Jo Frost Controlled Timed Crying for 9mo baby

(136 Posts)
DrGarnettsWinterMixture Wed 13-Mar-13 20:01:17

Has anyone used Jo Frost's method of controlled crying, or anything similar please? Link here www.jofrost.com/controlled-timed-crying-technique-ctct/

We're desperate, and need very clear guidelines to follow-I nearly had a car accident this morning after ages spent getting him to sleep yesterday, then multiple wakings in the night (including screaming for more than 45 minutes-he was clean, dry, warm, not hungry or thirsty and had had some calpol, no signs of teething other than being very upset). He starts the evenings in his cot and ends up in our bed when we go up about ten.

He took an hour to go to sleep tonight, with hysterical screaming when he was put in his cot, and has woken up three times already. He isn't ill, I'm really sure of this, he just wants us to be there while he sleeps.

I thought he would naturally work towards more time in cot, less in our bed and learn to settle himself, but it just seems to be getting worse, and I was so tired this morning I really frightened myself on the motorway-I think I was almost asleep while I was driving and got way closer to someone than I should, then they had to slam on their brakes.

Please help sad

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Wed 13-Mar-13 20:02:37

Forgot to say he has a very good bedtime routine, milk, bath, clean nappy and babygro, then a story and a song. Hasn't needed milk at night for over two months.

nectarini1983 Wed 13-Mar-13 20:57:08

I hear you loud and clear sister! ! Having same problem with my 12 month old son . He starts off in his cot but just wants to sleep in with us....but its got to stop as he grizzles and fidgets all night so none of us sleep! B

Our 3 year old daughter goes to bed like a dream, she would self soothe from a much younger age so never got to these extremes with her. I think it's stemmed from not wanting his crying in the night to wake her up but now I'm worried that if she finds her little brother in our bed every morning that she'll start to feel left out and start playing up too?

I go back to work next week so things have got to change! I know it's our fault for letting it get this bad!!

So if im hijacking your post but was about to post myself when I read yours! maybe we could both try Jo Frost's technique together tomorrow and see how we get on?!?! And anyone else who's in the same boat?

habbibu Wed 13-Mar-13 21:49:44

It's grim, isn't it? Gradual withdrawal was the thing that worked with its - you sit really close the first night, and stay till sound asleep, a wee bit further away the next night, etc etc until you're outside the door. Person not on duty tht night supplies tea and wine.

I did something very similar to Jo's technique, it worked in about 4 days. I did it for naps and bedtime. If he woke during the night we would co-sleep.
At that time, he was having 3 naps a day, so I always made sure the late afternoon nap was a good one so he was 'ready' for bed. For the late afternoon nap we would co-sleep or I'd put him in the sling or buggy and let him sleep 4pm-5pm. Our CC went like this.

Make sure baby is fed, clean nappy, winded etc.
- Say 'night-night daddy' (even when daddy isn't there! Give baby a signal so they know what is coming)
- Take to bedroom, have a cuddle and the same song. put into cot, into sleeping bag and give dummy or teddy if you use one. Say 'it's bedtime now, I'll come and get you soon'.
- Turn off light and leave.
- Baby will cry. Leave for 3 minutes.
- Do a 'check'. Our check involved picking baby up, cuddle, sing song if needed, back into cot with teddy. Always waited until baby was calm before being put back into the cot.
- Leave for 5 minutes
- Baby still crying? Time for another 'check'.
- Repeat for 7 minutes, then every 10 minutes afterwards.

We used to say that if LO cried for more than 30 minutes in total we'd get him up and try again in another hour.

You need to learn the differences between his cries. If your baby is just moaning and grizzling, leave him. If he is screaming his little heart out like his world is ending, ignore the clock and go in. Calm him back down and start again.

Some babies don't like being picked up, it makes them angrier. Other babies don't need a teddy, or a song etc. You know your baby best! Also, try not to let him sleep any more than about 3-4 hours between 7am and 7pm.

The first evening, he cried for about 20 minutes, the second night he cried for about 15 minutes, the 3rd night about 3 minutes (was falling asleep when I went to do the first check!) and on the 4th night he cried for about 30 seconds and slept well.

Also: Get a notebook. Keep track of your baby's sleep patterns for 3 days. See if you can see any patterns. I noticed that when my baby had a good breakfast he woke later than 6am. When you start the 'sleep-training' keep notes again, it helps you to see the progress you're making. Also, write down exactly what your plan is, so it's easy to refer to. Get a stopwatch (on your phone?), I have a count-down timer so it would go off after 3 minutes so I could just get on with the washing up etc and keep myself distracted from the crying.

We did it at 5 months (early I know - serious mental health issues called for it). He is now 10.5 months old, sleeps 10-13 hours straight most nights. Some nights he still wakes, so we co-sleep then.

habbibu Thu 14-Mar-13 14:06:26

Yy to checking cries. Cc was a no go with mine because they screamed up, rather than down, iyswim? Being left, calmed down then left again etc drove them into purple blotchy frenzies, and they work themselves up more and more. So I haven't seen the classic way it works, but that's not to say that some babies might not take to it ok.

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Thu 14-Mar-13 14:26:41

Thanks Visualise, that is great-your checks sound very comforting and reassuring. I've added a stopwatch to my shopping list, and will print off your post to keep us on track!

nectarini, how are you doing? DH and I have decided to go for this (with him in charge and me hiding downstairs, and using Visualise's comfort technique!) but are going to wait for a couple of weeks till we both have some holiday time-if it's awful, it will be good to have the next day(s) off work till we crack it...

habbibu, that is a concern-DS does seem to scream up, but we have to do something, so have decided to give this a two week, absolutely consistent trial and hope it gets us somewhere.

nectarini1983 Thu 14-Mar-13 20:37:59

Well I tried it last night as he woke up at 9 (asleep from 7.30) in his cot so thought id give it a whirl as had dry bum and had a good size dinner and bottle earlier...checked on him after 2, 4, 8, 12 then 16 minutes and 16 minute check he was well away. He did cry quite a lot and kept standing up rattling his cot bars to start with (poor darlin) so had to keep laying him back down which he didn't likebut he gave in eveventually. ...and ended up sleeping with his head at bottom of his cot!

He slept til 2 (which is good as normally he'll be in with us by then fidgeting about like a good un.) I repeated again and by 12 mins he was asleep. He pretty much stayed laying down this time. He slept til 6.30. And wasn't even disturbed by noisy hubby getting up and ready for work at 5.

Tried it tonight after usual bath, bottle, stories, lullabies, cuddles. He was asleep by the 8 min check!!!!!!!

Ill let you know how I get on tonight tomorrow.!

My hubby's letting me get on with it. Im not expecting it to be a breeze but do feel im at least taking control a bit now!

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Fri 15-Mar-13 14:43:51

Wow, that sounds great! Really glad you've got off to such a good start, maybe you'll let me know how it goes tonight?

Quick question-when you do the checks, do you wait till he has settled and is calm again, then leave the room and restart the time?

Good going nectarini!

Sleepyfergus Fri 15-Mar-13 15:52:27

God, I could have written your posts. Dd2 is 8.5mths and co sleeps with me (DH on sofa!). She used to be a model baby, sleeping all the way through but from about 5-6 mths has deteriorated. She'll go down in her cot after usual bath/bf bedtime routine, but is awake 30 mins later. And so on every 30 mins until we give in and DH will take her round the block in the buggy to drop off. Then she can sleep for about 1-2 hours. When she wakes up I take her up to bed with me. She doesn't sleep too badly with me, the odd fidget or bf, on the whole she's pretty still.

We ended up like this as when she started waking we didn't want her cries to wake dd1. They are in sep rooms but next door to one another a d the walls are pretty thin (modern house).

I've been trying to read 'no cry sleep solution' which mentions keeping a sleep diary. I'm trying to find the time to read the bloody thing to see what to do! I like the sound of the routine posted above though. If I can palm dd1 off to the grandparents one weekend, I'm tempted to give it a go. Like a pp, I'm due back at work at beg of April so keen to get it nailed by then <hollow laugh>

If also like to drop the night bf feedings, as it ends up being me doing all the night work, although at least I have the bed! Poor DH on sofa that is too short for him! I guess the key is to get her sleeping in her cot consistently before stopping the feeds. A lot of it is just comfort suckling though, not actual feeding iykwim. She is very clingy to me as a result. Loves her daddy during the day, but only I will do at night else lots of crying!!

Good luck folks, I'll keep on eye on this thread for progress and report back on what we do too. It's nice to know I'm not alone! <sob>

DrGarnetts - if you've waited 3 minutes, gone in and calmed baby, then reset clock to 5 minutes. After each 'check' lengthen the time by 2 minutes (or double the previous time)

If you went in early because baby was screaming then reset to 3 minutes.

Does that make sense?

freelancegirl Fri 15-Mar-13 16:25:44

Watching too as haven't seen Jo Frosts take on it before and also like the way you laid it out too Visualise.

DS is 8 months and hasn't really slept well since about 12 weeks, when for one short week I thought we'd cracked it. We now completely co sleep as it was just too hard to get him back in his cot when we moved it to his own room. I've been thinking of moving the cor back into our room and trying something like the above but not sure whether I should just do it in his own room to save myself repeating the process.

The trouble is that half of me has got used to waking up next to a cute little baby smile. His own cot in his own room now feels like miles away! But it would be wonderful if he could learn to self settle rsrher than feed to brief sleeps. It would also be nice to have an evening bsck as he too wakes up every half hour before we go to bed then on average 2 - 3 short, fed back to sleep wake ups and finally up at 7am.

Please let us know how you get on OP and any others! I'm waiting until after a couple of trips away (and putting it off generally in the vague hope it will solve itself and also as I'll miss him smile )

OneLittleToddleTerror Fri 15-Mar-13 16:34:20

Basically what VisualiseAHouse said. But as she said, every baby is different. Mine can't be left alone for more than 5-7min. By 10min she'd be hysterical. (Basically sobbing so hard you can see her chest heaving, and won't stop even if we picked her up). It's basically recognising and stopping them before they get themselves into a state.

I think it's important to find the maximum limit and it seems none of these website says this. They seem to imply you could double the time forever. DD could go on for hours once she's hysterical.

SleepyFergus - I did the CC first before night weaning, as I was happy to co-sleep and BF on and off throughout the night. The aim of our CC was to get baby into bed without 3 hours of crying/rocking/singing/doing whatever it took to get him to sleep!

Sleepyfergus Fri 15-Mar-13 16:35:27

I too would be lying if I said I wouldn't miss cuddling her, and she does this lovely intense thing of having to have a hand on me (face, chest etc) which is very sweet.

And yes, I too keep hoping that it will just sort itself out!

The trouble is that half of me has got used to waking up next to a cute little baby - haha I'm the same, my LO slept right through (12 hours) for about 2 months, and I really missed waking up next to him! Now, of course, he's gone back to waking up at 4am and we end up co-sleeping smile

OneLittleToddleTerror Fri 15-Mar-13 16:54:09

I coslept until DD was 19 or 20mo. That's why she started being really annoying in bed. Headbutting, moving my arms so she can snuggle up to my chest, poking my face, etc. It's not a problem until it's a problem grin

freelancegirl Fri 15-Mar-13 16:59:18

Co-sleeping was a problem for me at first as DH was against it (annoying how people sometimes can only be aware of one set method touted by the books - ie baby sleeps in cot from 7pm until 7am smile ) but now he is used to it too having been subtley read lots about how positive an experience it can be. I could carry on if i knew one day he would sleep on his own and sleep longer. One day I am sure he will! But do we have to do some sort of (albeit not abandoning them) training.

nectarini1983 Fri 15-Mar-13 19:30:35

Can't believe how many people actually have problems with their baby sleeping. I'm sure in real life people exaggerate what a good sleeper they've got!!!!!

Anyway...my latest. ... little man slept 8.30-3 last night! !!! Amazing 6 hours....normally don't get that much sleep in one hit unless kids have gone to my parents for the night he he! When he woke at 3 I went and did a check and a 'sshhh' stroke and then checked again after 2 mins, he was asleep before had to do 4 min check. He woke up 30 mins later and did same again, he'd settled before 8 min check was due. Hes not full on balling either, more of a moany cry and hes not standing up in cot, stays laying down. He slept til 7.

Tonight. ...usual routine and asleep before 4 min check due!!!

So glad ive tried this. I do miss having a snuggle but desperately need more sleep than have been getting since he was born. And hubby was starting to get narked about being kicked in the back all night and woken constantly with the grizzles then going to work.

Will update tomo with tonight's progress.

Good luck to anyone else going through the same!!

SanityClause Fri 15-Mar-13 19:42:37

What I did was this.

I put DD to bed, said goodnight, then stayed in the room, not interacting with her at all. After a while, I would say, I'm just going out, and I'll be straight back. And that is what I would do.

And when I came back, no interacting again. (I would just sort of faff around a bit.) then, I'd say I'm just going into my room (which was right next door) and I'll be straight back. And that's what I'd do. And then more faffing, and gradually going out for a little longer each time, but always doing exactly what I said I would do.

In he end I would say, I'll just be downstairs and I'll look in on you later, and I would go out.

After a couple of weeks of such faffery, she was going to sleep on her own.

I did similar if she woke in the night.

(I have three DC, but I remember the first one most clearly - maybe she was the one who I had most trouble with!)

seeker Fri 15-Mar-13 19:49:16

If co sleeping works, then why not just keep doing it- there's no law which says th have to be in their own beds, you know. Co sleeping isn't giving in, or failing or anything like that- it's just doing something millions of people throughout the world do.

Whatever gets the most people the most sleep.

TheSecondComing Fri 15-Mar-13 19:59:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker Fri 15-Mar-13 20:04:29

Absolutely, she has had enough- but she is trying not to co sleep.

LynetteScavo Fri 15-Mar-13 20:09:59

Gradual withdrawal worked with DS1. At 9 months if I tried to leave him in his cot he would immediately be physically sick with anxiety, so it was our only choice.

This whole timing thing sounds horrendous. sad

That is true seeker - but I think for most of the posters here, co-sleeping <isn't> working, that's why they're here!

I do love co-sleeping, but OH doesn't. He works crazy long shifts etc, so while I can put up with being kicked in the groin and having fingers poked up my nose during the night, OH can't. I can nap/rest during the day, OH can't. When me the LO co-sleep we do so on the spare bed in the baby's room.

Lynette - it can be hard. It's not horrendous though. If my baby ever made noises like he was going to be sick, or his crying was starting to reach 'fever-pitch'. His 'crying to sleep' was more like gentle moaning and whining than 'WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME???' crying. Gradual withdrawal didn't work for us because LO would just get really really upset if I sat there. His crying was actually less when I wasn't in the room.

Nectarini - you're doing ace! Have you noticed an improvement in your LO's mood during the day?

Sorry that should read 'if my baby ever made noises like he was going to be sick, or his crying was starting to reach 'fever-pitch', I would be with him in a shot!'

nectarini1983 Sat 16-Mar-13 14:52:30

Hello. Last night....He slept til 10.30 (from 7.30) and after falling asleep before 8 min check he slept through til 7 this morning! !!!!!!!! First time in a year that ive had a night sleep with him being at home! Although I did stir around 4 and listen at the bedroom door and could hear him purring away!

So game on for tonight. ...

Visualise...He's always been such a happy baby in the day, was just a night terror ha! So he's still just as jolly but the last two days hes only had one nap rather than two.

Hubby and I just amazed he slept that long as when he was in with us he would wake every hour or so which meant we did too...

To be honest he was crying more when I tried gradual withdrawal method as he would get so frustrated that I was there and he could see me but was not picking him up if that makes sense? But never been anywhere near to being sick. I think he is reassured by the checks that he hasn't been abandoned but just decides its not worth crying as I only come in and stroke him.

It seems to be working for us and our little man anyway....having tried and failed at everything else and after accepting that he's not just gonna out grow this.

How's everyone else getting on?

Sleepyfergus Sat 16-Mar-13 16:20:08

Nectarini, that sounds amazing! grin I'd say you've cracked it! I bet everyone is benefitting from getting a better nights sleep.

I'm defo going to give it a try. I was going to wait until we could get dd1 to stay with the GP, but if we pop her to sleep in our bed, she could sleep with DH and I could sleep in her bed and deal with dd2. That way, if dd2 cries, it's less likely to wake dd1 as bedrooms are opp sides of the upstairs landing. I just have to sit down and talk it through with DH so we can tackle this on a united front.

Your experience sounds so promising though! Keep posting and let us know how it's going!!

As for co-sleeping, I guess if I wasn't going back to work, if we had a bugger bed and everyone slept okay then we did give it a shot. But I need my sleep, and DH needs to stop sleeping in the sofa! I have to admit I did think co-sleeping was a bit 'woo' and earth motherly (not me at all!) but having done it, albeit not through choice, I totally understand why people do it. Logistically, it's just not a long term thing for us.

Sleepyfergus Sat 16-Mar-13 16:21:01

Yikes, bugger bed??!! Don't much like the sound if that!

a BIGGER bed. Obviously!

Excellent job! I bet you're feeling a lot more human after all that sleep smile

I haven't actually tried CC throughout the night....I might give it a shot now seeing as you're having so much success. To be fair, LO has never been that bad at night, he just used to try for hours before falling asleep. He's never been one to regularly wake every hour or anything. If he does wake in the night (probably happens about 2-4 times a week) I just get into the spare bed and co-sleep with him.

nectarini1983 Sat 16-Mar-13 18:18:53

Mine has been a little wotsit a night, so disruptive that something had to give. We had dubbed him "the night terror!".

And obviously as lovely as it is to have a lovely baby to wake up to....it is a passion killer ha!

Meant to say that his wake up cries the last few nights since I decided to try this haven't woken my husband or daughter. He just kind of moans but he is still asleep really.

Will update tomorrow with tonight's progress.

Thanks so much to DrGarnetts for posting link to Jo Frost website, it was just the structured approach I needed as winging it by myself bit scary and unsuccessful!

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Sat 16-Mar-13 18:53:21

Wow, nectarini, that sounds amazing, well done! Hope tonight goes well for you smile

I'm sad that our co-sleeping time is coming to an end-I've loved it, and it felt like the right thing to do while he was very small (although it really freaked DH out at first!) but DS is now very active, waking every hour, wants to crawl as soon as he wakes up and we think his cot is the safest place for him, and will give all of us better quality sleep. We have discussed putting our mattress on the floor, but then he would still need one of us there to keep him safe (window latches are very low, radiator gets hot very quickly, our room is next to stairs both up and down, and across the hall from the bathroom etc). We also haven't had sex for four months

Just waiting for the holidays to start so we can get through a few very disturbed nights without having to worry about commuting the next day!

Thanks for all of your tips and advice, and wishing everyone luck at getting more sleep-I'd love to hear any progress updates, and will probably use this thread when we get started to track my progress, if that's ok smile

whenwilltherebegoodnews Sun 17-Mar-13 08:14:00

Thanks for this thread, going to try Jo Frost method tomorrow night, I'm at the end of my tether sad

DS (8 months) has never slept great but now is waking hourly from 1am. He just gurns and I can shhh him back over, but its every bloody hour. Then he screams at 5am, eventually waking for the day at 6.

He goes down at night no bother, self settles for his naps, its just the middle of the night. I'm exhausted and I'm sure its contributing to my 3 year old's awful behaviour at the moment.

Will start tomorrow night when DH isn't working and will report back.

Loislane78 Sun 17-Mar-13 09:30:33

May I join smile. Started a thread last night but think this one may be my answer.

DD is 7 mo and likes to wake every 1-2 hours after an initial 3 hours (she didn't used to). Not always hungry, not sick etc. just likes snuggles and wants in with us. She wakes even when co-sleeping though which is why I'm posting, not because I have a problem night feeding or cuddling.

Last night I let her grizzle for few mins, re-settled with dummy and left. She lasted 30 mins then did it again. Left her grizzle for another few mins, re-settled. Woke after 1.5 hrs. It was now 12 so I fed her just in case and she went 3 hours. At 3 we had grizzlies on/off for 30 mins (which isn't like her after a re-settle) so I fed again at 3.30 but she didn't take much. One more mini resettle at 5.30 and woke just before 7.

I'm listening to the different noises and think she really only needs 1 feed so would like to stretch that to the early hrs like she used to but will have to go gradually i guess as at 7 mo it's hard to tell. How do you get then to drop night feeds (she's BF btw).

Does this sound ok? I know she's younger than some of your LOs but she didn't actually 'cry' last night so I don't think I'm being harsh. She just kinda shouts and does that humming thing babies with dummies do.

TIA

Loislane78 Sun 17-Mar-13 09:41:13

Sorry just to add she doesn't feed to sleep and goes down awake at night no problem and is usually ok for naps during the day. Feel like I've tried most things from no cry sleep solution but having no effect.

nectarini1983 Sun 17-Mar-13 10:03:03

Id say the more the merrier!

Loislane...with my daughter who's now three, I started giving her water in the night rather than breast milk and she soon decided it wasn't worth waking up for! I think she only did it for a cuddle really as she was well fed and watered in the day. My son has been different story as I stopped breast feeding at 3 months. Ithink he was just waking up because he knew we'd tend to his every need and id give in and snuggle him right in close to me...til the next hour when he'd do it again, or sot uo and then fall on me or hubby...nothing like getting head butted in the night! He was totally calling the shots and had us dancing a merry jig every night!

Ive found doing this less much less disruptive than hed been before I tried anything this constructive! I kept making excuses..ill do it on a weekend/ when dd away/on such and such a date. ..and putting off trying but glad I went for it the other night as id just had enough! Had even tried sleeping on his bedroom floor last weekend with my hand in his cot but that made him more hysterical than this has....and the next day I looked like id slept on the floor! !

Last night....he was looking sleepy while I was reading him and dd a story so I just laid him in his cot and he didn't make a fuss at all. Just got himself comfy, laid still and went to sleep! ! Before Wednesday he'd have screamed blue murder if I'd put him in his cot like that.

He slept til about 1.30 from 7.30 and then was back to sleep before 12 minute check. Then he slept til 6.45 from about 2.

I'd say to others.....just go for it. A few nights of tears is worth it to start to feel like youre getting your evenings (and your bed!!) Back! Was actually quite nice to have a cuddle with the oh without a little invader in the middle ha!

Everyone keep posting!

nectarini1983 Sun 17-Mar-13 10:07:14

Loislane....sorry meant to say, on Jo Frost website think it says that it's fine as long as baby getting food and milk all day. So 7 m should be fine. ...if id have found this 6 months ago id have done it then and prob looked a lot better for it than a yearof sleepless nights (or longer if you count frequent night trips to the loo while pregnant!! )

Loislane78 Sun 17-Mar-13 10:35:44

Thanks nectarini she feeds at least every 3 hrs in the day plus food (some is going in). I know if I let her she'd go 4 hrs+ in the day between feeds so I feel like going 5 at night and stretching it out is reasonable, plus she will hopefully wake less now anyway.... smile

I night-weaned LO at about 7 months old, he was fully established on solids, and being mix-fed during the day (depending on my mood!)

I always used to do a 'dream-feed' at 10/11pm before I went to bed myself. I noticed that he was taking less at breakfast time at about 7 months, so when he woke in the night one time I gave him formula instead, just to see how much he drunk (less than 1oz!). After that I only offered water between 11pm and 7am. Took about 3 nights and he stopped waking for feeds - but still woke for cuddles, which I'm not bothered about...yet!

Once he'd done a week of no feeding between 11-7, I dropped the dream-feed at 10.30pm, and then he was BF and FF on demand until 8 months when we began to cut down the BF. He was mostly FF by that point anyway, only having a BF first thing and occasionally during the day if he was very tired or grumpy.

nectarini1983 Mon 18-Mar-13 15:22:17

Last night.... (night 5). Fell asleep in cot by himself at 7.15, no tears for second night now. Slept soundly til about 3, think only reason he woke is because nappy had leaked so his pj bottoms were wet. He was still very much asleep so changed bum quickly without making eye contact then did a 'ssshhh' stroke as per normal checks and went out. Little grizzle so did same again (chevk and ssshhh) after 2 mins and he was asleep before 4 minute check due. Then slept til 7! :-).

How's everyone else getting on?

freelancegirl Mon 18-Mar-13 15:42:58

That's great going nectarini! I'm watching with great interest still put putting off doing anything for a few weeks until after a couple of trips and getting far too attached to co sleeping

Sleepyfergus Mon 18-Mar-13 18:46:16

Brilliant Nectarini!

We're starting tonight..........wish us luck!

nectarini1983 Mon 18-Mar-13 20:27:57

freelance....enjoy the last night cuddles (kicks and fidgets!) Before you decide it's crunch time!

Sleepyfeegus....good luck! Let us know how it goes. And just think, by the weekend you should be over the worst!!!

Loislane78 Mon 18-Mar-13 21:04:22

Ohhhhh that's good nectarini you must feel like a new woman smile

So reporting in for duty:
Last night (day 2) we had the usual wake up after 3 hrs but straight back to sleep after resettle. Fed at 11 when she grizzled again. Resettle at 1, fed at 3 then not a peep until just before 7.

I think I have 2 problems;
- been unsure on night weaning but now know I need to stop the 3am feed as not v hungry at breakfast
- dummy use? When she wakes, if I pop dummy in and snug her up in a blanket again she can literally be out like a light 2 mins later but how to stop her waking up!!!??? Feel like I'm not really doing CC as there isn't really any crying just a lot of waking up.

Let's see what night 3 has in store...

Sweet dreams everyone smile

Nectarini - I'm so glad to hear this is working out for you! Sleep is a truly wonderful thing. Mine actually slept from 6.30pm till 8am! I got woken by OH's alarm and we actually managed to get some morning snuggle time before the baby woke ;)

Lois - Try giving water or just the dummy at 3am instead of feeding for a couple of nights and see how that works out.
Is she waking because she's looking for her dummy? I sewed my LO's dummy to his bedtime rabbit so he could find it easier. Something like the Binky Buddy will help her find her dummy at night. How old is your baby Lois?

Sleepyfergus Tue 19-Mar-13 07:59:14

Morning all. Well night 1 done, here's what happened.

7pm after bath, cuddles, bf put her down and started the timed checks. She was NOT happy. Was standing up at the end of her cot each time I went in. I did 2,4,8,16 min checks, each time picking her up giving a wee pat and shush, then laying her down, a wee stroke and ash before leaving the room. After the 16 min check I was going to do a 32 min check, but at 26 mins she was asleep. So all in all, it took an hour for her to put herself to sleep. She didn't cry constantly, the mental cries changed to annoyed cries, to ok cries, to sight moaning.

She slept for 2 hours, so at midnight I gave her a feed which was almost like a dream feed. She fed properly and efficiently from both sides. Before when we co slept she would snack all night just as and when she felt like it.

Popped her down and never made the 2 min check as she was asleep. She woke just after 3 and again, I again, i never had to do the 2 min check. And that was her until 7.30am this morning!

So a good start apart from the hour getting to sleep at the start. It wasn't as hard as I thought listening to her. Concentrating on her cries and the stopwatch sort of helps.

Roll on tonight, wonder what that'll hold......!

That sounds like proper 'crying down', as some experts call it Fergus. Sounds like it's working out well. I think an hour is great for the first night! Let us know how you get on this evening.

Dreamfeeds are brilliant, we used to do one until LO was about 7 months I think, then I realised that the dreamfeed was actually affecting the rest of his night's sleep - by that time, the feed was very small and normally only one sided. So, once you see that baby is not taking much at the dreamfeed regularly, try dropping it. When he wasn't taking much at the dreamfeed, he'd wake at 2am and 4am, but when I dropped it, he slept right through.

Indith Tue 19-Mar-13 10:19:37

I've co slept from birth with my one year old but it doesn't bloody work. He fusses around and then starts crying, roots for the breast but gets pissed off if milk comes out because he doesn't want milk. So then I get yelled at by him for daring to offer the breast to sooth him. So dh ends up having to walk him round and round until he goes to sleep. Not great. I have no idea what it feels like to sleep for more than 2 hours at a time. Even 2 hours is a great luxury that I celebrate. Lately he has started spending all night nipple sucking. Not latched on for milk but just nipple sucking which fricking well hurts me but if I stop him he yells. If I hand him over to dh to comfort he yells even more and throws himself out of dh's arms back to me.

I would LOVE to spend a peaceful night co sleeping with a couple of half wakings for milk. But it doesn't work.

FantasticDay Tue 19-Mar-13 10:27:24

Did this when dd was about 7 months, with many reservations. I slept downstairs feeling like the world's worst mum (still breastfeeding so leaking milk everywhere). Dh went to cot every 5 and then 15 minutes and said 'Night,night darling. It's time to go to sleep now'. DD stayed (howling!) awake until about 3 the first night, woke two or three times the second and slept right through the third. No reservations with ds - started routine when he was about 5 months. They are now aged 5 and 6 and great little sleepers.

RooneyMara Tue 19-Mar-13 10:35:34

Indith - it sounds familiar. Mine's only 10 weeks but he does the rooting then crying thing sometimes - I think they want to suck, have you tried your little finger?

Or bite - I don't know if I am right but I think they use their mouths for three things at least - drinking, if it isn't that then wind (gastro-colic reflex, it stimulates their bowel if they suck something) and if it isn't that, then teething, for obvious reasons.

I am simplistic about babies grin

RooneyMara Tue 19-Mar-13 10:37:04

btw dummies are meant to be good for this stuff. I haven't ever managed to get my babies to keep them in their mouths though.

Indith Tue 19-Mar-13 11:24:43

Haha Rooney he has too many teeth to suck a finger! He just bites. He sucked his thumb (and was quite a good sleeper) til he was around 4 months hmm. I get tempted to try a dummy but......

Oh well, he starts with the child minder next week (having so far yelled at her for 2 settling in sessions) so he will I assume figure out a non nipple related way of soothing himself and once he has settled in with her we can try night weaning again. Last attempt curtailed due to his getting a stinking great cold.

RooneyMara Tue 19-Mar-13 12:49:42

Oh God well good luck smile

last time I had one of these it took me MONTHS to realise I was allowed to give him calpol for his teeth instead of being awake all night grin

I'm a bit rubbish
all the best x

nectarini1983 Tue 19-Mar-13 16:57:41

Sleepy....hopefully that'll be the worst nifht amd tomo should be a bit easier.

Last night (night 6). Fell asleep in cot by himself at 7.45ish with no crying. Slept til 6.30!!!!!!

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Tue 19-Mar-13 19:00:25

I'm simultaneously dreading and looking forward to next week, when we'll be starting our sleep training with DS grin some amazing success stories here!

Loislane78 Tue 19-Mar-13 21:35:50

So great to hear the positive stories and in quite a short space of time too smile

Last night:

Put down and asleep instantly with no checks
Dream feed at 10.30
Mini grizzle at 1 so popped dummy in
3am feed
5.30-6 grizzlies and I refuse (am too lazy) to start my day that early so popped her in with us and she 'laid in' until 8! Probably shouldn't have done that, oh well.

Gonna see what happens tonight then will really need to toughen up to prepare myself for weekend night weaning and possible dummy issues. Wish me luck!

whenwilltherebegoodnews Wed 20-Mar-13 07:39:01

Started last night. he cried for 2+ hrs from 11pm, surely that's not right?? He then woke at 5.30 and I couldn't face it again so brought him in with us. so hard sad Does it get easier?

Lois - that sounds exactly like us at about 6-7 months! We still do the popping in with us until 7-8 if LO wakes about 6. No way am I starting my day at 6am!!

Whenwilltherebegoodnews - Did you put him to bed at 11pm? How old is he? Was he just woken for a feed? Your bedtime routine should be about 1-2 hours long (depending on age etc of baby), with the aim to have baby in bed anywhere between 6pm and 8pm. Our 11 month old has a 2 hour bedtime routine now, and is normally in bed between 6.30pm and 7pm. He is very very rarely awake past 7pm.

whenwilltherebegoodnews Wed 20-Mar-13 10:12:58

He goes to bed at 7, self settles well and has a good routine. He wakes randomly in the night and takes forever to settle. He's not hungry, ill or teething. He also settles great for naps. So we are at a loss as to what to do sad

whenwilltherebegoodnews Wed 20-Mar-13 10:13:28

PS he's 8 months

nectarini1983 Wed 20-Mar-13 10:16:18

Whenwilltherebegoodnews....that is rough going. How old is your little one? I dont feel I'm in a position to advise anyone on what to do, can only comment on what mine have done! Does baby know what's coming ie following bath, milk, stories, lullabies, cuddles etc

Night 7, settled in cot and asleep by 7.30 after a bit of fussing getting comfy. Woke and grizzled about 9.30pm, one check and ssshhh stroke then slept til 7.

Sleepyfergus Wed 20-Mar-13 11:32:39

Whenwilltherebegoodnews- hmm, don't know what to advise, how long has he been doing this random night waking?

Louis - sounds good so far! Agree with the early starts, although once I go back to work (couple of weeks) a 6am start is going to be the norm in our house!

Nectarine - I'd say you've cracked it!

Last night (night 2)
Put down at 6.50pm, was asleep before 8min check. She slept for 2.5 hours then woke, but That was down to a pooey nappy. Reckon she's starting teething again, the top front ones :-(

So quick change and she was out before 8 min check. Slept for an hour. It's now 11pm. Did 2,4,8,16 min check and she was not happy. Then it struck me that she was prob getting hungry. So aborted the checks and gave her a feed. After feed, she was asleep just after 4min check. I went back in to pop her blanket on and she woke briefly but then straight back to sleep. And that was her straight through to 6.30am.

I have an issue at the moment with what to dress her in and covers. She's in a vest and baby gro, and for the first half of the night, her room is warm enough that I just pop her down as is. For her crying last night, most of them she did sitting up (as opposed to standing the night before), so it's pointless putting the blanket on her. When I do the lay down and shush, she's immediately sitting up crossly! When I went back in to pop her blanket on last night, she was on her knees and tummy scrunched up against the end of the cot. She had literally fallen asleep mid cry and just slumped I guess! She woke briefly, so I laid her down and put the blanket on but I think she prob squirmed it off, so I have no idea if she actually had the blanket on at all. I guess she would have woken if she was cold though....

Eventually we may go back to gro bags if she learns to just lie and go to sleep when put down for the night.

nectarini1983 Wed 20-Mar-13 13:48:01

Sounds a bit better than first night sleepy.

I had same prob with cover kicking off. So since night 2 I've put my little one in his sleeping bag again but not zipped it up so he doesn't trip on it if he stands up in his cot or end up all twisted up when hwr wriggles about sometimes. He's wearing vest and pjs and socks since night 3 as his feet were cold!

Whenwilltherebegoodnews - what are his naps like during the day? I noticed that when my LO slept badly during the day, he wakes more frequently throughout the night. At 8 months, you're aiming for around 3-4 hours nap a day (maybe spread over 2-3 naps).

Sleepy - We always use a sleeping bag on top of a vest and babygro. I managed to find a bag that didn't have poppers on the shoulders, just one zip up the front which means that he can't escape from it. I put a blanket (tucked in tightly on either side) on top if it's a bit colder.

whenwilltherebegoodnews Wed 20-Mar-13 18:33:18

Yeah naps definitely affect night time. He's only had 2 x 45 mins today shock

Loislane78 Wed 20-Mar-13 19:37:39

whenwilltherebegoodnews (good book BTW smile) sounds quite similar to how my 7 mo DD can sometimes be. 45 mins daytime napper, sometimes goes 1.5 hrs but will happily do 2hrs + if daytime co-sleeping. Regular night wakings for no apparent reason (except perhaps dummy issues for us).

I found daytime nap training (still ongoing) much easier than nighttime - not as tired, worried about waking everyone up etc.

GL to us all for tonight (I wanna sleep at nectarini's house now smile)

whenwilltherebegoodnews - I would try getting him to nap longer in the day. I found that hard, but managed to get it to work after a week or so.

Try and make the second nap (I'm presuming around midday-2pm?) the longer one if you can. When baby wakes at 45 minutes, you can either give him 2 minutes like you would with the CC routine, and then go in to settle. OR at the 45 minute mark (it was more like 40 minutes for my LO) be ready and waiting by the door - as soon as you hear him stir, get in there quickly (and quietly!!) put your hand on him/give dummy and try to help him through the light sleep back into deep sleep. This can take about 15 minutes sometimes. Sometimes I used to just pick LO up straight away and get straight into bed with him, counting to 300. If he wasn't near or actually asleep by that point, I'd get him up. It's hard work, but I'm pretty sure if you can get him napping 1.5-2hours you will get better sleep at night.

whenwilltherebegoodnews Thu 21-Mar-13 06:45:56

Night 2: he woke at 4.45 and it took about an hour, although not constant screaming. He then woke just after 6 for the day (different cries!) which is fine.

He normally naps well, 45 mins in the morning then a couple of hours after lunch but is at the mercy of my DD's routine and sometimes is in and out of the car which isn't great for him.

I feel we are making progress though, thanks for all the suggestions smile

Sounds much better goodnews - So he slept from bedtime till 4.45am (10 hours?), that is brilliant!

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Thu 21-Mar-13 10:18:25

We ended up starting controlled timed crying last night, instead of waiting until next week-DS went down in his cot at 6 as usual, was asleep (had his music mobile on and I was in the room, in the dark, not saying anything) within ten minutes, then woke up at 9. And wouldn't settle, was miserable, shouty, rubbing his eyes and looked shattered. We checked his nappy was clean, that he was warm enough, he wasn't poorly (no teething signs, or any other kind of pain) so we thought as he was so tired and unhappy, we might as well start then-quite a change for us, as usually one of us would have gone to bed at that point and had him in with us, and cuddled him to sleep.

So, got the stopwatch ready, kissed him and said night night, lay him down in his cot and left the room, and gave it two minutes, then went in, lay him down again, hand on his back gently so he calmed down, then left as soon as he was calm. I did it slightly differently to the Jo Frost timings blush because he was so upset, so I did 2 minutes x 2, then 4 minutes x 2, then 6 minutes x 2, then he was asleep. He was very upset, and needed a nappy change during the timed bit, so we did that in the dark, no eye contact, just shushed him gently. Then he threw up sad (he does this sometimes when he is absolutely furious) so clean sheet and sleeping bag, again in the dark, and then he finally went to sleep after the next lot of 6 minutes. So we never got to the 8 minutes out of the room point, but it took about 25-30 minutes, and he slept in his cot until 1, then came in with us.

Is this really pathetic, to be doing it in stages? My hope is that he will learn about sleeping in his cot by himself quickly, then start to sleep for longer than 3.5 hours at a time, so he would stay in his cot later and later, then eventually all night. I can't bring myself to have him crying for half an hour at one in the morning-it's not fair on the neighbours, and I do feel that we've made some progress-any thoughts? Going from very interrupted sleep 6-9, and one of us going to bed at 9 with him, it feels like a step forward that he has managed 6.5 hours in his cot!

nectarini1983 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:52:30

Sounds a really good start. Its very hard to start with but it does pay dividends and quickly.

I stop at 16 min check but only had to repeat that once on night 1.

I decided to go cold turkey and do cc in the night too else he'd have quickly sussed that if he wakes he could come in with us as hed been doing so it wouldn't have solved my problem and I didnt want to drag it out longer than necessary.

Night 8...slept thru again 7.30-6.30.

I feel almost ready for work tomorrow. .....sob sob!!!!

Loislane78 Thu 21-Mar-13 11:10:17

Sounds alright to me DrGarnett - a few nights getting used to his cot and you mentally getting ready for it; although I also agree that going cold turkey gets the best results and not giving a mixed message why I'm chickening out of dummy removal.

Not sleeping through here but still progress:

Down at 18.30 (was knackered) no crying
Woke at 12 and fed (this is a 2+ hr improvement)
Grizzle at 3 so resettled with dummy (took 1 min and used to demand feed now as well)
Woke at 4.30 and at 4.45 gave a feed (both sides so was hungry)
Woke at 5.50 and cos I'm naughty brought her in with us - another lie in until 8

So all in all not too bad and much better than before smile

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Thu 21-Mar-13 14:42:01

Thanks nectarini and Loislane, am dreading tonight-I wish we could just be a week in the future, with the hardest bit out of the way! Night 8 obviously went amazingly well for you nectarini-hope your return to work goes well smile

Loislane, that is really impressive to go from 18.30 to midnight, I'd love to get to that point!

Good luck for tonight everyone, fingers crossed it goes smoothly for all of us and our sleep refusing babies!

freelancegirl Thu 21-Mar-13 16:47:12

Such good progress nectarini! And good going dr garnet too. I can completely relate to the dreading it. I spend all nap times (having fed DS to sleep on my bed and not daring to move in case he wakes) googling sleep issues and am creating a master list of things I intend to try after holidays etc but will probably keep putting it off. Think of it this way - if you persevere you'll have a baby STTN whilst i am still at square one smile

Sleepyfergus Thu 21-Mar-13 17:05:32

DrGarnett - I think that's a good start! It's so hard for everyone, and a big upheaval for the babies who have got used to snuggling up with us but this does seem to work and we'll all be reaping the dividends in no time.

LoisLane - great too re the initial sleep!

Nectarini - wonderful stuff! Good luck going back to work. I'm returning the week after next, trying not to think about it too much tbh!

Last night (night 3)
Put down at 6.50pm. Did 2,4 min check and she was asleep before 8 min check. Still quite angry at being put down and sshed, but less so every night but I think I'll have to do the 2, 4 min check for a while. But that I can live with. She slept 5 hours and then up at midnight for a feed. Took from both sides, and again, a good proper 'dream feed' like feed.
Popped her down at 12.20am and had to do 2,4 and 8 min check and then she slept through til 5.30am. I think I might have rushed her towards the end of her feed so she was quite cross and held out til just after 8 min check.

Without wishing to jinx thus, I'm amazed at the results so far. I'm so glad I found this thread and the link to Jo Frost. We were going to try some form of sleep training but who knows if something else would have been as good.

DrGarnettsWinterMixture Thu 21-Mar-13 18:42:18

That sounds great, Sleepyfergus! Well done grin

freelancegirl-how old is your DS? I'm only on night 2, but if he is the right sort of age, I'd recommend going for it-just bite the bullet! We were determined to put it off till next week due to holiday, and last night was so awful we got started, and we've had a much easier night 2 already.

So-took him up not long after 6, put him in his cot, sang some songs and put his music mobile on for a few minutes till he was nice and calm, then left the room. Did 2 minutes, then 4, then 6, and he was asleep before the 8 minute check. Much quieter tonight than yesterday, still some shouting and screaming, but there were long breaks between the shouting (there were NO breaks yesterday!) and he was much quicker to calm-I literally went in and put my hand on his back and helped him lie down if he was sitting up. All round, much quicker and far less stressful than yesterday, which is great.

DH is on duty for whenever he wakes next-am hoping for 10.00, but anything later than that would be amazing! We'll do timed crying again and see how we go. Wish us luck!

Loislane78 Thu 21-Mar-13 19:16:47

This is great; we're all making some progress smile

What I'm finding most helpful is feeling like I'm doing something constructive that's hopefully making a difference. There's nothing worse than being sleep deprived, dreading the night ahead and feeling totally helpless.

Thanks for the thread and telling me what do to smile

justabigdisco Thu 21-Mar-13 19:23:38

She starts by saying 'this is not the Ferber technique' and then goes on to describe the Ferber technique, passing it off as her own!
Don't worry OP, we did it at 7 mo as I was going back to work. 2 bad nights, 2 ok ones and now she sleeps 12 hours and is not psychologically traumatised! Don't listen to anyone who says it is bad because it bloody works like MAGIC!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 21-Mar-13 19:41:31

Am desperate for this to go well, DH is out tomorrow night so I'd really like to stay positive and have a nice and restful evening tomorrow!

Thanks justabigdisco, glad it worked for you (thought Ferber was no touching to comfort? but haven't read much on this, so probably wrong!) A baby sleeping for 12 hours sounds like bliss, I'd consider 6 a MASSIVE achievement at the moment...

Lois, this is the most popular thread I've ever had on MN, think there's a lot of us out there who need direction-that helpless feeling is awful, so I'm really glad the thread is helping other people too smile

nectarini1983 Thu 21-Mar-13 19:57:06

Lois....sounds like it's going to plan. I found doing it actually less stressful than the stressing about how to deal with him and the no sleeping!

DrG...this thread has been a godsend to me. It definitely works though. I could kiss Jo Frost!!

Just having a glass of wine while kids in bed asleep....like a proper grown up!

Well done every one! So many of us in the same sleep deprived boat now seeing light at the end of the tunnel!

whenwilltherebegoodnews Thu 21-Mar-13 21:16:34

I found doing it actually less stressful than the stressing about how to deal with him and the no sleeping!

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I was really down thinking I would forever be sleep deprived. Now I have a plan I am much calmer and coping better during the day.

Good luck tonight everyone.

Wow - so much progress here!! All these babies sleeping, what are you lot going to do with your evenings now...?

Don't worry if you don't follow the 'rules' exactly - just be consistent when adapting them. Don't do CC for a couple of nights, then chicken out on the third night. Always make sure the time you leave them gets gradually longer and longer. It's up to you (and your baby's personality) whether you comfort with a 'shh pat', a cuddle, a song, a dummy, a lullaby machine etc. Do what works for your baby.

Couldn't agree more about the whole cold turkey thing. When LO was 5 months (just before we started CC) I went cold turkey on rocking him to sleep. I was happy to hold and sing to him while he dropped off, but my back was not enjoying 2 hours of constant rocking!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 21-Mar-13 22:01:24

And....he's woken up, DH is on the stopwatch, up to 6 minutes now between checks, I hope he goes to sleep soon poor thing, he is so tired sad and I can't go to bed until he is fast asleep!

justabigdisco Thu 21-Mar-13 22:40:40

Ah right DrG, I misread it. Fair enough. Although, I think picking up/putting down would have made her cry harder to be honest!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Fri 22-Mar-13 08:21:45

Morning all <yawns, hands round coffee>

So...babyG stayed in his cot ALL NIGHT for the first time ever! He woke up at 10, 12.30 and 2.30, and took about 20 minutes of timed crying to settle each time, but we got there, and he didn't wake up until almost 6.50. So, still having the night wakings but quite pleased with night 2, especially as we didn't bring him into bed with us at all.

How did everyone else get on?

Good going DrGarnett - babyG will be starting to 'get the picture' now. Keep going, you're doing well!!

Sleepyfergus Fri 22-Mar-13 15:49:40

That's great DrGarnett! Small steps eh! All night in the cot is fab, I totally agree. I can cope with the night wakes in the short term too

Here's our last night:-
Put down 6.50pm. Did 4(forgot to check stopwatch!) and another 4 min check. Asleep before 8 min check. Slept for approx 4 hours. Up for a feed at 11pm. Back down 11.20pm. Asleep before 2 min check. Slept for 2hrs 45mins before waking with a mega pooey/ wet nappy and baby gro. Changed and gave her a little feed as she was cold from getting changed and a bit distressed. Put down 2.30am. Did 2,4,min check. Asleep before 8 min check. Slept until 5.30am (and I brought her in with me for a bit as it was just too early!)

So aside from the nappy change, I'm more than happy. Reckon she's teething her top two front teeth at the mo as she is grumpy and drooling like a tap, and the pooey nappies have been unbelievable. She's actually a wee trooper dealing with this sleep training on top it all, bless her!

Here's to our continuing cot sleepers tonight!

Babybeesmama Fri 22-Mar-13 16:05:06

I also have a very wakeful 6 month old - every 2 hours mostly confused. I'm so tired. Tried a bit of gradual retreat last night but may have to use CC. X

nectarini1983 Fri 22-Mar-13 18:14:20

Well done sleepy and DrG....sounds like going in the right direction!

Night 9 (I think, lost count now!). Asleep at 7 , stirred and checked on at 9 with in ssshhh pat and then slept til 6!

Me and kids up and ready to leave at 6.40....an hour early! So had time for a leisurely cuppa and brek which I hadn't expected! Work was......work but at least I didn't fall asleep at my desk ha!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Fri 22-Mar-13 18:26:31

First day back is the worst, nectarini, glad you had a relaxed start to your day!

Welcome Babybeesmama-constant waking is so draining, isn't it? We seem to be making progress, I think this method is considered ok for babies of 6 months and over, but you might want to just double check the link at the beginning if you're thinking about giving it a try!

Night 3-babyG had his 2 and 4 minute checks, was asleep before the 6 minute one. DH has gone out, so I am hoping for a good few hours of properly sleeping baby!

Sleepyfergus Fri 22-Mar-13 18:30:16

Maybe have a glass of vino DrG!!! I think I will tonight.....been a long time since I dared without an interruption!!

Yes - CC is not reccomended under 6 months. I did do it at 5 months - but it was an extreme situation (PND and psychosis), so something needed to be done.

Alligatorpie Sat 23-Mar-13 06:59:53

I am going to try this tonight. Dd is 9 months and while cosleeping has worked for us in the past, she is now very active and I cannot sleep in bed with her any more. We have a tiled floor in the bedroom and if she fell out of bed, she could really hurt herself.
We didnt use the crib for dd1, so havent bought one for dd2. I do have a travel cot and she will be going in their for a bit, until we get a crib. But she hates it, and screams when she goes in it. It is going to be a long night.

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Sat 23-Mar-13 08:17:50

How did you get on, Alligatorpie?

Night 3-went to sleep within 15 minutes of going into cot, slept 18.15-21.00

Woke at 9, took 6 minutes timed crying to go back to sleep

Woke at 12, 6 minutes timed crying

Woke at 4, 6 minutes timed crying

Got up at 6.30

So still on 3 night wakings, but settling much faster-I'm out tonight, so will see how he is for DH!

Sleepyfergus Sat 23-Mar-13 09:06:31

Sounding good DrG! Good luck to your DH for tonight, have a nice night out!

Welcome Aligatorpie, how did it go?

So night 5 for us went like this:-
Put down 7pm. Did 2,4 min check. Slept for approx 2 hours.

Put down 9pm. Asleep before 2 min check. Slept for 1.5hrs

Gave feed and changed nappy. Put down 23.15pm. Asleep before 2 min check. Slept for approx 4hrs

Put down 3.10am. Did 2,4,min check. Asleep before 8 min check.Slept for 3hrs, then slept an hour with me (from 6am-ish)

More wakings than I'd hoped/ expected, but she's choked with the cold/teething so poor wee lamb is a bit miserable.

nectarini1983 Sat 23-Mar-13 17:53:37

Welcome aligator and babybeesmama....join the club!

Night 11....a bit of a set back :-( asleep in cot by himself at 7.10-1am then took til 8 min check to get back to sleep. Awake again at 4, asleep before 12 min check but gave calpol as sure he's either got a stinking cold or teeth have started up again as his nose is just dripping. He then slept til 7.30am.

He is still double snotty today so will give calpol and bongela before bed tonight to see of it helps.

I can't complain though, he's been super!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Sat 23-Mar-13 18:31:32

Poor babynactarini sad Have you tried wetting a towel through with cold water, putting a few drops of Olbas oil on it then sticking it on the radiator? Seems to help them breathe when they're all snotty (and I always have olbas and a towel handy-never seem to be able to find those Karvol plug in things when I need them!)

Hope all babies have a good night tonight, babyG went down very quickly tonight, lay himself down as soon as he was put in the cot, and was asleep before the 4 minute check, so I can go out and not feel guilty!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Sat 23-Mar-13 18:31:57

nectarini! blush

crazycrush Sat 23-Mar-13 21:24:41

We've also done cc in the past week and our baby was ready for it and sleeps from 7-7 (wakes for one feed around 4).

I haven't picked him up though to comfort. Do you all do that? Doesn't it make the baby's cry even harder? It does with mine..or do you go in and pick up and totally calm down only to put the baby back into bed? Wouldn't that reinforce them to cry because they know you'll come in to cuddle? I would be curious to know what the theory is?

(This all sounds so callous, but cc is for the best of our whole family... We have an older DC that was fed to sleep until 16 months and has been waking up a couple of times per night until almost 5 years)

Good luck everyone!

Alligatorpie Sun 24-Mar-13 05:36:29

We failed miserably. She stayed in her playpen for about a miute before shrieking and going hysterical. I was worried she would wake up dd1, so I picked her up and had another sleepless night.

I think we will do naps in the playpen to get her more used to it. We have been awya for the past 2 weeks ( different hotels and a cruise ship) so maybe she needs a bit more familar surrondings before we try again.

So glad it is working for so many people. Dd1 didnt sleep through the night until she was 4. Dd2 is not getting that option.

Sleepyfergus Sun 24-Mar-13 07:58:25

AlligatorPie - don't dispair. It's defo worth another go. Is there a way you can temporarily rearrange sleeping arrangements for a week or so until she gets used to it? I'm in dd1s room at the mo and she's in our bed with DH. Once dd2 gets the hang of this we'll move back! Or could you arrange for your older one to stay at grandparents for a couple of nights?

The first night I did this, dd2 went mental! She cried for almost an hour before falling asleep, but that was the worst if it over. Since then, she is less angry and will put herself to sleep a lot quicker. That first time, I knew she was fed, warm, clean bum and sleepy, so her cries were just her being mightily pissed off to the change in her routine.

Good luck though, it is hard esp when their cries could wake the dead!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Sun 24-Mar-13 07:59:07

Wow, that's great crazycrush! I'm still dreaming of a 6-6 sleeping baby ;) When I go in to check on DS, I don't pick him up-I lie him down in the cot again and put my hand on his back or tummy, and that seems to calm him down very quickly and then I leave as soon as he is calmed and start the timer again.

Sorry it didn't work for you alligatorpie-DS is our first, I don't have any helpful suggestions on how to manage CC with other DC-anyone else? Getting naps sorted sounds like a good idea though.

Night 4 - Asleep before 4 minute check

Woke at 9, asleep before 4 minute check

Woke at 12, asleep before 2 minute check

Woke at 4, asleep before 4 minute check

Got up at 6.15

So, we're still on 3 night wakings-any ideas on how this can be reduced, or do we just have to wait, do you think? I'm really pleased with how quickly he's settling when he does wake though! Also feeling much more rested myself.

Sleepyfergus Sun 24-Mar-13 08:30:51

That was a good night DrG. We're the same re awakings. Would love to get her all tbe way through, but she still needs (I think anyway!) a feed before midnight. But in the short term I can live with a couple of wake ups as she seems to be settling quickly. Hopefully soon I'll not have to through to her if she learns to self settle properly!

Our last night
Put down 7.15pm. Asleep before 2 min check. Slept for 2hrs 15mins

Awake 11pm. Gave feed. Put down 10.40pm. Asleep before 2 min check. Slept for almost 2.5hrs

Awake 1am, asleep before 2 min check. Slept for almost 6 hours, awake 6.45am.

Sleepyfergus Sun 24-Mar-13 08:35:32

CrazyCrush - yes, well done on your 6-6, thats amazinf! Re what I do when I go in....dd2 is either on her knees or on all fours, sometimes standing. The odd time she has been lying down. I tend to pick up, give her a wee cuddle, ssh pat her back and then lay her down. 99% of the time she the tries to sit straight back up. I can't imagine getting to the stage of just giving her a pat as she lies there! Maybe that will come <crosses fingers>

I think as long as you're consistent it doesn't matter too much what you do, but now you have me thinking about picking her up and confusing her. Hmmm, will ponder that one!

Loislane78 Sun 24-Mar-13 08:42:52

Mornin' all smile

Well after a poor sleep night before last (teething and no daytime napping due to darn plumbers in the house) last night was pretty good;

18.30 bedtime, asleep instantly
11.30 feed, asleep instantly
3 feed, asleep instantly
5.45 wake up (need a black out blind)
Now having a morning nap smile

So no other wake ups which was good. Mum here this weekend and serious teething going on so still chickening out of nighttime and dummy weaning but happy with 2 wake ups if just for feeds.

Good progress DrG even with wake ups. If going back to sleep quickly and in cot all night that's good progress!

nectarini1983 Sun 24-Mar-13 08:49:36

Night 12...better. gave calpol, teething gel and olbas oil in the room and was asleep by 7.30 with no checks needed. Slept til 3.33 (noticed the clock!) When he had a little grizzle. Prob could have left him but gave him some more calpol and a stroke, didnt have to do any checks, and slept til 6.45.

Still v snotty bless him.

I don't pick him up when I do my checks. The first 2 nights when he did keep standing up, id just lay him straight back down again then do my shhhh pat and walk out. He just stays laying down now from when I first lay him in his cot.

Loislane78 Sun 24-Mar-13 11:08:23

I reckon you've got this cracked nectarini, teething/sickness aside smile

I also don't pick up for re-settles/checks.

Sleepyfergus Mon 25-Mar-13 06:27:28

Night 6 was better here too:-

7.20pm bedtime, asleep with no checks.
1.30am (after feed), asleep instantly.
Woke up 6.20am

She was incredibly tired though, had had a busy Sunday. Today is her first day of full nursery..... I feel a bithmm. I know she'll be fine, but.......hmm

crazycrush - I picked up for comfort as firstly I'm short, so bending over the cot and doing a shh pat type thing wouldn't work, and secondly, the shh pat thing didn't work for my baby, just made him angrier! As long as you are consistant with the pick-ups, it's fine. I would always put him straight back down as soon as he was calm.

It really is dependant on the baby. I couldn't sit where baby could see me as he would cry more. If I was outside the room, he cried less and fell asleep quicker.

AlligatorPie - have you tried just putting her in the playpen while she's awake? Put some toys in there so she can play while you 'tidy' the room. Sounds like she needs to get used to the idea that the playpen is a nice place to be first, before she sleeps there.

Loislane78 Mon 25-Mar-13 20:47:45

That's great fergus! Mine's not at nursery yet (will be in a couple of months) but I was at work for a day today - it's the longest I've ever left her and she was totally fine. I left loads of milk and drinking receptacles but she refused all of them!! She ate quite a lot and drank water and just had a massive feed when I came home, she's only 7 mos. Wasn't upset or anything. Just made me think they're really quite adaptable and it's harder on the mummies.

Hope nursery goes well smile

nectarini1983 Wed 27-Mar-13 19:28:44

Hows everyone getting on? The last few nights been fine this end.......

Loislane78 Thu 28-Mar-13 08:04:47

Mixed bag here due to teething - night before last we had:

6.45 asleep
11pm feed
Nothing until 5am so that's v good for us - probably best night for a few months! Other nights we've had same bedtime, 11pm feed, 3am feed and up at 6.30 which is also manageable if no other wake ups.

Last night was more troublesome with frequent wakings but asleep immediately after quick resettle. Actually think she was cold. New problem with 5.30 wake ups so really need to sort a black out blind thing.

Getting there I think smile

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 28-Mar-13 08:54:32

Morning, sorry I went a bit quiet!

We've had no major issues-last night was brilliant, only one waking, and I just shushed him back to sleep smile Weird thing-I am KNACKERED. Really shattered, and I don't know why-this is the most sleep I've had for over a year, and I feel like I could sleep for hours still! Any ideas? I'm wondering if the sleep deprivation is kind of catching up with me now I'm on holiday, hope it doesn't last too long if that's the case...

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 28-Mar-13 08:56:40

Oh, and when he was settling to sleep last night and shouting for a couple of minutes, I went in and he was standing up and holding his cot bars-as soon as he saw me, he lay himself down and put his dummy in his mouth so I just stroked his back for a minute then left, so sweet!

nectarini1983 Thu 28-Mar-13 12:24:53

Bless!! Preggers again perhaps he he?!?!?!

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 28-Mar-13 18:30:40

OH GOD NO shock

No danger of that thanks nectarini, although you did make me shudder just thinking about it...

Babybeesmama Tue 02-Apr-13 07:46:05

Hello - hope you don't mind I have a few questions! Thinking of trying this as 6 month old DS wakes so frequently at night sad we are so tired. He does need feeds still at 11 & sometimes at 3 but he wakes loads inbetween these feeds for no particular reason other than a cuddle & wanting to come in our bed (which I'm ready to stop). We have 3 yr old DD so I'm a bit worried about the crying waking her up but we are so knackered we need to get on with it. Any tips welcome grin x

Babybeesmama Tue 02-Apr-13 07:47:03

So tired I forgot my questions!!

Do you pick up baby when you do your checks?

Do you leave room straight away?

Has it helped those of you with frequent night wakers?

grin X

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Tue 02-Apr-13 09:56:11

Hi Babybee! I don't pick DS up when I do my check-if he is standing/kneeling, I help him lie down (he often does this himself when he sees me!), stroke his back gently for a few seconds till he is calm, then put his blanket back on and then leave the room immediately.

We are two or three weeks in (have lost track!) and this has taken DS from waking at least once an hour, sometimes more, to waking twice at night-normally once about 10 and once about 2 or 3, which I'm really happy with.

We have also gone from DS sleeping (HA!) with us from about 10pm to him staying in his cot all night, so we're all getting much more, and much better quality sleep. It was amazing how quickly he got the hang of his cot, and was asleep last night by 18.02, without any crying or upset-just went straight into his cot, lay down, had a kiss on the cheek and then I left him and came downstairs. I can't believe how much our evenings have changed! <evangelical>

nectarini1983 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:37:26

Hi babybeesmama. I atarted with my 1 year old son about 3 weeks ago as he was wakinh up every hour/ in our bed/ kicking and tossing about/ general nught terror. By night 3 he slept through the night for the first time ever! ! He now sleeps thru most nights. I out him down in his cot, tell.him ita time for sleep, stroke him and say shhhh and walk out. He doesn't cry at that any more. I do the same if he stirs in the night

I do it pretty much as described by jo frost apart from I did 2, 4, 8, 12 and 16 min checks and then repeated 16 min checks but only had to do that once on the first night.

This has literally changed my family's life and so quickly! My dd is 3 and totally unaffected by it. She didn't even wake up when he was crying. It takes affect so quickly.

In answer to your qs

1. No dont pick up, just stroke and say sshhh, no eye contact. ( lay down afain if needed!)

2. Yes walk straight out.

3. Hell yes its made a difference!!!

Babybeesmama Tue 02-Apr-13 21:20:51

Thanks for the replies! I shall give it a try! Only difficulty I have is whether he's waking for milk or not (he just has after a bottle at 630!) he isn't the kind of baby who has 1oz to go back to sleep, he has it all or nothing at all so I'm thinking if he refuses bottle he's not hungry so do CC. Fingers crossed. Great that its worked for you grin xx

Babybeesmama Tue 02-Apr-13 21:48:19

On 16 min check & he's still wailing sad this is hard. He's absolutely knackered & Everytime I pick him up he falls asleep! Its so hard! X

Sleepyfergus Wed 03-Apr-13 07:45:51

Hi BabyBee, We've also been doing this now for about 2+ weeks and it has been amazing. The first night was by far the worst, dd2 (9mths) was very cross and I went through 2,4,8,16 minute checks and she was about crying for about 20mins before the 32min check was due when she fell asleep. Her cries had 'calmed' down a bit by that stage and she must have been exhausted! The following nights were a lot better!

Since then she usually is in bed by 7pm although the clocks going forward have screwed her up a bit and its been 7.30-8pm - I'm slowly trying to claw it back to 7pm again. The odd night I have to do 2, maybe 4 min checks, but the crying is a tired cry as opposed to 'I hate you, why have you put me in here!

Now she wakes twice thru the night, about 10.30 and either 1pm or 3pm. Both times I give her a bf. My next goal is to drop one of them, but were happy with how it is at the moment. After a bf she goes straight back down, no checks required.

When I do my checks, I actually pick her up, give her a quick cuddle, sssh pat and kiss before putting back down and saying "night night, it's sleepy time now." I avoid eye contact where possible and leave the room immediately.

Good luck, it really has changed our lives and our dd1 sleeps through it all which was a worry of mine when we started it.

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Wed 03-Apr-13 09:48:26

Sorry you had a tough night Babybee, did things get better?

We had a weird night last night-went to sleep very quickly at 6, woke at 10, went back to sleep in under 2 minutes after a nappy change (has horrid nappy rash, so we're trying to keep him as dry as possible) then woke at just after 1, and shouted for nearly a hour and a quarter in total-we went through the timed crying and he just seemed to get more and more upset, so changed his nappy again, gave him some calpol and he dropped off eventually. Def the worst night we've had since we started this, but we got there in the end-hope this isn't going to be a new thing...

Babybeesmama Wed 03-Apr-13 10:15:30

I probably cocked it up sad after another 16 mins I found that if I just left my hand on him he went to sleep, I felt terrible that he just wants the reassurance that I'm there. I ended up sleeping on a mattress in nursery, he woke again at 12,3,5 tho. Just putting my hand on him seemed to work but I'm doubtful it will be a long term solution. But its so hard sad. DH is fed up of me changing my mind and wants us to stick to just one method of sleep training. I feel a bit naff about it all. Do you all think I should stick with CC and not stay in nursery? X

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 04-Apr-13 10:07:08

I don't think you've cocked it up at all! It's a completely different way of going to sleep that we're trying to teach them, and it's likely to take a bit of time for them (and us!) to get the hang of it. With this method of CC the key thing seems to be absolute consistency, as this seems to work fastest, which I think is probably easier on parents and baby-ie this is the rule (you stay in your cot and go to sleep by yourself) and no deviation from that. It seems to get results in 2-3 nights for most of us. It seems that your using more of a gradual retreat approach, which is gentler (an d quieter) but can take longer, and has the potential to be a bit confusing for baby, as the rules change eg hand on tummy till they go to sleep, then lying next to them, then sitting further away etc till you're out of the room.

How do you feel? There's no reason why you should do CC if you're not happy with it, and lots of people have had great success with gradual retreat, but it will take longer to be effective. Could you ask DH for his input? Sleep training is much easier if you're both on the same page! x

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Thu 04-Apr-13 10:08:15

you're, not your! blush

lotsofcheese Thu 04-Apr-13 10:10:47

I felt 9 months was too young for cc. Tried pick-up-put-down from the Baby Whisperer & it worked a treat, much kinder for baby & less stress for me!

Grantsunflower21 Thu 04-Apr-13 18:10:21

Hello all,

Have just read all this conversation with great interest.

My lo is just 9 months and thinking of giving the jo frost method a shot.

We stopped night feeding a week ago so may wait another week to see if the multiple night wakings stop themselves.

One question, if one lot of timings works and they fall asleep and say in 10/15/20 mins later they wake do you start all over again?

Thanks.

Nic

Babybeesmama Thu 04-Apr-13 19:08:10

Thanks drgarnett, I just felt terribly guilty that all he wanted was my hand on him & the comfort from having me close. DH has got 2 weeks of work at end of April so might go with gradual retreat until then, if it doesn't improve will do CC whilst he's off & can help. I'm sick to death of the multiple wakings from midnight - its exhausting (as I'm sure you all know!) . Going to have a glass of wine, do some reading and mull it all over! Thanks again x

Babybeesmama Tue 09-Apr-13 19:32:37

Well, had a change of heart & we are on night 2 of CC! Last night he got to 16 min check before he settled, tonight was only 2 mins! I still co slept for part of last night but attempting not to tonight (I just don't sleep properly for fear of squashing him!). So, any tips and hints welcome! X

DrGarnettsEasterMixture Wed 10-Apr-13 19:46:49

Wow, that's brilliant, Babybee! Has he gone to sleep yet tonight?

How is everyone else doing? I've been watching Bedtime Live recently and really feeling for those people whose children are big enough to get out of bed and come and argue...

Grantsunflower21 Thu 11-Apr-13 19:48:46

It's night 6 tonight...last night was awful (regression?!) so hoping for a better night tonight!

MamaBear17 Tue 16-Apr-13 20:57:31

I have just found this thread after posting on another thread in parenting. For those of you who are finding it tough, may I share my experience? When my dd was 8 months old she became a nightmare to settle at night. I did something very similar to Jo's method, but the only difference was I only left her to cry for one minute before returning. I never doubled the time and left her longer. I would go in, lay her down, shhhh and rub her tummy and then leave. I started timing my minute once I had left and closed the door. I found hearing her cry just too difficult to cope with to double the time and leave her longer. My DD had colic as a tiny baby and I barely got through it. Hearing her cry, even in temper, sent me into a panic. One minute was manageable. The good news is, it still worked for us. The first night took 2 hours, by the end of the week we were down to five minutes. Within ten days there was no crying at all. DD now (at 20 months) tells me to put her in to bed once she has finished her milk, says 'night night, love you mummy' and turns over and goes to sleep.

At 8 months my dd was still waking in the night at 2ish and 4ish. I will be honest and say I did not use controlled crying for this. She was a very skinny baby so I continued to give her milk when she woke in the night so that I knew she was returning to bed full and satisfied. For some reason, she didn't really cry when we put her back to bed in the middle of the night. There were a couple of nights where she did but I returned to my 'minute method' after I had fed her. She very quickly dropped the 4am wake up and was going 7-2, 2-6. I reduced the amount of milk I gave her at 2am to 3oz. At 18 months she dropped the 2am feed and finally slept through. It was a long road to sleeping through, but too be honest, 7-2, 2-6 was manageable, I just went to bed a little earlier. HTH

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