be able to sleep thru now she's having three good meals a day.

My other two DC were having bottles by this age so thinking about it I would more often than not try to settle them before feeding but DC3 is still ebf and if she wakes I'm feeding straight away. I'm so tired that I just want to go back to sleep as quickly as possible. I know I need to sort this ASAP as the longer it goes on the harder it will be to change. Grrrrr.

Hope your nights were ok and no DH's were murdered.

PrincessPotsie Sat 01-Mar-14 06:52:30

Oh no massive cross post. I take it back, my night wasn't frustrating after all..... Hope your DD feels better today TheRealAC. brew brew brew

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 01-Mar-14 07:24:29

No need to take it back. Itsall frustrating princess
We all just want some sleep.
Thanks and have one yourself brew

Liveinthepresent Sat 01-Mar-14 09:46:32

Amanda that's what I call a bad night grin hope you aren't working today and can get a bit of rest.
Our night was ok - 8-11 then up for ages due to me feeding to sleep which took forever then realised I had forgotten to change nappy from random late night poo so had to wake him up to do that and then repeat the feed to sleep .. Then I woke at 3.30 because he was shuffling but amazingly I dropped back off and so did he as he woke me at 5 - then up for day at 7. Feel so much better on the rare nights I get a 4 hours stretch. Very excited to be feeling human today as PIL have offered to baby sit for DH and I tonight - so we may venture out for a couple of hours!

Artemis the lady I spoke to is the one being recommended all over here at the moment - Ann Caird. Am just worried she must be having such a business boom at the moment she might not have time for mei f I need her again!

LauraPalmer Sat 01-Mar-14 19:05:07

Hi all, hi AC - just popping in to say that I'm so confused by the whole 2 steps forward/2 steps back dance that DS (& I) are doing re. sleep. Every time we make progress and I stupidly get my hopes up he always seems to backslide during the next night. And tracking it via this thread was making me feel bad so I decided to stop posting for a few days. But I'm still lurking...and still wishing good sleep for all of us.

Btw, when I was typing in 'two steps back' it came up as 'two steps cack' and that is what I've decided to call this little sleep dance - The 2-step Cack. Because a big pile of Cack is what I feel like and look like from extended sleeplessness.

wine lots of wine

PrincessPotsie Sat 01-Mar-14 21:59:36

Bless you LauraPalmer. It's so frustrating isn't it. No cutting out dream feed again tonight as DD has woke, just in time for us to eat dinner with our old uni friends that have come for the night.

Am torn between 'she's only little still' and 'I must do something before these bad habits get out of hand'.

It's prob the least of my worries tonight though as we have 4 DC sleeping in DS's room tonight which should be interesting! wine wine!

Liveinthepresent Sat 01-Mar-14 22:47:07

wine wine and more wine it is Saturday night isn't it ? dH and I have been out for the 'evening' it was a 1.5 hour round trip and got home to a wide awake DS ..
Fingers crossed for sleep to all ..

ArtemisTheHunter Sat 01-Mar-14 23:02:55

Princess I am in a similar situation. Feed to sleep has in the past got me more sleep but now DD has taken to waking every 45 minutes it is killing me and making me hate BFing. Last night I decided not to do it. DP was out so I got my mum over for moral support and decided I was making the change, basically the tactic from NCSS that Amanda recommended. Unsurprisingly DD protested, cried in my ear on and off for an hour, it was 10.30 before she went down for more than half an hour, but then she slept until 2 when I fed her. I don't want to go cold turkey on night feeds as she's still little enough to need them but I need to make a solid effort to break the boob-sleep association before it breaks me. She took 2 hours to resettle as I wouldn't let her fall asleep feeding but we have had far worse nights. Tonight's been mixed, frequent wakings but not so much crying on the whole, am trying to stay strong.

Live that is the lady I was considering speaking to, yes I imagine she's working 24/7 at the moment and not getting much sleep herself! Her website suggests you need the full package to get a concrete plan so it's encouraging that you felt an hour phone call was enough to make a difference.

Amanda I hope your poorly girl is better soon.

Wishing everyone a peaceful night...

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 02-Mar-14 01:32:06

Hi.
Breaking the feed to sleep association appears o be the key.
And EP and Millpond talk about that.
So when DD is better I will be focussing on that by using the PPO and using additional sleep associations; singing, rocking...
I tried a comforter/ lovey. It neither of my DCs have taken to them tbh. They just use my hair grin

Tonight DD wouldn't feed o sleep. She fed and stopped and I held her until she fell asleep. Then she woke at midnight and I fed her. I've just given her calpol and fed again.
I have a matress on th floor in he room now and plan to just use emergency measures to get through.No, not working thankfully.

Sorry you're disheartened LP it is all very frustrating.
And Artemis I too am always in a dilemma about what's the best thing to do.

But definitely need to break the feed to sleep thng.
That, I believe, is key.

Good luck and good nights all.

Scrumptiousboy Sun 02-Mar-14 12:46:16

Hi- lurking too, but been too tired to post. Funny that, as we are making progress - back to waking up just once for a quick feed around 2/3am. I tried to drop that again, but he just screamed the house down for over an hour. I'm ok letting him have a little cry, just not happy to leave him on his own. DS doesn't feed to sleep, but still needs a feed to get drowsy - IYSWIM. One day we'll get over that too. For now I'm happy with status quo. We've got here with a combination of pulling off, just letting have a little cry when cuddling and some gradual retreat. He settles himself after a feed and now during the night he settles without it, apart from the one wake-up. But I don't let him fall asleep on the boob then either - he protests for a little while, but then falls asleep holding my hand. Let's see how long that continues, I'm sure the next cold/set of teeth are just around the corner. Until then, I've promised to go to bed by 9.30 each night.

I hope you all manage to make good progress soon. Just a suggestion, in some areas HVs are trained by Millpond and local sleep clinics can be accessed through them. Some HVs even come and support you at home if you decided to go down the CC/CIO route. Worth asking them if you have a good relationship with them.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 02-Mar-14 20:45:27

Scrumptious that's great progress. You're a star. Well done.

I just wish it didn't require so much effort grin

I'm opting out of all changes until DD is better. Off o the GP tomorrow I think because this fever and not eatin had gone on for a good 3 days.

Good nights to you all.

Scrumptiousboy Sun 02-Mar-14 20:57:17

Hope you have a better night tonight. A trip to your GP sounds like just the ticket.
It certainly hasn't been easy, nor quick, but it does feel like we have turned a corner. Although he woke up with a runny nose from his nap today, so it could be short lived again sad

TerrifiedMothertobe Sun 02-Mar-14 21:57:33

I had a similar issue and offered cold formula in a bottle. My ds1 quickly turned his nose up and the night feeds stopped. Just wish I had done it sooner. This time I know not to make the same mistake!

Liveinthepresent Sun 02-Mar-14 23:15:35

Amanda hope things improve soon. Illness is a nightmare.
dS unwell again ( or still )
I have just ruined a pleasant weekend by shouting at DH for carrying on watching TV when DS started crying - second wake up so far tonight. AIBU ? Probably...
Artemis if you go down the Ann Caird route I reckon you still need nerves of steel.
This is the most intense thing ever ...

Liveinthepresent Sun 02-Mar-14 23:18:03

Terrified tell us more... People keep saying try water etc - but is there a difference with some night wakings and these babies who think they need to feed to sleep ? dS seems to go ballistic quickly if not offered milk??

TerrifiedMothertobe Mon 03-Mar-14 04:32:06

It was when he was around 6 months and was waking 2/3 times a night- although was eating plenty of solids and milk during day. I was desperate to wear off breast. He just had so little each time I thought it was for comfort. Some may not approve, but I had a few months before returning to a demanding job and needed to get out of the sleep deprived zombie state! Started with warm formula, he took little of that, and then when it was cold he dropped it fast, was good to see he wasn't hungry- maybe habit?

Just what worked for me... Ds2 is 12 weeks and we are feeding anywhere between 2-5 times a night..... I have it all yo cone again!!!

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 03-Mar-14 05:05:05

Thanks for the tip terrified

Sorry to hear about poorly DS living. DD seems a little better this ,morning <crosses fingers>.
I am definitely going to focus on breaking the feed-to-keep association. I think the NCSS thread is pretty good for tips. I do find it hard for some reason, to heap on the sleep cues IYSWIM.
Anyway we co- slept upon DDs first waking (12 is?) and it's definitely easier (short term) than getting up.
She's sleeping now, a beautiful snuggly bundle of cuteness.

ArtemisTheHunter Mon 03-Mar-14 15:44:30

Live is it actually working for you? Are you allowed to divulge any methods or under some kind of confidentiality thing? I'm just curious to know if there are different techniques in existence other than eg gradual retreat, PU/PD and the others i'm familiar with from reading far too many books... I guess the benefit of a consultant is having someone pick through the options and choose something that will work for your individual situation.

We were doing OK for a few nights with not feeding to sleep but last night it went tits up again. DD woke at 12 and got hysterical when I didn't feed her, so I gave in but didn't let her fall asleep, just spent ages rocking her instead. She then woke again at 4 and there was no settling her, feeding didn't even make her drowsy. I gave in at 5.30 and got up. Finally got her to nap around 7 by feeding her, I had no resolve left by that point. Unsurprisingly we are both tired and grumpy today! DP's contribution was to attempt to rock her for 5 mins around 5am then have a strop about how he had to go to work as though it was my fault she wouldn't sleep. I'm not impressed, he's not usually so unhelpful.

Amanda I hope your DD is OK. Will she take a bottle? Mine won't, or a dummy, so can't even try the cold formula trick!

Liveinthepresent Mon 03-Mar-14 18:16:47

Hi Artemis I would 100% recommend her based on my limited experience - but as I mentioned before you do have to be committed.
Whats limiting our progress is our own strength of resolve.. We are a bit without a proper plan at the moment because we wimp out. I need DH on board and DS ideally not ill.. Plan to get back on track this week.

If you go for it personally I would go for a full package unless you are feeling really strong!
She will ask you to do a sleep diary and tell her about your routines and parenting style and then put together a plan with you.
I imagine you would end up with a similar diagnosis to me - ie need to reduce the boob to sleep factor (no shit!!) - which it sounds like you were tackling really well at the weekend.
What I loved about her advice was that its step by step and she suggests seemingly small things that feel achievable.
Unfortunately at the moment the changes I have made haven't resulted in more sleep but I feel that she has given me a clear focus that I lacked before.

One thing she said which stayed with me was that how he gets to sleep at bedtime is very important - so we started on removing the feed to sleep at bedtime. She also indicated that feeding to sleep is one of the most powerful associations and therefore hardest to break! ( sorry all!)

Maybe PM me if you have other questions?
Hope she wouldn't mind what I have shared as I am a fan!!

I suspect I will need her again.

Scrumptiousboy Mon 03-Mar-14 19:23:54

I'm not entirely convinced it's all down to feeding to sleep I have to say. I have friends whose babies feed to sleep and sleep through the night. Some just get it, others don't. I think there is a lot to say on how you respond to them when they wake up. And of course, some may have an illness at the heart of it - DS is allergic to dairy. His sleep was diabolical until it was discovered at 7,5months. It's been a slow ride since then to fix it.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 03-Mar-14 20:12:16

Babyclarke is much better today thank you Artemis
yes she takes a bottle and I give her water sometimes, which sometimes works.
I too, am confused by the feed to sleep thing.
But I think I need to help her find ways of self settling.
I'm so rubbish at it though.
She hasn't be become attached to a comforter.

Tbh I fed to sleep tonight.
I'm just so tired and desperate for them both to go to sleep.
Now I ave to make their packed lunges. All I want to do is lie down.

Night all.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 03-Mar-14 20:15:02

Lunches grin

Liveinthepresent Mon 03-Mar-14 21:21:04

Glad your DD is better Amanda - DS was fed to sleep tonight and woke up coughing just now so am currently feeding again. Aargh!
I kind of agree Scrumptious -my DD slept through from about 12 weeks with barely a glitch and I didn't even used to think about any if this stuff... But what I do know is that with DS I went for easy life and fed to sleep / sling fir naps / rocked to sleep and feel like he just hasn't learned how to do it by himself.. Not sure how much of that is him or me tbh.
Feel despairing today - bet Ann Caird will be wishing I wasn't associated with her name!!

ikeaismylocal Tue 04-Mar-14 19:34:43

I was wondering if I could join you? My ds is 14 months old and we are attempting to night wean him, I'm (newly) pregnant and ds likes to use me as a dummy fro most of the night, it is like he is half latched on constantly, I didn't mind until I became pregnant and now I just can't stand the feeling.

We started on Saturday night, we intended to follow jay gordon's method so still feeding for a short time and then patting/cuddling to sleep for the 1st 3 nights, then stopping feeding altogether the next 3 nights and then no picking up just touching and talking to the baby.

we were going to impliment the new rules between 10pm and 5am, I still feed him to sleep at 5.30ish and if he wakes before 10pm I feed him to sleep.

Saturday night was hard, he woke at 1.30 and cried on and off for an hour sad He was just furious not heartbroken or worried just really really angry, I had given him a quick feed and I felt that made things worse so we decided I wouldn't feed him again. He then slept until 6am.

Sunday night I fed him to sleep at 5.30, he slept all evening which is very unlike him, he woke once at around 3ish and asked for a cuddle rather than asking for boob, I cuddled him and he went to sleep in a few minutes and slept till 6 (12.5 hours with no boob I was very pleased with him!!)

Monday night he didn't really wake up he just rolled over and cuddled me, once he was in a deeper sleep I rolled him back into his space and he continued to sleep.

Tonight he hasn't woken (yet) I hope he has another good night. It seems like he really needed to night wean as he sleeps much deeper and longer now.

I felt terrible about the hour of crying, really really bad and once he was asleep I sobbed and I was dreading having weeks and weeks of crying but I really think it was the best choice for both of us in the long run. We still co-sleep but I love co-sleeeping and don't have any desire for him to be in his own bed yet, we have a cot bed attatched to our bed but with a side taken off so he does have his own space.

I havn't really thought about stopping feeding him to sleep, I wonder if I need to. We explain to him every evening in the bath that he is going to have bedtime boobie but if he wakes in the night the boobies are "all gone" and he can have cuddles but nio boobie, he seems to except this, he nods very solemnly

I think that I may be being lulled into a false sence of security with his night weaning so it would be great to have so others to share experiences with!

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 04-Mar-14 19:48:53

Hi ikeaismylocal
Thanks for sharing your story here.
Re: feeding to sleep; all the "experts" seem to reckon that's a key part of helping them learn to "go through" IYSWIM.
But I think ppl's views here are mixed.
I am ambivalent (sort of my default setting on most issues grin)

I've just fed DD to sleep. She's a lot better now but still not 100%.
Maybe I'd be better off with a "don't offer, don't refuse" stance on night feeds. I think I'll try water first, and cuddles and offer a short feed if that's not working out.
I know that chopping and changing my approach probably isn't help ing.
Sometimes I think I'm not bothered but I really would like some uninterrupted nights. I'd like to not have to bed before 9 just to get any sleep at all.

Hey HO.
Good night wishes to you all.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 07-Mar-14 02:06:09

Hello all.
DD much better. Although still teething of course. Thank you for asking.

I bf her to sleep last night blush. I must admit, I really struggle with not doing this because I feed her while I read to her and DS and they both happily drift off through this routine. So messing with it seems awkward and risky.
Just given her another feed and some nurofen. Dare I try to put her in her cot? grin

I realise at some point I need to stop the night feeds altogether having reduced them [worry emoticom]
I hope you are all sleeping soundly <optimistic>

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 07-Mar-14 02:57:49

Hi, amanda. 3am here, been up since 1. Trying to feed to sleep for the 2nd time. She'll drop off but when I try to unlatch her just wakes and cries. Stopping feed to sleep has been an epic fail, I just can't cope with the hours of crying every night, but sleep deprivation for her and me is getting worse and worse. I'm beginning to despair sad

Could you continue with your night time routine (which sounds lovely) and just stop feeds after that, or are they too closely related?

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 07-Mar-14 03:43:26

Artemis you poor thing. I really feel for you.

I think that I might well abandon the plan to stop feeding to sleep.
I remain unconvinced of its worth tbh.

I hope you are asleep now. If not brew
DD fell asleep and I put her in her cot just after my last post. <crosses fingers>
I, however, have too much on my mind now so I can't sleep sad

I like your suggestion. I think I am going to just carry n feeding to sleep at bedtime and then take a gentle approach to weaning off the night feeds.
So I'll offer a cuddle, water, and if she's insistent then a feed. See how it goes.

Scrumptiousboy Sat 08-Mar-14 21:35:16

Really glad to hear your little one is on the mend amanda. This journey is never easy and what works for one family, doesn't work for another. I too think your evening routine sounds so lovely, it would be a shame to disrupt it. These early days (I still think they are that) re over all too soon and some of us will miss attending to these little ones like we do now. It's hard when your in the middle of it all when it's draining your own resources, but it is still so short lived in the grand scheme of things.

Liveinthepresent Sat 08-Mar-14 22:28:56

Scrumptious thank you so much for that post. I am still here and feeling really low tonight. I need that perspective. I just told DH I feel like life is on hold until DS sleeps.
DS is ill again/ still and I have had such an exhausting week for a whole load of reasons. I was really looking forward to the weekend but he has woken twice already tonight and I have no stamina left to face the night shift.
Amanda glad you sound in a good place about your approach.

ArtemisTheHunter Sun 09-Mar-14 00:16:58

Scrumptious another vote of thanks for that perspective. Need to keep reminding myself DD won't be this tiny and dependent for ever. When she hits adolescence and can't bear me anywhere near her I daresay I'll look back on these days with nostalgia and wonder where the time went.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 09-Mar-14 05:21:43

Agree, thanks for that post scrumptious How's it going for you ?

And thanks for all the good wishes for DD.

liveinthepresent sorry about your DS being I'll. It's exhausting and the nights can be utterly soul destroying. I too, feel a bit like life is "on hold" until the sleeping is sorted. Very insightful comment.
Fwiw, last week with poorly DD and rubbish work I felt so drained it was like a whole new level of "nothing left to give". Now she's better I'm still tired and a bit irritable tbh blush but I feel so much better. I predict you've got some better nights to come when your DS is feeling better. But brew and cake in the meantime.

True Atremis

I think <fingers crossed> we're down to one feed a night. (although on Friday night she woke with the alarm at 23:00 and I foolishly fed her back to sleep.
She very kindly slept until 04:00 tonight. Just fed her back to sleep. I think she might be stirring now though.

DH is snoring. angry

Scrumptiousboy Sun 09-Mar-14 19:13:11

I say that cos I too sometimes need to remind mysel that really is the case - I just can't believe how quickly his first year has gone and we have so so many lovely memories from it, the sleep thing doesn't even really register (well, a little ;-))
DS has again had a cold and after 2/3 good nights, we were back to frequent wake ups but thankfully he was happy to settle for DH a lot of the time. Unfortunately he's taken to waking up early now, which is new. I ended up handing him to DH at 6am and went back to sleep - breakfast at 10am here! Let's see how tonight goes again...

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 09-Mar-14 19:43:58

I hope DS is better scrumptious
DD has not eaten well today. But she had a good nap and lots of play. Fingers crossed.
Good luck everyone.

Shattered!

Liveinthepresent Sun 09-Mar-14 22:29:38

Thanks amanda honestly I had forgotten how much better this thread makes me feel.
Despite the rubbish weekend I am feeling upbeat. My reasons are-
1. The sun shone today
2. dS napped in his cot this morning ( first time ever!!)
3. DH and I have agreed a slowly slowly plan
4. I am having lunch with an old friend tomorrow
5. DS has lasted 2.5 hours without waking ( more than all of last night!!)

Wishing Sleep to us all !

Liveinthepresent Sun 09-Mar-14 23:13:00

I am much less positive now . Can't get him to sleep again.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 10-Mar-14 06:12:06

Bugger!
I was just about to get the Pom poms out Livinginthepresent
It's miserable. I know.
I saw a friend yesterday and made the mistake of saying DD was doing quite well at night grin
She was awake before 10 for some reason and I fed her back to le because I was desperate to get back to cleaning up so I could go to bed.
Then she was awake for a feed around 1 and it was hard to settle he but we co slept on the "futon" and she's just woken up. Feeding now.
It's all so tiring and relentles. There is no rest sad

Liveinthepresent Mon 10-Mar-14 08:50:38

Thanks amanda keep the Pom poms handy - surely we will need them soon?
Sorry yours wasn't great. It was a better night here in the end- slept from 23.30-3 then 3.30-6.35 - and then DH took DD and DS downstairs and I have had another hour and a half sleep.
So I guess that's back to 'normal' but there are no long stretches to give me hope for the future.
Am trying to get positive mood back - at least the sun is out again - and I am looking forward to seeing my friend later.

Has anyone had success with sending their DH in with a bottle / beaker ?

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 10-Mar-14 21:14:09

That sounds more manageable livinginthepresent
I cba to send dh in tbh.
Tonight I forgot to sort dd's water bottle so it's fingers crossed that she doesn't want a feed before 1am. grin
I really cba to go downstairs to sort oit out. Isn't that ridiculous?
I need to start dropping that 1 am feed now. Maybe not give a feed before 3am?

Liveinthepresent Mon 10-Mar-14 23:29:54

Amanda I generally CBA about most things during this sleep deprivation! I guess that's partly why DS got used to being fed back to sleep.
Had such a good day today. Met an old friend who is very very relaxed and un judgey. She told me her DH ( lovely DH too) was totally bloody useless during small baby stage and that she felt similar angst at sleep deprivation. She has survived.
However now on second wake up and feeling panicky about work tomorrow. This is what I spent the last few months of maternity leave dreading..
You are doing so well. Hope tonight goes ok too.

GingerMaman Mon 10-Mar-14 23:33:01

We've already had two awakenings and she's only been asleep 3 hours! hmm

Liveinthepresent Mon 10-Mar-14 23:52:50

Yep that's me too ginger normally doesn't bode well...
Good luck!

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 11-Mar-14 02:39:49

Oh poor Ginger and living

I have just fed dd back to sleep. Although I did do a bit of PPO at the end. She's sleeping beside me now. I do think, ATM, that she actually needs that one feed. Maybe I'm kidding myself.

I'm always panicking about the following day. Work is tough as it is. And on my days off I feel so guilty for struggling and worry about not making the most of my time with them.

DH is good during the day. Apart from the messyness(which is literally record-breaking) he does a lot with he dcs. But he has a very superior attitude towards his work and the need for sleep. I sometimes worry I'll wake up and find an axe in the back of his head grin
I reckon these Early years are very testing for most relationships.
Sleep well

HawkeyeInChaos Tue 11-Mar-14 03:43:42

It's not going well. He has managed to self settle in my arms a couple of times. Encouraging him to self settle in the cot with my support did NOT go well.

On the plus side, he did sleep for 3 whole wonderful hours last night (after spending the first part of the night doing his usual hourly wakings, and the middle part just awake)

Will continue with the PPO and hope for better soon.

PrincessPotsie Tue 11-Mar-14 03:51:04

Hi everyone. Have lost the thread for a few days and couldn't find it despite searching. I have missed you! Finally just got DD back asleep in her cot so will be back later to catch up with all your posts.

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 11-Mar-14 07:08:35

HI princess

I know you must be shattered Hawkeye but I think you have done well. You can get him to settle at times without a feed. That's really good.
I just wish it all happened much quicker for us all.

Dd woke again at 5 and I fed her to sleep. Now I have to dash to work. Yuck

PrincessPotsie Tue 11-Mar-14 22:24:21

Hi everyone....the battle for sleep continues!

Not done a dream feed at 10.30 for a few nights now which is great but has meant DD has woken twice in the night at around midnight and 3.30am. I'm actually more tired than before which kind of defeats the object.

We've moved the cot base gown to midway so not sure if that is freaking DD out as she has started waking and really crying and then not settling t fast asleep in my arms. Sooooooo tired now now would love a few long sleeps....

Wishing you all good nights.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 12-Mar-14 05:04:59

Oh princess making the change is too hard.
I think we should change the thread to "let's moan about night feeds and just celebrate when they end naturally" I have lost faith.

DD had her one year booster jabs yesterday. She was awake at 23:00 (I'd gone to bed at 22:30) and was not satisfied by having water. Bf back to sleep and lay with her on the "futon"
Then lots of being unsettled but woke at 04:00 with a fever, cue nurofen and bf. now she's back to sleep, bless her, but I cannot sleep. Humph!
I am almost derranged with sleep deprivation and have the most ridiculous work day ahead.

Please tell me someone is having a better night. grin

PrincessPotsie Wed 12-Mar-14 14:18:47

TheRealAC I really feel for you as you've had a tough few nights recently. I hope your LO is feeling better today and your day at work is going quickly. I don't know how you manage to work when feeling so tired: it must be really hard.

I agree with changing the thread title as none of us seem to be getting anywhere near dropping night feeds! I don't really want to stop bfeeding but I am tempted to give DD some formula before bed to see if it makes a difference to sleep.....probably not though.

Liveinthepresent Wed 12-Mar-14 23:28:56

Amanda / therealAC I am so sorry you descended back into ill DD mode - hope its been ok today?
Am still here, still tired , not really tackling night wakings at all.

dS is back to a bit more of a normal pattern - but woke within 2 hours from bedtime so am not hopeful.

Can anyone advise cakebaby on the NCSS thread about PPO technique? She isn't getting any answers.

Good luck for the night.

PrincessPotsie Thu 13-Mar-14 13:45:04

Good news=DD has dropped 10.30pm dream feed.
Bad news=DD is now waking at midnight and 4ish for feeds instead of the one wake up that she was doing when dream feeding. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 13-Mar-14 20:21:41

Omg.
DH has taken it apron himself to put dd to bed. She wouldn't bf to sleep to night with me.
He is with her, cuddling her and has given her a bottle of formula. But she's crying very loudly.
I want to burst in there and take her off him shock

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 13-Mar-14 20:33:15

Hi. I replied to cakebaby (am good at the "theory" grin)

Well, he threw in the towel, thank goodness. It was better that he ask for hip than me going in and taking over. Ooh, stressy. I was also worried DS old wake up.
I don't know HO anyone can cope with CIO. 5 minutes of her crying while being held was more Han enough.
I feel a bit bad for dh. She calmed down as soon as I took her. Instantly!
She's asleep now after a 2 mi ute feed.
One teeny step at a time.
Night night.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 13-Mar-14 20:33:53

hip ??
Help. grin

PrincessPotsie Thu 13-Mar-14 22:43:24

Good try TheRealAC's DH but it's not a easy as you think is it?! Hoping you all have good nights.

PrincessPotsie Thu 13-Mar-14 22:44:26

DD awake already....

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 14-Mar-14 07:54:23

It was the same here princess DD was awake around 11. Then again at about4. Did you get any sleep?
I'm wondering how many of our "difficult" sleepers are breastfeeding? I know that lots of people say giving a bottle helps but does it? Is it because the baby can learn to settle with pther people (dd only settles with me) or is it a crock of shit?
I'm happy ish to keep breastfeeding but i am keen to know what's working for everyone else.

Liveinthepresent Fri 14-Mar-14 15:47:17

Hello all ... I am in a rare good mood here.
Amanda I chuckled at your posts re DH mine does that sometimes.. Its so hard to listen to isn't it.
Actually I am currently working hard at little steps towards to DS settling with DH at bedtime - because if I know he will go to sleep with him the idea is he can help at least with the first wake up. And in theory it reduces association of milk for sleep.
Work in progress though !

Anyway I have to say last two nights have been the best for a while.. Might even need those Pom poms !
Last night he slept from 8-11.15 , then fed him and he slept from 11.30-5.30 - I had almost six hours unbroken sleep. Even more encouraging I fed him then but he was so awake he didn't drop off and I didn't expect him to go back down - but I popped him in the cot wide awake he chatted for a bit then dropped off for another hour.
Amazing.
I feel so alert today - it's like life in HD !
Please let this be our turning point.

If I can get to one or two wake ups I reckon I have more chance of tackling them.

PrincessPotsie Fri 14-Mar-14 19:01:54

Wow Livein that's great! Hope DS is a good boy again tonight.

I did get some sleep though obviously not enough. DD awake again from 1-2 and then at 5 but at least she didn't need a dream feed while I was still awake

I'm interested to see if the thread's bad sleepers are bfed?

Am going to attempt to settle DD without a feed for first wake up of the night tonight though think she knows and is thinking 'you've got no chance!'

Here's hoping some of us get sleep throughs......

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 14-Mar-14 19:51:47

Great going liveinthepresent
And good luck princess with settling. I have given up for now.
I have no idea what to expect tonight. Both DCs are shattered. DS is asleep. DD almost so.
I have a few hours' work to do. Really really could do without that. I would love for DD to sleep reasonably well tonight. Please.
Good luck for a good night everyone.

Liveinthepresent Fri 14-Mar-14 19:52:54

Thanks Princess fingers crossed all round.
Yes my DS is BF too.
But my DD was too - and was an amazing sleeper. I have given much thought to whether I have done things differently with DS or whether he is different. It's so hard to tell - its probably both.
I have definitely resorted to the boob more frequently and readily this time - because of already being frazzled by having a toddler around, not wanting to wake her, wanting to be able to spend time with her etc.
But with DD because she slept so well from very young I just didn't need settling strategies in the night - on the rare occasions she woke it was always for a reason so hunger wasn't a factor.

Not sure that post helps anyone apart from to make me think I didn't know how lucky I was with DD!

HawkeyeInChaos Fri 14-Mar-14 21:03:56

Really struggling at the moment. Ds is protesting as soon as I put him in his cot. Every time. And if I don't scoop him up quickly he really screams, high pitched nerve jangling screams. He goes quiet the moment he's picked up though. At the moment I'm getting only 2-3 hours sleep each night, in little bursts rather than a solid block.

I'm finding it really difficult at the moment.

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 14-Mar-14 23:06:26

Hawkeye we are struggling here too. DD has been waking twice in the night for 2-3 hours at a time, I can get her to drop off by feeding but the second I put her down she wakes and screams. It doesn't matter if it's in the cot or on the bed with me, she reacts like she's being murdered. It's horrible. I am so sick of people telling me to put her in the cot and leave her to cry, she is beside herself in minutes, but like you I'm really struggling on 3-4 hours of broken sleep a night.

Yes DD is EBF. She refuses bottles and dummies, probably because they don't cuddle her all night like her idiot mother. I don't know if there are any stats out there but anecdotally, most of my friends with babies the same age formula feed and their babies sleep through. One NCT friend was moaning this week that her DD had stopped sleeping 7 - 7 and was now sleeping 7 - 6 instead and the lack of sleep was 'killing' her hmm. I nearly gave it a helping hand grin.

HawkeyeInChaos Fri 14-Mar-14 23:39:03

Sorry you're going through similar Artemis. It's crap isn't it?

Ds is still bf, but is also on solids. He had a nice bowl of porridge tonight, but it hasn't helped. He isn't even hungry half the time. Just pissed off that he's in the cot, not his idiot mother's arms.

I'm also being told to let him cry himself to sleep, but like you I don't feel comfortable with that approach. But the current situation can't continue.

Liveinthepresent Fri 14-Mar-14 23:46:35

Hawkeye and artemis hang in there.
However bad it is it will get better.
Do whatever you can to get some rest. Everything becomes easier when you have slept enough to think. I feel for you.
It does change so much when they are little - even one or two good nights enable me to see how much progress we have made.
Good luck

PrincessPotsie Sat 15-Mar-14 08:19:42

Morning all and hope you had better nights Hawkeye and Artemis. That little sleep must be exhausting.

DD woke three times during the night but I feel like we made a tiny breakthrough as DH settled her at first wake up, I fed her at second and settled her without feeding when she woke for the third time.

Now I just have to stay as strong tonight.....

Liveinthepresent Sat 15-Mar-14 09:48:15

Morning all ! Princess that sounds great - that's what I was sort of aiming for.
I am shocked and amazed to report last night was even better - DS woke and I fed him at about 11.30 - thrn he slept right through to 6.30.

I have no idea whether this is down to my efforts or just his own development.

Of course I fully expect hourly wake ups re reappear with the next illness / teething - but for today I am going to focus on the fact that I have a baby napping in cot , going to bed awake, and doing decent blocks of sleep.

Hope everyone else was ok ? Amanda I cross posted with you yesterday - sorry you were also having work pressure- it really is all too much at times. Hope the weekend gives you a little respite.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 15-Mar-14 20:19:50

Oh god I'm so rubbish
Well done to princess and to postie
Sorry atremis and hawkeye it's sounds too tough. Bleugh!
I have no advice though as I am so utterly shit at this. What was I thinking with this thread? I should have a ban on me from talking about sleep.

What helps me? Erm, I have a double matress on the floor in dd's room. When she wakes I go in, take her out of her cot and co sleep and/or feed her (retitle thread "how to keep night feeding for the rest of your life"). It's not moving us forward but I've actually had some sleep and feel a lot less homicidal towards DH.
Dd has a bit of a cold and a lingering cough. I am determined to offer water before a bf and I'm taking a dint offer, don't refuse approach to bf at night. I've just bf her but she pushed away before sleeping so didn't bf to sleep tonight. I wish she had though because I feel all full on one side <never happy>
Oh good luck people. Please keep sharing, you're giving me strength.

ArtemisTheHunter Sat 15-Mar-14 22:09:55

We had a better night last night, at least better in the context of the last few weeks. Two wake-ups, DP settled at first, I BF at 3am but she did seem hungry and I actually managed to get her back down rather than having her anchored onto my boob for the next 2 hours. So far tonight she has woke numerous times but DP has managed to settle her without picking up. He's got a cough which he's using as an excuse to escape to the spare room so as not to wake her up. I really hope she's kind to me tonight, I've got an interview next week and could do with a few reasonable nights. I'm not thinking about what it will be like if I get this contract and am back at work in 3 weeks' time.

Good to hear people are making progress. I really should have gone to bed an hour ago but it's Saturday night, trying to fake a kind of normality by staying up beyond 9.30pm <yawns>

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 15-Mar-14 22:16:43

Good luck artemis

HawkeyeInChaos Sat 15-Mar-14 22:38:54

Well, ds finally went to sleep sometime just before 0300, and dd woke me at 0630. But I did get 3 1/2 hours unbroken sleep between those times so it could have been worse.

On the plus side, ds is getting better at self settling (or, at least not feeding to sleep). He just hates his cot and wakes and screams as soon as I put him in it.

Good luck everyone for tonight.

Liveinthepresent Sat 15-Mar-14 23:29:14

Me again - good luck everyone.
I have irrational anxiety tonight as DS has literally never done more than 2 good nights in a row.. So I fed him just now and am praying for another long stint. He is coughing and seems unsettled but hope I am in for a pleasant surprise.
Artemis am glad that sounds more manageable.
Hawkeye the self settling has to be a good sign? It seems to be with me DS at the moment.
And forgive the unsolicited advice as am sure you know all the theory - but the sleep lady I spoke to ( discussed up thread somewhere !) was very positive about conscious cot play to build positive associations - you may have done this but its easy enough to keep trying just in case ..
Night all !

HawkeyeInChaos Sun 16-Mar-14 01:00:33

Any advice or suggestions are welcome Liveinthepresent.

I have tried positive cot play but he never seems happy in there. I'll persist.

Liveinthepresent Sun 16-Mar-14 02:49:04

am up with DS - gutted !!
Tried to cuddle and not feed but no joy.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 16-Mar-14 17:09:34

liveintheprsent so sorry. It's a process though isn't it? I think it always takes time.
But I am so tired with it all.
I definitely need to offer dd some cot play. Trouble is, I feel so ridiculously busy. I am always chasing my tail, and feel overwhelmed with everything thee is to do at home tbh.
Well, she's just fallen asleep, a ridiculously late nap. I will wake her now and give her some food.

PrincessPotsie Sun 16-Mar-14 22:39:16

Gutted for you Liveinthe. Was hoping you'd cracked it. Hope your DS sleeps well again for you tonight and last night was a blip.

I was rubbish last night. DD woke three times and I fed her each time. She def wanted the first and last but the second was a quick comfort feed so I was gutted that I didn't try and comfort her without first.

It's so hard to think rationally in the night especially when you're exhausted. I'm in new territory too as DD1 and DS were having bottles by DD2's age (9mnths) and had dummies. I'd always have tried settling them before giving them a bottle so this time everything's the other way around.

Here's hoping for lots of sleep tonight for us all

PrincessPotsie Mon 17-Mar-14 03:57:53

Was feeling quite pleased that DD had slept from 6.30 -3 and have just tried to settle her and get her back to sleep without feeding for an hour. She was quite happy to be cuddled as she sucked her thumb but couldn't seem to drop off properly.......so I'm feeding her! wish I'd fed her an hour ago now I suppose if I was bottle feeding I'd probably have given up after an hour a d given her milk.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Mar-14 06:40:16

princess you are so right about decision making and rational thinking in the night. I would do almost anything to be allowed to go back to sleep, so a breastfeed seems like the perfect option.
My new plan is "don't offer- don't refuse" before 6am.
I will give cuddles and water. Is she really needs a feed I will feed her then. But I'll try the other stuff first.
Last night she went to sleep around 7:30 and didn't wake until around 4am. I fed her then and she went back to sleep until 6am. I think I actually had some rem sleep. I'm tired but feel amazing compared to most days. It real,ly is astonishing what a few hours sleep can do. And I woke up at 2 (out of habit and worry I guess) but I still feel much more rested than normal.
So full of good plans now.

Good luck all.

PrincessPotsie Mon 17-Mar-14 12:41:26

That's brilliant TheRealAC! I bet you're feeling strange after having so much sleep!

I think I'll join you with the 'don't offer, don't refuse' idea and see how it goes.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Mar-14 19:58:47

It did feel strange princess
Just bf to sleep now.
I remembered the idea about adding sleep cues as baby drifts off. So as she was going to sleep I stroked her head and did gentle rocking and shushing.
I need to keep that up.
Hoping for a decent night. It's been a tough day at work and I've got a punishing coule of days ahead too.
Why oh why did I not make the most of my mat leave?

Liveinthepresent Mon 17-Mar-14 20:08:18

Evening all - just checking in. TheRealAC wow that's amazing - I couldn't believe how good the sleep felt either.
Really hope you stay on this path now.
So excluding illness it sounds like things have really improved since you started the thread.
Same with you Princess - overall it seems like you are making progress too.
Had a weird day yesterday and DS wouldn't nap in the cot all day - but he only woke twice at 11 ish and 4 - so it's kind of tolerable though disappointing after the really good nights.
Got him down for 2 naps in cot today so that's better.
I am not tackling night wakes at all yet - still feeding - just vaguely hoping he will stop needing them of his own accord when I get all the self settling stuff in place.
Sorry am rambling - good nights all.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Mar-14 20:13:58

Spoke too soon.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 17-Mar-14 21:06:42

Totally good plan liveinthe present
Well omfg! Dd has woken three times since I put her down.
I'm stressed now. I need a shower and to get to bed. I asked dh to listen out for her while I went to make a tea. FFS. Is he deaf?
Must dash, off to look up how to dispose of a 6' 6" body grin

Liveinthepresent Mon 17-Mar-14 21:28:34

therealAC you poor thing that sounds souls destroying. Hope she settles down for you.

PrincessPotsie Tue 18-Mar-14 05:14:46

Oh no AC.....how has the rest of your night gone?

I'm sure the wake ups are hopefully going to become less for you now Livein. Hope you got another good night last night.

DD woke at 11.30 but I settled her to sleep without a feed and she's just woken now and I'm feeding her as it will save me doing it when morning comes in the madness of getting everyone ready for the school run.

She wasn't really properly crying when she woke, just more like making noise so I think I need to leave her for a bit longer before going into her. One thing at a time though.....

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 18-Mar-14 17:16:37

Yes, one thing at a time.
I really don't know hat happened last night. I think I spent most of the night in dd's room but I was too tired to check the time.
Feeling tired. It's been exhausting at work and dh is pissing me off by making little digs. Then I call him on it and he accuses me of being argumentative. I have actually got the rage with him right now so feeding dd to calm me down.

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 18-Mar-14 19:38:07

Bedtime feed. Hoping to let her fill her tummy.dS is asleep.
They're so cute. I could just snuggle them to bits.
Please, please please let's all have a reasonable night. I have an absolute bitch of a day ahead of me. All the best to you sleep warriors.

fertilizemyeggsbenedict Tue 18-Mar-14 21:10:56

Can I just say, I really appreciate the humour in all these sleep deprived posts - well done ladies and thank you for making me laugh!

I have just had "the conversation" with DH. DS is 14 months and has NEVER slept longer than 2.5hours at night without waking up. I still BF him back to sleep in the night but I rock him to sleep in the first instance. I have only JUST started to REALLY want to put a stop to this so I am reading with interest everyone's experiences, so thanks for sharing, best of luck!

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Mar-14 03:07:35

Hi fertilizemyeggsbenedict. Great name btw
been awake for feeds a few times. Not sure when.
Dd has a cold poor little thing. I seem to have it too.
Dh has it also, but apparently much worse. Claims he's awake all night coughing. hmm
Anyway. I actually now hold out no hope whatsoever of making a change.

Liveinthepresent Wed 19-Mar-14 04:24:15

TherealAC that's so disappointing - these colds are our enemy!

I don't know how true this is but FWIW but the sleep lady I spoke to said babies with strong feed to sleep association are always very prone to regressing to needing it when ill - partly why I am still trying to break it.

Though I haven't done anything new for ages - need to get DH to trying putting him down for the night soon - but dreading upsetting current calm phase.

We are stuck on 2 wakes again. Bearable -last night he slept through the 11pm feed and woke at 1 then 5 thrn 7. Tonight it's been 11 then 4 - am feeding now. I have been getting one chunk of 4 hours sleep at least and this seems to be a help in my energy levels.

princess hope it's still looking good for you.

fertlize hello and welcome!

PrincessPotsie Wed 19-Mar-14 05:44:25

Last night I was saying to DH how I can't imagine what having a full nights sleep will feel after not having one for 10 months now and that's not counting all the nights before DD was born when my other 2 DC would wake.

I wonder if we'll all ever get there? It's so frustrating trying to change sleeping habits and I think we're all getting a taste of one step forward, two back.

We had a similar pattern last night. Asleep til 12, settled without a feed after a bloody hour, feed just now and asleep again. If she could just sleep through til 5.....

Hope your day at wotk is bearable AC and that you all get over the cold quickly, esp DH as if he's anything like mine he'll be the most annoying when ill. Imagine if they had to be pregnant and give birth? We would never hear the end of it!

Livein I hope your two wake ups soon become one. And welcome Fertilize. It sounds like enough is enough for you too. Did you try anything new last night?

Have a good day all brew brew brew

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Mar-14 06:40:05

liveinthepresent I think you're right about the feeding associatin and the regression. sad I'm pleased you're getting a bit of sleep. I definintkey feel better for mo than 3 hours in a row.
The v early morning (ds was up at five) is a bastard though.
And yes postie I often wonder if we'll ever get there. We simply can't have any evening together until the sleep is sorted. It feels like an insane treadmill ATM.
I am trying a bit of PPO at bedtime. Maybe I should try harder.

PrincessPotsie Wed 19-Mar-14 07:36:34

PPO??

fertilizemyeggsbenedict Wed 19-Mar-14 09:25:42

Thanks for the welcome ladies. We didn't try anything different last night cos I'm just too shattered at the mo. And as we all know, change requires effort. We've had a run of horrendous nights with DS being awake for 1-2 hours at a time usually from 3 or 4am which is such a killer, rather than the somehow manageable just waking for a quick feed 5-6 times. When we get a couple of those nights we're going to try the Dr Jay Gordon method. We still cosleep so I think it'll be the best method. Altho I need to read the no cry sleep solution, I think it's similar. Oh and PPO is the Pantley Pull Off I believe - can someone elaborate?

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Mar-14 19:25:33

I haven't hear of the dr jay Gordon method fertz

PPO is the pantley pull off. From ncss
Start by taking baby off boob at end of feed. Then progress to pulling nipple out of babys mouth during the pause when s/he is doing fluttery sucks at the end of the feed, gradually progressing to stopping the feed when baby is still awake but relaxed IYSWIM.
It can take some time. Each stage might take 10 days or more because you pull nipple out and cuddle baby, gently holding under their chin with a finger and if they really fuss put back on and try again after counting to 10 or 20 or whatever.
I did it with ds it now I can't even remember if it worked or if he just started to sleep through aged 2 ish. shock

Liveinthepresent Wed 19-Mar-14 19:50:03

Evening all - just came across this a quite interesting even though am not sure it counts as saying something helpful!

www.babysleepsite.com/sleep-training/why-pantley-no-cry-sleep-solution-doesnt-always-work/

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 19-Mar-14 20:10:56

Well I am bf dd again. She wouldn't settle.
I don't have the strength to make a change tbh.
I am just so unbelieveably desperate for rest.
Thanks for the link.
I'm not sure I really understood it though blush
I mean, I get that NCSS might not work. But I don't really see what her idea wasbiyswim.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 20-Mar-14 04:48:40

Awake again. In fact, awake for most of the night.
Teeth? Cold? Shit mother? Not sure which is bothering her now tbh.
I honestly believe that nothing works.
Apart from bottle feeding from very young or CIO.
Too late for the first and I'm not doing the latter so I'm just going to have to keep getting up and try to minimise my suicide risk stress by co sleeping and just wait until this year is up and hope my marriage and career haven't fallen apart by then
Good luck to all of you I really hope you have better luck.

Liveinthepresent Thu 20-Mar-14 05:29:23

Oh therealAC please don't give up - it's a journey you said - you have made progress it's just that something is causing a mini regression. There will be a reason and it is definitely not you being a shit mother!
Will be back tomorrow - going to try to get another hours sleep now

fertilizemyeggsbenedict Thu 20-Mar-14 10:30:17

Forth night in a row, or maybe fifth, that DS has been awake for more than an hour from about 4am, this is on top of his usual 2-3 hourly interval wake ups. I don't know how I'm still alive. DH is managing to rock him back to sleep as he won't have me doing it. I'm blaming teeth for the sake of my sanity.

Anyway, wasn't online last night at all as went to bed 9pm (managed to get some decent kip). The Jay Gordon method sounds v similar to PPO
drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html
Still feeding for the first 3 days but putting them down awake, then not feeding but staying with them.

If I was to get the NCSS which book would I get for my 14MO? I notice there's a baby one and a toddler/preschooler. DS is defo a toddler physically, but he doesn't understand what a 20MO would.

Also, great link, Liveinthepresent about why the NCSS might not work - I suspect I have one of these babies anyway!!

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 20-Mar-14 10:42:03

I have both NCSS books.
I prefer the baby one.
I'll look at those links again now. Thanks
not that anything works sad

fertilizemyeggsbenedict Thu 20-Mar-14 10:45:37

Thanks AC. Look at it this way - at least you're trying something, I've been too chicken to even start yet! I need to prepare more by reading EVERYTHING there is out there hmm

PrincessPotsie Thu 20-Mar-14 20:07:23

You can't give up AC as you were my inspiration and I'll have to give up too then. Is DD your first DC? Just wondering as I often get annoyed that any change takes so long and a wise old granny at playgroup once said that you can try what you like to get them to change but if they're not ready it's tough, you'll have to wait longer. This was re DS's appalling behaviour when he was two, hitting, pushing, biting etc. I know we can try and influence their behaviours but it's down to them in the end.

Was chatting to my mum about my plans not to feed DD in night and I realised that my efforts in the last couple of weeks have achieved a reversal of feeding times. So all I've done is change DD's waking pattern but I'm still waking as much, if not more in the night Ggggrrrrrrrrrrr angry

I doubt I'll be back during the night asDD will prob sleep through!!!

Liveinthepresent Thu 20-Mar-14 21:10:24

I can't post properly as loads going on here - but no way is our OP giving up - she makes me laugh in the face of exhaustion and I feel like we are all making progress.

Princess - interestingly therealAC you and I all have other DC - wonder if this is a factor ?

I am scared to be too positive but things are going well - need your support

PrincessPotsie Thu 20-Mar-14 22:10:36

DD awake and has a new cold....one step forward, two back..... Will be back during the night.....boo hoo

PrincessPotsie Thu 20-Mar-14 22:12:41

Sorry AC just read some if your first posts and remembered that you have a DS too.

PrincessPotsie Thu 20-Mar-14 23:54:21

Have completely cursed myself with the stupid sleeping through comment as DD has now been awake and crying on and off for 2 hrs. Every time I put her in the got she wakes up. She doesn't want to feed but just to be cuddled.
Am desperate to go to sleep myself. DH won't help as he 'has work tomorrow'. Have suggested he sleeps with elder DD and I can bring DD2 in our bed as have a feeling I won't get any sleep otherwise. He's being a selfish tw*t though and refusing as, you've guessed it, he has work tomorrow.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 21-Mar-14 00:43:29

Aargh! Poor princess what a horrible night. You poor thing.
Thanks to you and to liveinthepresent for your kind words. Sorry and thanks for allowing me to rant.
Don't fret too muchq about the feeding. Your dd is still little yes?
As for your dh tonight angry aren't they annoying about the sleep? <hands *princess a shovel>
I decided yesterday afternoon that I was going to stop feeding to sleep. Sometimes bf and sometimes give a bottle at night, but make she she doesn't go to sleep and the read story, rock bla bla bla.
Then at 3 o clock she had a fever (mmr 10 days ago)
So of course it's bf and nurofen time. There's always something.
Hey HO.
I hope you're asleep now. My dh certainly is <off to find another shovel>

Liveinthepresent Fri 21-Mar-14 06:09:03

It's me again Up with DS for the first time since bedtime - 10 hours straight sleep <whispers> I guess that means he just STTN!!

I went to bed stupidly late and have been awake staring at the video monitor quite a bit so not sure I will feel as amazing as I could but that's beside the point I guess.

Too scared it will be a fluke again to be happy - he sounds snotty.

So sorry Princess and AC that you are dealing will ill babies - it's going to be spring soon hope that will reduce the bugs...

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 21-Mar-14 07:02:09

<waves Pom poms for liveinthepresent>
That's really amazing.
Whatever else, it mans he can do it. And you're likely to see more progress even if you do have some difficult nights along the way. Sorry you didn't gt a nice big fat sleep though.
brew for anyone? I'm suffering this morning. DD had trouble settling all night and ds decided to join us in the small hours but at least he just snuggled up and went to sleep.
DH slept right through but I expect he'll have a tale of woe about being awake a lot, or some such bollocks wink

PrincessPotsie Fri 21-Mar-14 13:31:02

grin grin grin forLivein and a bit if envy! Your DS has done it! Let's hope it's the start of many more for you.

DD cried for another hr last night finally dropping off at 1am after 3 hrs of crying on and off. She then slept soundly til 7am and without a feed so she can do it. She's still v snotty so fingers crossed for a more settled night for her tonight.

PrincessPotsie Fri 21-Mar-14 13:33:02

Oh and my DH slept through too but is still exhausted. He has no work tom tho so will be getting him roped in if DD is the same tonight.

NiMhurchu Fri 21-Mar-14 13:57:55

Hello all! I was reading through the thread (though not all of it) but I notice most of your LOs are a bit older than DS. He's 8months and I really want to stop feeding during the night! I think he's is waking for hunger but only because he won't feed 'properly' during the day so he's making up for it at night. I'm thinking if I reduce his feeds at night he'll take a decent feed in the day. Any opinions on this? Last night he woke 6 times between going to bed at 7 and me eventually getting up at 8.30.

I stopped feeding him to sleep about 6 weeks ago and for about 2 weeks he slept through the night with 1 wakening around 5 and would go back to sleep til 7ish. That was absolute bliss! Then he had a bad 2-3weeks sleeping where he cut his first 4 teeth in the space of 2weeks. After that he slept well again. THEN he got sick and a night in hospital has totally turned him, he will not sleep, night or day!

I tried making a rule that if he woke before 12am OH would go to him, but he just stayed awake crying until eventually 12oclock came and I fed him. We persisted for nearly 2weeks with absolutely no improvement. I think he thinks if he cries long enough I will come feed him, obviously he can't tell the time! Last night I was on my own and I was too tired to fight, fed him back to sleep straight away but he didn't sleep any longer.

I feel like I can't do these nights anymore. Is 8months too young to night wean? Has anything I've said sounded totally wrong and mean?
Help please!

Liveinthepresent Fri 21-Mar-14 18:47:10

Thanks for the ra-ra - I now have terrible PNT ( pre night tension ) I have realised the only previous occasions he has slept that long ( twice I think) he has then come down with a cold and reverted to hourly waking - so guess what today he is snotty, coughing again , and sneezing.. So although my hopes are sky high I am very afraid to get carried away.

welcome Nimhurchu you don't sound mean at all to me - my DS has just hit 9 months and I started this forever ages ago !
I will post more after bedtime.
Good luck all .

NiMhurchu Fri 21-Mar-14 23:22:49

I've been reading more and have got some new ideas from you ladies so thanks already! Water is first, I've been letting DS have a few sips at the end of a meal to wash his mouth out because I've been told I don't want him to fill up on water instead of milk, and that bf should give him all the fluids he needs. BUT he won't take a bottle since I last tried ages ago. Sippy cup at night? Another problem is he loves his sippy cup, I think he'd get too excited if I gave him his favourite toy excluding my iphone.

When trying the time reduction feeding if they want back on after the 5 mins are up what do you do? When I take him off early I just keep doing it until he stops looking back on but that could push the feed to prob 15mins.

I just remembered I fell asleep feeding him last night, sitting up. Eek good job he was sleeping and not wrestling, he would've been on the floor!

Oh and I'm feeding now at 11.20pm, so tonight's another right off! hmm

Liveinthepresent Sat 22-Mar-14 04:54:10

Am on second feed of the night sad.
He is poorly. I could literally weep with frustration that the poor thing is ill again.
Sleep been ok taking that into account but who knows what will happen if he gets worse. I live in dread of the hourly wake up resurfacing .

Hope everyone else ok.

NiMhurchu where does the time reduction idea come from ? I think I need to try this if DS is ever not ill.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 22-Mar-14 08:24:18

Too blurry, so apologies but I can't respond well to all. I am thinking of you all.
Another rubbish night. Dd just very unsettled and feverish. Co sleeping and bf is the only way I can cope ATM.
When I have a lucid moment I know that I need to help her by getting her to fall asleep without a feed. I'm not sure how to do it though. I get them both in the bath and then feed her while I read them both a story.
I could feed her after the bath and try to keep her awake. Then rock her while I read the story? How do I stop her falling asleep for the feed?
Do. Need to give up bf?

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 22-Mar-14 08:26:48

Hi NiMhurchu good luck.

Liveinthepresent Sat 22-Mar-14 09:56:59

therealAC I amso sorry you are having such a horrid time.
Clearly I don't have it cracked but I do feel like I am now making progress - getting more and more 4+ hour stretches apart from when really poorly ..
As you know I had phone consultation with sleep lady - and have been taking tiny steps forward since ..
So I am happy to post some of the things I have found worked if you like ? I have gone very very slowly so no crying at all from DS - I haven't attempted to tackle night wakings at all yet but am hoping he will reduce them enough that I can be alert enough to try something soon
He has slept thru 11 pm feed several times now so this may prove possible.

PrincessPotsie Sat 22-Mar-14 16:02:16

AC I really wouldn't worry about the feeding to sleep at bedtime as I'm sure that's what most people do. And I really wouldn't give up breastfeeding as I think you'll regret it. I'm trying to keep in my head what I did when bottle feeding and firing the night I definitely wouldn't give a bottle at every wake up. It's just having the strength and perseverance to go that in the night though.

DH and I are out tonight wer hoo do hopefully DD is a gd girl for my sis in law. Here's wishing you all good nights.

PrincessPotsie Sat 22-Mar-14 16:34:06

Lots of typos sorry. Meant to say welcome Ni....can't believe you didn't read the whole thread!!

Liveinthepresent Sat 22-Mar-14 18:43:19

Have a good night princess I know what you mean about the feeding to sleep as am sure I never worried about it with DD.. So hard to know but I currently have to say I do think that's helped us. Mind you who knows I may be up every hour tonight and even if I am not DS sleeping better could well be entirely down to him and not me.
Anyway AC if you do decide you want to start moving towards not feeding to sleep I can try to remember and post how we started.

Good nights all

Liveinthepresent Sat 22-Mar-14 18:44:43

Ps AC definitely dont give up BF - it is not the cause.

NiMhurchu Sat 22-Mar-14 21:17:48

Ok did a big post earlier but I lost it angry

Liveinthepresent I read it earlier in the thread. I suppose it's equivalent of giving less oz's in a bottle each time. You set a time limit on feeds and decrease it slowly over a few weeks. Like do 5 mins for a week and then 4min feeds for a week. I think the idea is that once you've been doing a while baby will just not bother to wake up properly for a 1min feed. But thinking more about it I don't think it's for us, I've previously had oversupply from DS taking short feeds.

I'm gona try the water tonight, it's setting ready for the next wake up. I think he's teething again.argh

therealAC I stopped feeding to sleep and it hasn't helped the night wake ups. But it definitely helped me, it was taking 3-4hours to get him down asleep. When he started going to sleep himself he decided he sleeps on his belly! When I first stopped it he seemed to drop the 11pm fed. He'd learnt to self settle so just went back to sleep. But that all went out the window when he was teething. I let him feed for comfort when he was teething so it's my own fault. I still don't know of an alternative! So it must be true they regress when poorly.

PrincessPotsie a night out?? What's that? wink enjoy!

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 22-Mar-14 21:41:06

liveinthepresent poor ds. It's so awful when they're poorly. I feel sad for dd when she's not well, and then I feel frustrated because I know it means I'll have a shit week night, then I feel guilty because I feel frustrated grin.

princess have a lovely evening. I hope you enjoy it, and that you manage some sleep when you get home.

Thanks NiM. I think they do regress. I guess we have to expect some night wakings.

Well thank you to you all for your advice and encouraging words. I don't want to give up bf. so I will continue. Dd seems very unsettled. I'm hoping this is the last day of her feeling rough <touch wood>. Tonight she barely fed (surely a bad sign for later) and dh had to take her off and cuddle h to sleep. She cried when I trie to feed her, cried when I held her, cried when he held her....
Anyway. Everyone (apart form me) is asleep now.
Dh is snoring, so I just have to find my extra heavy shovel before trying to get some sleep.

I have been trying to help dd take a snuggly. But she's not having any of it.

Wishing you all a good night.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 22-Mar-14 23:01:49

Omg. So I finally dozed off (not easy with dh snoring) and then ds came in to tell me he needed a wee grin. Dealt with that. Ds asleep in his bed now, good boy. (he's so cute)
But I have had to retreat to the futon in dd's room because dh is snoring so ridiculously loudly. It's like a fucking conspiracy.
I know that when I finally drop off dd will wake up.
I am going to lose my mind aren't I.

Liveinthepresent Sat 22-Mar-14 23:17:04

AC am just on phone so can't type sense - but that sounds like where we were a few months ago. In the end DH had to deal with all DD wake ups and sleep on sofa so that I didnt feel surrounded by other people snoring / coughing / shuffling eg when I just needed a nap!
All I can say at the moment is I found that I put off changes for fear of making things worse or at best no better but in the end I feel like having a plan is helping my sanity. I gave had wine and this may not help but anyway I hope you can keep the shovel at bay.
Fingers crossed you get some rest.

NiMhurchu Sat 22-Mar-14 23:20:45

therealAC I was going to suggest an elbow in the ribs, but in my case it's a knuckle. We don't sleep close enough for me to elbow him! Pregnancy pillow still getting good use grin

Good luck tonight!

NiMhurchu Sun 23-Mar-14 00:03:40

Holy shit... The baby woke, took neurofen, took 2oz of water FROM A BOTTLE and went back to sleep with a bit of bouncing, patting and shhsing! All in 20mins!

A small victory but there are many hours of this night left!

He hasn't taken a bottle in months shock

NiMhurchu Sun 23-Mar-14 02:49:01

He did it again! An oz of water and he was happy to drift off to sleep on my knee with minimal bouncing/jiggling. Other than trying to put his head down my buttoned up pj top he didn't seem fussed about feeding.

And I'm too excited about his cooperation with the bottle to sleep! I might be able to go somewhere sometime!wine

He's currently sleeping with his bum up in the air, too cute!

gringringrin

Please don't be beginners luck

ArtemisTheHunter Sun 23-Mar-14 04:07:56

You ladies have dropped off my threads list which is now down to zero. Good job I'm up at 3.30am then hmm

NiM good work! Guess it shows the long shot is always worth a try. Hope it continues.

Live glad to hear of progress despite illness. My DD has another cold too, hasn't been properly well since xmas. I feel sorry for her but mostly anxious about the impact on sleep.

AC hang in there. I've considered giving up BF too, I just end up resenting it and I want my body back. Physically it is hard. She has been on me so much tonight my boobs have practically disappeared. But I don't think DD would let me stop anyway and I doubt it would magically fix her sleep.

We have started working with the same sleep consultant Live used after I decided I can't continue like this. DD has been on my boob on and off for 2 hours. She isn't feeding properly, she isn't falling asleep either, but she screams if I try to rock her or (heaven forbid) to put her down. I sent DP to the spare room after an argument. I had asked him to help and when he made a massive drama out of it I said something about me doing this all the time. He shouted at me to shut up. I'm not having that. I might have said a bit too much after that but I'm sick of every tiny thing he does becoming a major inconvenience or requiring some kind of award. I used to be shocked so many relationships foundered after having children. Now I'm amazed so many survive.

Sorry that was a bit of an off topic rant. The sleep work is going to be gentle and therefore slow. We are not even addressing sleep behaviours probably for another couple of weeks, just focusing on foundations, context, sleep environment etc. But it feels positive to have at least made the decision to call in help.

Liveinthepresent Sun 23-Mar-14 05:05:48

Wow NiM that's amazing - well done!

I am up feeding DS after an 8.5 hour block of sleep grin despite his cough and cold.

Artemis am really pleased to hear your update! Good news you are feeling positive. Sorry about another unhelpful DP. Lots of those on this thread !

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Mar-14 06:01:46

Pom Pom fanfare for NiM and *

^Artemis* good to see you. So pleased to hear about the SC. sorry about DP. They can be such knobheads.

Dh is still asleep in our bed. I am on the futon with dd, currently asleep after a few wake-ups(bf back to sleep) and ds who found me and snuggled up around 1am. The dcs look like little cherubs. I would love to cuddle up but I'm terrified of waking them.

No chance of a lie in today. I want to run into dh and yell "wake up you fu** c***" at him. Truly. So bastard tired and no chance of rest. Ever.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 23-Mar-14 06:02:43

Sorry livein Pom poms were for you too.Youve both done inspirationally well.

PrincessPotsie Sun 23-Mar-14 08:45:01

Morning all. Had a great night out and it was so nice to be out together despite DH often being a aforementioned knobhead at times! All 3 DC were good and stayed asleep while we were out which was a relief. DD woke at 3 and was awake for an hour feeding and snuffling as she's still full of cold. They all then had an unheard of coordinated lie in til 8!

Well done for progress last night Nim and it sounds like your sleep will improve now Artemis. AC you made me laugh out loud about the fucking conspiracy theory!

Hope you all enjoy your Sunday and we all manage to have a bit of a day of rest. At least it's Mothers Day next week and we can act like our DHs.....lie-in, lounge around on the sofa, afternoon nap and roast made for us.....here's hoping.....

PrincessPotsie Mon 24-Mar-14 19:05:54

I'm presuming no news is good news and you've all been too busy having lots of sleep to post!

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 25-Mar-14 05:36:16

grin I was wondering about everyone sleeping. I hope so.
Glad you had a good evening out princess

I would say we're sort of back to square one. DD waking a couple or three times and having a bf back to sleep. She was very hard to settle on Sunday night. Not too bad last night. I would estimate that she "needs" one of hose feeds, as she feeds quite hungrily (at about 5am)
I'm a bit a loss really tbh. It feels like she knows I want to stop night feeds and the last couple of awful weeks have been her resistance. Like she's saying " there, I told you not to try taking my night time feeds away, if you just keep the milk,coming I'll let you have a bit of sleep in between feeds, but if you try to stop feeding at night again just remember how bad it can be" of course, that's an unhinged way of thinking hmm but I'm scared to rock the boat now.
I'm also wondering if she just needs to feed and maybe I should just put up with it. I can't actually remember what I want IYSWIM.
Oh, I do hope you're all getting more sleep than I am.

PrincessPotsie Wed 26-Mar-14 06:29:36

SHE'S DONE IT!!!!

For the first time in 10 long months DD has slept through from 7pm and is still asleep now! It was v surreal when I opened my eyes at 6 and realised it was light and I hadn't been up all night. As with any change I'm not sure if any of the stuff I've been doing has made any impact, especially as nothing different happened yesterday. I really hope this is a sign of things to come.

Hi AC and hope you had a better night last night you poor thing. It's so hard trying to focus on what to do when you're so tired. If only we knew what our babies were thinking and could explain to them what we want and make them understand.

Hope you all have a good day.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 26-Mar-14 06:40:02

princess that's fantastic. I'm so pleased.
Definitely worthy of a Pom Pom fanfare!

Liveinthepresent Wed 26-Mar-14 07:04:00

Woo hoo Princess am so pleased for you! This is turning into quite a success filled thread - apart from our poor OP !
TheRealAC I am sorry you are feeling 'stuck' - I know what you mean - i keep ending up with two wake ups and feeling like maybe this is good enough. DS reverted to two wake ups Sunday and Monday which was a bit depressing after previous success... I don't want to dispense unwanted advice while you are trying to work out what you want to achieve but it really sounds like you need to hatch a plan to stock up on some rest before you can improve things - it's too hard when so ground down by fatigue.

Last night I was exhausted for some reason - fell asleep at 10 - he woke me at midnight - and then according to my 'app' slept through until just now - bizarrely I am convinced there was another wake up that I just didn't record. Not like me to miss it though so maybe I really have had 6.5 hours sleep ? ?

Anyway we are just keeping going with our baby steps approach - not tackling night wake ups until Dh can put him down successfully at bed time so I know it's not all down to me in the dead of night. That's the theory anyway!

PrincessPotsie Wed 26-Mar-14 07:38:54

Erm we may have to put the Pom poms away. Went into DD at 7 and at some point in the night she'd been sick in her cot and she still looks peaky now. If sickness was her reason for sleeping through I think I'd rather she woke. Will see what today holds.....

Liveinthepresent Wed 26-Mar-14 09:50:17

Oh princess I am so sorry to hear that. hope your DD is ok - that's what we all dread when they randomly sleep well.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 26-Mar-14 10:34:01

Sorry princess. I hope baby princess is ok.

NiMhurchu Wed 26-Mar-14 20:53:08

Princess hope your DD is feeling better, a good sleep will help her recover so maybe she needed it

Livein glad you are having some success, and that your DH is sharing the work when he can. If only they had boobs!

AC sorry you're feeling lost. I hope you can plan a 'next step' and not give up

Just to update, last night was night 3 of water only before 3am. (I had originally said midnight but he didn't waken so it's 3am rule now). The first two nights he woke at 9pm, 11pm, 3am feed, 6am feed, up at 8am and a nap at 9am-10/11.
Tough but I kinda got to lie-in til 11am.

Last night he woke at 1am for half an hour, and then again at 6am!
Also checked my app to make sure. I don't usually forget to start the feed on app but sometimes forget to end it.

Of course I didn't get any extra sleep cause I was still up at 1am doing Uni work sad

PrincessPotsie Thu 27-Mar-14 04:46:53

Well done Ni. It sounds like you and your LO are making really good progress.

DD was sick another couple of times yesterday and she's just woken and has been sick in her cot again. Even had to wake DH to hold DD while I changed the cot. He's now saying he's not going in to work til later in the morning as he can't possibly get up after he's been 'up in the night'!

DD's been her usual self apart from being sick so it wasn't too rough a day and I'm pleased she's only just woken as her wake ups have got later and I'm hoping once she's better she'll be able to get to at least 6 without a feed.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Mar-14 06:14:19

Well done Ni you're making steady progress. You must be tired though, with the studying, that can't be easy.

princess oh poor baby princess. Fingers crossed for a speedy recovery and no regression.
Is your DH ok? Did he manage to get into work after getting "up in the night"? hmm

I am a total failure grin. I have resorted to offering feeds to everyone at every opportunity just to be allowed to lie down grin
Maybe I'll try tonight. Just offering water. My resolve is dented. I am questioning the value of my very existence stopping the night feeds.
Will it help with night wakings?
Grrr.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Mar-14 08:02:36

Dd has a runny nose and a slight fever. sad

Liveinthepresent Thu 27-Mar-14 10:52:21

Sorry about the ill babies again. princess hope your DD bounces back quickly and theRealAC hope it doesn't come to much.

Am tiptoeing in to update DS did 8-6 last night - 10 hours without a whimper. I have had 7 hours sleep and feel amazing (sorry to those suffering ) grin

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Mar-14 14:30:36

Wow!

ArtemisTheHunter Thu 27-Mar-14 19:05:39

Liveinthepresent that's terrific grin. Have you been sticking to your plan then? I'm really glad you've had some success. It makes me feel improvement might be possible. I can't remember when I last had 7 hours' sleep! Probably not since about September 2012 shock

Ni good work on the 3am rule! Did your LO object to not getting fed on waking? For the last week I haven't even tried an alternative to the boob for night wakings, I'm so knackered I have just been taking the fastest route to get her and therefore myself back to sleep.

Princess and RealAC I hope little ones' illness doesn't come to anything. It's amazing how much illness buggers up sleep. When I'm ill I just want to sleep all the time but it doesn't seem to work that way for babies. DD has had a cough for months now and it really disturbs her.

I'm a bit down at the moment. The sleep consultant hasn't got us working on night time sleep yet, just fundamentals, but I feel I'm struggling even with basics - being consistent with night time routines particularly between me and DP should be simple but it's not. Feed to sleep at the beginning of the night is no longer working - in the longer term that's probably progress but I have nothing to replace it with apart from calling DP away from whatever riveting shite he's watching on Dave and asking him to rock her to sleep. While he's been telling me to stop feeding to sleep for ages it transpires he doesn't want to have the responsibility instead. Last night when DP was out she cried for 30 minutes after her feed before conking out. I am still BF to sleep during the night though, 3 times last night then up for the day at 5.30am <whimpers>. I've written 3000 words of a report today though I have no idea whether any of them join together to make sense.

Fingers crossed for good nights everyone.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 27-Mar-14 19:35:10

Artemis brew thanks cake brew
5:30 start is shit. It's often that here and it sucks the bastard life out of me. Sorry things aren't going as fast as you'd like. But I'm inspired by the fact that you're making changes. I need to do that.
Henceforth (oh, yes I can hear myself) I am gong to be a bit tougher. I expect to fail a bit, but the night feeds have to go.
I think I need to just try to not feed at night. When dd wakes I will cuddle, rock and give her water. I am considering starting tonight but I am very tired so I'm not all that confident. The trouble is that I just resort to bf because it's the only way I get to sleep myself.
I'm actually wondering whether I should just give up trying. Just feed her until she doesn't want it any more.
Ugh! Too tired. My nerves are shredded.

Good nights all.

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 28-Mar-14 03:18:23

AC it's so hard to keep your resolve when you're so exhausted. I've been BFing on and off for the past hour, DD has fallen asleep numerous times but the second I put her down she wakes back up and cries. BF is clearly not working but neither does anything else. I can't just leave her to scream the house down.

I am talking to the SC again tomorrow and hoping she will move us on. I am expecting things to get worse before they improve but we are really stuck at the moment, I understand the purpose of the small changes we're making but I really need to feel we're moving forward. OH has decamped to the spare room. 3am with a non sleeping baby is a very lonely time.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Mar-14 05:38:13

Atremis brew. I feel your pain. DD was up twice for a bf but then awake since 4:50. It's soul destroying.
She has a cold, so I can't see the point of making any changes right now because she'll be awake and need seeing to anyway IYSWIM. Or am I just making excuses? One of the great things about bf is that it does soothe her when she's a bit poorly or grumpy, so it seems foolish to take that away now.
I'm sorry things are so hard ATM. The tiredness, the having to get up, is overwhelming isn't it? It makes me feel exhausted and powerless and hopeless.
But things will change. It's a small time on their life overall. DS still gets up some night's, but he gets into our bed and snuggles down right back to sleep. It's lovely. We often have to go back upstairs to get him out of bed now after 7:30. That seemed impossible when he was dd's age.
I can't remember how old your dd is. Will look back.
Hope you're sleeping.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Mar-14 05:55:01

Ah ok. She's still tiny. But you're struggling with the feed to sleep thing.
I reckon (waffle alert) that it's almost I,possible to not bf to sleep. Because when they're tiny it's important to let them finish the feed, not to take them off the breast, or they miss out on an essential part of the feed.
So it's natural for them to go to sleep like that.

I've always had a solid routine for DCs bedtimes. No tv, winding down, bath, story etc. And regular naps (well, when they'll have them). but they both have been waker-uppers at night.
I didn't try to get them out of the feed to sleep thing. I probably should have done that around six months or so.
They've neither of them taken to a snuggly toy or blanket. I tried from birth.
When I stopped night feeds with ds I just stopped. Rocked and cuddled him through his protests, but at about 15 mo I just stopped. I couldn't make the PPO work (maybe I was too impatient)
So the only things that have worked for me are stopping night feeds cold turkey (but not CIO IYSWIM) and the passage of time.
but your dd is took young to abolish night feeds altogether, so working with the sc should help with addressing the feed to sleep thing IYSWIM.

Liveinthepresent Fri 28-Mar-14 06:40:27

How are the poorly babies?
I think I have one too now - DS slept 8-6 again but when I went into get him he has also been sick all over the cot and himself.
Am torn between feeling awful he didn't wake and call for me to thinking maybe he is going to be so good at sleeping he won't need me much in the night ..
He has had a massive feed and I will see if it stays down - seems happy enough.
Obviously now I have the fear that the amazing sleep was illness related.

Interesting therealAC that cold turkey in the night has worked for you before I just don't have the stamina and I think that's why for me the stopping BF ing to sleep at bedtime was just the easier battle!

Artemis hang in there am sure Ann will get you there - I know it's hard - I found implementing some of her ideas impossible but DH and I agreed that as long as we were doing 'something' it felt better than nothing. We have gone so slowly - and at times felt like we were getting nowhere - but gradually I managed to stop BF at bedtime and get him napping in the cot. I thought these were impossible dreams at the start! It has taken 8-10 weeks to get to a better place ( by which I mean a couple of wake ups) but I think Ann would have pushed me a little quicker had we used a support package.

Ps yes 5.30 starts suck - both DD and DS up before 6 this morning. brew

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Mar-14 07:31:29

Right. I am convinced.
I will stop feeding to sleep at night. That's the issue isn't it? Maybe dh needs to put her to bed.
liveinthepresent sorry about poorly DS. DD definitely has a cold.
I'm not sure how the logistics work. Do I just wake her up if she's fallen asleep? Or do I stop the feed before she falls asleep?
I can barely sit up. sad and I've promised to take them both swimming this morning. envy (that's nausea, not envy) grin

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Mar-14 10:15:30

DD slept through again last night and wasn't sick like the last two nights but I still don't think she's feeling great as she's cried a lot more than normal this morning.

I woke at 5 with stomach ache and it appears that DD has shared her bug with me. Luckily DH had a quiet day at work so he's taken the day off to look after DD and do the school and pre school run for the other two so relieved as didn't fancy keeping my legs crossed on the way. I feel dreadful.

Sorry that lots of the babies are poorly and hope they'll all be on the mend soon.

AC I agree with you and think there's no point trying to change anything while your LO is ill. I do hope younger a bit more sleep soon though.

Artemis I really feel for you and hope things start to get better for you soon.

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Mar-14 13:05:25

DH just asked if it's ok to bfeed when ill. I presume so? Had a quick search but can't find anything specifically....

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Mar-14 13:15:45

Yes it's ok.
Hope you are better soon. Drink lots.

Liveinthepresent Fri 28-Mar-14 14:48:17

Princess that's just what you didn't need - get well soon.
Get as much rest as you can.

If you are well enough to type - what did you feed your DD when ill? I know the advice is to feed as normal these days but it seems so against how I was brought up . dS has been sick again but ate toast, sweet potato and banana for lunch. Does that sound about right or should I keep to BF ?

TheRealAC I will try to remember how we started on the putting down awake mission but I don't know if you will have the patience for my rather wimpish baby steps approach!
I didn't used to wake DS if he properly fell asleep as that was then a nightmare to get him to sleep - but I did gradually start to try to stop feeding before being fast asleep and used story/ music / comforter / same words to try to build new associations.
Now I feed him in a bright room with everyone crashing around before I start the rest of the bed time routine.
This has taken about 8 weeks though so you may find the strategy of getting DH to do it ( and going out for the evening grin yields quicker results.

And I am still not sure why he is suddenly sleeping so well - my efforts, illness, or just because he is good and ready all by himself!

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Mar-14 15:30:47

Hi LiveIn. That sounds great for your DS. I have DD porridge, banana, toast and plain pasta. I kept to anything plain that I thought she'd eat. I kept up with bfeeds as normal, though she did throw some of these up, and gave her small portions of plain food listed above. Hope your DS is feeling better soon.

Liveinthepresent Fri 28-Mar-14 18:22:46

Thanks Princess'he had a bit of pasta for tea and so far it's stayed down - so fingers crossed for the night ahead. Hope you feel better.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 28-Mar-14 19:03:38

Thanks liveinthepresent I really appreciate the advice. I need to take baby steps as I don't like the stress to dcs frm a huge change. Even though I say stopped feeding in a cold turkey fashion it was more gradual than it sounds, we were down to one feed a night and he was over a year. grin
I hope ds is feeling better and the sleep continues to improve. Brilliant progress. I would feed him as you are. "gently" IYSWIM.

Princess so sorry you're not well. I hope you feel better very soon.

Dd denitely has a cold and is teething and has eaten almost nothing.
I have just let her bf to sleep blush

PrincessPotsie Fri 28-Mar-14 20:58:38

Thank goodness I'm feeling much better though I'm still a bit achy but did manage to eat earlier. Being ill with kids to look after is horrific isn't it? Luckily DH has been brill and he's even been and done a big shop tonight.

I'm tucked up in bed and about to go to sleep but I am really nervous about DD's sleep and wether she can make it through the night again? Interestingly she has stopped feeding to sleep at bedtime the last few nights. I've not done anything differently so not sure why. Wonder if this is linked to the magic sleep through?

Wishing you all good nights and sleepy babies.

PrincessPotsie Sat 29-Mar-14 03:59:25

Up and feeding.....but not to sleep again. Just giving her a cuddle and she's looking sleepy so will hopefully get back to bed soon. Maybe DD's couple of sleep throughs were because she was ill after all.

Liveinthepresent Sat 29-Mar-14 07:22:46

Morning all - DS woke once in the night too Princess he was really upset Cried so loud DH actually thought it was DD and shot out of bed before me. I fed him as was thinking he might be thirsty / sore tummy from the bug.
Feeling weary now mainly because DD thinks its necessary to shout for us the second she opens her eyes - 6.30 today. Woke all of us including DS. Need brew

Hope everyone else ok.

NiMhurchu Sat 29-Mar-14 10:37:34

Terrible night here. DS woke up every hour after being put to bed. I was able to rock him to sleep each time after a bit of water. I'm not sure he needs/wants the water but when he wakes up crying and I get the bottle over he stops crying and opens his mouth. Which is a good thing cause we're doing BLW and I wouldn't been shoving it in otherwise! When he's settled down I then rock him. I say rock but it's actually bounce. I sit on the edge of the bed and bounce up and down. When I stopped feeding him to sleep I introduced patting his back as comfort. And we have a phrase to let him know that he should be sleeping. So I've been bouncing, patting and muttering shh it's sleepy time all bloody night. He woke at 3.30 and I fed him but he's not really fussed about feeding before that. Doesn't root into my chest or anything.

He woke again at 5.30 but OH (actually!) went to him first, I didn't even bother to say to him it doesn't matter I'll just feed him. DS went back to sleep til 9ish! I sort of got 4 hours sleep!yay!

DS used to have those god awful early wakenings, I used to take him back to bed and fed but he soon stopped feeding lying down and would only kick me when I tried. I then started to get us up and dressed etc, it was the only time I went to any groups but I was wrecked by 10am and like a zombie the rest of the day. Once I learnt he could be bounced to sleep I started that in the morning and got myself another couple of hours in bed.

I was celebrating yesterday as DS slept for 2 hours in his cot at nap time but it seems to have messed us up last night. I hope it's not the end of our good nights.

AC that's what happened us about feeding to sleep at bedtime, he would fight and wriggle and feed and play but just wouldn't close his bloody eyes and sleep! For a while I was putting him down awake and waiting for him to cry and then go and feed him to sleep. I did pick up put down after that and after a week he was going to bed awake and just going to sleep. But he's not doing that anymore but I've forgotten all the rules so I'm just bouncing to sleep now so it hasn't really been that successful.

Sorry for muttering on, I just feel like complaining today.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 29-Mar-14 20:55:26

Sorry niM complain away.

So tired. Thinking of you all.
Dd fed at bedtime but stopped before she went to sleep. I've been trying to use additional sleep associations like rocking, singing and stroking her head.
She had two naps today and a fair bit of activity. Ate very little though.
So we shall see. I must at least try to cuddle rather than feed when she wakes.

princess I'm pleased you're starting to feel better.
livein sorry you had a r ough night. Interestingly hmm my ds got me up at midnight because he needed a wee. Just one more wake up and it feels awful doesn't it.

Hey HO. Good nights.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 30-Mar-14 12:01:01

So? DD slept until 2am, then had a feed. I tried to just rock her to sleep but I think she was hungry/ thirsty so I did feed her. After that I think she woke again at 2 ish and 4 or 5 ish (old time IYSWIM) each time I fed her back to sleep but it's not always effective.
It's hard to say what's going on because she definitely has a cold so it coughing and snuffling. Maybe not so much needing to feed to sleep as needing to feed for comfort IYSWIM.
Happy mothers day.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 30-Mar-14 21:12:16

So tonight DD wouldn't bf to sleep, was really squirmy. Then she settled a bit and wanted to feed, so, in the end, she did bf to sleep. I'm a bit worried because I had a couple of glasses of wine this afternoon with the plan being to give her a bottle for her afternoon milk. But she became inconsolable and had two massive boozy feeds blush
I'm trying to add other cues to her falling asleep like singing and stroking her head and "shh, sleepy time" in the hope that this will be useful for the future. hmm

I expect she will wake a lot. She's full of cold.
But she gave me a bunch of daffodils today so all is perfect in the world.

DH is already asleep while I am cleaning up and folding laundry. So I must dash as I need to build his coffin and find my shovel wink

Liveinthepresent Sun 30-Mar-14 21:56:50

I am here but with dS bug now. Will update when I feel better.sad

PrincessPotsie Sun 30-Mar-14 22:59:22

Hi all and happy Mother's Day! I hope you've all had a nice day and managed to avoid as many jobs as possible?!

Livein really sorry you're feeling ill, esp on Mother's Day. I hope you manage to get some decent rest and feel better really soon. Can your DH look after DS tomorrow? Take it as easy as you can and I hope you get some proper sleep tonight.

AC I really wouldn't worry about the wine. I think that you'd have to be really drunk for the alcohol to get into your milk. I've fed DD when I've had a few drinks in the past and she's always been fine and behaved in exactly the same way as always. Hope you had a good afternoon.

DD slept through again last night but I feel bad telling you really as I know some of you are having horrendous nights. I'm sure I must be due one soon however for the moment in enjoying having a bit more sleep.

Hope everyone has a good night.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 31-Mar-14 05:49:38

liveinthepresent so sorry to hear you're poorly. I hope you feel better very soon and manage to get some rest

Thanks princess. That's fabulous news. I'm really pleased for you, well done.

DD woke for a feed at 2am. She's slept since then but I can hear her poor tiny cough so I suspect she'll be awake soon, poor little mite.

PrincessPotsie Wed 02-Apr-14 03:10:53

Hi everyone and how are all the DC sleeping? How are you doing livein? Hope you're feeling better now.

We seem to be back to one wake up in the night for a feed now. I have been feeding DD when she's woken as she's not been having a proper feed at bed time as she's been so tired after only having 40 mins sleep in the day for the last two days.

Things could be a lot worse but it's funny how you always want more! The clock change has meant the DC are still fast asleep in the mornings despite me getting them to bed at the usual time the night before. No doubt their body clocks will be fully reset by the weekend and they'll be wide awake early rather than lying in when they can. Soooo frustrating!

Liveinthepresent Wed 02-Apr-14 07:34:34

Hi Princess sorry to hear that.
I feel fine and thankfully got off lightly.
DS is still not quite right - how long did your DD take to recover?
I think he is on the mend though.
His naps were all over the place yesterday - and I am also back to night wakings - two last night.
Feel really low this morning - have meetings at work I haven't prepared for as was at home with DS and now feel convinced the amazing nights were illness related. sad

Now that I have tasted 'normality' I can't face the world of tiredness again - sorry to be insensitive to those who have it much much worse !

TheRealAC how is it for you ? Dare I ask about the coffin and shovel ? !

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 03-Apr-14 02:28:06

Yay, well done you two.
Dd awakening now. Shame as I've just fed her.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 04-Apr-14 07:19:03

I give up.
Two feeds in the night. She's definitely hungry. Eating very little in the day due to cold/ teething. I'm just going to wait until she's eating more. Trying to increase daytime foods.
Good luck everyone.

PrincessPotsie Fri 04-Apr-14 19:22:48

It's so up and down AC. We're on one wake up (and usually a feed) per night at the mo, and usually DD's waking at around 5am so I can just about handle it. After a taste of sleep thrus though I now have had the taste of 'normality' so want more!

Hope your DS is fully better now Livein. It took DD much longer to get over it than me. I was ill for one day and DD was off for 3-4.

Hope you all have good nights and get some uninterrupted sleep. wine

Liveinthepresent Sun 06-Apr-14 00:41:58

Not been back for ages posting now because DS has been awake twice already really unhappy and DH and I have just had the most ridiculous argument of our entire marriage. Can't stop crying.
Feel really desperate now as I thought we were making progress but I don't know what's wrong with DS and dH thinks I am blaming him somehow ... Aargh !
How is everyone else ? grin

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 06-Apr-14 03:19:53

Sorry liveinthepresent
The unhelpful DHs can just do one tbh.
There are so many ppl whose babies don't sleep through until 2 or 3 or whenever and I think they don't believe it tbh.
No one is to blame. The sleep deprivation is crippling. I could have divorced buried my DH several times over. He would say that the arguing is my fault. He is wrong.
It will pass though. Remember that. And you love him and he loves you.
And you are right and he is an arse grin. I'm trying to retain some sense of humour hmm

How is everyone else?
Well, as you asked. grin Last night was rubbish. Woken three times. Bit of bf.
To night, well, both dd and dh are vomiting almost constantly. I've run out of bed linen and had zero sleep. Poor DD. dreading DS being struck and a bit scared for me too if I'm honest.
Oh, and we have DN staying so she'll probably get it too, poor thing.
Not happy.

Can I just say: 48 hour rule. There for a reason.
That is all.

Liveinthepresent Sun 06-Apr-14 22:56:18

AC thank you so much for support and humour - especially when you are actually having a much much more awful time. Really hope the lurgy has spend no further it's awful when you know you are supposed to be busy feeling sorry for everyone else but self preservation keeps reminding you it could be your turn next!
dH apologised this morning and we are ok just accepting we are both finding the backward step really hard.
I know it could worse but gong backwards is torture.
I know I am part of the problem as I just want to get back to sleep ASAP.

Anyway less self indulgent rambling - hope everyone else ok.

Liveinthepresent Thu 10-Apr-14 19:57:11

Hi all how's it going?
Everything has calmed down here after a few bad nights - so we are now back to hopefully one wake up -'usually about 2. I hope this will remain settled as actually it's quite bearable especially as it reduces the early wake ups I was getting when he slept right through.p
Fingers crossed I haven't jinxed anything by posting!

Hope everyone else is getting some decent sleep.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 11-Apr-14 08:07:53

Hi. So pleased things have calmed down liveinthepresent
Here it's been shocking tbh.
Someone thoughtfully brought their "recovering from a tummy bug" family to a playdate and both dd and dh, plus a visiting child have been struck down. More laundry than I have ever seen in my life! A week of strict infection control methods to try to prevent it spreading further (fingers crossed as DS is ok ATM) and cancelling all the fun things we had planned for DH's niece. It's been a thoroughly unpleasant week. DD is still not quite right. But she is sleeping ok ish, wakes twice for a feed. I'm pleased that her appetite seems to be picking up because I think that she just needs to eat much better in the day before there's any significant change to the night.

PrincessPotsie Fri 11-Apr-14 21:03:37

Hi everyone! I lost you all again for a while as I haven't posted a d have missed you! How is everyone getting along? Really sorry about the bug AC and hope everyone's recovering now and you didn't catch it.

DD has slept through once since my last post but she was really sick that day and had an extra nap and a late night. She's waking once a night but usually at around 5am and I am feeding her mainly so she'll go back to sleep and then I can too. It's bearable at the moment but I'm sure 'I'll toughen up at some point and try to stop that feed too.

Hope you're all having a nice Friday night and enjoying the hols if your LOs are off school. I'm supposed to be doing The Couch to 5k runs but couldn't be bothered tonight so we've all been out for pizza and I've had a couple of glasses of wine! Much more satisfying than running!

DD has started with a cough today so I'm hoping we're not in for a bad night. Hope we all get lots of sleep.

ArtemisTheHunter Fri 11-Apr-14 21:26:42

Hi all

Just checking in. I haven't been around much lately, a combination of sleep deprivation and going back to work means I'm still working out which way is up at the moment. Anyway.

RealAC that tummy bug scenario sounds horrendous. I can't believe the family who passed the bug on, surely people should have more consideration. Hope your DD is properly better soon and your DS remains uninfected! I guess sleep has not been the main thing on your mind at the moment, hopefully your DD will get her daytime appetite back and you might get back to one nightly feed.

Liveinthepresent glad things have evened out for you. Are you still working to your plan that you and DH agreed? It's awful when things have been improving then you get a setback. We are going through similar at the moment. I've also had some ludicrous arguments with DP, generally down to resentment fuelled by exhaustion. It's amazing how easy it is to end up competing with each other for sleep and resenting small things that ordinarily I wouldn't even notice.

We're 3 weeks in with the sleep consultant, so roughly half way. We have had some progress but it's not always easy to see when we are still in the thick of change. One thing we have managed to do is break the feed to sleep association, particularly at the beginning of the night. That wasn't actually as painful as I imagined it would be; I am now not feeding to sleep at all, but it has made bugger all difference to night waking. I was disappointed to discover that as I really thought feed to sleep was our main problem and that once we'd solved that, everything else would drop into place. Not so!

We had a period of relative stability for a week or so, where DD was waking twice for feeds at about 11 and 3 and going straight back to sleep - not ideal but a long way from the two-hour-long night wakings we were grappling with before. However we have now moved on to trying to get her to self-settle in the cot and that is proving a lot harder. It feels traumatic at times. She has done a lot of crying and no matter what I'm told about it being frustration/emotional release and it's not CC because we're there with her I still feel awful seeing her upset. It also seems to have prompted increased night waking - for the last three nights she's woken every 90 minutes. I feed her each time and she mostly goes straight back to sleep (being careful to end the feed before she's actually asleep) but I'm now worried I'm going to recreate that expectation again. I am constantly questioning whether we're doing the right thing or whether we should just have stuck it out. If I go back to the sleep diaries I did three weeks ago i can see it has to be the right course, none of us were getting any sleep and I was reaching the point of desperation. I know it should improve from here, but there are no guarantees and right now it feels very hard.

Sorry that was a bit of a splurge! Might be of interest though - if only to say the sleep consultants are not a panacea. Ours is lovely but it's still damn hard work and she can't be there to deal with it for you when you have a screaming baby for the umpteenth time at 2am. We are hanging in there and i hope that in another week or so I can come back and say things have improved again.

How is everyone else?

missclairep Fri 11-Apr-14 21:46:48

it took us 2 weeks to get lb off night feeds he's 17 months and was bf , weaning him from milk for naps one feed a month then doing the night feeds last, he resisted greatly especially at night, screaming a lot. but we got through it, now on cows milk, again took two weeks of expressing and giving him bottles before he would even drink cows milk! hope you can see light at the end of the tunnel now, good luck thanks thanks

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 12-Apr-14 07:04:24

Hi. You're doing so well princess, that's really good news and the last feed will go in time.

Artemis good to see you. Thank you for the post and I hope it's been ok returning to work.

liveinthepresent I hope you're still on. Maximum of one wake up, any change there?

Thank you missclairep it's always useful to know what works for ppl.

A healthier household here (fingers crossed). DD waking up twice for a feed. I'm working on her daytime food. A few nights she's not fed to sleep so I'm counting that as a positive.

couch to 5k sounds interesting. I used to love running but my pelvic floor is less keen these days. grin

Liveinthepresent Wed 16-Apr-14 22:51:30

hello all - it was really good to hear all the updates and sorry mine is so late.
we continue to have the odd upset but in general things are quite stable with the one night waking being the norm.
I am actually happier with this than the longer stretch and then early waking - but am sure this is probably the wrong way to look at things. I just like anything that gives me more sleep currently!
DS is ill again/still but i am encouraged that there has been no sign of hideous regression back to the hourly waking (please god don't let me tempt fate!) so that reassures me we have come a long way.
Actually i have to say he has changed so much in the last few months and is loving eating and gaining mobility i wonder how much would have changed naturally anyway.
Artemis sorry you are finding it tough but I can assure you there was a time when I couldn't see past some of the challenges - and now I can barely remember them, hang in here! Now i put DS down at bedtime and almost every night he just rolls on his side with his comforter and drops off without a murmur. Yes DH and I are still on a sort of 'plan' but it gets delayed whenever there is a good or bad spell. i guess we wouldn't do that if we were paying for a certain amount / time of support. but actually it works ok because when we have a set back we just refocus on the plan and i am confident we will get there. I have stopped comparing him to my wonder sleeper DD - though she is a nightmare sometimes now so I reckon DS will be a fab toddler sleeper to balance it out!

sorry am waffling as am at home alone with a glass of wine!
hope everyone else is ok and gets some sleep over Easter - look forward to more updates.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 17-Apr-14 07:23:33

Hi. Thanks liveinthepresent
Will post later.

NiMhurchu Sun 20-Apr-14 00:54:10

Hi all! I just thought I'd update, last time I posted DS (now 9m) was down to 2 feeds - 3am and 6ish but still plenty of wake-ups, and lots of bouncing sessions to get him back to sleep.

For the past 5 nights he has slept 7pm-7/8am. With no wake-ups or feeds. He naps twice a day in his cot, both well over an hour if not two. He goes to sleep on his own, no bouncing/patting/feeding. although our bed is now ruined from the bouncing

For a couple of months now I was certain he was not waking from hunger at night, he just didn't know how to go to sleep by himself. I was always 'putting' him to sleep. I knew he to learn to let himself drift off, but didn't know how to help him learn.

It's all because of a thread I put on my watch list at the start. You probably seen it 'what worked for us...' It was saved for 2months before I even considered trying it. I started it one night on a whim out of desperation. We're on day 9 and only 2 non-naps (try for an hour and get them up if not sleeping) and one bad bedtime (DH probably fcked up and confused him).

I have never considered any methods of sleep teaching that involve crying. But when I thought about it as him learning to do something that he doesn't know, some crying is reasonable. I keep comparing it to learning to walk. Which he will learn to do at some stage but if I carry him around forever he will never get the chance to. He will fall over and may cry but won't be a reason to stop letting him try. I've been thinking of it as 'letting him learn' as opposed to 'teaching him'.

Apologies for my rambling and wise slurred words. There are a few benefits of a baby that doesn't need fed at night gringrinwine

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 20-Apr-14 07:05:50

Wow NiM that's great.
Thanks for updating.
I have become desperate now. We're off on holiday in about a month and I just don't want to be getting upl every night there tbh.
Dd is 14 mo now. And I think if I stop the night feeds (usually one now) she'll be ok and eat more in the day too.
Sha has a cough at,. S I'm not convinced its the best time but in the next week I'm going back to using the rocking chair and cuddling/ offering water rather than co sleeping and bf.
<off to find your other thread>

ArtemisTheHunter Mon 21-Apr-14 17:51:04

NiM that's terrific. I'd saved that thread too and not had the bottle to try it. However we are now doing something similar as part of our work with the sleep consultant. I'd hoped that DD's sleep would just miraculously sort itself out once we dealt with what I thought were the main issues, but in the last few weeks I've stopped feeding to sleep, stopped co sleeping (mostly grin), got down to one night feed and moved her into her own room but self settling hasn't automatically followed and DD (8 months) still wakes roughly every 90 minutes during the night. I'm struggling though to be honest. Some nights she'll go to sleep with hardly any crying but night wakes are another matter, she can wail for half a hour at a time and although I know the crying is part of the learning process and that trying to fix it is like teaching her to walk by carrying her around (I like that analogy!) it still goes against my instincts to sit in the room and not pick her up or cuddle her when she cries. Especially at 2am.

We are persevering though, and are still in a much better place than we were a month ago. AC there was no magic solution to dropping night feeds! we just had to do it. We only started after the move to her own room though, I don't think I could have managed if we were still co sleeping as I would have caved in too easily. I stayed away for a few nights, DP settled her, she goes from the dream feed at roughly 11 to the morning feed at 7 and isn't ravenous in the morning so I'm confident the crying during the night is not to do with hunger. It is just so bloody hard. I have friends whose babies have slept all night every night since being tiny with no effort required on their part, I am so envious of people who have been spared this misery!

Hope everyone has enjoyed the bank holiday weekend. It's been lovely and sunny here and only just started raining this evening in time for going back to work smile

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 21-Apr-14 19:55:20

Hi artemis
You're doing so well.
I am forever in a pickle. I want o stop night feeds because I think it's a step towards stopping night wakings (I know she'll still wake sometimes, but I'd like a few nights a week whe I don't have to get up.)
I'd also like to have a wine after puttin the DCs to bed. I do sometimes but I worry about feedin her afterwards. And that makes me feel very guilty.
Now she has a cough.
But in a few days I think I'm just going to bite the bullet. She only usually wakes once. I'm so exhausted I know it's affecting every aspect of my life. I could cry with tiredness most days.
Anyway.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 23-Apr-14 20:25:28

Poor dd has a cough.
But the last three nights she's slept through until 4 or 5.
Just saying.
I expect I've jinxed it now by saying anything. grin
Thinking of you all.

ArtemisTheHunter Wed 23-Apr-14 21:53:23

Ooh AC grin hope it continues. Have you been doing anything different?

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 24-Apr-14 04:54:11

No. Nothing different. I've been rocking and singing as well as bf as she goes to sleep. I doubt hats it.
But last night she was up for a feed at 2 ish and 4ish.
See? Spoke too soon.
<off to lie down on motorway>

ArtemisTheHunter Thu 24-Apr-14 09:26:12

I'll join you in the fast lane. Last night DD screamed her head off for over an hour after the dream feed. I did nothing different either - fed, put down sleepy but awake as normal in the same cot where she had happily settled without any crying 3 hours earlier. Honestly if the devil had showed up at midnight and offered to swap her for a cat I would have gone for it grin

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 24-Apr-14 10:29:41

Oh sorry Artemis
brew

I am shredded. I actually feel physically and mentally unwell.

I think I need to be really tough and just go cold turkey with stopping night feeds. Ill cuddle her and rock her and offer water but no booby before 5am. I have no faith in all the sleep association stuff.
I know there are times when she will still need something at night but I can't carry on with feeding every single night.

carolinementzer Thu 24-Apr-14 19:41:26

Hiya, we had the same problem at 15months - my daughter wouldn't go to sleep without a feed and woke 6-8 x a night. I was exhausted!! We couldn't do CIO cos she would vomit if left alone for even a few minutes, and it just didn't sit well with me. But....we knew we had to get her off night feeds - here's my blog post on what we did - mydaughterwontsleep.com/2014/02/06/is-breast-best-when-it-comes-to-sleep-apparently-not/

Good luck!

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 25-Apr-14 07:28:10

Aarrgggghhh
Last night was awful. Bf on and off from midnight.
Initially I tired to just rock and cuddle her but I realise now I can't do it. She cried and pointed at my boob and I simplly couldn't hold out.
So. I am doomed.
When do they stop this naturally?

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 26-Apr-14 07:40:03

Well. I decided that there's to be no more bf after bedtime.
I made up some bottles of water in case she was thirsty and put the rocking chair in her room.
Bf her to sleep in my room with ds. (sometimes she doesn't bf to sleep, sometimes she does)

Then she woke at 00:40. I was terrified. I sat with her, cuddling and rocking her. She cried, she refused water and was asking for bf, but after about 20 minutes she settled. She fell asleep in my arms and I waited a good while before putting her in her cot.

Then she woke again at 03:40. It was tougher this time. She cried harder and for longer. She really wanted her bf. I felt wretched, so mean. But i just kept rocking and cuddling and stroking her head.
She took a couple of sips of water but was upset at no bf. after about 30 minutes? She settled enough to cosleep. Then she woke again at 6:30. I took her into my room and fed her. Now she's up for the day after a play with ds.
It wasn't actually as bad as it could have been. I am really tired.

DH (who had the bed to himself all bloody night) reckons she woke him too and hes tired from beng awake since 4am. So when ive finished this write up I have to go and get my trusty shovel.

So. No self settling. But one step at a time and I'm quite pleased with how well she did.

How about you guys?

Liveinthepresent Sat 26-Apr-14 09:24:46

Wow AC that's amazing - you must have had nerves of steel ! Keep going now if you can- whenever we make changes it seems to take about three nights to click so if you tell yourself it's just a few nights you will get through it.
Your DH must be very brave to say that to you ! grin
We are doing well here - some amazing sleep throughs and no 'bad' nights - just the odd wake up.
DS has got his first teeth and had antibiotics for the cough so I think that is all making for a more settled time.
Praying it continues. Haven't actually tackled how I handle the wake ups so I still BF though he never really falls asleep until back in his cot now. I am probably risking some huge regression and bring back a square one.
Have a good weekend

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 26-Apr-14 16:56:53

That sounds like good natural progress Liveinthepresent
I really, really hope that we get some progress before too long. ATM I'm just winging it and seeing how long we can go IYSWIM. I'd love to have some predictable sleep throughs in about 2 weeks.

ArtemisTheHunter Sat 26-Apr-14 23:17:53

AC that's brilliant. Consistency is key i think. She will get used to it in a couple of days and it will get easier. Our SC warned us to expect a regression on about night 3 or 4 of trying anything new and that did seem to happen with our DD so don't be disheartened if you have a bad night. It is tough but ultimately you will all sleep better, including your DD, if she isn't feeding all night.

Live it sounds like you're doing really well, if DS is going into his cot awake after feeds I would think you're much less likely to risk setbacks. Hopefully the sleep throughs will get more consistent from now on.

My DD has a streaming cold and has been a sorry sight for the last few days. I think she's finally cutting her first tooth as well. The cold started after the night of awful crying - I felt terrible the next day, there's no way I would have let her cry so much if i had known she was getting poorly. However, despite (or maybe because of) being ill she slept 7pm - 2am last night, had feeds at 2 and 5 then slept until 7am. I think that counts as her best night ever. Tonight she's been in bed since 7 and not needed me yet. I've heard her shuffling and coughing a few times over the monitor but she seems to be settling herself. It's a struggle not to go in and prod her awake to make sure she's OK grin. I got in bed at 9.30 (DP is out) intending to catch up on sleep but I'm still awake as I can't believe she hasn't got me up yet! Not expecting a re-run of last night but the fact she hasn't woken on the dot at 10 like she usually does feels like progress.

Sleepy vibes to everyone, especially you AC, hope it's going well for you tonight.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 27-Apr-14 05:39:04

That's great artemis. Sounds like you're doing well. Thanks for the advice and get well wishes to your dd.

Last night dd went to sleep around 7:45. She woke at 3:40. I held and rocked her for an hour while she intermittently protested, sometimes crying. Then she woke at 5:15, apparently ready for the day so I've just fed her.
So fucking tired.
I have work tomorrow and I actually dont know how I'm going o manage. It's truly not funny anymore.
But I think dd is doing very well, I'm proud o her. Now I'll be watching for that regression but hopefully in a few days shell be more settled.

Liveinthepresent Mon 28-Apr-14 13:48:43

Hang in there AC it really sounds like you are going to crack it! focus on the prize of not getting up in the night on your holiday! wine
Artemis also really good to hear your update that does sound like a lot of progress from hourly wake ups.

we are still doing well - last night he went from 8 ish to 7 am - and this is starting to be almost the norm!
really its a miracle from where I was at the start of the thread.

Now we have realised we need to work on DD routine - as she is still taking a long time to get to sleep at night and we will need to put her in a bed soon which if we don't have her settling quickly will be a nightmare.

wish you all lots of sleep.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 28-Apr-14 16:35:27

Oh well done liveinthepresent
Dd slept until almost 4am. I rocked and cuddled her and she settled quite quickly. She then woke at 430. Same again.Woke at five so I fed her.

Liveinthepresent Mon 28-Apr-14 18:29:09

AC that sounds really promising - well done your DD - we had some early wake ups initially when he started sleeping long stretches but they are gradually reducing.
there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Now he sometimes wakes at 11 and sometimes at 5 - not both on the same night but I feed him and he quickly goes back down so its not a drama even on the nights he doesn't go the whole way through.
Have been dropping third nap as well so thats caused a few blips.

ArtemisTheHunter Mon 28-Apr-14 19:02:29

AC that sounds really good. Apparently the wakes between 3 and 5 am are the hardest to crack but it sounds like you are heading in the right direction!

Live great to hear of your progress. It gives me hope that we might get there too. After 2 good nights over the weekend, last night was back to 3 wakes and a 6 am start but now DD has proved she can sleep for longer I think we just need to persevere. The bedtime routine has really helped us with night-time settling so I'd say it's worth working on.

Wishing everyone a peaceful night...

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 29-Apr-14 06:32:03

Up at 11 and 3.
Shocking timing.
No feeding. Very little crying (from dd anyway)
Now up (from 6) feeding.
Feel like utter shit.I don't know which way is up. DH reckons he didn't s.eep from 3. "well fucking get up then****"

ArtemisTheHunter Tue 29-Apr-14 20:24:27

You're doing well though, if she is no longer feeding but not crying. It might just need a few more nights.

Feeling like shit here too. 3 wakes last night but the middle one involved a hour and a quarter of screaming from 1.45am. Then up at 6. All dealt with myself because DP 'can't cope' with crying. I don't know what makes him think I can.

Sending wine for tonight and brew for tomorrow morning. Hang in there.

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 29-Apr-14 20:50:35

Oh thanks Artemis. It means so much to me to have support here.
You poor thng. Three wake ups is horrible. I hope tonight is better.

ArtemisTheHunter Tue 29-Apr-14 21:00:34

It's tough, isn't it? I keep seeing little glimmers of improvement but it's frustratingly slow and inconsistent. Her bedtime settling is pretty good now but it doesn't seem to translate into settling during the night. Hard to know how much impact the cold and teething has.

Hope you have a better night AC. I'm heading to bed now and hoping I can at least get an hour in <crosses fingers>.

Liveinthepresent Tue 29-Apr-14 23:22:49

Good luck ! dS randomly woke one hour after bed time . Sense of impending doom as big work day tomorrow.
Fingers crossed.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 30-Apr-14 06:12:07

I think teething makes a big difference.
Well done on getting her to settle well at night. I daren't put dd in her cot awake- I have so far to go don't I? grin

Liveinthepresent good luck for work today.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 02-May-14 16:15:07

I have cracked night feeds.
It was really all down to having the confidence that she was well and was feeding for comfort.
Night wakings are a different matter of course.
Up at 9.30 (settled by dh asi was working) then at around 1am. Up at five for morning feed.
I need to move that first feed. But not ready yet.
I need to tackle the night wakings. I think gradual withdrawal is a good plan. We shall see. Not ready. Too bloody tired grin

Liveinthepresent Sat 03-May-14 23:37:48

AC thats amazing - i totally agree that its easier when you aren't agonising that maybe they really need the comfort/sustenance.
keep the faith and the goal of your holiday in mind. I think the theory is that they get better at resettling when they know milky cuddles aren't the answer.
it seems to be true here - DS has cut 4 teeth in the last 10 days ish and has slept through or only woken once.
She might work it out for herself without you needing to do anything much.
hope you are having a wine

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 04-May-14 19:30:27

Well done liveinthepresent

ArtemisTheHunter Sun 04-May-14 21:32:21

Wow AC that's brilliant. You too, Live. Sleeping through teething is no mean feat.

I would really appreciate any experience anyone has to offer as we're going backwards here. Bedtime settling has got tricky again, night wakings increasing and no longer settling back in the cot. The longest she slept last night was a 2-hour stretch and she was up solidly between 4.40 and 6. I am really struggling. I can't blame cold or teething any more as both are more or less over. I'm just dreading what she has in store for us tonight.

Liveinthepresent Sun 04-May-14 22:13:44

Artemis you poor thing that sounds hard. Do you think there is any explanation?
If it helps - DS has woken up twice so ce bedtime tonight...

Liveinthepresent Sun 04-May-14 22:13:52

Since

ArtemisTheHunter Sun 04-May-14 22:31:20

I don't know, Live. She has had a bad cold which became a lingering cough that wakes her and has cut 2 teeth in the last week. That all upset our progress and I got in the habit of getting her in with me if she protested at the cot, mainly because I was never confident that the crying was about sleep rather than because she was ill or teething. That's disrupted the cot settling. But looking back the two good nights were total anomalies, the grand scheme of things has been lots of night wakes and lots of crying. Did you have much crying with your DD? That's the thing I find really hard even though I know that in the main it's protest crying not because there's anything really wrong.

Liveinthepresent Sun 04-May-14 23:12:33

ohh I wish I could offer you some pearls of wisdom. what i can say is that somewhere on this bumpy sleep journey i had a spell that seemed to go on for weeks where we made no progress - then suddenly it sort of clicked - its not perfect as tonight shows but coughs and teeth are huge obstacles so don't get too despondent if it feels like you are going backwards.

are you still working with Ann?

will keep my fingers crossed for tonight for you.

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 05-May-14 08:12:04

Oh poor Artemis
How old is she?
I thin it sounds like an expected regression after her teething/ illness.
It's hard for me to offer experience because I've never managed to settle dd in her OT.
I think taking a couple of steps back is worth s try.
brew

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 05-May-14 19:33:01

Omg. I'm so behind aren't I.
Dd usually wakes once in the wee small hours, and goes back to sleep with a cuddle (sometimes 19 mins, sometimes an hour) then she's up around five. I can handle one or the other, but both a wake up and an early start are truly truly killing me. Dh thinks he understands because he's woken too but obviously there's no comparison between getting up and just being woken.
I don't put her down awake. I can't imagine being able to do that.
Oh shit. I'm never going to sleep properly again am I.

Liveinthepresent Mon 05-May-14 21:09:08

AC don't worry you are doing really well. you don't seem to get loads of wake ups anymore - so i guess its just a question of how you get rid of one of those two wakes. I have no advice because I think you are working at your and DD's pace which is probably less painful than forcing it.
to be honest i think i was incredibly lucky that DS has turned a corner without any real 'sleep training' i still haven't acted on bits of the advice from the sleep lady as I am too keen on the path of least resistance. for now i seem to have got away with it..
artemis keep posting really hope you are ok. I got so scared last night when DS woke up twice during the evening - I think DH thought i was nuts but I literally felt panicky at the thought of returning to hourly wake ups.

My next challenge is whether DS will sleep well / at all in a travel cot for the first time when we go away in less than two weeks..

ArtemisTheHunter Mon 05-May-14 21:39:20

Thanks for the support ladies, it really helps. We had a better night last night, still several wakes and up before 6 but I managed to get her back into the cot after feeds and she didn't scream her head off at any point. Live yes we are still working with Ann. She has been brilliant and unfailingly positive though I can imagine her rolling her eyes (in a kind way) at the sight of another email from me crying over what a hard time we're having when I haven't properly followed her plan. It's just very very difficult. I think perhaps the illness, teething etc had a bigger impact than I imagined. We really need a couple of good nights now to get back on track <crosses fingers>

AC according to our sc many babies will simply drop the wakes when the feeds aren't happening any more. Now you're not feeding, could your DH alternate the night wakes with you? I know that's easier said than done. I got up 3 times last night, DP once, but he was the one moaning about being tired today. Men just don't see it as their responsibility in the same way I don't think.

Wishing everyone a good night. I start to get twitchy around this time as the first wake tends to set the tone for the rest of the night.

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 06-May-14 19:51:37

liveinthepresent I can understand that fear. I hope it wasn't realised.
Fwiw, my dcs have never been less settled (if that makes sense) in the travelcot or different environments. Good luck.

Well done Artemis it's great to know there's some improvement, although I know it's so frustrating to be moving slowly.

Thank you both for your encouragement. I'm praying for a decent night. It's been quite a tough day today and I could do with some sleep before unravelling it all tomorrow.

grainmum Wed 07-May-14 22:47:02

hi ladies, I have been lurking for a while but I'm now resolved to stop feeding my 11m son overnight, in the vain hope that he will wake less. Up until now I say I'll do it then crack after 30mins crying, made worse by the fact that DS now knows exactly what he wants and how to get it (hand down my top etc). You all seem to be making progress - I wonder what your top tips are?

Just changed into my high neck top, hoping to be strong tonight!

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 07-May-14 23:03:23

Hi grainmum I have no tactic. I just (eventually, after much procrastinating) decided to refuse night feeds. I cuddle and rock dd and offer her water. She has a cold and took lots of water the night before last but only one wake up most nights and last night she slept from 730pm until 4:45 am. I won't count my chickens just yet.
Good luck. Go at your own pace and dont be scared.

FastWindow Wed 07-May-14 23:08:04

I bought a cot at 6mo and put dd in it. It's lined with a fleece blanket. Anytime I have to do pickup - put down i always put my fleecy dressing gown on. My theory is that it minimises the change of environment... I'm not saying is foolproof, but it's a constant.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 08-May-14 07:01:37

That's a nice tip fastwindow

Good grief. What a horrible night.
I had work to do so whet to bed after 11, which is super late for me.
Dd slept well. Until about 2am <groan>. And although I didn't feed her (gave her some water) she was unsettled for ages. I final,y put her down at around 4am. Then she was up just after 5.
Dh is still in bed and has no idea how close he is to being bludgeoned to death.

ArtemisTheHunter Thu 08-May-14 16:53:48

grainmum I have no tips either as we're still struggling but DD does settle better for my DP, probably because he doesn't smell of milk.

AP why is a good night always followed by a shit one? Hope you've been OK today and you managed to dispose of DH's body without being discovered. Our couple of decent nights over the weekend have been followed by a return to 3 - 4 wakes per night, crying at bedtime, total cot nap fail. Two steps forward, two back. There are glimmers of hope - she is consistently now spending the whole night in the cot - but it's difficult. I know we are not progressing anywhere near as quickly as the SC would like us to and i don't know whether it is DD holding back the pace or actually me. I just can't bear the prospect of crying for hours on end so tend to take the easier and more interventionist option to get her to sleep.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 09-May-14 07:35:29

Artemis I have the same feelings about crying. I'm just not going to leave her to get on with it. It's not happening.
I need to move forward now though. Quite pleased about having stopped the night feeds. And last night she didn't feed to sleep either, so I'm starting to make some in-roads there, but I need to get her to go to sleep in her cot, rather than in my arms.
I just struggle with the logistics of starting that gradual process tbh.
And it's hard to think because she was up for a couple of hours last night, than up for the day at five.
I'm genuinely really suffering now. It's not funny anymore.

Liveinthepresent Fri 09-May-14 21:28:38

hello all am still here - we are doing well. DS is pretty much sleeping through every night - though he is coming down with a cough and cold again so that may send us back off the rails.
Now my only remaining challenge is a phase of early waking. I know I have nothing to complain about really but these are really exhausting me. I guess I need to get in the habit of going to bed much earlier to cope.Sorry to those of you still really suffering please don't think I have forgotten how much tougher your nights are!
welcome grainmum
AC you have done so well without any help from your DH I can really relate to what you say about not knowing where to start with the next stage - I really struggled with that and still do if we need to change something small it throws me off completely! I find it amazing some people seem to find it so easy to put two kids to bed on their own.
if it helps - what worked for us was to change one small thing at a time - then once it became habit change something else. this was what the sleep lady really helped me with - bite sized chunks.
happy weekends everyone

grainmum Sat 10-May-14 12:11:53

DS is snuffly and has fever. However we still managed not to feed to sleep, and he fell asleep in cot in less than 10mins. Just woke every hour in the evening then spent the night from 12.30 asleep on DH or I in rocking chair, woke each time we attempted transfer to cot :-( Hope he's better quickly so habit doesn't become entrenched.

AC hope you get some rest over the weekend. live good to hear there's light at the end of the tunnel!

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 10-May-14 20:12:57

liveinthepreesent thanks. You're right. Bite sized chunks.
You've done so well. It's really impressive. I hope your DS Is ok and the cold doesn't upset your sleep success too much.

grainmum poor you and poor DS. Good grief, it's so horrible when they're poorly.

I re read NCSS today. I've decided that I'm not too botched about feeding to sleep at bedtime ATM.
I'm going to cocnentrate on making sure she has good naps (proving tricky ATM) and spending some happy time in her cot and thinking about making small changes to rocking to sleep when she awakes in the night. So basically small steps between now: rocking to sleep and putting back in cot when fully asleep, through to being able to put her in the cot awake.
I'll see if when she wakes in the night tonight I can put h back when she's almost asleep and then hold her while she's in the cot IYSWIM,.
When I read it back I sound like such a wuss.

EmmaLL25 Sun 11-May-14 11:19:09

Hi ladies.

I've been reading with interest. I recognise some names from other threads. Can I join you?

My LO is almost 1, awful sleeper!

We had a spell where we got down to two wake ups with only one night feed - that was about 7 months. But since Christmas due to illness, starting nursery and a house move its all gone wrong.

Anyway after this latest cold is past I'm resolved to make changes. Stopping night feeds definitely needs to be done.

When not ill my LO will go to sleep by himself but with me in room. Currently though he thinks his cot is an awful place and wails if I put him in awake.

I'm going up try a quick version if gradual retreat so I'm out if room when he goes to sleep. I thought I'd give that a week to see if it makes any difference to night wakings.

If it doesn't cut them down I think I'm going to need to go cold turkey on night feeds (he's bf, refused bottle, will take a little from cup). I'm hoping he gets there by himself because I think he'll go crazy otherwise.

It's comforting to know other folk are in same boat (helps me feel like I've not quite so crap parent!)

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 11-May-14 19:56:13

Hi Emma
I think you've done fine tbh. Your ds is not quite 1 year, so the wake ups are normal. But very tough.

I failed with planning today. We were out. Dd had opportunity (pram and car) but no nap until on the way home from. 4.30 - 5.15. sad
Bf to sleep now. She's eaten ok ish today and been running about too so who knows. I think I'm too tired to use any techniques for getting her back to sleep in ger cot. Plus I have an insane work day tomorrow so please, please little one, have nice happy sleep.

Liveinthepresent Sun 11-May-14 21:10:39

Hello Emma yes I recognise your name - sorry you are still suffering but as AC said you probably aren't doing as badly as you think. Though i know it doesn't feel like it when you seem to have gone backwards and can't see progress.

AC thanks - but i am still not really sure if progress was down to me or DS.
He has mastered crawling this weekend grin and his cough/cold is really bad. Had 2 wake ups last night - 11 and then 5.30 but he went back to sleep until 7.45.
He has already woken once tonight as well - literally too bunged up to breathe through his nose.
So its not perfect but considering he is so poorly I am just happy there has been no regression back to hourly / two hourly waking.

By the way you definitely do not sound like a wuss - and I think your plans make sense. The first thing we did with the sleep lady was focus on naps and make sure the bedtime routine was consistent - and factored in cot play every day.. at the time it felt so far from where I needed to get to - but ultimately i think it did work.
Also totally makes sense to start when you feel ready - and your day has been on track.

Anyway am waffling again - fingers crossed everyones nights are bearable.

grainmum Mon 12-May-14 19:05:38

live the cot play thing puzzles me. Surely that makes it more difficult for them to know when you're putting them down to sleep?

TheRealAmandaClarke Tue 13-May-14 02:58:09

Yes, that puzzles me too grain

Well, I'm utterly finished. I wholly expect to have the most enormous, serious trouble at work because I can no longer function.
Dd woke at 11 ish and settled quickly. Then ds came in around midnight needing help to go to the loo, then dd was up again around 1:30 and has just settled. No feeding, but I now can't sleep. This is going to be the actual finish of me. She'll be up again at five (if I'm lucky) even if I could get back to sleep its not even worth it.
I hope you're all having a better night.
Omg I can't believe I'm expected to do my job. I am so going to be in the shit.

ArtemisTheHunter Tue 13-May-14 22:08:46

AC how did you get on at work? Hope you made it through the day. We had a crap night last night too, crying at bedtime, two-hourly wakes then a hour of screaming from 3am. I'm sure DD must have known I needed to be up at 5.45 to travel to a work meeting. I got the train, it was a longer more expensive journey but I just wasn't fit to drive.

Hi Emma, I recognise your name too. FWIW I don't think any of us are crap parents smile

grainmum we've been doing cot play too. For us it was about showing DD that the cot is a safe and happy place to be. It helped me understand that the problem isn't about the location but about sleep itself - sounds stupid, but because DD would never sleep anywhere but on one of us I thought it was because she hated the Moses basket/ carrycot/ cot/ wherever. Now we know she's happy and secure in the cot we know that isn't the issue. I think it has helped with the self settling, though that has been very hit and miss lately, back to crying at bedtime which we haven't had for weeks <sigh>.

I'm still feeding at night, usually twice unless we have a really bad night. The HV told me last week that DD is not likely to STTN through until i stop BFing. I don't know if there is anything behind this other than her opinion but it didn't thrill me as DD is just nine months and I don't really have any plans to stop BF, I had planned to continue to a year but I don't know what I will do after that.

Liveinthepresent Tue 13-May-14 22:49:44

AC oh my goodness I really hope you survived the day. I have often wondered how so many knackered people can hold down jobs..

grainmum yep agree about the cot play I thought the same - though my DD always spent awake time in hers and has always loved her bed - even now she still happily plays in the evening and morning. But the key thing is has always slept 11/12 hours.

I think as Artemis says the thing is knowing that they like and feel safe in the environment you want them to sleep in.
the theory is there are plenty of other cues that its sleep time.
I think it did help us.

DS is waking more at night now with his cough - but the key thing is its probably only once either at 3 or 5. Artemis now that he doesn't feed to sleep and eats loads he never falls asleep during a feed and so seems less bothered about milk at night wakings. I still BF because its my habit as much as his and i can sit down and read MN.

night all

grainmum Tue 13-May-14 23:23:15

OK that makes sense.

artemis do you think not feeding overnight is likely to lead to stopping BF altogether? I'm trying to stop feeding overnight but I'm still feeding first thing, twice through the day, then bedtime. I work 2 days and don't feed/express through the day on those days. It doesn't seem to make any difference to DS the next day.

TheRealAmandaClarke Wed 14-May-14 05:54:26

artemis Thanks. I agree Bout the driving. I hope your day was ok.
I know my opinion on sleep is not to be trusted (given my non sleeping dd) and its true that bf babies seem to wake more than ff babies but stopping night feeds has made NO difference to waking at night.mnone whatsoever. If I stopped bf altogether then maybe it would change. It did with my ds but he was 2 yo then.
Your ds is still going to need a feed at night at this stage. It's really very common. If want to stop bf then it might well make a difference. But if you don't, or of you're unsure then don't be dissuaded from your 1 yr plan.
You should definitely do what you want to.

livein it's great that you have fewer night feeds. Sorry about DS's cough. Poor thing. Dd has a cold. It doesn't help does it.

I'm still feeding dd morning and evening. And sometimes at lunchtime. But no night feeds.

I'm dying actually. I'm utterly shredded and nobody gives a shit because ey all think I'm pathetic for not letting her CIO. I can't talk to anyone about it. It's like my dirty little secret.
I absolutely loathe going in to work. I can't begin to describe how much I resent not being a sahm at this stage in my dcs life. I'm on my knees.

grainmum Thu 15-May-14 16:24:37

AC how's it going? It's such a shame you feel pressurised to let your daughter cry - different things are right for different families. Is there anything you could do about work - reduce your days/hours?

ArtemisTheHunter Thu 15-May-14 16:52:38

Grainmum I don't see why stopping night feeds should lead to stopping BF, there seem to be plenty of people out there who have managed to night wean while continuing to BF, I'd just love to know how they did it! I feed at the same times as you do, and DD has EBM on the two days I work (just a small bottle morning and afternoon). She eats plenty during the day but she still wants to feed when she wakes at night. I've been timing night feeds - average of 8 minutes of which no more than 5 is actual feeding. I am pretty certain it's habit/comfort, not hunger.

I don't think the HV was suggesting I should stop BF to curb the night wakings (though previous HVs have raised this as an option!) but clearly it wouldn't necessarily follow. I'm generally sceptical of HV advice around breastfeeding, I've heard them come out with some right old crap.

AC I'm really sorry you're having such a hard time. It's knackering isn't it. I'm shattered and I don't even work full time. And I am horribly jealous of a few well-off SAHMs I know who put their toddlers into nursery a few days a week so they can have time to themselves envy. As Grainmum says, is there anything you could do about the workload? Or anyone who could help? possibly not your DH now he is under the patio. I too have been told to CIO by numerous people to the point where I now tell them sleep is fine because I don't want to hear it again. I think people who have never had a baby who can't sleep are happy to recommend techniques they've never had to consider using themselves. You are doing really well though, stopping night feeds is the first step. Surely at some point she will realise there's no point in waking up? <clings to hope>

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 15-May-14 17:53:17

Youre both so lovely.thank you
Will post later.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 15-May-14 19:15:25

Sorry about the meltdown blush
I'm very lucky to work pt. so I can't make any changes to that sadly. I know it will improve.
Yes, I've been lying to some ppl too. Because I don't want to hear any more views on CIO. grin
I have night weaned, and I still feed dd during the day. It wasn't actually as hard as I thought it might be. I just stopped. When dd woke I cuddled and rocked her and when she "asked for" milk I offered water. She cried a bit at first, and she still wakes up now (as yu know grin) but she seems to accept I don't feed her until 5am, and that's in my room.
Last night when she woke I decided o try to settle her in her cot, by the wuss method, so I got in there with her and lay down. It took fucking ages a while, and she cried a little bit, wriggled, stood up, lay down, stood up etc for over an hour. But at least I was lying down, and she was taking one teeny weeny step towards going to sleep in her cot.

Oh poor us, threadfellows. But it's got to get better hasn't it?
Wishing you all a peaceful night.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 15-May-14 19:16:54

Dh has just told me he's very tired.
Just saying

<off to find shovel>

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 16-May-14 06:58:22

Ok. Don't tell anyone but dd slept from 7:15 until 04:30. I think she only woke up then because I had woken from a bad dream shouting!
Is it very odd that I don't care it was a bad dream? The point is that I slept for long enough to dream. Actual rem sleep.
Well, we'll see what tonight brings.
How were all your nights?

EmmaLL25 Fri 16-May-14 07:51:41

After a few bad nights and miserable attempts to get him to settle in cot I took side back off cot. We kept ending up co sleeping anyway so we might as well have room.

Oddly Tuesday this week he self settled to sleep and did 4 hrs before waking. Next night took forever to settle him and had to feed, same last night. I wish I knew what made the difference.

He's settling for his dad again sometimes again with rocking. Keep wondering when I'm going to be brave enough to try night weaning.

I keep chickening out. I saw another thread about babies night weaning on their own. That would be nice.

I never ask HV about sleep, I did at 4 months and response while well meaning was pretty useless.
If people ask me about sleep I just shrug and say its crap and change subject. I did almost lamp my neighbour in supermarket when he told me how great CC was. His wife had a different version of that experience which involved baby biting and vomiting.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 16-May-14 08:33:46

How old is ds emma?

grainmum Fri 16-May-14 16:17:49

Well done AC. There's something about more than 4 hours in a row that is so much better.

We didn't count last night - I had to go out (sadly boring meeting) so DH put DS to bed, after a bottle (well he drank 1oz). So when he woke at 1.30 I fed him then he woke for the day at 5.30.

DH is so tired he's slept downstairs in the office for the past 2 nights. Didn't work last night, he woke up. Well, the office is below DS bedroom. I discovered this morning that it may also have had something to do with the fact that the baby monitor was in there, still switched on!

Is it very wrong that this makes me smile?

EmmaLL25 Fri 16-May-14 16:32:15

Our DS was 1 this week.

I think he could be 3 before he stops waking. His uncle was an awful sleeper apparently - this is good though as it stops any judgey comments from MIL (she's lovely actually). She just looks on with sympathy remembering the sleepless years she had.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 17-May-14 08:55:29

brew
Even though dd still wakes in the night I'm pleased I'm no longer feeding through the night.

grainmum Sat 17-May-14 16:12:51

Last night: bed at 8 , woke at 9 then slept until 5.20! Progress indeed.

Still waking until 3? I hope not. But I definitely think there is only so much of this you can do anything about and if you're getting stuck it's worth having a break for a few weeks before trying to move forwards again.

Mrs81 Sat 17-May-14 18:56:18

Hi smile May I pop my head round and pick your collective brains please?

DS is 11m, bf, and still feeds at night. He generally wakes between 10 & 11pm and seems proper hungry (big gulps of milk) and then often another 1-2 times before waking at 7ish. I just don't know how to wean him off any of these feeds. If I don't feed and just cuddle him then he's usually v upset. DH tries to settle him and that works around 50% of the time. At best.

DS is quite small (9th centile) and I wonder if that makes a difference (smaller tummy?!?).

Goodness, that's a lot of waffle. confused

My main question is if you manage to settle without feeding, are your babies still crying after you pick them up? I don't mind spending time rocking and cuddling but so often milk seems to be what he needs/wants.

Thank you for getting through my weary brain dump!

grainmum Sun 18-May-14 19:24:00

Hi, Mrs81, yes sometimes DS is still crying after I pick him up. I had to wear a high necked t-shirt so he can't get to my boobs. I was reassured by the fact that when he did eventually go to sleep he then slept for another few hours - so I decided he couldn't have been that hungry.

I started by saying I'm not going to feed him at intervals of less than 4 hours, so if I fed him at 7 before bed, not to feed again until 11. I've also heard people say choose the hours most important for your own sleep e.g. 12-6 and decide not to feed during those hours.

However, it's all really hard when it's 3am and you know a feed would get them back to sleep in 20mins!

Mrs81 Sun 18-May-14 21:49:05

Thanks Grainmun. It is hard isn't it? I don't particularly want to rush DS too much with this, rather gently help him learn to calm down again and go back to sleep without milk (in the first place) and then without us (me). But that needs to be a gradual shift I guess if he's been used to bf as comfort for so long.
Equally, I'm tired. And would like more sleep please!

TheRealAmandaClarke Mon 19-May-14 06:39:24

It will happen Mrs81
At 11 mo my dd just wasn't ready to give up the might feeds. She still needed the milk as well as the comfort.
It's only recently, at 15mo that I felt she could go without, and that I. Old comfort her through the process. I think you will know when you both ready.
Until that time I made up a futon style bed on the floor and co slept so that I maximised any opportunity for sleep and rest.

Last week dd slept from730 until 430. Then a few nights of awaking once around 2 or 3.
She managed 730 until 430 again last night. I'm so impressed with her.
I won't say that I wouldn't like a later start but she's made excellent progrerss. When she wakes up now, instead of getting her out of the cot I climb in with her so she has company while she tries to settle.

grainmum Tue 20-May-14 21:27:29

Thats great AC. I have similar progress to report - bedtime (somewhere between 7 and 8) until just before 5!

cakebaby Fri 23-May-14 15:56:24

Hello, can I join please? <waves blearily to artemis >

Ds is nearly 9 months, dreadful sleeper bar one glorious night he did 930-5 ish, I can't even remember it now! Bf to sleep, in cot at side of bed but co sleeps when I go to bed about 930. He'll feed then and 2 or 3 times in the night, waking between 530-630. I'm knackered. Done every nap, bedtime & night waking since he was born. Eats loads of solids, well, has 1 top tooth to cut soon.

He needs to go into his cot, in his room, stop feeding to sleep and reduce/stop night feeds. Not necessarily in that order but 1st three imperative as I'm back to work soon and will not be here for bedtime. I've already delayed returning to work due to his sleep issues and we are really feeling it now.

Can I have some opinions about doing one thing at a time (my preference) or all in one hit (DH preference).

What should I do first if taking it in stages? I can move into his room with him initially by DH thinks this just sets another precedent.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 23-May-14 22:10:12

grain well done. It's so good isnt it.
Although, the last few nights have been a bit shit. Waking at least once through the night and then at 4:30, at which point she's up for the day [we need a "pistol to my head " tbh]

But she's been poorly with a cough, and she's teething again. So fingers crossed for the passing of such horrid things.

Hello cakebaby. Poor thing. The tiredness is just so shit.
As is abundantly clear, I'm no expert, but I would say you should make whichever move you can be arsed with first. I think going into his own room is a good idea as a first step. He's still quite young so might be needing some of the night feeds. Then maybe drop one feed at a time.
I have no time for the opinions of DHs on sleep issues. grin
And I have reservations about the value of stopping feeding to sleep, but I am likely to be wrong on that one. Maybe it's worth a try as you move him into his own room. Can you get a matress in there so you could feed him lying down and at least have some rest?
I can't imagine anything worse than trying to tackle all three at once and I would bury my dh under the shed for if he'd made that suggestion.

TheRealAmandaClarke Fri 23-May-14 22:12:18

Sorry, I see you do have the facility to move there with him.
I would do that tbh. Because their would help ease him into the change of room/cot. No need to set him up to fail IYSWIM

cakebaby Sat 24-May-14 09:20:51

Thanks ac its good to have a sounding board dh turned into a PITA over this

So, into own room, into cot, reduce night feeds, aim to get him in cot all night. Sigh....

Its the randomness of it all that really bothers me, he settled fine at 715 last night, woke once for a quick shush & then didn't wake til I went to bed at 10 then feed, straight off, fed at 2, 430 & awake at 6. The night before was sheer hell. I never know what the night will bring.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sat 24-May-14 21:01:53

See how he goes in his own cot/ room tonight. And take it from there. It might be great, it might be really challenging. But I'd have some strategies in pace for coping if I were you. Being able to lay down in that room would be a good start IMHO.
Someone on MN recently wrote "you eat an elephant one bite at a time"
Damn right you do.

We had a long busy day yesterday and the DCs went to bed just after mine. Dd slept though until 6:15. I was stunned.
Out again today and she had a late, long nap. Dh is trying to put them to bed now. We shall see.

cakebaby Sun 25-May-14 08:10:05

He's still in with me blush we've not moved the cot yet as dh works shifts and wants the first few nights ds is in his own room to be ones when dh either isn't there or isn't on an early hmm err, who is this about?

Anyhow, OK to bed last night, hourly wakings till i went to bed at 10 but settled in a few mins with a shush. Woke at 415 for the day FFS.

Woke dh early who had to go to work, suddenly its all about him again as he's going to worry about me and ds both tired and not in the best of moods. I am SICK of his competitive tiredness Gimme that shovel.

So now, yet again we're behind the curve, ds is tired before the day should have started, bad tempered, refused breakfast, i'm so sick of this

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 25-May-14 17:46:01

I'm lookin' out the shovel for you. wink
But I'll read your post again later to see if there's something more constructive I can say. brew

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 25-May-14 17:47:42

Ok.
Does ds nap? When/ how long?
How much milk feeding is he doing in the day?
How's the teething going?
Any colds etc?

cakebaby Sun 25-May-14 19:10:06

Hi. He usually wakes at 6, naps for 35 mins at about 10 then after lunch at about 130 for about 2 hrs. Bath at 630, bed at 7. Loads of solids, 4 bf a day plus a 10pm ish feed and then usually one sometimes 2 in the night. If it's just 1 then it'll be about 4 am but he sometimes squeezes another in about 1am

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 25-May-14 19:45:41

Ok. So the hourly waking isn't usual for him?
That sounds like teething. Does that makes sense?

One or two feeds a night at his age isn't abnormal though, just bloody tiring.

cakebaby Sun 25-May-14 21:19:42

Oh yes, he now takes 30-60 mins to go to sleep at bedtime. Cot is at side of my bed with side off. He starts the night in there & comes in with me when I go to bed about 10.

Nice & calm/dozy downstairs after bath etc then starts to bulldoze around cot in his sleeping bag, standing up, bouncing hanging off the bars, singing etc. Eventually calms and feeds to sleep (I know, I know!) 80% of time, but he can just drift off when he wants to.

Wakes 35 mins on the dot after bedtime, this week I've been resettling with a shush or song, this would have been unthinkable even 2 weeks ago when I was feeding back to sleep each time. He then wakes hourly til I go to bed. Shush to sleep again. However, sometimes he'll do 2 or 3 hrs before waking, but not often. Its the randomness of it that I find difficult.

Recently we've had 2 hrly feeds thro the night, 2 feeds and just 1. We've had easy and bloody torturous bedtimes, quick wakings/feeds, 2 hr wake ups at 2 or 3 am, wake for the day at 415, 5, 6, 645. He's started to sleep on his front, crawl, stand & cruise in the last 14 days, we've had sleep crawling...WTAF is that all about?

We've had a cold/virus, fevers, trips to OOH at 2 am, 2 bottom teeth, 1 top tooth, other top tooth trying to cut thro now. Its bloody never ending! Now I've typed it all out its no wonder poor ds can't sleep!

He's been hideously cranky the last 2 days. My smiley, happy boy has been replaced by a frowning, sullen, furious, biting, scratching, nipping, grabbing, objectionable, frustrated little monster sad

Thank you for listening flowers dh helpful input included.... welcome to motherhood....I told you it would be hard....you wanted a baby.... All true, but not constructive.

TheRealAmandaClarke Sun 25-May-14 21:58:46

Some ppl say that babies are more unsettled at night when teething and also when they're at a new developmental threshold.
Illnesses seem to make quite a diffence. As soon as you think YouVe madee some progress a cold or whatever comes along and it's three steps back.
It is possible a very slightly earlier bedtime (bath at six etc) might help. They seem to easily get overtir and then there's no stopping the little monkeys.

grainmum Mon 26-May-14 21:17:35

Hi - my app on my phone seems to have decided that I should no longer log-onto Mumsnet whatsoever so I have been isolated from you all! (It's probably right and I am probably quite a bit more productive, but what else am I meant to do at 4am when DS decides it's time for his morning feed???)

So we seem to be very tired, and is falling asleep on the breast most nights - so quickly that I'm a bit worried my supply might dry up..... but waking around 4am last couple of nights. Almost got him back to sleep when he lay down on my hand last night but then I moved my hand too soon and he was wide awake again. So the only way for a bit more sleep was to bring him into bed and let him latch on - and there he stayed, latched on for 2 hours! I'm not a fan of this human dummy business, need to nip it in the bud - but the extra dozing at that time of morning is just too tempting.

Cake well done for progressing to shushing instead of feeding to sleep each time - each small step helps!

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