Mumsnet Talk

Bloody sleep regression. It's like 4 months all over again but worse because it felt (briefly) like we were getting somewhere. Feck. Anyone else want to share tales of woe or is it (a) just me or (b) way too depressing to post about..?

Joining in. It's one long tale of woe here. i wouldn't call it a regression because he never really progressed much after the 4 month one anyway. If it isn't teething its a cold. Wakes up at least every 2 hours often even more. Will not sleep in cot in own room.

Hello. DD went down like a lead weight after a day of crap naps. And has just woken as I turn off the light to sleep.. I hate wakes at this time. Never seem to be able to settle without a feed and yet so damn recent since I last fed her. A friends 5 week old wakes less. Grr.

I hear you. My DS is nearly 8 months now, and is terrible with daytime naps. Or at least in his cot. Will sleep ok if we are out and about in his pram, or driving. But put him in his cot while he's still awake and he will cry inconsolably until he's picked up. No amount of 'shh-pat' or speaking in a calm voice makes a difference. Once he's cried for a bit, he will happily feed to sleep (even if he's just had a meal) He won't take a dummy or bottle, so even though it's comfort-sucking, there's not much I can do there

Add to this that his top two teeth have just broken the gum, and he's been night-waking again (noooo! Just after he started sleeping through at last!) and I'm at my wits end... Misery loves company

Dd seems to get better and then worse again - she's 10mo now. Actually the waking isn't as bad as her violence - punching me in the face, clawing, stabbing me in the eye, and trying to yank my hair out despite it being tied back. At this rate I'm going to have to give up bfing - had an interview lasy week with a swollen eye. At least it didn't go black.

Latest trick is to wake and crawl round her cot and then bash into the side and howl. I was cosleeping which helped but now she crawls out of bed and sits up and almost toppled onto the floor...

Sitting here with steam coming out of my ears having spent the last two hours trying to get DS (9m) to sleep! He's now playing in his cot and I know that if I leave the room he'll scream. I have to get up for work in two hours

Me please, can I join too?

Dd is nearly 9 months (dc3) "regressed" at 4 months (until then would consistently sleep 7-4, 4-7) and has been pretty pants ever since. Her current favourite trick is to wake up everyday at 5am and then not o back to sleep. And she is so cross to be awake too and cries if I'm try to sit down.
I'm back to work after christmas so beginning to get desperate (although she shares a room with her brothers which limits my options )

I do wonder where I went wrong

It will get better honestly.

That said I have a 14yo with ASD who doesn't sleep much and can't be left unsupervised when awake and an 8yo who has never slept well but has been struggling to get to sleep, waking several times and being unable to get back to sleep.

So you're not alone

Joining here too. In fact have just posted separately about my dd. She's 6mo and waking every 1.5-2 hours through the night - nothing but feeding will settle her! It's so annoying because her daytime sleeps have got so much better and she's not even needing feeding to sleep at bedtime anymore so I really feel like our nights should be improving but they're getting worse

Can I join? Dd is an awful sleeper nearly 8months and just waking constantly.

Only will go back to sleep laying on the bed with me as a human dummy

She never sleeps in the day in her cot, which I think must have something to do with it. She is number four and this is b shock to me, the others were napping for two hours after lunch and sleeping most of the night by now, bar a quick feed at maybe 4am then straight back off again.

Help!

My DD wouldn't sleep for longer then 1hr20min last night with a couple of 40min ones in there aswell

I've had two angels who slept so well as they sucked their fingers and self settled...I'm willing my Dd to do it, but it just isn't happening.
So I'm the only one that can settle her with bf...I'm so desperate I've been thinking of cc but not sure I can bare it

Ah educator - my Dd has been a confirmed thumb sucker but now she's stopped. Horrors! Been trying to coax it back in to no avail...

Right here with you all! My DD is 9 months today. I don't know what a regression looks like though as she's struggled with sleep from birth. Her all time record is 4 hours - usually in the evening from 7-11 or so. She goes down a treat at bedtime now, and even self settles on occasion. No impact on the night wakings though , they're roughly every hour or two. I've been able to space out her night feeds a bit (down to 2-3 at the moment) by using a dummy and having a very helpful DH. I am tired beyond words though. I've not slept for longer than three hours at a time in over a year as I had PGP related insomnia during the last trimester of pregnancy. and sympathy all around.

Can I join too? After months of lurking on the sleep boards I think it's time for a support thread.

9moDD, also regressed badly at 4 months (though we never got down to less than two wakings before that), and has never really improved. I thought she might possibly be improving on her own a few weeks ago, and then we had two colds, two teeth, and an ear infection which have made everything ten times worse. I now think two hours of unbroken sleep is a good thing .

Mitsouko my DD also settles well at bedtime, in cot, sometimes without us even in the room, but during the night only feeding to sleep/cuddling will do. And she screams blue murder if my DH picks her up in the night. I'm back to work in 5 weeks and really don't know what to do about it. But I can't be getting up 4 or 5 times a night.

Suchanamateur I also have a friend with a newborn sleeping more than this. It makes me very .

Me, me, me! I'm in. DS2 (8.5 months) fooled us at the start by sleeping wonderfully, even a couple of 10 hour stretches. Then it all went tits up at 4 months, a familiar story it would seem. DS1 was sleeping through by 7.5 months so this is a shock. DS2 will only nap in his buggy, which is not such a big problem. He wakes 3 or 4 times a night and I have resorted to co-sleeping. I haven't been for a night out since he was born as it has been impossible to leave him - although DP can now shush him sometimes so I am making an escape attempt net week. We also have endless colds and teething which really doesn't help. My whole body aches with exhaustion.

So what are we going to do about the little blighters?!

Here as well. Four-month sleep regression started at 12 weeks and is still going at almost 7 months. We have tried everything, including CC (don't flame me please - y'all know how desperate sleep deprivation makes you) with very little success. I get stretches of sleep of two hours (max) at a time and up for the day at 4:30am-ish. Naps are only on me. They could, theoretically, be in the pram as well, but I'm too bloody shattered to do that much walking. Got two perfect naps into DS yesterday which lead to an amazing night of sleep, but it required four hours of driving (2hrs in the morning, 2hrs in the afternoon) with him in the car seat to get them. Those are expensive naps, given current petrol prices...

Budge up, me too please!!! Started at 12 weeks. Since then, progressively worse. At the mo settling him in our bed as he won't go down awake and can't get him into cot without waking him. He was in crib at start of night but is too big now. He wakes every 40 mins AT LEAST till I come to bed. After that it varies, can be hourly, more or less at varying points during the night. I too consider waking every 2 hours to be a good night. Have tried gentle sleep assists and he resists resists resists. Too knacked to do anything more hardcore. He is magic in other respects. It soooo helps to know there are others out there. Yay!!

No flaming for CC Elphaba - seriously considering it myself!

Oh, such a relief to know it's not just me- too tired to post at the mo (oh the irony!) marking my place to come back later

Oh hooray a support thread I'm not too late to join (I hope!). Another morning of sitting on sofa staring at ds cruising round room and wondering how I'll get through the day to bedtime, except I know that at bedtime I'll be anxious and grumpy anticipating the night ahead. Just four more weeks of mat leave, wish I had the energy to enjoy it.

Considering cc though I said I never would, but I'm running out of other ideas.

We need a guest lecture from someone with an angel 11mo who started sleeping through after months of hell, so they can share their secrets

I hear you blossombath. The most stimulation I can give DS is listlessly dangling toys in front of his face. Long since chucked in the baby groups on account of fatigue. Six more weeks of mat leave left and I have yet to manage a night on the sofa with the DH with baby sleeping peacefully upstairs or resume any kind of exercise (I was formerly something of a fitness junkie).

How the hell am I going to cope with working full time?!?

Just had to come back on and vent to stop self crying into tea. Just fed ds to sleep for his first nap and feel an utter failure. Not meant to be feeding to sleep but cannot bear him crying in my arms anymore as I rock/walk to sleep. Feels like my life is 90 per cent made up of walking him to sleep. I know he will sleep better eventually but WHEN??! [desperateanddepressedemoticonwithsantahat]

Elphaba so glad it's not just me, I feel awful that I don't play enough with ds but I find it hard to muster energy and frankly most days he seems to prefer just crawling and climbing round on his own looking for things to chew. So I sit and watch, moving him away from danger and stalking the sleep board in search of new ideas.

Oh and at risk of patronising, exercise would probably help Elphaba, gives you energy and all that. if I can do morning chores in time I am going to try and get to a buggy exercise class today so I have something else to think about.

Btw for those of you worried about returning to work, I've been back for a few months and in some ways it's easier because at least you can go to the toilet / drink a cup of tea in peace! I think my body is starting to get used to no sleep as well!

I did think that Lady, you at least get a distraction from sleep obsession, and mental space for yourself. Surprising how well one can cope on little sleep if you have to.
<bucks self up>
Off to do the chores!

Elphaba no judgment here on cc. You have to try whatever works/ you feel comfortable with desperate enough to do. Not sure if this helps but we tried cc with my older DS (now 2.75) when he was 7/8 months ish. Didn't really work. Tried again in utter desperation at just over 10 months after a Christmas of less than no sleep and prospect of returning to work. It worked like the textbooks say it should. I couldn't believe it or at least two weeks. Can't say he's perfect now - and we did go through 6 months plus of 5.24am wakings (still do sometimes) but anything was 100 x better than waking 6 or 7 times a night and not going back to sleep.

I suspect we will head down a similar route post Xmas travels if DD doesn't improve. Although I think she'll be a trickier but to crack so to speak.

Why oh why oh why is it 5am on the dot, I can't figure it out. It's as if she has an alarm clock. I can't see why, it's not as if she's got a job to go to....

Feeling everyone's pain. No cc judgement here, considering it too out of desperation, if only it wouldn't wake up the whole street.

blossom don't beat yourself up about having to feed DS to sleep. We do what we have to do to get through and have some semblance of a life! I recently had DS in arms in front of tv feeding back to sleep so DH and I could spend more than 10 mins together of an evening. It will get better, so I'm told anyway.

elphaba SO hear you about the gym. My gym has a crèche but more often than not I just pop DS in and have sauna and a long hot shower!!

I'm not convinced feeding to sleep is the enemy. On the rare occasions where DS has self-settled, he sleeps for a shorter length of time than when I feed to sleep.

Bloody woe piled upon misery here. He's had a cough which has lasted about eight weeks (not exaggerating) which has finally, FINALLY shown signs of buggering off. Now, he's decided to go from zero teeth to six in a month and he's utterly miserable and sleeping even less, which I barely thought possible.

Do you hear that groaning sound? It's me, pushing shit uphill...

Poor baby Elphaba, all those teeth at once! And poor Elphaba having to watch him in misery at all hours of the night. I do hate teething because I never know whether it is actually teeth causing DS to be extra difficult, or if I'm plying him with calpol for no good reason.

Re feeding I haven't noticed much improvement in his sleep since I stopped (mostly) feeding to sleep, but it makes me feel that at least I'm doing something iyswim. When I end up feeding him to sleep I imagine I can see the 'baby gurus' and other parents crowding round me muttering about rods for backs. Which I know is utter tosh. But still.

Wish I had a gym creche sauna set up, sounds brilliant!

exhausTed, have you tried wake to sleep? Ie going in there and poking them at 4am to try and stop the 5am wake up. TBH it hasn't worked for me but I am a bit scared of it so I never poked hard. Just a thought, though, if the waking is at a regular time.

Elphaba I am also totally unconvinced about the whole self-settling thing being the Holy Grail of infant sleep and quiet nights. I know it's de rigueur as far as all the baby books which I have used for winter fuel go, but since DD started self setting for bedtime and most morning naps at 8 months I have seen no change as far as her night wakings go. Nada. In fact, I would also go as far to say that she sleeps longer and more peacefully after being fed to sleep. When we get a rare 4-5 hour stretch, it's almost always after she's fallen asleep nursing. If she's put down "sleepy but awake" she will drop off without much fuss about 75% of the time, but in all likelihood will wake crying out in a panic 30-60 minutes later.

Yep - 30 to 45 minutes is all we get after a self-settle as well. When we do get two or (gasp!) three hours, it's after a big feed into unconsciousness. He self-settled for two consecutive wakings the other night so technically went from 10 til 2 without me having to see to him, but I still had to put up with three or four minutes of, 'Eh! Eh! Eh!' down the baby monitor, so we still got woken up a couple of times, and obviously, he didn't magically stay asleep despite the preceding self-settling.

Also not had any success with wake to sleep, either, blossom. I managed eke out a nap in the pram from half an hour to one hour by rocking at the right moment exactly twice. I'm pretty sure DS cottoned on to that, though, as shortly thereafter he refused to sleep in the pram altogether, unless on a long walk, and will now only sleep on me during the day. Deep joy.

Snap here on self settling. She can do it at bedtime which I thought was meant to be the answer to all my prayers. Still wakes up in the night. Books talk shite.

Indeed they do, hence why I've burned them all...

My good friend's DS is 14 months and has always fed to sleep since birth. Not a "bad habit" as the books might suggest, but a lovely, comforting, natural way for a baby to fall asleep. Does he wake up 45 minutes later because he's come to the ned of a sleep cycle and finds himself somewhere different than from where he drifted off? Nope. He's done 7-7 since about 6 months. Before then he was having a dream feed around midnight, but then still going through the night just fine, bar the odd cold or teething pain. He's just wired that way, and it doesn't matter at all how he falls asleep. Not one bit.

Our babies are an entirely different species I think...

Yes, my friend has two DDs, one of whom was always fed to sleep and the other rocked to sleep; they both slept through from about 10 weeks and nothing ever wakes them

I also suffer from Calpol guilt. He's had quite a lot in the last week or so (at bedtime) as he's had a nasty virus but seemed perfectly normal and happy yesterday so put him to bed without and he fell asleep quite happily...only to wake up screaming ten minutes later and it took an hour and much medicine/feeding to get him back down. I think lying down makes the teething worse but I can't give him Calpol every night just in case can I?

We had success with wake to sleep with DS1 but he was three at the time so quite easy to wake up, kiss and he drops back off to sleep. I have never dared try it with a baby! DS1 started sleeping through at 7.5 months but would wake at - wait for it suchanamateur 5.24! How weird is that?! we were convined that something was waking him at that time - a neighbour's alarm clock or something - but no, he just woke up at that time! I am pleased to report that he sleeps until 7am now though so there is always hope.

Does anyone else co-sleep? DS2 comes into bed with me at some point every night. Another Rod...

I co-sleep on occasion. Hate. It. Scares me silly, but occasionally it will extend DS's sleeping a bit. My general rule of thumb is if he wakes up three times in an hour, I'll take him into the spare bedroom and I might get 3-4 hours straight (with me lying continuously in one, non-favoured position, terrified I'm going to smother or overheat him).

Can I join please? I think I have found my spiritual home!

My DD is 9.5mo. Used to sleep through with the aid of a dream feed. Wouldn't nap, but finally cracked that at about 4mo. Then she got mobile and it all went downhill! She now sleeps in the cot till about midnight then ends up in with me (DH is working away too at the minute which isn't helping, although there is no room for him in bed anymore anyway!), where she either sleeps till 5am then thinks it's an acceptable time to get up, or she has random, hideous two hour wakings at 2am where I just have to wait for her to wear herself out before she will go back to sleep. And then wake at 6.30. 'Naps' now involve her standing up in the cot shouting at me, or flaking out on my lap after a bottle.

<sigh>

Can I join? Ds is nearly 9 months and getting worse. An ear infection coincided with the 4 month regression and it's been a nightmare ever since. We've gone from 11 hours a night at 9 weeks, to sleeping in cot and waking occasionally to refusing to sleep in cot. He won't sleep without someone in the room so I go to bed at 8 every night and co-sleep. If I try to put him in his cot he screams until I get him out. He was sleeping through if we coslept but this week he's started waking very hour. I'm back at work and its killing me.

Me and dp haven't slept in the same room for 4 months , we just take it in turns to cosleep. On the plus side if he's i with me he will sleep until about 8.

It will get better won't it?
<yawn>

Artifarti I co-sleep part of the night, wouldn't be able to function without it. I also do a lot of my night feeds lying down in bed rather than sitting up as it's more restful. I was really wary at first but once it became apparent that my DD was not going to sleep in her cot for more than two hours on average at a time, and would sometimes need resettling multiple times within an hour it became a necessity. It's really helped. I'd be up at 4am / 5am otherwise.

Like Elphaba I had really bad anxiety about it at first, enough to where I used a Respisense monitor for a few weeks until it became apparent that I wasn't going to roll over on DD without dislocating my shoulder, which I think would wake me up! I'm in two minds about it now. Love the snuggles and the 2-3 extra hours of sleep it affords me, hate the back and neck pain I wake up with. Not worried about rods though, I know plenty of young co-sleepers who have gone into their own beds between the ages of 1-3 without fuss. Once a child is verbal there's a lot more room for negotiation there. Anyway, that's what I hope talk to me when DD is 6 and still coming into my bed every morning at 4am

at the shite-talking books being used for winter fuel. So nice to be among people who disregard these things, irl my friends are book believers since their babies seem to have read the books.

Also pleased its not just my ds who can self settle but chooses not too most of the time.

artifarti for last few nights I have given ds calpol before brushing teeth at night, makes the first waking up easier as he just wants a cuddle and song, rather than wailing, arching and being in clear pain. Think I will carry in nightly doses for a few days then give a break, feels better than seeing him all distressed.

Wish co sleeping still. worked for us, we used to do it a bit when small but now it tends to mean he feeds hourly, waking me up, rather than every two hours or sometimes three in his cot. But I do often feed him on floor in nursery and doze off, take my sleep when I can get it nowadays.

We co-sleep completely at the mo. Settle him in bed with baracades and join him later. Thought it would help the wakenings as he might feel more secure but made no difference. It got to be tho that I was up practically the whole night when he slept alone and wasnt able to go on like that. Was never my intention tho and totally feel all the comments re back and neck pain. So bloody uncomfortable.
Spoke to doctor re the calpol thing as had to give it every night for a while due to teeth. He basically said fine to give as per instructions but that baba would still probs wake up. He was right as it happens but I do just give it if I think he needs it.

DS woke up 6 times before midnight last night! New record!

(I'm thinking if I start looking at it as a great achievement it won't get me down so much...and maybe if DS believes I'm enjoying it, he'll think 'this is no fun anymore' and start sleeping more...watch this space. If it works I might write a book about it.)

Have been reading with interest. So many of us in the same position! I too find that dd stays asleep longer if fed to sleep. I've halfheartedly tried to reduce length of feeds a la no cry sleep solution, but she even seems to wake up after slightly shorter feed, even if she falls back to sleep initially. Co sleeping doesn't seem to work for us though. She screams if I lay her down beside me. The toughest thing for me is that she won't let dh settle her so every time she cries I have to get up even at weekends.

Like your reverse psychology idea Elphaba!

DD was awake twice in the night then up for the day at 5.

Hello all. Dd is 8.5 months and her sleep is a disaster. She's getting her fangs through at the moment so is in agony plus teething always gives her terrible wind for some reason which isn't helping at all. Last night she was up crying most of the night the poor little thing. Thankfully I have a lovely dp who got up with her at 6 and let me stay in bed asleep until 11. Bliss!

We co-sleep completely and I love it. Being able to stay in bed when she wakes is the only thing that saves me from madness. We did buy a super king sized bed at 6 months though which makes all the difference and is an investment I would really recommend if you are cosleeping.

Can I join you? I've been reading the thread but not had time to write.

Not really a regression as DD has never slept well. But DD is coming up to 9mths so at least now I have a textbook excuse.

The latest problem is that DD Will. Not. Settle. at all for me. She wriggles, scratches, slaps me if I hold her and if I put her in the cot (even if I have managed to calm her), she sits up and starts pulling herself up, before dropping her dummy between the cot and the wall. And then screams. DH on the other hand can settle her within 5mins .

And DH and I have both got some viral cold/flu thing so feel like crap. Bug won't shift because we don't get enough sleep.

Can't cosleep, DD just starts crawling around.

How long do the sleep 'experts' say this regression lasts?

[naively optimistic paracetamol popping Santa emoticon]

Ooh, me too. I have DD 6 months, am in despair (have already posted separately under Behaviour/Development). Essentially, what blushingmare said - exactly the same situation. Spend too many evenings sobbing at the mo . Too knackered to read all posts just now but will be back later!

elphaba what an amazing idea. Love it. Will watch with interest.

Genius elphaba, trick the little blighters into sleep. You do have to look on the bright side - I like to think that the extra wake ups are extra times to cuddle ds before he gets old enough to not want mummy hugs. Hard to stick to that philosophy when you are too tired to stand up and/or they are screaming and flailing round seemingly enraged with you for picking them up/not picking them up/feeding/not feeding/just being there.

Fishandjam sorry to hear you're sobbing in evenings - can really sympathise with the emotional toll of tiredness, though most my sobbing happens in the mornings as DH leaves and I face the day. If it gives you hope my DS would only settle for me at about 6mo but now settles for either of us (mostly) so at least we can share some wakings.

Do any of you manage to get early nights as a coping strategy? I am useless at it, but wonder if I should make more effort.

Oh yes, 8.30 is a late night in this house but we live in the sticks so nobody notices . I'm only awake now because baby pickle took an hour of rocking to settle at 8pm (late for her) so am anticipating the 10.30pm wake up.

Btw, how long can you give Calpol/Calprofen before it starts damaging them? I think DD has had a dose most days since 4mths. Doctor seemed very unconcerned when I asked.

Me too, me too! Please can I join? DD is 9 months and her sleep is shite. She was great and I was v smug between about 9 weeks and 4.5 months and then it all went to pot. She's developed every horrible trick in the book - it used to be just waking up every 2 hours or less, but she did feed back to sleep quickly. Now she'll fall asleep in my/DH's arms and look dead to the world but wake up and scream the instant she touches the cot, or 5 minutes later. I usually give up and let her co-sleep in the end.

Last night she screamed hysterically so I let her co-sleep from midnight, fed her a couple of times, and then she woke up at 4 and screamed again. I couldn't calm her down at all. DH eventually got up and walked/sang until she was calm enough to fall asleep on top of me.

I hate co-sleeping - wake up rigidly uncomfortable or with frozen arms from having them out from under the covers. DD seems to overheat, too, which worries me.

This evening she went to sleep at 7, woke up at 8 for a quick feed, then again at 9 and just would not go back to sleep. Both DH and I seem to have used up all our patience, so I brought her back into the living room and she's rolling around on the floor happily looking very wide awake. I don't mind that so much when it happens at this time - it's when she does it at 3am that's the killer.

I go back to work after Christmas too - I'm hoping nursery will help a bit. Maybe it'll knacker her enough that she'll have to sleep? <hopeful>

Oh and I can vouch that self-settling does diddly squat to how long DD sleeps.

I think elphaba, you might be onto something. The other night baby pickle was thrashing around in my arms, absolutely shattered and, I thought suffering in pain. Oh more fool me. When I took her (swearing under my breath) to the spare room to cosleep, she lay there grinning at me, crawled over and gave me a hug and a kiss before then looking excitedly at absolutely everything in the room. She's 8months FFS and displaying teenage contrariness already.

So no more swearing at her now. Just sweet contented smiles as she tries to scratch me to shreds.

My dd is 10 months now. Brilliant sleeper up to 4 months and its been rubbish ever since. It's gone from waking 2-3 times a night to now completely refusing to sleep in her cot. Possibly because we've recently moved house. Anyway, we're reluctantly co-sleeping now

blossom I go to bed at 7pm when DS does (for the first time of an evening, at least). I'm usually out before 8pm. Tonight I fell asleep seething with envy after reading a FB status of a friend with a baby six weeks younger than mine - she (friend, not baby) has gone to an Anne Summers party, leaving baby with her husband, knowing that her DD will be fed and asleep when she gets home and will remain that way until 7am tomorrow morning.

All I want is a night on the sofa with my DH FFS! I don't even want to go to a shitty Anne Summers party!

<sighs>

<half-hearted enthusiasm> Only three wake ups before midnight DS? You can do better than that! We might not end up in the spare room at this rate!

Oh, fuckit...

I gave in and co-slept last night from 1am. DD had only gone to sleep at midnight and when she woke up DH went in to her but couldn't settle her, so I took her into bed with me. She actually slept pretty well as a result, grr! Or maybe her wakings just disturbed me less.

Hope everyone had a great night's sleep! <optimistic>

Well, on the plus side dd didn't cry at me all night which was nice. Unfortunately I had plenty of time to appreciate it as she woke up every 30 to 40 mins from midnight till dp got up with her at 6. She would only go back to sleep if I sat up and cuddled her and then if I didn't hold her for at least 10 mins she would wake as soon as I lay down again.

Like others she is going through a phase of refusing to settle for dp at night which is a drag. Still I got up this morning to find dp cleaning the bathroom floor with dd in the bath playing happily. Bless him. He is earning some serious brownie points this weekend

Hoping for a better night tonight as I work Mondays. Though to reassure those going back soon work really is quite a nice break in many ways.

Haven't slept next to my husband for 9+ months. Co-sleeping started around 5 months - its the only way I can get a half decent night's sleep when ds1 wakes, oh I don't know, every 2 hours...and that's been since birth. Nuff said.

Just read this pearl of wisdom on page 90 in the 'Birth to Five' NHS book <ahem>:

'By the time your child is six months old, it's reasonable to expect them to sleep through most nights.'

<Elphaba places book on towering pile of books that DS has neglected to read...>

My latest strategy is to try and cut down/out night feeds so that, if DS at least needs cuddling back to sleep, DH can do some of them, rather than every night waking being up to the one with the boobs to deal with. Anyone tried this? I guess if you have it was unsuccessful and you wouldn't be here, but it would be nice to find out...

HearMyRoar I'm back to work full time in less than six weeks and I'm rapidly giving up hope that this sleep is going to be sorted before then. DS will be increasing his time at nursery gradually before then. Am I best using the baby-free time before I go back to work to catch up on sleep, or just harden up and stay awake since I'm obviously not exactly going to get the chance to kip at work? (I work in a hospital - seeing all those snoozing patients in their beds is going to be tough...)

DD managed every 2 hours last night. And thrashed about in between, so despite co-sleeping I still got no kip! Chocolate crispy cakes for breakfast here .

Elphaba, can you kip in your car at work? When I was pg with DD (see, she's been a pain ever since sperm met egg!) I was so exhausted, I had to get a lunchtime nap. It was wintertime during the first trimester, so I had a blanket in the car to stop me getting cold... I also fell asleep on the floor of the disabled cludgie at one point, but I don't recommend that.

Nah - it takes me 20-30 minutes to fall asleep (or longer), which is the length of my lunch break, and I'm not one of those who can sleep anywhere, especially not in a car. Besides, being a martyr and all, I'll probably be using my lunch breaks to express!

Elphaba - I was on a similar thread to this when DS1 was a baby and I remember quoting that NHS book bollocks back then!

Xmarks - DP and I have also been in different rooms since DS2 was born. DP is a crap sleeper at the best of times and he usually ends up with DS1 in with him at some point. I try to think that none of this will last forever but I do feel like an old Granny sometimes, heading off to my room with my hot water bottle and a handful of breastpads.

DS2's teething seems to be ramping up which is both awful but will hopefully mean some teeth will emerge soon. We co-slept from 11pm last night. When he is in his cot he wakes all the time and thrashes about seemingly in agony but as soon as he is snuggled up with me, he rubs his mouth a bit and self-settles to sleep quite happily. I suppose I should be flattered...

Elphaba, I've tried getting DH to settle DD - she will sometimes settle for him, which is great, but she still wakes up just as frequently. I'm considering night-weaning too, though, because she's stopped eating much during the day and is happily topping herself up with bm at night, grr!

I hate co-sleeping. I let DD into our bed at 10.40 after she'd been up at 8.15, 9.30, 10.20 and then 10.40 after a 7pm bedtime. It was fine to begin with until I woke up at 3am sweating like a pig, back aching and an overwhelming urge to wriggle frantically. Oh, and with one dead arm because DD was using it as pillow. At 6 I couldn't stand it any more and woke DD up handing her to DH just so I could lie down and stretch. Any tips for happier co-sleeping?

elphaba I do just have an office job so apart from some purposeful striding along corridors its not very physical. even when its pretty stressful its so different from looking after dd that it really isn't as bad as you would think even when I've had no sleep.

Too I don't know exactly how other people do cosleeping but here is our set up which is pretty happy I would say (or at least would be if some more sleeping was actually involved). We all share abed and me and dp have never slept seperatly, which is really important to me, though as we both work the same amount in similar jobs it makes sense for us to share the pain a bit.

1) we have other biggest bed we can fit in our room. We haver a super king which really makes it manageable for all 3 of us to share a bed as we also have a huge baby.

2) I've always used blankets rather then a duvet so didn't need to worry about dd getting stuck under a duvet and also it makes it easy to add or remove layers to stop either of us getting too hot or cold.

3) huge bed means that there is almost 2 foot of spare, clear mattress beside our pillows so dd can be quite high in the bed without me worrying about her getting smothered by pillows. This mean I can have the blankets higher to keep warm shoulders (I also wear a pj top which helps).

4) once dd got past 6 months or so she stopped wanting to snuggle up quite as much (think getting the huge bed helped). She still likes to touch me but we have enough room that I can move about, sleep on my back, etc without disturbing her too much.

We also keep a selection of toys next to the bed so as soon as she wakes up in the morning we can just pop her on the floor next to the bed and she will play for 15 mins while we wake up.

For me the bad bits, like dd's recent habit of rotating found during the night so I wake up to find she is taking up half the bed and kicking me in the bladder, are all made up for by not having to get out of bed when she wakes up. Also by the times I get woken up by her singing next to me and smiling away...but then I'm a big softy really.

I also found I enjoyed cosleeping more when we just decided that it was what we were going to do and so stopped stressing about it or worrying that we were failing somehow by not having her asleep in a cot.

Sorry this has become a bit of an essay. Cosleeping has worked for us though to be honest it would never have crossed our minds to do it if dd hadn't been such a bad sleeper. Really it was a matter of making the best of a crap situation. I can totally understand why people would dislike it and know its not for everyone.

Hear, thanks for the advice! We have a super-king bed too. I suppose what might help is pushing it against the wall on my side so I'm not worrying she'll fall out if I'm not holding onto her. I think you're right about it becoming easier once you make the decision to do it properly and not thinking that co-sleeping= failure to make DD sleep in her own bed.

She's in her cot now - fingers crossed!

This thread is both the most comforting thread I've ever read, and the most depressing!

<waves to Too!>

Clearly it's the right place for me though! My DD is 7.5 months old and has never slept well. There have been the occasional nights when she's only woken up a couple of times, but those are usually when I'm not there! (My Mum has had her overnight a couple of times to give me a break, plus DH has had her without me a few times). There was no 4 month sleep regression, she had nothing to regress from! Even when she was teething her sleep only seemed as broken as usual.

Generally she has no consistent pattern. Despite my best efforts she doesn't nap at the same time each day, and regardless of my 7pm bedtime routine she can fall asleep for the first time anytime between 8 and midnight. She's up and down all night long, usually hourly although tonight she's woken every time I've put her in her cot since 10pm

She's always been clingy and sobs whenever she wakes and finds she's not being held. I think I mostly took it in my stride for the first 6 months. I just thought it was normal (even though all my rl friends' babies started sleeping through by 12 weeks ). I just thought she'd grow out of it. Plus she's my first child so I could just slob around in my pjs all day when the exhaustion got on top of me. Since 6 months though it's really starting to scare me, I'm terrified she won't sleep through for YEARS! DH has a cousin whose FIVE yo DS has always been a nightmare sleeper, and he STILL gets up a couple of times a night (even after a full day at school).

Sorry to be a killjoy, I know in the teeny tiny logical part of my brain that that is an incredibly rare and unhelpful story. It's just half midnight, I haven't slept yet, I haven't had more than 4 or 5 hours sleep in a night for a long time (and those hours are never consecutive). So I'm griping. Please forgive the long rant.

I'm up for trying some reverse psychology! Or a sedative, whatever works!

Hello SIYSBIS. I know exactly what you mean about getting scared she'll never sleep properly! I feel we never had any "honeymoon period" with DD; she got over her horrendous colic (screaming for hours and hours each day for weeks) only to hit the 4 month sleep regression.

Tonight's been another stinker at this end. DD went to bed at 7pm, slept until 9.30, woke and fed, went back to sleep until 10.30, woke and fed again, then went back to sleep until 12.30 and has been awake ever since - though I think she might have given up and gone back to sleep now (I left her to cry - couldn't stand it any longer ).

Really can't take this any longer. Am sitting here crying yet again, feeling so ashamed that I can't cope with her. People say to me "it will get better" and I just want to punch them. GP was no use when I went to him to try to explain how awful I was feeling - he just launched straight into a lecture on how to start DD on solids (when he knows perfectly well I already have a DS aged 3, that I've already done it with) and stop BF and give her formula. Oh yes, and totally leave her to scream when she wakes at night. Because if she was in the jungle and cried at night she would be eaten by hyaenas, so she needs to learn not to . If I go back to him I'll just get another lecture on feeding. (I have no intention of following his advice, BTW. Can't see how it will make that much difference!)

Hi Fish. Sending lots of hugs your way! I won't say it'll get better I think we're both waiting for proof of that! I can only say you're not alone!

Tonight has been horrendous here too. DD has literally woken every time I've tried to transfer her to her cot tonight. So all night long it's been - walk/bounce/soothe, get her to sleep on me for 10 mins, transfer her to cot, scream scream scream, repeat. All night. As usual I caved around 3 and tried co-sleeping but tonight even that wasn't working, she WOULD NOT lie next to me and I can't get any sleep lying with her on top of me because I have a bad back. I'm so tired and absolutely dreading the day.

Your GP sounds far worse than useless though Fish! I guess we have to just keep dragging ourselves through, and waiting for our "eureka!" moment!

Hello again, still no sleep here, and getting worse. I so agree at the depressing thought that this is how it will be forever. I know it's just a phase, and that in 10 years or so they'll have grown out of it, but it's such a difficult phase, and a long phase. I am so scared about going back to work, so it does come as some conforms heremyroar that its not that bad. I think it's looming so its very depressing that maternity leave is almost done and I'm still so exhausted.
Cosleeping just doesn't work for me, when dd is awake she just doesn't want to lie down at all, only comforted when I'm walking around with her bouncing and shuushing. She'll sleep against my shoulder, but then if I try and put her down.... Waaahhhhhh, waaaahhhhh.
Any stories of it magically sorting itself as a present from Father Christmas for being a good mum?

Hideous here too - seven wake-ups last night. He was just now successfully falling asleep on the boob for a 9am nap and a bloody parcel delivery person showed up which has woken him up fully.

Fish Seriously, report that GP. You know he's talking bollocks (and going completely against advice from everyone from WHO, UNICEF, NHS et al regarding breastfeeding) but if he's telling the same hooey to other people, they might actually think he knows what he's talking about.

That said, when I spoke to a GP several weeks ago about DS's sleeping problems he said he'd prescribe a sedative (yes, for baby) He offered on two separate occasions as well, 'to give me a break'. I assured him it wouldn't give me a break as I'd be parked by the cot all night making sure my barely six-month-old baby was still breathing.

Oh thank God, he's knocked off. Let two hours of sitting parked on my bum with snoring baby across my lap commence. Better than an overtired tantrum, innit? God I wish I could sleep sitting up...

I am trying to be optimistic - have just got myself outside two rounds of bacon sarnie and a pint mug of tea, which always perks me up a bit. (So long as I don't look in the mirror, cos I look fecking dreadful - I suffer from very thin skin under my eyes, which is slightly shadowed at the best of times - currently doing a good impression of a raccoon. Though perhaps without the tendency to raid dustbins.)

I am going to get a bottle of proper nice champagne (none of your cava, prosecco or methode traditionnel rubbish ) and put in in the fridge for the halcyon day that DD sleeps through between 11pm and 6am. And on that day, I'm gonna have it for breakfast. You are hereby all invited.

How's everyone else doing? Nights on a scale of 1 to 10? (10 being blissful slumber, 1 being the opposite!)

Still parked here with snoring DS across the lap after a 3/10 night (pretty bad but we've had worse). I could go some toast and a coffee...

May I join?
After a horrendous night of DD waking every hour, I'm emotionally and physically shattered!! I too return to work in 6 weeks and I fear for my career if I can't function at work through exhaustion . I think I have read too many sleep books and have all that 'advice' rattling round in my head making me sooooo frustrated when DD (8months) doesn't conform Her daytime naps are also a nightmare (or should that be daymare)! So we are swirling round in that vicious circle of poor daytime sleep leads to poor nighttime sleep with no end in sight!

Good morning ladies, sorry if i've missed a bit - too tired to catch up!

Fish your GP is indeed talking bollocks. Everyone said my DD would sleep better once on solids. Nope, no difference whatsoever. We've also tried a bottle of formula for the bedtime feed and / or the dream feed at 11 / 12. She was still awake an hour or two later. I've gone back to ebf as the hypoallergenic formula (nutramigen) we have to use smells so vile. I was a ff baby myself and didn't sleep through until well into toddlerhood. I think karma is now coming back for me after what I put my mum through way back then!

Elphaba We have been able to reduce night feeds by DH settling. He's really good at it! He and DD are quite close as he's been really hands on since day one though - she trusts him at night and is usually settled with a cuddle within about 15 minutes. It hasn't impacted the night waking at all, but does afford me about 3-5 hours unbroken sleep between her feeds. Dummy has been a godsend since she started taking one at 5 months, but I think I recall from another thread that your DS was having none of that!

Last night wasn't so bad. I got an hour's nap from 10-11, then a nice stretch from 12-4 while DH was on settling duty. And another two hours from 5-7 co-sleeping this morning. I give my night a 7. For 7 hours of broken sleep!

After a ridiculously bad night with oh-so-little sleep for me, I've suddenly snapped and decided to try CC. (Please please please don't all hate me. I thought I'd never get to this point!)

I've given her lots of breakfast, lots of cuddles and lots of active play. Then as usual she started rubbing her eyes a couple of hours after getting up for the day. Also as usual, she 'pushed through' the tiredness to carry on playing! So I've darkened her room, put her to bed with a her usual night-time lullabies and Ewan the dream sheep, and then I left her for 5 minutes I have a video monitor so I could keep an eye on her and make sure she was alright. I went back in to soothe her with the same lullaby every 5 minutes, and in the end she fell asleep half an hour after we started.

To be honest I'm so ridiculously exhausted after last night that it wasn't as emotionally gut-wrenching as I expected it to be. (More like being kicked in the gut as a opposed to having my arms pulled off ) We'll see how long she stays down, but I'm off for a nap myself now!

Will be repeating for her afternoon nap, and the big battle will be tonight. Dreading it already. I'm desperately hoping that being consistent during the day and night, waiting for her tiredness cues before starting, and generally plying her with loads of food, will help this process!

My poor little baby

Fish I'm soooooo jealous of the bacon sarnie by the way! Fabulous idea! Wish I had some bread in the house!

Mitsouko hooray for a wonderful DH sharing the load! It won't solve the root problem, but it certainly makes it more bearable!

Elphaba have you escaped from under the sleeping cherub yet?

Escaped at around 11:10. Practically burned a scorch mark on the carpet between the sofa and the kettle. Back on the sofa again now for afternoon nap but this time I have a plate of chocolate biscuits and a brew next to me. Thinking, see.

No judgement from me about CC. Hope it works better for you than it did for me. You're lucky it worked so quickly for a nap. I felt like shit mother of the year doing it for a week, with no effect whatsoever.

Oh, crap. My and have run out

Scream you've got to do what it takes. How was the nap? Have you tried again this afternoon? I would give CC a try for naps but DD will just play for hours before giving up/ screaming so we'd get a 5 min nap, if that.

We spent the weekend with 20 of DHs closest friends in a bug rented house. Xmas tradition. Five hour drive. Sharing a room with both kids. No chance of an early night. Several people there with 7-7 babies. Was fun but not conducive to sleep. So am now even more shattered, kids are wildly overexcited and I am having a massive attack of the green eyed monster. 2 days to unpack, wash and then we're on the road agin for Xmas...

Elphaba yy to feeling like shit mother of the year! Boo to the running out!!

Such ouch to the 7-7 babies! I'm very happy for all my friends with babies (mostly younger than mine ) that are sleeping through. I'm not sure I'd want to be sharing a house with them right now though! Fingers crossed that your LOs are so tired out by all the stimulation over xmas that they sleep better than usual instead of worse!

My DD has been crying on and off since I put her down for her afternoon nap at 2 It feels like last night all over again, she calms down and goes to sleep when I'm in the room, but somehow knows to wake up as soon as I step outside the room. I'm checking on her every ten minutes at the mo, and using the video monitor in between. I'm ready to sob myself at this point though, I'm just so exhausted and feeling so guilty but utterly clueless as to what else I can do?!?!!! The No Cry Sleep Solution is hopeless, and so far "she'll grow out of it" hasn't been working!

Well, I think I would give it a 2 last night. I got a whole 2 hours between 4-6 but apart from that it was awake every hour at best with plenty of back arching and crying in between. I'm afraid that my plan to remain cheerful and calm went out the window a bit and some creative swearing might have been heard

Last night was probably a 5 or 6 - we're going through a phase of just as many wakings (5 or 6 in fact) but at least DD is settling pretty quickly after being fed back to sleep

Sadly I have a revolting cold and am feeling pretty grim so could do with much more sleep than I'm currently getting. And to top it all off, although DD was settling OK last night after wakings, I wasn't - kept lying awake with lists of things to do going through my head. That's all I need, a bout of insomnia...

However I am feeling lucky that DD is currently napping OK (well, with some persuasion for her morning nap) and in her cot. Elphaba well done for surviving the enforced sofa sitting - I would be itching to get up and do something!

Scream looking forward to hearing more about the CC experiment. Fingers crossed it gets some quick results. We're holding off any real attempt to improve sleep till after Xmas as we're away for 5 days and can't imagine that's going to help. So at least 10 days to go.

Scream I read 'no cry' and 'baby whisperer' and the Dr Sears one! All pants and I followed them to the letter making sleep logs like a fool!! At the end of my tether I read 'solve your child's sleep problems' by Dr Ferber who recommends CC or as its referred to in the book progressive waiting. Well we are 2 and 1/2 weeks into it and after a promising start it too is now not working! The only sucess we've had from it is DD left alone for 15-20mins to cry has figured out how to turn her music box on! This calms her for a while. I know she can self settle as she does it at 7pm when we put her to bed but why oh why can't she do it the rest of the night?

I wish I had never read any books!! My mum's advice (as I too was a nightmare sleeper - cheers genetics) was to walk her to sleep in buggy during the day and switch the monitor off at night . She said 'we'd no monitors in my day and I'm sure you didn't sleep the night through, but I only got up if you cried loud enough to wake me' As far as I'm aware I'm not damaged from this 'training', DH may disagree

Hi Scream!

Last night was um, mixed. DD was up 6 times between 8.20pm and 2.30am, at which point I tried co-sleeping. Now, yesterday I was feeling like shit - have caught the virus DD had last week and had a temperature of 38.2 in the afternoon and a v sore throat. I basically had a sort of claustrophobia panic attack and couldn't lie still. I was sweating and panicky and just had that feeling where you want to thrash around like crazy. I swapped DD from side to side of me, then tried having her lie on my chest but all I achieved was waking her and DH up. DH then took DD while I cried, thrashed around a bit and went 'I can't cope, I can't cope'. DH took DD off to the living room because she was wide awake as a result of my tantrum, I calmed down and fell asleep. I woke up at 4.30 alone in bed and discovered DH and DD asleep together on the living room floor. They stayed there until 6.30, when DH had to get up for work and luckily, today was DD's first morning at nursery, so I was able to go back to sleep. I slept like a log until 12.15 when the bin men arrived and the dog woke me up barking at them. So all in all, I got a fair bit of sleep last night, but only because DH took over.

Still, DD napped for 45 mins at nursery this morning, then again from 2.45-4.15 this afternoon. She normally never naps in the afternoon. She woke up in a foul temper, mind you. She then looked exhausted, hardly ate any dinner but wouldn't sleep for me. DH, bless him, got her to sleep in 5 mins at 7.20 after I'd spent half an hour trying. I'm really hoping that going back to 2 naps a day will help.

Keznel I'm so sorry nothing's been working for you. Sounds like you've really tried everything!! I'm in the same boat with genetics working against you - my parents have just told me they used to put me to bed in the attic bedroom and go and have a drink in the sitting room on the ground floor! Apparently I was a nightmare... oops!

Half sorry to hear you're ill, tiredness makes that so much harder. I hope you get better asap!

at Hear's creative language!

I'm happy to update on cc for anyone who's interested. Can I just say though, whether or not it works I'm definitely not turning into an ambassador for it!! I really hoped I would never get to this point. I have tried doing a strict routine for several weeks, I also tried PU/PD for weeks, but none of it worked for me. I have every respect for supermums who can make non-crying methods work - that would always be my first choice!

So as I've mentioned, it took half an hour of on/off crying to get DD to sleep for her morning nap at 10. She slept for half an hour for that nap. At 2pm it took a whole hour of on/off crying to get DD to sleep That's been my worst bit (so far). If I hadn't been so exhausted I would definitely have cracked. She fell asleep properly at 3ish, woke at 4 and cried for 3 or 4 minutes, but I patted her and left again, and she went back to sleep. I woke her at 5.

I did her bedtime routine at 8, and she was practically asleep by the time I finished her story at 8.45. I left the room at 8.50, and she fussed for a few minutes but was asleep by 8.55. She hasn't woken yet, but I'm absolutely dreading tonight.

Wish me luck!

Joining too if that's ok. My 9month old went down to sleep at 8pm after only 1 30min nap today. No time to post more as we're off to bed before he wakes up again. Marking my place and will share my misery tomorrow.

Wishing you all good night's

Well! We had a not too bad night, down at 7pm couple of wakings til 10pm (self settled for these), then soundly sleeping til 5 when I turned her music on and she slept til 7am hallelujah!! Although I do know its probably just a one off, so not getting too excited just yet! She slept well during nap times yesterday as I had her out for a walk in buggy x3, so maybe that helped? My heart sank when I heard the rain beating against the window this morning - no walking today

We had a really tough night. DD settled down at 7 and did two hours, but was waking every 30 minutes or so from 9-2. We co-slept from 2ish but she still woke up from 4-6, wide eyed and singing and rolling around the bed. Finally, she wore herself out and slept til 8. I think I got about 4-5 broken hours. YAWN...

Keznel, hurray for a better night!

Shite night again here. Lots of wakings, culminating in wide-awake baby at 1.30. I let her play in the living room for a bit, then went and restarted the sleep battle and she eventually dropped off at 2.45 and slept until 4.30. I took her into bed with me and she slept until the alarm went off at 6.30, then resettled until 9, but she's knackered and grumpy this morning. She's napping now - FX it lasts for a while!

Sorry to hear about Misouko's bad night Hang in there!

I'm glad Keznel's LO did so well though! That's an amazing night! Maybe she enjoyed it so much she'll do the same today even without the walking!

Last night went surprisingly well here! Between bed just before 9, and waking for the day at 8, my DD only woke four times and one of those was my fault for making noise and disturbing her. Every time she woke I did 30sec of patting/lullabies, and then left her by herself. Each time she cried for a maximum of 2/3 minutes (once only 30 sec!) and fell asleep within 5 minutes. It was heavenly! Plus the gaps between her wake ups (except the one that was my fault) were all over 3 hours! So I actually got some sleep!

The morning nap today was harder, probably because I was half an hour late putting her down for it so she was overtired. Plus she produced a truly awe-inspiring nappy just as we started, so I had to get her back up and change her. Still, she went to sleep in just over 20 minutes after we finished the nappy change. She slept for 40 minutes.

So it's going well here so far. I'm still not advocating cc for anyone else though! It's heart-breaking when she does cry (mainly for her naps).

We had a better night too. DD only woke twice between 7.30pm and 7am - 10pm and 3.30am - and went back to sleep each time immediately after feeding. Fingers crossed for a repeat tonight!

Sorry to hear about your shite nights too and mitsouko. Hopefully you'll get a better one tonight. Peta0, how was yours?

And yay to keznel and SIYSBIS's better nights!

Hmm... I think you might be onto something with this genetics business. The other day my mum informed me that i didn't sleep through the night until I went to full-time nursery...at 3 years old I kind of wish she hadn't told me.

I'm sorry you had such a bad night Too. I have had a couple of very similar ones where dp has had to take dd into the livingroom at 3am. It's rubbish. I hope tonight is better for you.

Well, in a sleep deprived haze i forgot to turn the heating off last night, I woke up sweltering but dd slept in 3 hour chunks rather the the 40-60 mins I had been getting! So now I feel both stupid and mean because while I was getting increasingly annoyed with her she was clearly waking up at least in part because she was cold, poor thing. So today I have gone and got her one of those really padded sleepsuits, which will hopefully keep her nice and warm as she seems to have decided covers are for losers. We'll see if it works tonight.

Six wake ups last night, co-sleeping from 11pm. Awake at 5:30am. Ugh.

Totally agree with scream about CC, although it eventually seems to be working for us, I do not recommend it if you can avoid it, it's heartbreaking . Glad to hear some LO's are doing well, and my heart goes out to those who aren't. We'd an awful day regards naps so am dreading tonight, here's to one full of sleep for everyone

HearMyRoar that's interesting about your DD being cold. i've sometimes wondered whether that makes my DD more restless too. it's not so bad the last week or so, but when it was really cold she did seem to wake more. Hope the padded sleepsuits work out. Having said that, can they be used with sleeping bags? I never know how many layers I should be putting on DD.

Well, another night approaches. Have no idea what tonight will bring. DD is either slightly ill or teething. Last night was strange because after waking at 9pm as per usual, she slept till 1.30 - unheard of round these parts. I actually woke up worried because she'd been coughing earlier and I thought she might have been too ill to wake me <ridiculously paranoid emoticon>. However, after that she was back to normal, waking every couple of hours with a long spell of being far too wide awake about 4am. She's been tired today though, and actually fell asleep sitting on my knee watching Pointless before going upstairs for bedtime tonight. Also unheard of! Still asleep now, but I suspect things won't remain that way. I did dose with Calpol though so we shall see.

Good to hear about the good nights - fingers crossed that the little ones continue with the good sleeping. Fishandjam - brilliant news on the two wakings. Long may that continue!

Hello all, catching up on threads after two days of cold and teething which meant DS was a miserable, clingy little soul. Sleeping didn't get much worse, though, which is a blessing. In fact going relatively well, just a few wakings in the 'proper night' (ie when I'm in bed) and mostly settled easily after a bit of food and maybe having his snot sucked out with the little snot sucker thing.

Last night, though, I was awake til 1am fretting - he hadn't woken for his usual 11/11.30 feed and I think my body was missing the sleepy breastfeeding hormones. So in fact it is me that needs feeding to sleep, not him.

Good to hear about postive nights for so many of you, especially SIYBIS and kenzel - cc must be hideous so am really glad it's working out so far.

Elphaba, mitsouko and too, hope you are sound asleep now and remain so for a good few hours.

Oh, I actually meant to comment on reducing night feeds and cold....

Night feeds (elphaba asked about this): we had some success here when DS was about 7-8 months. He had moved to his own room, was eating some solids but going hours without much interest in milk feeds in day, even though I was offering every two hours at least. But waking hourly at night and I fed him to sleep as it was easiest. So I decided that I had to try and cut down night feeds.

First tried to set myself a time limit - if he wakes less than two hours after last feed I will rock him to sleep - but this didn't really work as I would forget when he last woke up and would generally feed him anyway after up to 40 minutes walking round with him wailing in my ear.

But he often settled easily in his first waking so I decided to take it one waking at a time. I focused on not feeding him at the first waking (usually about 10) and then he began to sleep through til about 11 and wake less after that (every two hours at first, now he will sometimes go for two three hour stretches before being up for day). If I have energy I sometimes try to not feed him at the second waking now, but he does seem hungry then. Even at the first one if he cries I feed him quite quickly cos I just want to go back to bed. So basically I'm hoping that we can keep pushing the first waking back and back until it's about 2/3am and then maybe, just maybe, he would wake just once more (or not at all!) which would be bliss.

It does also mean that DH can handle settling him now, which he couldn't at about 6 months when only food and mum would do.

And cold...I think there's something in that, DS seems to sleep better when I pile on the layers of vest, sleepsuit and maybe a long sleeved top. It can't be the only reason though, since he has never been a good sleeper and it hasn't always been cold in his life.

The other day I was so obsessed with the idea that if he was warmer he'd sleep better I nearly bought one of these sleepsuits and this sleeping bag.

My SIL has the sleepsuit for her DD who is a good sleeper, but only 3mo. Still might get the bag as it's not too much more than a grobag, but for now have decided the sleepsuit is too much unless it came with sleep guarantee.

Fishandjam we had a better night last night. DS went down at 8pm, woke at 11pm just as we'd settled down to sleep so DH went in and quickly shushed him. Then he woke at 12pm and I went in. He was screaming, but seemed to calm down when I put my hand on his chest. He stayed wide awake for a while tho. But, then he slept through till 7am which was gobsmacking! So much better than the 2hour wide awake screaming session the night before.

Today has been calmer, and I've tried to wear him out ready for naps. He went down at half 7 and has woken once so far. I'm off to bed soon in anticipation of more wakings.

Oh, and blossombath DS definitely sleeps for longer when he's warm. Altho that means I'm boiling! Think he takes after his dad in that respect!

PetaO 12 to 7 is amazing hope you get another good night tonight.

Peta that's great! Let's hope for a repeat performance.

Re cold and waking - DD really likes to be warm. (Probably why co-sleeping often works well.) She has short sleeve bodysuit, long sleeve babygro, winter weight Grobag, two cellular cot blankets (the lightweight variety) and... a hot water bottle under her feet, outside the Grobag. We tumbled to it early on; would be putting a HWB in her cot to warm it before she went in, and then again during the night when she got out for feeds. Ended up leaving it in, once it had cooled down enough. I used to worry about making her too warm, but in all that cold weather we had her little feet were freezing despite the clothing and Grobag. I think she just sleeps better with warm feet!

Heaven knows what sort of a night we'll have as it was a very disrupted day (will explain tomorrow - quite funny in retrospect - too tired to do it now!) She went to bed at 7, yelled for 15 mins, then woke at 9, fed, ditto yelling, all quiet since.

Well, I got one of these 2.5 tog suits and completely ignored all guidance about what she should be sleeping in. I had her in a vest, the padded suit, a sheet and 3 fleece blankets. She also slept on top of a blanket and was snuggled with me so super snug.

Good new: she only woke 3 times! And she slept a whole 4 hours between 11:30 and 3:30. I feel blooming amazing this morning, can't remember the last time I slept 4 straight hours at night.

Bad news: she did wake at 9:30 and take 2 hours to get back to sleep, but I am pretty sure it was teeth as once we could give her a second lot of drugs she settled down again.

So on the whole I am classing this as a success. Obviously cold hasn't been the only issue but clearly it wasn't helping. It seems she just likes to be really nice and warm at night.

Why I never thought of this earlier I can't imagine.

So it seems that I spoke too soon yesterday. We had good naps during the day but after going down at 7.30pm DS woke at 10 and then every 15ish minutes until 1am. He then slept until 8am, but the wake at 1 was crazy! Proper screaming and we had to turn on the lights and convince him we weren't going to put him back to bed before he would calm down. Then we gently shushed him in his cot for about an hour!

This morning has been dreadful. He yawned 3 times having been. 2.5 hours so I put him down and he again screamed blue murder until I turned the lights on And picked him up. I've ended up feeding him to sleep as it was feed time anyway and he was so exhausted. Who knows how long he'll stay down for.

We really are both baffled and a little demoralised. Apart from the 4month regression and a blip with a heavy cold he's been an awesome sleeper (sorry) . And we've not changed anything. He still doesn't have any teeth, and he's eating really well. We just don't know what to do and we're so tired!

I agree with all the people who've noticed temperature makes a difference. Up to 6 months I followed the sleeping guidelines re temp of baby's room at night and the layers they should be wearing, as closely as possible. Once she reached 7 months though I found she sleeps much better at 22 degrees (as do I!)

Sorry to hear about a few bad nights out there. Hang on in there ladies!

My DD is actually responding really well to the cc, with hardly any actual crying! Last night she only woke twice between bedtime at 10.30 (my fault, we had guests over) and morning milk at 7. She fell asleep with NO crying at all at bedtime, and Each time she woke in the night she cried for 30 sec (literally) and was asleep again within 2 mins. I was back in my bed within 3 minutes for both wake ups! It was heaven

For her morning nap today she was asleep within 90sec of me leaving the room! (I know these crazy-exact times because I put my timer on to measure the ten min intervals).

Fingers crossed all our LOs have a good night tonight!

Right - well I think I might increase the layers DD is wearing and see if it helps her sleep better! HearMyRoar those snugglers look lovely!

Peta - yikes, every 15 minutes. That sounds dreadful. Glad he eventually settled down, and indeed slept till 8!

Scream sounds as if you're having some results. Quick question are you BF or FF? Were you feeding in the night before, or was that not an issue?

Last night was a mixture of good and bad for us. DD only woke 3 times between 6.30pm and 7.30am which is amazing - 10, 12 and 4. yes a four hour stretch there! But then ruined it all by being wide awake at 4 and not feeding back to sleep as she always always does. She let me put her down in her cot after half an hour or so, where she lay babbling for a while before starting to cry and eventually feeding back to sleep about 5.30. This long stretch of waking is a new thing for us, two nights in a row now - I hope this isn't some sort of new routine. <shudder>

Half nighttime wakefulness is just grim! I feel for you! Fingers crossed this was just a one two-off!

I ebf DD to 5 months, mixed fed for a month, and she's been ff since 6 months. As part of my various desperate efforts to sort out her sleeping I night-weaned DD about a month ago. She has no milk between 11pm and 6am now, and she's fine with it. She wakes in the night because she wants to sleep on me, not from hunger. She's also a BIG fan of solid food, she eats LOADS!

Okay, I have a confession to make. I did cc last night. I just couldn't face another night like the previous 2, not that the ones before that were much better. I did the Supernanny version: Do normal bedtime routine, then put baby in bed and say 'night night darling, go to sleep' and walk out. Leave for 2 mins, then go back, pat her, say Shhhhhh, then leave for 4 mins. Then 6 mins, then 8...

So, DD screamed. And screamed. DH had to physically restrain me - he said we'd give it half an hour and see how we got on. I went back in after 2 mins, and then after 4. She cried and cried - it was awful. Then, after 1 more minute (so 7 mins total), she suddenly shut up. When I went in, she was fast asleep. She woke up 20 mins later and cried again, but this time it only took 3 minutes before she fell asleep again. She woke up again after an hour (so 9.30ish) but only cried for 1 minute. Then she slept until nearly 1 and when she woke up, cried intermittently for 20 mins, but not the awful screaming of earlier, just normal cries and I could tell she was getting sleepier - she kept stopping, being silent for a bit and then starting again. And then...she slept until 7.20am!

I put her down for her morning nap in the same way, and asked nursery to do it too for her afternoon nap (she's had a couple of nursery sessions this week to prepare her - I go back to work after Christmas), and she cried for no more than 5 mins each time. Then at bedtime tonight, I bf her in the living room, took her into her room and laid her down, she started to cry, but it lasted for 90 seconds and it's been silence ever since!

I felt horrible last night - it really is heartbreaking to hear her cry. Like Scream I'm not exactly advocating it, and if DD had kept up the screams for much longer I'm not sure I would have stuck to it, but she didn't. However, that's the first 6 hour stretch of sleep I've had since we hit the 4 month regression. She's 9 months now.

So since he was still awake, DH decided he'd go through to try and cuddle DS back to sleep after his third wake-up. Been listening to the screams escalating for...ooh...almost 20 minutes now? If past history is anything to go by, it could go on for 90 minutes or more, followed by 20 minutes of sleep, if we're lucky.

Dear life, that child is obstinate...

Oh FFS, he's completely awake and chortling...this cannot end well (for me...at 2am...).

So we had a bit of a breakthrough last night. Down at 8pm quite restless and had to sit with him, crying to himself at 10pm and then again at 11.30pm but settled down quickly without us having to go in. And then I woke up to him chatting to himself at 7.45! I'm shocked!

I'd decided to take my own advice and I put an extra blanket on him. Also, he managed to work out walking (whilst holding onto my hands) in the afternoon, and I'm pretty sure he'd been trying to do that for a while. Perhaps that contributed to the wakefulness.

Or perhaps it was just a blip and we'll be back to no sleep tomorrow... Who knows!

How was everyone else's night?

Well, we are coming on leaps and bounds here! CC has worked, DD going down at 7 a couple of whinge/grumbles til 10 (self settles within a few mins) then sleeping through to anywhere between 6.15-7am, and that's 2 nights in a row - miracle!! Now to tackle the daytime, have put her in her cot this morning, she's been blowing raspberries and babbling for 10mins but at least no crying yet! No sleeping yet either mind you

Too glad CC is working, it's never a decision anyone comes to lightly I'm sure of that. But you get some solace in the knowledge that your LO is getting a good nights sleep .

DS screamed bloody. blue. murder. for 40 minutes last night with DH holding him. As DH had to work today and is going to his Christmas do tonight, and therefore wouldn't be able to do any follow-through for two nights, I intervened. Took DS to bed with me, fed him and we both got almost four hours' sleep. Awake every 1.5 to 2 hours after that mind...

Can't cope with this much longer so we may be trying CC again soon (very reluctant and worried...didn't work at all when we tried it a month ago ). The health visitor is sending their nursery nurse out to see us today who is apparently an 'expert' on sleep. I shall try and keep an open mind but if she has anything revelatory to suggest I'll be surprised. RL hand holding and a plan from someone who can give advice on night weaning and sleep training while DS has the world's longest-running most never-ending cough might be nice though...

oh elphaba have and my hand...wish I could come and push your.ds round a park while you have some much needed sleep.

I noticed on the Prof Winston webchat this week he mentioned that his cds have a section on sleep, to do with sleep hormones and daylight. I, like you, despair of getting any new advice from sleep experts but hadnt heard of anyone.discussing sleep hormones so might be worth a try?

Also have you tried snuffle babe? Its like baby vicks, worked wonders for my ds cold. And a friend puts it on her dds feet and swears it stops night coughing. Anythings worth a go, right?!

Sorry to hear about your rubbish night Elphaba. That sounds so stressful. We've all been there, and we're with you in spirit! I hope the RL hand-holding does some good though.

Hurray for great nights in the Keznel and Peta households! Plus, of course, a big well done to Too's DD, but I've already said that elsewhere. Please remind me Elphaba how old is your DS? I really think cc wouldn't have worked on my DD a month ago (she will be 8 months on Xmas Day). It's only the last few weeks where she's shown she can self-settle occasionally for other people, so I think that made it the right time to get her to use those existing skills on a regular basis. Fingers crossed if you end up trying cc again this time your LO will be ready, and you'll have a much better outcome! Of course it would be lovely if he would just start sleeping through of his own accord, say from tonight?

My DD had another good night (kind of). My parents were babysitting in the eve and apparently she went down fine (using the same method I'm using now) at 9.30. She woke 3 times between bedtime and morning milk, but on each occasion she went back to sleep within 2 mins with no crying. I still have to do 30sec of patting/lullaby before "leaving" the room each time she wakes, but she's going into her own room after Xmas and I'm hoping at that point the night waking will stop. Fingers crossed. Until then I'm more than happy with less than 2 mins of waking and not having to get her out of the cot each time she stirs.

blossombath and elphaba we used snuffle babe when DS had an awful cold/cough and someone at DHs work suggested putting on his feet. I was v v sceptical! But it worked like a dream, coughing went down probably about 80% so he got a much better nights sleep. Definitely worth a try.

Congrats to those of you who had better nights, I'm trying not to get too excited in case mine don't last!

I tried Vicks on his feet for about a week which did nothing, unfortunately. He's had this cough for almost 10 weeks and it's responded to absolutely nothing and the doctors say it's nothing to worry about. It's been the main thing holding me back from doing any sleep training because I worry that it'll just be completely counterproductive (cry, cough more, just start to settle, cough, wake up again, start crying again etc...) It's one of the things I'll talk to this nursery nurse about today.

Scream He's 7 months, so I know he's young but I'm desperate for something to change before I go back to work in six weeks.

Well that was helpful.

Advice:
1. Feed him bigger portions of solids (he's a spoon refuser who might swallow three crumbs a day of the finger foods he's given then throw the rest on the floor. And hands up those for whom solids made no difference to sleep?)
2. Take him back to the doctor again for the cough (OK)
3. There's this technique called 'controlled crying' which you should try...(erm, yes. He feeds for at least 20 minutes every 1.5 to 2 hours...what do I do about that?)
4. Oh. We don't have anyone who's breastfed as long as you have - they've usually all given up by now. I'll have to talk to the breastfeeding specialist.

Oy vey...good job my expectations weren't too high.

Elphaba - that is total shit. What a waste of your time - sleep specialist my arse. In terms of cc, you may find it'll work now when it didn't amonth ago. Certainly the case for us with DS1.

Congrats to those of you who are seeing real improvements. Just in time for Xmas!!

We're a mixed bag. Naps are all over the place - not settling and/ or short. No idea what to do about those. Really don't think cc will work for DD with naps.

She's settling at bedtime although wakes half an hour later crying (which I think is overtiredness). But then th last 2 nights we've only had 2 wakes - around 2.30 and 5.30/6. I've fed both to times. She'll be 11 months in Jan and I'm quite keen to nightwean - at least pre the 5am mark. Do you think cc would work for middle of night wakings, given she can already settle at thebeginning of the night? Trying to cuddle/ pat her back to sleep just makes her furious.

But it's likely to all go to shit anyway as we're now on the road for Xmas. DD doesn't travel well...

<holds up hand to solids not making a blind bit of difference, despite every adult on both sides of the family swearing that they would and giving me grief for not introducing baby rice the instant we hit 4 months. I held out until 6 and then did BLW, not a popular choice>

Elphaba, that really is shit. Am also fuming at the 'no one has bf as long as you have' comment. For what it's worth, DD was bf for aaaaaaages, every night, every time she woke up, right up until I started cc 2 nights ago. She was not hungry, she was just rooting because she thought she needed the milk to sleep.

Yes, solids made no difference here either and DD is quite enthusiastic about them now. Elphaba that sleep consultant sounds useless and the comment about bf-ing is just unhelpful. I have friends still bf-ing babies older than yours and they sleep to 5ish before needing a feed. Mine doesn't of course, but it's not the bf-ing that's causing the problem!

Anyway Scream I was interested that you'd nightweaned before you tried cc. I don't think my DD needs all the feeds she has at night, but is just feeding to sleep. She could probably go a good long time overnight without feeding, but just won't sleep any other way. I suspect we will be tackling sleep and nightweaning together. But I am scared in case we just start a new set of problems - i.e. not going back to sleep at all!

Like SuchAnAmateur we are away for Christmas so shall be putting all decisions on 'what to do' on hold till afterwards. Maybe she'll magically start sleeping all by herself. Ha ha

Last night was average - 4 or 5 wakings I think. No four hour stretches of sleep but no more than 15 or 20 minutes to go back down . What gets me is that there is no rhyme nor reason to a good or bad night. I can't stop myself trying to work out why but I really should have learned that it's pointless by now!

If anything when we started weaning dd's sleep got worse. I think the problem is that she loves food soooo much that she already refuses to bf much in the day in favour of solid food so is genuinely in need of milk feeds in the night to make up for it.

I generally try cuddles and/or rocking for a bit before bf when dd wakes in the night which has reduced night feeds to around every 3-4 hours an they are usually pretty good feeds rather then just a bit of comfort sucking. Of course it's done sod all to stop her waking but hey ho...

Last night was another mixed one. Had a good 4 hours between 11 and 3 but around that it was pretty crap, particularly the last couple of hours when she woke every half hour. We're waiting for nher second fang to come through and it is obviously causing her a lot of pain so tonight I am going to preload a couple of syringes with paracetamol for easy quick dosing in the night so at least she will be less sore.

I had a health visitor on the phone to me for 45 minutes this evening as the nursery nurse 'sleep expert' had reported back to her. Oh. My. God. I'm confused. I'm going to tootle over to the weaning forum and vent my confusion there after I've got DS into bed (for the first of many times).

The comment about the BFing just made me chortle inwardly. Seven months - extended breastfeeder me

elphaba what did the HV say if you don't mind me asking? Your DS sounds very similar to mine in sleep patterns or lack of. Have given up asking about it as they were sod all help. Only suggestions were CC and the holy grail of putting him down awake (really tried, managed it once or twice, t

Bugger... Took hours and made sod all difference).
Haven't seen HV in ages. Bet they were cross you had stumped their expert!!!

Oh dear elphaba it doesn't speak much for bf support in your area, does it?! Or indeed for the quality of HVs, mind you they all do seem to be a bit loony variable wherever you are.

I have to say food - not necessarily solids - does make a difference to DS. If I have convinced him to have a few good bits of milk and some solid food in the day it can make things better at night. But I am afraid of over feeding him and making him obese so I do try to offer finger foods or loaded spoons as much as possible rather than shovelling it in.

He settled pretty well tonight - in fact has been for the last few nights, and is back to his slow and steady three wake ups a night, have a cuddle and or food then back to sleep. This compared to every hour and not going back to sleep unless on boob or DH's chest a few weeks ago/

So perhaps his 'regression' is over and we are back to normal. But I would still like to stick around, because my RL friends have 7-7 angels so I like being with people who understand what it means to have not slept more than 4 hours in months.

Nightmoves The thread I've put onto weaning, which relates to the HV's flummoxing advice, is here. All the respondents seem to want to give me sleeping advice though, which I'm not really after. Appreciate the time taken to respond and all, but I've been around the houses and back again with sleep. This is more of a weaning thing (which is related to his sleep but...oh bugger it...y'all know what I mean...)

Well, after all that, we didn't have a bad night at all last night - wake ups at 11:30-midnight, 3am, 5am and 6:30am with no co-sleeping required. Fair bit of feeding and cuddling needed for transition back into the cot, but definitely preferable to waking up having my hair pulled! Rather than disappointing myself (again) into thinking this is The Great Turning Point I've been dreaming of for months, I'm going to assume it's one of three things:

1. The HV suggesting I starve him terrified him into sleeping more.
2. He's constipated up to his neck, so maybe it's making him a bit sluggish.
3. He gives me a reasonable night's sleep once in a blue moon. I think it's because he doesn't want me to look too haggard in my coffin.

Hope everyone else's nights were passable?

Solids made no difference to us and DD eats well. Ok so I'm glad DD is catching on with the nighttime sleeping, it makes such a difference getting good successive hours of sleep (that is when I can sleep, seem to have developed insomnia since DD's sleep has improved -tangent). But I'm still mighty frustrated with her daytime naps she is displaying tired signs when I put her down and I follow same method as we did at night, but she stays awake for the entire hour (at which point nap is supposed to end) I just don't get it, is she scared of missing something?

Keznel I hear you on the naps thing. That's exactly what happens here. No idea how you're meant to sort it.

Thanks elphaba. Have read HV advice. Am in agreement with you about milk being main source till 1 but maybe there are exceptions. Thanks for your reply.

Just read the weaning thread elpheba (but am posting here .... Um...not sure why...). I actually think that not only is she competly going against all advice I have read, including the NHS guidelines, but she is telling you to do something that would be potentially damaging.

Reducing your feeds to 2 a day is mental! Besides if you DC is that hungry then your milk is a much better source of calories then any solid food. All guidance I have read says you should offer milk before solids up to an year as solid food is a secondary source of nutrition.

My dd eats tons. 3 good meals plus at least 2 'snacks' (usually fruit and rice cake or something so not tiny). She stills feeds at least 5-6 times in 24 hours and they are good feeds. There is no way I would even consider reducing the number. I would also say that she didn't really get going till around 8 months. At 7 months we were still at the messing about stage so saying slides should be the main source of nutrition is mad, particularly as you aren't supposed to even be showing them food till 6 months.

Despite shoveling in food like she has hollow legs her sleep is still awful, so personally am hugely sceptical of anyone who claims eating solids improves sleep.

Here are some bits from the NHShttp://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/Pages/solid-foods-weaning.aspx#close

This says that babies should be moving towards 3 meals a day from 8-9 months so definitely not using solids as main source of food.

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/Pages/solid-foods-weaning.aspx#close

The HV gave me a sample food 'timetable' i.e. what you should feed babies of different ages at different times of day. It's obviously been photocopied from something official and it does say babies from 7 months should only have 2-3 milk feeds per day plus three meals.

I don't know if this is my evil breastapo twin rearing its indignant head but I can't help but feel that advice is driven by evidence (if there is any) based largely on FF babies. It's entirely suitable perhaps for FF babies who tend to fall more easily into a timetable and you can see the quantities of milk they take in in any milk feed, and therefore fiddle the quantity easily, but it just seems counterintuitive to me for previously EBF babies to go relatively quickly from on-demand feeding to twice a day at relatively set times. I'm also more than a little concerned about getting mastitis or blocked ducts with a sudden huge drop like that.

I confess I am no expert but i think you're right. I saw on the NHS site that it is meant to be about 1 pint of formula a day but nothing I could see specified number of bfs. You can't say how much they are getting per feed.

I would want to know exactly where this timetable is from and ask how this fits with the NHS site that says you wouldn't necessarily expect them to be eating 3 meals a day until they are a year old. Also if the timetable is from something official when is it from?

IMO I am sure there are cases where good eaters and sleepers might drop quite quickly to only 2-3 feeds a day at 7 months but it seems really quick to me.

Sorry, realised this is turning into a bf and weaning discussion. Back to sleeping.... On a scale of fabulous night of dreamy sleep to suicide inducing dd was somewhere between bad to rubbish. Woke about 5-6 times but was pretty quick to settle so got 2-3 hour sleeps between wakes.

Today she has only wanted to walk about holding my hand (new skill) and has considered any other activity a howl inducing waste of her time.

Good luck for the night ahead everyone! See you all on the other side

I agree entirely with Hear, the HV sounds misguided at best. What she says doesn't fit with current NHS online guidance, or any other weaning advice I have heard. I also agree that 2 feeds a day sounds more suited to ff babies, though not even sure it would suit them: they are meant to have 500-600ml of milk a day until a year which would mean taking up to 300ml in one go - that's an awful lot for a wee tummy to take in.

Perhaps the official thing she had photocopied was from a while back, and is more suited to babies who begin weaning pre six months?

My own feeling is that encouraging him to eat and drink more at day might help reduce night feeds if only in that it will give you confidence to keep on rocking and comforting when he wails safe in knowledge that he isn't going to fade away as he's had lots of calories in day. But given the other issues, like spoon refusal and gagging, that obviously has to be a gentle process and not just a random 'starve him of milk and shove other meals down him' thing.

<weaning gavel>

DS back to his usual non settling self tonight, DH currently singing lullabies in the nursery while I make tea. He is also increasingly poorly seeming, and has what I think is a heat or allergic rash. Waiting on call from NHS direct just to check it doesn't sound more serious than that. So obviously hoping he gets better, but actually he seems to have been sleeping better while poorly cos he is so tired. As long as we unblock the nose now and again and keep him fed he has slept really well (for him: 3 wakings a night, food, back down). So hoping that he gets better but keeps up the sleep improvement!

hear your DD sounds brilliant, I love when they get a new skill and are obsessed with it. Hope the walking has worn her out.

Oh, kenzel and such I meant to say lack of, or randomness of, daytime naps is infuriating. People always say to me that I could nap when he does, but I never know if he'll be asleep for two hours or (much more likely) 20 minutes. And I don't want to be just about to fall asleep and get woken - makes you feel worse than before.

Or he won't settle at all and I end up taking him out in the pram to force him to sleep, usually on some made up errand which makes me feel a bit more purposeful and not like a crazy harridan who is a slave to her son's sleep

blossombath I know it's crazy, I actually think people round where I live will think I'm mad as our little village has lack of footpaths so there's a little green area at the back of the school with a path on it, most days I walk round & round this in circles to pass an hour! the minute I stop she wakes! We have had to plan our Christmas Day so that she will be in the car for 2 2hr periods. I can't wait til the napping thing is over and done with only a few more years to go then............

Sorry that should've been 2 1hr periods in the car, luckily DH's family live an hour away

DD won't nap in buggy or car.

Oh dear, yes the terrible napping. Gosh, that brings back memories of the 4 month regression when dd's napping was hideous. I remember standimg outside our apartment in the rain one morning with dd in the buggy because she wouldn't sleep anywhere else and some nice lady walking past and just saying "don't worry love, it'll get better". I almost burst into tears

Thankfully so far dd is napping rather well at the moment and for the first time ever seems to have settled into a general kind of routine during the day which is rather nice. Fingers crossed it stays that way...at least for a bit.

Last night she slept pretty well and settled really quickly after feeds but tonight it looks like we are back to the hourly wakings. Ho hum.

We have The Cold From Hell. Rivers and rivers of snot. Guess its better than last Xmas when DS' norovirus announced itself spectacularly during present unwrapping and then preceeded to move through (quite literally) every family member. On both sides. The Christmad gift that kept on giving.

Rivers of snot here too! One sneeze and it's Armageddon.

YY to arranging Christmas Day around naps. I'm suddenly wide awake realising I've told everyone lunch at 2pm...which is exactly when I'll probably be parked on my bum on the couch on nap duty I'll have to think about that one...

Well, tonight has been awful. I think I've had about an hour or so of sleep and have now given up and plonked her on the living room floor to amuse herself. Its the happiest she has been all night.

Elpheba, would she sleep in a sling at all?

Yo dudes. We have had a few totally bone nights - around 3 in the awfulness scale. DD has a stinker of a cold (DH has been singing "By the rivers of Snottylon") and her sleeping was shot even further to shit. As was her feeding. But last night she managed midnight to 5.45, woohoo!

Elphaba, I haven't had chance to read your HV advice but it sounds from the same school as my GP! I think I'm going to consult my lactation consultant (who is also a HV who does private work). Because there are nothing like as many calories in a bit of mashed carrot as there are in milk, and I can't just launch straight into the full English. Aarrgghh, confused!

I shall be eternally optimistic for you, HearMyRoar, and say maybe she's wearing herself out so she gives you a good night's sleep before Christmas yeah, right

Sadly, DS gave up sleeping in the sling quite some time ago. He now sees it as a way of getting closer to all the action. I think I'll just make lunch 12:30 and I can have presents brought to me during nap time. It's a hard life

Yo back atcha, fish! (Check me out all street) 5.45 hours sounds lovely. Hopefully the rivers of snot are drying up for you.

Thanks for the optimism epheba. I think I could do with some of that. Just about to settle on the sofa for some napping time myself so can totally sympathise. I can put her down but she then doesn't sleep as long so I tend to only do it once a day at most or she ends up over tired.

In the end after some walking around and playing she went back to sleep at 4.30 for a couple of hours which was a relief. Luckily Xmas eve working mostly involves eating cake and then sneaking off home at lunchtime so not too strenuous.

Decided to go out for dinner so hopefully the excitement will wear her out a bit.

Wishing everyone a sleepful Christmas

It's brilliant when someone starts setting off an artillery of backyard fireworks when your baby has finally slept for longer than forty minutes after re-settling three times already...

elphaba I've found that the first year of parenting is basically wishing everyone and everything in the world would just be quieter! It's so demoralising trying to get DS to sleep when I know that in 5mins a train will go past and wake him up.

Oh, and the house next door but one has just bought home a motorbike.....

Arghhhhh! 1 step forward 10steps back!! Staying at relatives coupled with full on teething = zero sleep for me!! Had to co-sleep which I don't like for the simple reason I can't get comfortable (bad back) and get no sleep, DD managed a grand total of 2hrs, so she's like a bag of weasels today . On the teething thing how long does it last before the tooth actually appears? Or is that a how long is a piece of string kinda question? Have been giving her powders (ashton&parsons) during the day, and either calpol or nurofen at bedtime. All I wanted for Christmas was her 2 front teeth - but alas not to be.........

I know the feeling kez. Teething is the pits. Sorry to say if yours is anything like dd it could be weeks, however I do think she is particularly rubbish as teething. Most people I speak to just love telling how they just get a day or two of grumbling before teeth magically appear.

I know HearMyRoar it's awful! I can actually feel the tooth trying to push through at the bottom, she's in so much pain poor wee mite, was just told I can alternate calpol and nurofen 2hourly, so that's good to know . On the sleeping subject does has anyone found teething wrecks any progress that has been made? I really hope not as we were starting to get somewhere!

I'm sure teething is to blame for a lot of DD's poor sleep. But by crikey it's been going on a long time!

Keznel Nurofen should be given every six hours. Was it a pharmacist who said you can alternate paracetamol and ibuprofen every two hours? If it wasn't I'd check that advice. I thought you could alternate every two hours as well until a pharmacist looked alarmed and told me otherwise.

Well, on the solids improving sleep front here, DS has been taking in loads the last few days, including an enormous quantity of rice pudding (sweetened only with apple) immediately before bed last night and it has had absolutely no effect whatsoever - still waking up 6+ times a night for boob, so the HV can take her opinion that he's waking because he's hungry and stick it. I've also read from a number of sources now that you can't really do CC until you've night-weaned, which makes sense but...ugh. I'm getting happier with co-sleeping and I've mastered the art of feeding while lying down and dozing for night feeds but I still don't think that level of sleep interruption is compatible with working. Doing Christmas lunch on Tuesday nearly killed me and my job is a lot more involved than that!

And DH has got a vomiting bug so I'm looking after two babies at the moment...

Can I join in?
Dd is nearly 9 months and has yet to form a predictable pattern. She got worse weekly up to 7 months when we did controlled crying which was magic - just woke at 10 and 4ish for feeds then straight back to sleep. Then teeth and colds appeared and four of the last 5 nights have involved large amounts of crying, frequent waking, refusing to go back to sleep... Dh is v ill with flu, ds (3yrs) is waking early because we're not at home and I am barely functioning.
I'm just glad I'm not alone... Merry Christmas!

Re ibuprofen and Calpol, my GP told me to alternate them but on their own dosage patterns. So as they're 4 times in 24 hours for a baby over 6 months, that's every 3 not every 2. And only for 3 days! (Can get paracetamol build-up if not careful.) We try to only give it to DD at bedtime. And resist the urge to give her gin

Glad the cosleeping is getting easier epheba. Hang on in there ;)

Welcome to the party bouncer!

We give paracetamol at bed time, then ibuprofen in the night and another dose of paracetamol in the morning if needed. We've been doing this far too long but though we can distract her during the day if we give nothing at night she will just cry and cry for hours which is no fun for anyone.

I've decided that it's less stressful for me to just except that I'm not going to get a full nights sleep for some time and go for damage limitation rather then hoping she will suddenly start sleeping through. To this end I'm trying to work out the things that are stopping her from settling and making her miserable. Think I've sorted the cold problem, can't do much more about her teeth than we already are, so last night I went for the poorly belly. I've noticed that after feeds she's often really unsettled and her stomach is gurglimg away so I tried keeping her upright for 20 mins after feeding. It was a bit tiresome but she did seem to stay settled longer (3 hour stretches of sleep) and woke this morning in a really good mood (She's usually pretty horrid until her first nap), which made a pleasant change. I'll try it again tonight and see how we go.

I've decided to revisit sleep training when she is a year old. By then she will be past the regression, I won't be so worried about reducing feeds if needed, and hopefully her digestive system will have settled a bit. It's only 3 months and I kind of feel better just for deciding not to stress about it for a bit.

Apologies Info on calpol/nurofen was given to me by DH from SIL, with a bit of Chinese whispers in between! Have since checked with GP and fishandjam is absolutely right it would be alternating them every 3 hours. Luckily I hadn't followed the advice as I don't like giving her drugs as I am reluctant to take them myself, so have been giving a dose of calpol during the day (if none of my distraction tactics work) and nurofen before bed if I feel she needs it, one tooth has cut through, another one on the way, then hopefully the tooth fairy will give her a wee break for a while

I have a question...one thing (well one of the many, many things) that worries me about doing any kind of sleep training like CC is the impending 9 month sleep regression and separation anxiety. Since DS jumped boots and all into the four month sleep regression a month early, never to pro-gress again, I'm fully expecting him to make a meal of the nine month one as well. Has anyone done sleep training and then been pushed completely back to square one at nine months?

waves wearily Hello, can I join in please? 7 month old DS has been a monumentally crap sleeper from day 1 and is showing no signs of improvement. We co-sleep through choice but I'm starting to re-think it because he seems to love the on-tap boobie. And I didn't even know there was a 9 month regression until I found this thread Not tried anything yet because I'm too wet for CC (so far....) and shhh pat doesn't work. Feed to sleep worked for my DD and she self-settles brilliantly now (is 3).

Anyway, the good news for some of you is that my DD was great for 4 months and then regressed horribly but by age 1 was back on track. So it's not the end. I reckon if they managed to sleep at first they have it in them. Right?

Elphaba - dd was back to square one after colds and teething following improvements after cc. But, I did get a little time with better sleep and I do now feel that there is hope to get back there!

Thanks babybouncer - you've jogged my memory on that, actually. We had some success with gradual withdrawal before a cold knocked him back to worse than square one. Hmm...decisions, decisions.

Hi tettoni - know what you mean by booby on tap. I thought I was getting happier with co-sleeping until DS decided he needed that booby next to his face hourly last night. Can't win for bloody losing! And only the most fashionable babies get up for the day at 5:15am, don't you know

Ugh, the thought of getting up at 5.15am makes me shudder, but I know it's just around the corner. Last night I turned off the boobie tap and my little boy actually got out of bed. I woke up to find him standing at the side of the bed So it was back on the boob. Sigh. They really know what they're doing.

Another tired one signing in here!

DD2 is nine months old and the last month has honestly been hell when she was a newborn I was so grateful that she would go three hours between feeds, I really got my hopes up. Then when she was a few months old she would usually just wake once in the night and would occasionally sleep through (11 hours) so then I really got my hopes up.

I thought I was all prepared. DD1 (who is 3) was terrible to begin with, then slowly slowly started getting better. She never slept through 'til she was 16 months so I thought I'd be able to cope; but what I forgot was she would sleep 5-6 hours, wake for 5 minutes for a feed, then sleep for another 4-5 hours. Really not a hardship

DD2 was poorly about a month ago, had bronchiolitis. It really set her back and she still has a wheeze. She is also full of cold and teething (seems to be a common theme here!) and honestly everytime she coughs I die a little inside because I know she's going to wake up.

< and on cue, she's just coughed and woken up crying for the fifth time in two hours...>

i have no energy to deal with DD1 in the mornings, I whisper "shut the hell up" into DD2's ear in the night. I truly am horrible when I have no sleep

Here we are again. Got fed up of sitting in bed while dd wriggled about grumbling so we are back up. Hoping 20 mins of something else will reset her or something and we can try this whole bed business again. God I'm tired!

I find quite often when dd wakes she will go back to sleep with just rocking so not sure that the proximity of booby is waking her. Mind you despite cosleeping I've never done the feeding lying down thing so maybe that makes a difference

Had to suddenly halt my last post due to dd having a bit of a pooing incident (my own fault, I accidentally gave her something with butter in the other day and dairy really doesn't agree with her at all)

saymama I think you sound pretty restrained to me, I'm a bit concerned that dd's first words are going to be 'oh for fucks sake' as she hears them so often upon waking.

Hello ladies, so santa didn't get your letter about a full night's sleep either, then?

After a few days of good naps and just one (!!!!) or two feeds at night ds.has returned to old ways of no naps, three or four wake ups..(at least not every hour or two yet).i have no idea what changed. Exhausted and demoralised.

Typing this on bus on one of my attempts to force a nap in the buggy. Could do with holiday from being a mum right now

Just swore under breath at a random woman in h&m, and the security.guard who followed me.because apparently I'm so haggard I look like a thief. Now nearly in tears as i got out of lift on wrong floor on department shop. Off to find coffee shop

blossombath

Well, if you can't laugh, you'd cry. Copiously.

Maybe you'd be better off finding a Bargain Booze.

Cake, lots and lots of cake, interspersed with chocolate breaks.

Well if you can't drink before lunch at Christmas when can you?? Oh wait, when you're breastfeeding a still milk mad and grumpy nearly 10 month old. Cake and chocolate it is then.

Feeling bit better after nap at lunch thanks to DH (I had a nap that is, DH chased DS round living room). Now, however, we are sitting wearily being competitively tired and summoning up energy for bathtime.

sayMama I too mutter un-nurturing things at DS far too often. I hope this will pass when he is finally sleeping properly and I am only mildly tired.

Oh and just thought I should add on calpol/nurofen: We rang NHS direct last week as DS had a rash as well as high temp. Was just a viral rash, but the nurse said that if baby is ill (ie with high temp) they don't recommend giving both paracetemol as well as nurofen as it can be too effective and mask a bad fever. She didn't say if this applied to teething pain, too - probably not since you aren't worried about fever in that instance.

Blossom and Hear You wouldn't be so nice if you heard me swearing right after I'd posted that last night! It wasn't too bad after all, she was coughing until about midnight (vomited in the cot twice ), then feed at 2am but she settled straight away and slept until 7:45 so the end was nice! Shame DD1 got up at 6!!

Tonight I fear is going to be a repeat. She certainly is poorly, coughing is waking her up constantly. But when we bring her into our room she instanly starts playing happily! Which would be lovely if it wasn't the middle of the night!

I hope you all get a bit of sleep tonight!

We've had the coughing for 11-12 weeks - it's the only thing (so far) that has come close to reducing me to tears because it's so relentless and so soul-destroying when you hear it repeatedly down the baby monitor, especially when you've FINALLY got them back in the cot. We've had an inhaler off the GP and either that, or time, seems to finally seeing it off, although it's not 100% yet.

Well, we could have ballsed it up royally today. DH, now recovered from norovirus, decided we had to go out to a large shopping centre. I think we ended up buying two books and a packet of cocodamol Time of year being what it is, it was heaving and we didn't get out of the car park until after 5, so naturally DS fell asleep on the 40 minute car drive home. I rushed him upstairs and clamped him onto the boob to try to get him back to sleep (worked for about 30 minutes) then, after a quick nappy change and into a sleep suit in the pitch black, got him on the other boob and back to sleep again. However, I can feel it in my waters that I'm going to have a very perky little boy around 2am...best get what sleep I can in now, eh?

Nighty night, for the next couple of hours, anyway.

SayMama I thought you sounded very polite too! I have had to watch my mouth since my 3 year old has started calling my baby a pest

Hi everyone. Well, at the risk of sounding thoroughly po-faced, I am never. Ever. Going to moan about DD's poor sleep again. Horrible accident on Thurs night - at SIL's, circumstances too long to relate, but basically DD grabbed the tablecloth and upset a full, scalding hot, mug of tea over herself. Luckily it's "only" first degree burns to her neck and shoulder - missed her face.

I was utterly terrified and panic-stricken as initially we had no idea how bad it was. Visions of permanent scarring etc. And the awful feeling that my baby was in terrible pain because I was careless. Her perfect, smooth skin is raw and blistered because I was careless. If I believed in a god I'd have been praying...

Feeling so, so guilty about all the horrid things I've thought and said about DD. Especially as she's being really brave and tolerant of strangers poking, prodding and hurting her.

So now I'll just grit my teeth when she wakes up every 90 minutes!

Oh fish how awful for you, and her. It's one of those things that could happen to any mum, none of us be perfectly watchful all the time. Don't feel guilty, we have all said and thought things that we wouldn't want our dc to undersyand, but we're human and the main thing is that we keep loving and trying our best foe them. Guilt is a useless emotion if you dwell on it, but a positive one if you let it change you then let it go...so you have made me think that I will try to be more patient with ds tomorrow.

Thank goodness your dd is ok, and fingers crossed for full and quick healing for the burns x

Awake. Been awake for hours. Loosing will to live

Poor fish She'll be fine - one of those things that was probably far worse for you than her. A work colleague told me about her goddaughter whose ankle gave way while she was going downstairs and she dropped her newborn down the whole flight - it even bounced. Baby was screaming and fine at the bottom, thank whatever deities may or may not be in existence, but I think I've stewed less about DS's sleep since hearing about it.

Hello... Just popping in to say it does get better - take heart!

We have had 3 months of "what happened to my lovely baby who slept through?!" and now my 10 mo ds is just starting to sleep better again. Colds and teething (seemingly endless teething with no actual sign of actual teeth!) didn't help. I also became Calpol's bitch. My GP said it was OK for a short period of time.

Also had the sobbing until picked up and then all smiles thing. We feed to sleep a lot of the time even though he can self settle because he doesn't. And do you know what? I don't even care.

He was breast fed until he was 8 mo but would have his bedtime feed from DH in a bottle from 10 ish weeks. We found that we knew how much he'd had then, and after 11 oz at bedtime there was no way he was hungry again 3 hours later... So stopped feeding him again then.

We also did a dream feed at 10 for a bit to make sure he had a full bottle at night but I didn't really like that as it felt like force feeding, iyswim (not judging - that's just how I felt).

So anyway... let's hear it..."this too shall pass". The relief is amazing.

Oh gosh, Fish I didn't see your post. How frightening for you! And poor babyfish

Please try not to feel guilty though. It could (and does!) happen to anyone. I'm sure it will heal well and she won't even remember it in time.

Reading back last post I realise I sounded drunk and twee - apologies, really mustn't post so late at night.

Sorry you were up so long say, hope you got some sleep eventually.

On separate note, can I ask how all these sleep shenanigans are affecting your relationship with dps? Currently struggling with mine, resentful of all the sleep I lose while do doesn't even seem to stir unless I wake him, yet he still complains about being tired I the day which I find so annoying. I know I'm being martyrish, snappy, competitively tired, all those horrid things. Things feel so much worse when you're tired.

Oh Fish I feel awful for posting that after your post! Poor you and poor DD! Please try not to feel too guilty, it was an accident. Glad it didn't get her face. How was she overnight? Has she been sore? Have they dressed it in a second skin thing (duoderm) or anything? < un-mnetty hugs >

DD finally went to sleep at 3 last night, after driving her up and down the dual carriageway for 20 minutes. God bless the car! Although apologies to the gritter I pulled out in front of!

Blossom Fortunately DH is marvelous with doing his share. He never grumbles. I feel really sorry for him this morning though, DD woke him about 2am, he helped to try and settle her and didn't sleep until he 'got up' for work at 4am (he starts at 5am ) So I know he'll be knackered when he gets in. At least the perks of being a SAHM is I can sit in my dressing gown and be lazy with the kids and no boss to tell me off! The only thing that's affected is the sex. He told me he wishes we had more of it (currently getting it about once a fortnight because of the tiredness) but he does understand and doesn't pressure. I really need to make more of an effort though, he's a bloody saint.

Oof just looked at the time of my post, must've been later than three because there was a vomit and a change of clothes and a drive after I posted that! No wonder I look like crap this morning!

Poor fish ! Please do try not to beat yourself up about this (though obviously that is exactly what I would be doing if it was my dd). I think this is the age when they suddenly start interacting with the world which basically seems to mean courting disaster. It's nobodies fault, it's just one of those shit things that happens.

If it makes you feel better dd is currently learning to walk (she seems to have decided to go from completely immobile to charging about with no intervening stages at all), this mostly involves lots of falling over in dangerous places. Before her nap this morning she managed to bash her head on the door frame and head butt a wall. Yesterday she came within millimetres of a+e when she pulled herself up on some shelves and the keeled over, catching the side of her head n the wardrobe door on the way. And of course there is also the sudden desire to pull heavy things down on her head, slam her fingers in doors and fling herself at whatever happens to be the most dangerous item within her vicinity. All in all I am developing ninja like reflexes and a seriously high chance of heart failure. I think the only way I will be able to avoid her getting injured is by tying her down but I understand that's frowned upon these days.

SayMama late night clothes change and clean ups are the worst - once during a tummy bug I changed five nappies between 5.20 and 6.45. Glad that's over. Hope you get a better night tonight.

DH does help, problem often is that I won't let him help enough as I'm worried that he will then be tired and we tend to argue when we're both tired. However today, bless him, he rather had to help when he found me in a crazed state trying to get buggy up and go out at 7.30 am in my pyjamas and wellies. DS wasn't going to sleep and I was convinced he needed to but a walk was the only way. I had been trying to feed then rock him to sleep and neither was working probably because actually he wasn't that tired but I was just desperate for him to sleep so I could go back to bed as I hadn't slept much or very well last night. Because I didn't want to wake DH I thought going out was the best option.

Should also explain that DS has this habit of sticking his fingers in my mouth and gripping my teeth/lips while he feeds, especially when he's sleepy or upset. Mostly I ignore it or try to distract him by holding his hand but this morning something in me flipped and I was so upset and frustrated by him writhing in my arms or wriggling on the boob that I felt I would bite his fingers in anger. I was pulling at my hair and forcing his hand away to bite my own arm to stop myself hurting him. So by the time DH found us I was in a state and really felt I would hurt myself or DS if I didn't go outside. Eventually he talked sense to me and left me sobbing on the bed while he took DS upstairs. DS was happy as larry playing til 9,30 when he apparently went to sleep very easily.

DH was rather shaken by this and today has suggested I go to GPs as he's worried I have PND or something. I really don't think I do - pretty sure it's just exhaustion and possibly hormones - but said I would ask you ladies, who are in the same boat as me, if you think that this kind of event is within the normal remit of an exhausted mum?

fish I am so sorry but what a relief that she's ok. It could have been my kids so many times - just luck that it hasn't been. They're so fast. Hope you're ok.

blossombath I think sleep deprivation is responsible for a lot. My DS scratches and squeezes my boob so much that I have a permanent bruise there and sometimes when he does it I yank his hand away harder than I need to. I am instantly ashamed and sick at myself, but I know that on the days when I have had a lie in I can take so much more. Your DH is great to be on the watch for PND, and if you feel you would benefit from talking to someone then why not, it can't hurt - but no, I think sleep deprivation is a method of torture for a very good reason. It sends you insane. By the way I did have PND with my last so I can tell the difference more easily between exhaustion and genuine depression, but I don't think there's much in it to be honest, not when you're exhausted. Getting therapy saved me and my daughter from a very miserable time. If you have a sympathetic GP it may not hurt to get some CBT or something. Hope you're ok too.

blossombath It might be worth talking to your HV or GP about possible PND. I think there's some basic checklists they can run through with you by way of quick diagnosis. I have a very, very long history of depression - no PND, thank god, but I'm sure they bear similarities. What you're describing sounds a bit more than just sleep deprivation. Given the role of seratonin in both sleep and depression it's very possible for prolonged sleep deprivation to cause depression. Being genuinely concerned that you might harm your child, and actually harming yourself, albeit in a minor way, is not just sleep deprivation, IMO. You don't necessarily 'feel sad' with depression of any kind which is why people can end up in a completely non-coping state before they're diagnosed.

I'm under no allusions that my antidepressants are playing a major role in helping me to cope with the lack of sleep, so there's no harm in getting it checked out.

blossom, its always hard to judge from one post but you do sound like you are having a hard time. Doesn't mean it's pnd by any stretch but at the very least it sounds like you need to find a way to let your dp help you more. Yes, it may mean he ends up a bit tired too but that's life, you can't do it all on your own.

I don't know if this is helpful but me and my dp have a kind of division of labour, which means we both know what we need to do when and avoids us needing to discuss it or worry about asking when we are all sleep deprived and rattie. So I do the night feeds (as I bf) and do the settling and most of the sitting awake in the night but dp does all the night nappy changes (I wake him up when one is required, he never ever complains) and when dd wakes up at 6am he takes her and allows me to stay in bed for a bit if I need to. On the days we're both at home he will often do most of the childcare at the moment and always let's me have at least a couple of hours nap to catch up on some sleep.

This set up seems to be working well for us and means that we both get through without losing the plot and also that we both feel supported and part of a team, which I know sounds a tad trite but makes a huge difference to me.

Perhaps you need to sit down with your dp and work out ways in which your dp can help you. I don't know what his work is or what his hours are like but even if it's just that he changes some nappies in the night and looks after DC on Sunday mornings so you can stay in bed for a bit this might be enough to make the difference. If you agree it then you can make sure you have an arrangement that works for both of you. Whether you have pnd or not he is going to have to start doing more or you are all going to end up in a pickle.

Also, my dd does the fingers I'm mouth thing when I'm settling her to sleep, it is bloody annoying!

<marks my place>

Oh you poor thing blossombath I know what it's like to feel crazed and frustrated wirh no sleep.

I had PND with DD1 and, although I know we are all different, it was pretty obvious to me that I had it (despite desperatley trying to deny it for some stupid reason) I cried every morning, didn't want to get out of bed, felt guilty for not wanting to get out of bed, did minimal interation with DD, felt guilty, went into interaction overboard, did nothing around the house, and disappeared to my bedroom as soon as DH got home.

I can honestly say I don't have it this time around (thank god) but that doesn't mean I don't get frustrated. DD2 has a habit of pinching me. Yesterday I lost my temper when she did it, shouted 'Ow!' really loudly and batted her hands away. Only you can know, but it really sounds like you were terribly sleep deprived and at the end of your tether perhaps, as Elphaba suggests you could have a word with your HV? (if she's any good! Thank god mine's marvellous!)

Well yesterday I managed to drag DD2 round Asda to do a full weekly shop. Got it all on the belt, packed it into my bags, and guess what?! Forgot my purse! I'm blaming my sleep deprived state for that Thank goodness my local Asda staff are fab! Really sympathetic and just kept my trolly to one side until I drove hone again! I'm so annoyed about the loss of petrol though! We are heavily rationed when it comes to petrol amd that combined with my nighttime 'get to fucking sleep' driving has reduced my weekly £25 allowance a bit!!

How is your DD Fish?

saymama my dp did exactly the same thing the other week. Came home from the shops empty handed and looking very sheepish

Just wondering if any of you lovely ladies had any advice for me...

8 month old LO. He was sleeping beautifully for about 3 months, 7pm-7am with no wakings or feeds, going down well for both naps and bedtimes. But since he started teething (about 3 or 4 weeks ago), and then got a cold, he has decided that 4am-5am is now his wake up time!!

I end up going into his room, picking him up, taking him into my bed where he won't sleep. Lays there wanting to play/pinch my face etc. Then it gets to about 6am and he cries until he falls asleep, which can take an hour sometimes!! Then I always wake him at 7am to have his bottle. Can anyone help? Should I just leave him to cry?

I can't tell you how much I'd pay for DS to sleep from 7pm until 4 or 5am, uninterrupted, in his own room...however...aren't you supposed to deal with early waking by making sure the first nap isn't until around 10am or something?

Thanks for the responses ladies, and for sharing your own experiences. I am pretty sure I don't have full on PND, just a mix of exhaustion and anxiety about returning to work etc. The anxiety is making it hard for me to sleep when DS is asleep so that isn't helping either. I have had CBT in the past for anxiety and it did help so maybe I will go to drs, though I worry they would just try and refer me to sleep clinic or similar for DS.

I know a big part is me letting go and accepting that DH will just have to be tired too. He was all keen to help more for the last two days of his holiday but now he has a stomach bug and is basically a write off. trying hard to remain rational and remind myself that it's not his fault but have to admit I did have a bit of a cry on yet another nap-walk in the rain to tescos today. Thankfully I remembered my wallet...though I have done that several times say, the staff in our local tesco think I'm totally mad.

Welcome on board visualise, I'm a softy so I probably wouldn't leave him to cry just yet - could you try sitting with him in his room so he isn't upset but knows its still night, or letting him play with some quiet toys in his own room with lights low. Hopefully he'll soon grow out of the early wakings!

oh and fish if you're about hope littlefish is doing ok

Seem to have missed a bit while on our Xmas trek. Home tomorrow and looking forward to it, apart from fact that DS has decided to drop his nap.

Ill catch up properly but Fish - hope you and baby fish are doing ok. So easy to happen but so scary for you. Something similar happened toDS when he was wee. Blossom sorry to hear you are having a rough time. Everyone has given great advice. It sounds like you need to give yourself a break if you can.

Sleeping still shit here. When we are finally home and DD is well and not teething for more than 2 days I am going to Do Something. 2014 then...

Wishing you all a happy and hopefully sleep filled new year...

I have to whinge here, otherwise I won't be able to resist posting sarcy comments...there are two threads in a couple of other forums from mums seeking advice who are 'shattered', 'sleep deprived', 'exhausted' and 'on their knees' because their babies are waking once, sometimes twice, a night for feeds.

I know it's not a competition, and I'm sure they're their own versions of 'exhausted' but AIBU to want to post, 'you don't know you're f---ing alive'?

OK, bitch back in the box now.

I know what you mean Elpheba!

I do think that sometimes people have some unrealistic expectations of how much babies sleep and don't seem to realise that it is normal for babies to wake in the night a couple of times. A couple of times a night I can live with, it's the waking every hour that kills me or waking and then not settling for 2 hours.

Hi Visualise, sorry to say it but as getting my dd to sleep for 4 hours in one go is cause for celebration in this house I don't think I am really qualified to offer advice to someone who has a baby that sleeps till 4-5am without waking. I think there are some early waking threads about so you might be better off posting in one of those.

I think visualise can be pretty certain that any suggestions we might make would be qualified by, 'but it didn't work for me'.

Tell you what, though, she's got a cracking good massage for a constipated baby, IIRC...

I wasn't sure if we were allowed to point out the irony of asking for help about an early waker from a load of mums who can barely make their babies sleep more than two hours at a time.

Poor Visualise I remember when my DD was sleeping all night but waking at 5am, and it felt completely exhausting. It's all a matter of what you're used to. My tip for you is: go to bed early. It will pass.

Fish that sounds awful, but like the wise PP's have said it could happen to anyone, I really hope babyfish is ok and not in too much pain.

Teething episode over and DD seems to be back on track regards her sleeping she is going down at 7 and waking 1or2 times til midnight, then sleeping til 5am, which she has now decided is her new get up time! Just when you think you're getting somewhere! Have tried everything to get her back to sleep but alas no luck. I just think a 5am wake up won't be so bad when I go back to work in 6weeks as I'll be getting up at 6am anyway - there's always a silver lining

Happy New Year to all!

Wow, just found this thread and am so pleased that it is quite 'normal' for a 9 month old to be waking frequently throughout the night.

DD used to sleep through on occasions and DP and I invented a rota where if she woke before 4am he would cuddle and re-settle and after 4am I would bf as I thought she might actually be hungry.

However although DP is still keeping to his side of the bargain DD has decided that whilst she appears to be asleep in his arms as soon as he puts her in the cot she is wide awake again and screaming. This can go on for 2 hours+ before he brings her to me as he has had enough and I have to feed her.

If anyone knows how to get her back into her cot I will be eternally grateful as co-sleeping isn't really an option as we don't have a spare bed for DP and ours isn't big enough for 3.

Finally catching up after Christmas. We were away for five nights during which dd's sleep got progressively worse, as the overstimulation and lack of routine got to her. Been back home 3 nights and as we've actually had almost two weeks with no teething or cold, thought we would start the new year with a but of night weaning. So I decided I'd feed first time she woke- usually about 10 and then send do in after that. And I am writing this now with a (probably misplaced!) Sense of optimism. So dd woke at 9.30 ish. I fed and she settled back to sleep. 2ND waking was11 so dh went in and some full on screaming ensured but only for just over 12 mins, after which she settled herself back to sleep. Sadly she was then awake 20 mins later but with another 15 mins if screaming, back to sleep. Next wake up was 3! No screaming but it took dh about 40 mins of sshing to get her sleeping. After which she sleepy till 7. Oh Mt God no feeding between 10 and 7! God knows whether this is really the beakthrough I'm hoping for as I'm sure she'll throw something else St us soon, but at least it won't just be me dealing with it anymo. re.g. Anyway thought if share the good news! Hope the new year brings sleeping babies for us all!

How old is yours again halfaglass? I keep making half-arsed attempts at nightweaning. I've got from 7-midnight a couple of nights now without feeding, but after that sticking a boob in is just too, too easy. I also keep hearing from various sources that seven months is too young for night weaning, but since there are those fabled babies who go 12 hours without a feed who are younger than mine...

dd seems to have started to drop some of her night feeds herself and now goes between about 12-6 without a feed, I think she has just finished a growth spurt. Unfortunatly she still wakes up, she just won't bloody feed back to sleep...whhaaaaaah Hope the night weaning works out better for you.

whoop is the sheet in the cot cold? dd hates sleeping on a cold sheet so she now sleeps on a fleecy blanket which seems to help with putting her down as it doesn't get as chilly in the night. You could also try putting a blanket round her before you put her down so she still feels snuggly and hugged once you let go. Just some ideas... I get a lot of practise at putting a baby down at the moment

I thought of a question I wanted to ask everyone lastnight but now I can't remember what it was...

at forgetful hear.

whoop does dd have a snuggly or cuddly toy? I find it much easier to transfer ds if I can shove his bedtime elephant in his arms as I lower him in.

Ds seems to randomly drop and then pick up feeds as his fancy takes him. Usually will go to about 1 before feeding, and the longer he can go the better it seems to be. But I agree that after a certain point feeding him bacl to sleep, if it works, is simply easiest option whether he really needs it or not

Visualise - I was just reading this thread and thought I would respond to you as I can totally identify where you are coming from. My 10 month old DS never slept 7am-7pm but slept 7-4am, then up for a wee feed before going back to 7am. He then dropped his feed but would wake up early, any time between 4 and 6 am. He sometimes cried but would usually just chat and play in his cot (loudly!).

Initially I would go in and check he had his dummy and that his nappy didn't need changed, then leave. If he got hysterical I would go back in to settle him but in general I left him. Sometimes it would take an hour or more for him to get back to sleep. I would then wake him at around 7am so that his day wasn't too affected iyswim. If he didn't go back to sleep, I would try and keep him going as long as I could til his usual nap time of 9am. Some advice on early waking says to curb the nap, which I sometimes did, but if I am honest sometimes I did let him catch up on the sleep because I also know that overtiredness can lead to early waking. I felt that it was very much a catch 22 situation - if you try to keep them going til nap time and then curb their nap, it can lead to overtiredness (and early waking) but if you don't, advice will tell you that they won't learn to sleep later and will just take an extension of their night time sleep at nap time. I played it by ear each day but I did try to avoid a very early nap if possible.

Just now DS either wakes at 4/5 am for a bit and then go back to sleep (eventually!) or sleep til 6ish. He seems to do a few nights sleeping through and then a few with an early waking. I know how frustrating it can be! Fwiw I didn't feed DS until at least 6am and this helped him realise that when he woke at 4/5am it was still night time.

PM me if you want to chat - I tried to avoid reading all the early waking advice and just tried different things to see what suited him.

Glad it's not just me HearMyRoar

Elphaba I know what you mean! I'd kill to go back to the days of DD just waking once in the night!

Not a great day for me here. The tiredness is really starting to bite. It's been over six weeks now of cough cough cry, cough cough cry. Last night could've been good but some fucker decided not just to have a few fireworks at midnight, but a full on hour long 'display'. Which of course woke up DD1...then DD2...then set off neighbour's house alarm...I feel awful for DD but I feel pretty crap for myself too. I'm waaay oversensitive, just got 'told off' for want of a better expression on another thread because I misunderstood. Really not a big deal but am so tired it's making me tearful. On the plus side DH is off for a whole two weeks starting tomorrow! I just hope he really hasn't caught DD's cold (he's claiming to 'feel it brewing') he's crap at being poorly, never fucking shuts up about it.

Plus DD1 was given a 'poorly' baby doll for Christmas. She's currently playing with it and it's setting my teeth on edge. And DH has been locked in the kitchen batch cooking for the past two hours. Usefull I onow but I could really do without looking after DD2 right now. The whinging is getting too me

I'm sorry, pity party over!

HearMyRoar I did wonder if the sheet felt cold on her head as she is in a grobag to try and stop her feeling the change in temperature. I think her main problem is the feeling of falling as we lower her into the cot but I can't think of a way round this.

blossom Dd doesn't have a cuddly but I think she should have one now shes less likely to put it over her face . I will try her with one tonight, first night of a new year and all that.

Sorry about all the typos in the last message - stupid phone. Elphaba, my DD is 9 1/2 months - in fact 10 months in the middle of next week - so a bit older than yours I think. I did feel she was ready to drop feeds - she's eating solids pretty well and I was occasionally getting away without feeding her back to sleep, but I had been (probably unduly) worried about her getting hungry. But she seemed fine this morning, and more enthusiastic about her morning feed and breakfast than she usually is, which is a bonus.

Hear that's my biggest worry about nightweaning - that she doesn't sleep any better, but we have no magic way of settling her. Fingers crossed when she stops getting milk, she decides to stop waking up. Well, we can but hope. Currently hoping that tonight is as relatively smooth as last night.

SayMama sorry to hear about the coughing. We too have had many a night where we anxiously listen to DD coughing over the monitor, praying that it doesn't actually wake her up. It is grim.

Hope everyone has good nights.

Pity party here too. Back from the Xmas tour and DD completely beside herself. Will not settle. And I'm desperate to go to bed. Frankly makes me wonder whether its worth ever leaving home..

Saymama This godforsaken, bastard, arsehole, twattish (avert your gaze ladies) cunt of a cough is into its 12th week here. GP did prescribe antibiotics for it at one stage, which DS spat out, which then made me cry, but with the benefit of hindsight they wouldn't have done anything anyway. I think it's an evil virus going around, although GP has subsequently prescribed an inhaler for DS because he thinks it's asthma; it crossed my mind on a few occasions that it could feasibly be mild whooping cough. Whatevs - I think it's finally on its way out. He coughs more than he should I think, but at least I'm not having to hold him upright for an hour several times a night waiting for it to stop, nor is the cough waking him ten minutes after I've finally got him back in his cot.

As someone on the Health forum said to me when I went on there desperate for answers, 'you've just got to ride the mo fo out'.

I think I might adopt 'you've just got to ride the mo fo out' as my mantra for surviving night waking

Despite having a great day with lots of fresh air and exercise, good healthy eating, and a lovely easy bed time following a long feed, dd has still woken up an hour after I put her down. Aargh! I can only conclude that nothing I do makes the smallest difference. Ho hum...

halfaglass can i ask how many feeds your Dd has over 24 hours please?

My Dd is about a week younger than yours and has 4-5 bf a day and usually only one of these is during the night.

I am wondering how and when to drop feeds as she eats 3 good sized meals a day but i give her a feed inbetween instead of snacks.

After reading on here about giving protein etc for tea i have given it a go and will report back if she sleeps any better.

Can I ask you all what you do about naps? I'm really keen to nightwean/ do some sort of sleep training (DD now nearly 11 months) but am paranoid that her night wakings are my fault because she doesn't get enough day sleep. Although the occasional days when she sleeps really well she certainly doesn't go through the night, so maybe not...

I try but can usually only get 20-30 mins max in am, approx 2.45/3 hrs after she wakes and then another nap 3 hrs later. If I am on hand to resettle that might last 1.5 hrs if Im lucky. Bedtime always early. Don't know if that's a normal amount of napping or what...

Ouzo how was night 2??

7mo DS is down to two naps a day now when he's at home. I waved the white flag a couple of months ago and just let him have them on me - he feeds to sleep and stays there. It's the only way I can get a nap longer than 20 minutes into him. Prior to this it was three 20 minute (max) naps in the pram after feeding me to sleep and me doing a stealthy transfer into the cot but he'd usually wake up grumpy and be a timebomb until I could get him asleep again.

On nursery days, they rock him to sleep in a pram and his naps will be anything from 15 minutes long (rolls eyes) to 40 minutes long. They'll do two or three naps with him like this - seems to be mainly two these days, though.

Neither makes the slightest, least difference to the quality (or lack thereof) of his nighttime sleep. All it might do is affect his bed time - if his last nap finished at 3pm, we start bedtime at 6:30, unless he starts getting sleepy earlier. Sometimes he refuses to nap after 1:30pm which means an extra early bedtime.

Hello ladies and Happy New Year! I haven't the time to catch up much, but just wanted to say hi and hope that you're all coping alright. We were away at the holidays and funny enough, DD usually sleeps better at GP's than an home. I think it's the sea air...

We had a couple of nights where she was doing a 3 hour chunk or two, without needing hourly resettling, which was great. She's definitely reduced the night feeding a bit, and has been pretty happy to go from 11-5 without milk. It's all the restlessness and frequent waking that is the killer. At least she's usually easy to settle, and a cuddle / shush pat / dummy will usually give us another hour or two in the night.

She is super desperate to crawl, or be on the move somehow. I'm hoping that once she's able to release more physical energy during the day that the nights will improve.

Mitsouko I was given that very same piece of advice today by a friend once DD starts crawling/moving etc she will expend more energy, nap better and therefore sleep the night through!! So I'm hanging on to that hope as I crawl round the floor like an idiot trying to show her what to do, she thinks it hilarious

suchanamateur naps are all over the place here DD is nearly 9months and according to anything I've read should nap twice a day 2-21/2 hrs total! But DD still likes napping x3. Depending on her wake time, and early waking is our problem at the mo (5am)! She will nap 30mins at some point in the morning I've tried dropping this nap but it didnt work!! Then she'll have a bottle at 10am and usually nap around 11-11.30 for an hour (in buggy or car), lunch at 1 then another nap at 2-2.30 of 1-1/2 hrs. I just wish she had set nap times and would nap in her cot. But I bet if she did she would still be waking through the night regardless

Sorry that was 1-11/2hrs at 2-2.30

Hi all - can I just say how nice it is to be in the company of people whose babies don't sleep? In the last two days we've seen various friends, all of whose babies have slept well. One of them is only about 3 months old and although his mum kindly didn't tell me exactly how well he is sleeping (she knows a bit about our trials here), it sounded like it was pretty good .

However, night 2 of night weaning gave me a bit more grounds for (cautious) optimism. DD woke and squawked about 9pm but we waited a couple of minutes, and miracle of miracles, she resettled herself (v rare at that time in the evening). She then slept till 11pm and she hasn't done 7 to 11pm without our intervention for I don't know how long! We had agreed I would feed if she woke before 11pm, so I did that. She then slept till 5am with just another squawk about 12.30. 6 hours! 6 whole hours!! Unbelievable.

So DH went in at 5 but she wasn't settling so once it got a bit closer to 6am, we agreed she was probably getting hungry and I fed her again. We then all went back to sleep for an hour or so. All in all, a good night! I really want to hope, against all experience, that this might be a straight line improvement! Imagine if she slept 6 hours on the trot again tonight, or even 7. However I must not count chickens etc etc.

And incidentally her naps have been rubbish today - just over an hour split between a morning and afternoon nap. We always battle to get her down for her first nap of the day, the second is relatively straightforward.

whoop DD had 4 feeds in 24 hours yesterdaY - first thing in morning, mid afternoon, and before bed plus the one at 11pm. I have encouraged her to drop mid morning feed with an eye to returning to work in three weeks. I offered formula but in the end just replaced with a snack. Now to switch afternoon feed to formula....

Yay! Well done half and little half. You give us all hope

If it makes you feel better about your friend dd slept 7-8 hours every night between about 3 weeks to 3.5 months, and then without warning decided to start waking every 45 MNS throughout the night) so your friend is probably being sensibly cautious about mentioning how well her DC sleeps

Dd usually naps on one of us and naps really well, I am starting to wonder if part of the problem is that she is napping to long. Her general routine is morning nap starting around 8:30 (anything between 30mins to 2 hours) then afternoon nap starting about 1:30 (between 1 to 2.5 hours). She woke up early this morning and then I decided to put her down for the morning nap ( so I could also have a lie down) so she did a 30min nap about 8.15am and then 1.5 hours at about 12:30pm. I'm interested to see if she sleeps better tonight for only having 2 hours rather then the 3-4 she often does.

Well done ouzo!! Roar is right you do give us hope.

I just don't know about naps. Would be interested to see if there was any difference to your night Roar. DD got 25 mins this morning and then 2 hours (albeit with resettling) this afternoon. Put her to bed 3 hrs and a half hours after end of that nap (6.15) and she cried hard on an off for 10 or so mins then settled. Only to wake up 40 minutes later absolutely screaming and screaming. I think that means she was over tired when she went down but I can't realistically get much more sleep than that in te say or put her to ed much earlier. Arghhh...

Or am I over thinking this...? DH keeps telling me that DD isn't a problem to be solved. But I've just read too damn much. Step away from the Internet and books, lady. My dirty secret is no less that 10 sleep books...

haven't had time to properly catch up on nap discussions but just wanted to say such I am just like you - too many sleep books and internet trawls mean I am always looking for the answer which is probably just 'ride the mo fo out'.

Also good to hear success ouzo, my ds is more or less the same age as yours but not so good on eating solids. I need to start replacing feeds with snacks properly as back to work in under two weeks, but popping a boob out is so much easier than food and the associated clean up...

Will go back and read properly how you did the night weaning, and wait with fingers crossed for progress updates.

Yup suspect 'ride the mo fo out' really is the only way, with maybe a little bit of ouzo inspired night weaning. Blah.

Apologies for my dreadful typos. Fat fingers on iPhone..

Ok, so RE naps DS (nearly 10mo) has either three short naps (20-45mins each) or one short and one long nap a day. More often the former, I have never had much success extending naps - once walked for 90 mins and was asleep for only the first 20. I do find he sleeps better if he's managed to get some good naps in, which doesn't bode well for tonight: 2 very short naps today caused, I think, by another tooth combined with nasty cold/cough.

the cough and cold also mean I won't attempt any night weaning stuff till he's well over them, though DH and I have agreed a night split where hea deals with pre2am wakings and I do post 2am, but last night he spent from 1-2am trying to settle DS who kept coughing himself awake. Then I went in at 2am and fed - so a bit of a failure so far but hey ho. Also agreed we'll take turns to lie in on weekends, so hopefully that, plus trying to manage my anxiety, will mean better sleep for me and fewer early morning meltdowns.

blossom , sounds like a really good plan. Hopefully just knowing that you're both in it together and that you will get that lie in at the weekend will help to make it seem less relentless. Good luck

My dp looks on tolerantly and makes the occasional supportive noise while I go through phases of stressing about sleeping, bless him. He says we should think of her as a 'force of nature', which is certainly an apt description.

We were talking about the whole 'everyone's baby sleeps more then mine' thing yesterday and he pointed out that when he speaks to people with older kids (say 5 and over) loads of them have said how awful their sleep was when they were dd's age, yet when he speaks to people who have kids similar in age to us they all give the impression of having great sleepers. Make of that what you will [nods sagely]

I would quite like to go to bed but dd is currently stretched out across my bit of the bed and I don't dare move her.

Well, we had a pretty crap night but we do have another tooth. Whoop!

Ah, teeth. The tombstones to my sleep. DS has had four massive lumps along his top row for about a month now and you can see edges and tips if canines desperate to get through. This is one of the many things that people have cited as a barrier to him sleeping - 'once those teeth are through, he'll start sleeping' along with 'once he starts crawling' and 'once he's at nursery full time'. That's quite a to-do list.

Mind you we've passed the 'once he gets past four months', 'once he starts on solids' and 'once he moves into his own room' guarantees of sleep with no change whatsoever, so forgive me if my optimism has long since dried up.

God, there's two narky sleep threads going on in AIBU and Breast and Bottle Feeding. I seriously need to keep off those things. They turn me into such a bitter martyr-cow.

I like to write massive long ranting replies to threads like that and then not post them. All the satisfaction of telling them where to go with out any of the resulting arguments

I was just wondering if anyone has tried camomile tea? After all camomile is basically the active ingredient in teething powders and I had read that tests had shown it helped babies with colic. Since dd seems to be suffering with both teething and terrible wind I was thinking it might be worth giving her some as her drink with dinner. Any thoughts?

I have to stay well clear of those threads. My bl

Balls. My blood pressure can't take them.

I think camomile is worth a shot- certainly shouldn't do harm. Have heard fennel tea also good for wind.

IME teeth makes the wakings more screamy and loud but I have my suspicions about them being the root cause of sleep problems. And they'll be teething for at least another year so its too depressing if that's the case.

I bought a box of chamomile tea for the purposes of drugging DS into a stupor assisting DS to sleep but haven't yet been brave enough to try. Should we make a pact?

Off to practice NOT hitting post...(except for this one)

Hear, hear - I've really got to stay away from those threads as well!

I pretty much just stay in here, or in "High Need Baby Support" thread. Any of you who haven't popped in there yet, please feel welcome. It's full of lovely people and I've received some great support in there over the past year.

It's a deal on the camomile tea! Pretty sure i have some left over from when I had terrible pregnancy insomnia. I give dd a sippy cup of water with her dinner so will just swap this for tea tonight. We can compare notes in the morning.

I think she might have got 2 through (front top) but she is a squealy monster if I so much as look at her mouth let alone have a poke about so can't be sure.

Camomile tea? That's something I hadn't thought of - will be interested to hear if it works!

Slightly misplaced optimism yesterday. I've definitely proved to myself that DD doesn't need feeding at night. Again she went from 9.30 till 8 (!) without a feed. However, she didn't settle nearly as well last night - awake at 1 and DH settled her after about half an hour. Then awake again at 3ish, but this time would not settle. DH is leaving her in cot and sshing her, as we've found when he picks her up she tends to scream at night, but she was dropping off then waking up as he left the room. We took it in turns to sshhh till about 5am when I finally picked her up and she went straight to sleep, but without feeding. In hindsight, I don't know why we didn't pick her up earlier, but I think we had a plan fixed in our head, and were too addled by lack of sleep to change our minds! Anyway, once we were all back to sleep she then didn't wake up till 8 so we caught up a bit.

So I'm really hoping that we haven't solved one problem (feeding) just to create another one (not going back to sleep). Ah well, we shall see. Today she's had better naps so I'm hopeful tonight might be calmer. I'll report back tomorrow.

Hear - glad the tooth has broken through, hope your little one is happier now. Elphaba I took a look at those threads and now really wish I hadn't - just annoying!

One of the many, many problems of a non-sleeping baby is you find yourself so desperate to keep entertained in the mind-numbing wee-small hours that you end up reading shit like this. To summarise, most babies sleep through the night by six months and the ones who don't are all breastfed boys with depressed mothers. As it's the Daily Mail, it's probably the fault of immigrants, New Labour and the EU as well. <facepalm>

DS took a few sips of chamomile tea. This is the sound of me not holding my breath...

dd is camomiled up and tucked up asleep so we will see.

Have you seen the Isis site http://www.isisonline.org.uk it's my favourite and I always go look at it when I'm depressed about dd not sleeping.

... And I forgot to say. Step away from the daily mail. It only ends in tears.

DD is only 6mo but another parent told me that things were supposed to calm down and get easier after this point.

it appears from this thread that that it's NOT the case. DD has bern getting worse and worse since 4 months.

6mo growth spurt is currently whipping my butt

Same here MamaCam, same here.

J'adore The Daily Fail, HearMyRoar! I NEED to know what Kate's wearing on an hourly basis and how my hard earned taxes are being squandered by single mothers and Poles!

Awake!

<adds camomile tea to the teetering pile of failed strategies>

Ho hum, I forgot to click the 'make stuff links' think. Try again http://www.isisonline.org.uk

I just managed a whole bath without being dragged out by the screams of a waking baby, which was nice.

Sorry to be the bearers of bad news for you mamacam, 6 months came and went for me with no noticeably improvement. I've decided to assume that she isn't going to sleep until she is about 4 (according to my mum this is when I finally slept through) that way I won't be constantly crushed by disappointed every time a milestone passes and she is still waking every 2 hours [sob]

God damn it, I did it again! www.isisonline.org.uk

Hi ladies, may I join? (I may had joined before but I'm so tired I forget)
DD is almost 8 months. She hit the 4 month sleep regression hard and never looked back! On a good night she'll wake 6 times. We feed to sleep and after bringing her into bed during a holiday a few months ago, we have never managed to get her out again!
She is sailing through milestones without any progress to her snoozing. It's maddening. Must have bought every sleep training book under the sun, all piled up waiting to solve our problems but DD is just far too demanding and I'm just too darn sleepy to make any sense of them.
Is gets better right?

I'm afraid you've come to the wrong place if you want reassurance that it gets better bonbonpixie...

Can I just say that if this cough was a person I would take great, great pleasure in shooting it, starting with the least-lethal places first to ensure an agonising death?

That article makes me angry in many ways. I like the ISIS site too, as much as anything because it sort of says, IRIC, that sleep research is all rather sketchy as you can't exactly do proper double blind repeatable tests with babies and sleep deprived parents. It makes me feel a bit better knowing that really there is no universal right and wrong, no matter what some Daily Fail expert thinks. You just muddle through finding things that help you survive until the magical day when they sleep more than 1/2/4 hours in a row (delete according to current state of your DC's sleep 'regression'.)

Being the desperate sheep I am, I too now own chamomile tea but hadn't decided when to give it to DS last night, so discouraged (though not surprised) to learn it had no effect on BabyElphaba. Maybe you need to try for a bit, build the sleep associations? Anyway, next time we have a new tooth I may try it. Got his latest one on Wed, randomly not the one next to the centre top tooth he already had, but the second one along. So he now has a tooth, a gap, and a tooth. He will look like a little school boy losing his teeth already. Or a thug. A cute, chubby, sleepless thug .

Oh, and milestones make no difference for us either. I still live in hope, though. He's trying to walk atm. Maybe this will be the one that ends all the sleep shenanigans [optimist emoticon].

Oh yes, me too Blossom. Walking will solve all ills <hollow laughter>. How old is yours?

Really struggling now DS has dropped his daytime nap. The day is so bloody long and everyday I have to risk leaving 2.75 yo DS on his own near pens, walls and other trouble while I resettle DD to make sure she naps for more than 10 minutes. He watches far too much TV...

DS wouldn't touch the chamomile tea tonight. I swear that kid knows what's going on. DH and I took advantage of him being at nursery today to formulate A Plan for his sleep which we steeled ourselves to start with tonight. An hour later, nursery rings up asking us to come and get DS because he's running a raging temp, ergo we now feel awful and have lost the momentum to do anything. I should have checked more carefully for a hot water bottle concealed about his person when we got him as I'm sure he knows we were plotting against him (or, more specifically, his sleep).

I've gone to collect him a few other times and they've been trying to get him off for a nap (them: rocking pram; him: roaring furiously). I keep meaning to ask them if he flips them the bird behind my back when I foil their dastardly schemes to get him asleep.

Ho hum. Off for another nice, long, endlessly interrupted night...

Last night was a bit of a mix of extremes. Started well, then woke and wouldn't settle for over 2 hours about 10, then slept 4 hours straight and only woke once till 6;30. Also she didn't feed at all between 12 to 6;30 which is something of a record.

I don't know what to expect tonight.'she is full of camomile tea again and ate loads for dinner so we will see.

We've got screaming tonight but she's well, eaten loads, slept ok ish today so its Mean Mummy time - DH is out and I've got to deal with DS. Checking every 5 minutes. Fucking miserable.

I was starting to hope I would soon be leaving this thread (no offence, ladies!) as the truly horrific nights over Christmas (while staying away, DH ill, DS unsettled and DD waking hourly, sometimes just to scream at me) I finally worked out were down to DD having an ear infection and now we're back home and DH is better I hoped it would get better. I even had a night of only two waking, only to be followed immediately by more hourly wakings, bouts of crying and generally 'I want to be awake' time (her - I want to be asleep, obviously!).

Is anyone else struggling to tell the difference between 'I'm so tired, how dare you try to make me go to sleep' crying, 'I'm hungry' crying and 'I'm a bit poorly' crying?

Yeah - I've always felt a bit inadequate when I've been reassured by books/others that you'll quickly learn the different meanings of your baby's cries. I can confess to only a patchy, ball-park guess most of the time.

There may have been times when if you had been in the vicinity of ,my bedroom at 3am you may have heard me shout 'please! Just learn to talk and tell me what you want child!'. I tend to just do random stuff and hope one of them works. [Hmm]

My db just came round with his dd (who is 5). Dd had a fabulous time playing with her but has gone to bed an hour later than usual, which could result in disaster.

DS was so crazy overtired by the time he went to bed (an hour earlier than usual must be this temperature-causing disease because I managed to time his naps OK today) he wouldn't even feed to sleep. Got him to fall asleep in his cot using a strategy from the No Cry Sleep Solution and he's stayed asleep for almost 90 mins Maybe tonight's going to be one of those random, rare nights of few wake-ups he taunts me with every now and then...

Elphaba hope you got some sleep, Hear hope the night wasn't too disastrous.

So after a couple of hopeful nights in the night-weaning experiment, things haven't been going so well in the ouzo household. DD has definitely been sleeping for longer periods of time (hooray!) but the downside is that we're getting two hour spells in the middle of the night when nothing will get her back to sleep. DH goes in and sshs, but she keeps waking up again. After an hour of this last night, we agreed maybe she was hungry so I fed her. But it didn't send her back to sleep . In the end she was sitting on my lap and giggling so i put her back in the cot, where she did eventually go back to sleep. By this time we'd all been awake for 2 hours. I think I actually feel worse right now than I do after getting up 4 times in the night.

Plus her naps have been dreadful the last couple of days, perhaps no coincidence. We are really struggling to get her down for her first morning nap. She just fights and fights it even when we can see she's tired. This then means her post-lunch nap is put back loads and she just isn't sleeping as long. I'm so bored of it all to be honest. Although I'm worried about going back to work in 2 weeks I will not miss the 4 days a week when I don't have to get this baby to nap.

Not sure what we're going to do now about night time sleep. Feeling really stuck again. DD finally learned to crawl properly yesterday so maybe she'll exhaust herself today <ever hopeful>.

Oh dear half, what a pickle! Maybe its just that the sleeping long stretches is such a novelty it's going to take a bit for her to adjust. [Optimistic face]

Last night was pretty average in the end but this morning she is an overtired mess. Dp is giving her a morning bath to try and calm her down a bit in the hope she will then have her nap.

Well maybe DS wasn't overtired last night and is entering a new and improved method of sleep-resistance. He's bouncing off the walls again tonight despite the foolproof bedtime routine which usually knocks him out. I've just put him in his cot and he's beating seven bells out of his toy dog. Bet it won't be nearly as funny at 1am...

Just seen this antidote to the Daily Fail rubbish. Love it when I find something which agrees that I am not a bad parent because my DS still wakes up in the night.

Good blog post blossombath. I've forwarded it to a friend whose almost-11 month old wakes constantly as well. I have been actively checking myself when I find myself saying anything like 'DS's sleep problem'. It's only a problem for me - he is perfectly normal. He is going along with several billion years of evolution that says babies need to sleep next to their mothers and nurse as and when.

Sadly, cavewomen didn't have to work 37.5 hour working weeks. Starting to feel sick at a) having to go back in four weeks and b) having to go back on so little sleep, so we're looking down the barrel at yet more sleep training I really don't want to but I just don't know how I'll cope without some longer stretches of sleep.

Please may I join?

DD is turning 10 months in a week; she was sleeping 12 hours a night from a few weeks old (and dreamfeeding) and I thought I had won the lottery. In fact, I remember thinking to myself it was... wait for it.... BORING! (we co-sleep and I never got so much sleep as in those 3 months)

Clearly deserved what was coming, she was hit by 4 month sleep regression and just got progressively worse. On a "good night" she'll wake up 4 times, on a bad one it can run up to every hour or every 45ms. It's a delight.

She wakes up, whines a bit, I give her the dummy back or let her feed a bit (she's clearly not hungry, it's just a quick comfort thing) and then we do it all again.

I'm so resigned, I don't believe these developmental leeps/regressions will get better before she's 18 months, so I'm just in survival mode at this stage.

I also know I'll never do any form of CC and the "No Cry Sleep Solution" doesn't work with DD because she's happy sleeping next to me, on her bedside cot or anywhere else (even without me). She just seems to wake up loads in the middle of the night, that's all. sigh

Welcome to the crew! Our mantra is 'you just gotta ride that mo fo out' so it sounds like your general resignation and pessimistic attitude will fit right it

Dd was amazingly awful Sunday night but only woke 4 times last night (whoop!). We shall see what tonight will bring.

Love the blog article blossom, it rather reflects my views on it all really. Though I also agree with ephaba that the problem is that our lifestyles just don't always make it possible to deal with these natural sleep habits and remain sane. I think that parents (OK, let's face it, mostly women) are expected to do so much more on their own then they ever were before. Its no wonder we end up feeling we cant cope and often feel there must be something wrong when really our DC are acting in a perfectly normal way.

Hi there, PoppyAmex

I'm re-trying the No Cry Sleep Solution at the moment and I appear (for this week at least) to have broken his habit of waking up 40 minutes after going into his cot. It's more like 90 minutes now but, still, small victories. He's got a stinking cold at the moment which he's kindly passed onto me so I'm still resorting to co-sleeping from the second or third wake-up onwards, mainly because I feel like 50 shades of shit and haven't the stamina or health to keep it up all night. I've also been able to settle him with a pat-shh or a cuddle (while co-sleeping) rather than a feed every time. Not that that's really an achievement since he's mainly still waking up as much but three feeds last night down from six or more is some kind of progress, isn't it??

Can I join please? DS is 8mo on Sunday; like so many of you hit the 4m regression and teething and has never managed to sleep through since. He's good at going down after a feed at 6.30-7pmish. On a good night we'll get two wake-ups, where he would have a feed and be pretty much straight down afterwards. On a bad night he'll wake every couple of hours, or not want to go back to sleep after waking up. He's breastfed and has always been fed when he wakes in the night. If I know he doesn't NEED food or that he's woken due to teething, a loud noise etc I can generally cuddle him back to sleep, but after midnight he generally wants a feed to settle. I go back to work next month and am worried how I'm going to feel!

Hi ballroom, welcome to the misery rooms

Another cheery blog by the same chap who told us what we already knew: self settling is a big fat lie. Now he says we are good parents because our babies wake up - hooray!

Any reduction in feed and/or extension of sleep is to be celebrated elphaba, here have a victory and .

Have stopped worrying about work - I may be exhausted but nothing new there and at least I won't spend all day wrestling DS to sleep or following him round the living room as he destroys/evades all attempts to keep him from dangerous things. Still struggling with feelings of anger/frustration and, honestly, hopelessness about ever getting to relax/sleep again. So a few hours out of this environment will be good, I think.

How is everyone else doing?

Yay! I am clearly a super sensitive mother, dd just doesn't know how lucky she is

On a happy note dd has now slept 40mins for her morning nap all on her own in our bed 2 days in a row! This might not sound like much but she has napped on laps since forever and 40 mins is her standard morning nap even when we are holding her, so I no longer have to feel guilty or deal with over tiredness if I put her down. Yesterday I hoovered the living-room (oh the glamour ). Now I just need to get brave enough to put her down for her longer afternoon nap.

bloosom, I actually found that I was looking forward to being back at work after time off at xmas/new year for exactly those reasons. Even when it's really stressful at least it's a change. Also I generally get a lunch break and can talk to real grown-up people about proper grown-up things. I think I am much more able to deal with dd's terrible sleep when I have a few days a week at work to think about other things.

Thanks for the welcome <flops down>

I can offer a suggestion for naps (we have those sorted, thankfully).

DD only ever slept 45m naps, down to the minute and someone on MN suggested I try the "Wake to Sleep" method and although I was sceptical I gave it a go because she was clearly tired during the day.

It was a miracle cure, but I think it only works if you have a consistent baby who wakes up always at the same time, so I was lucky there.

I have no brain power to explain the details but here's a link with details.

I started with the morning nap and after 4 days moved on to the afternoon one and save a few exceptions, she now sleeps 1h:30m to 2h. Unfortunately her night wakings have no discernable pattern, so no help there.

Yeah - your link didn't work (for me, anyway) but you jiggle 'em up just before they're due to wake up then they wake slightly and fall into a deeper sleep? Tried it every day for a week and it worked once for DS, so I can only assume it was a fluke. Glad something worked for you though Good job HearMyRoar as well! It's amazing how nice it is getting jobs done without a baby attached to you or fussing in a highchair.

Well, I had primed DH for starting gradual withdrawal on Friday night but I've decided I'm going to stick with part time co-sleeping and nudging on with the NCSS stuff. I have no faith that GW will stick any more this time than it did last time and I just can't face the screaming again.

To that end, I have implemented a 'Toughen-the-Fuck-Up Elphaba' programme for myself to prepare for working full time on no sleep. DS is now on three full days of nursery a week (building up to the five he'll be doing) and I am not napping on those days. I'm exercising like a fiend, batch cooking like the WI's finest and generally keeping busy so my body gets used to the idea of work and not naps. Tomorrow I am off to see the Les Mis movie and on Monday I'm cashing in on the gym, lunch and spa day voucher Father Christmas brought me

Yes, that's the one. I think you need a fair degree of luck as the "jiggling" has to be done 10ms before they're due to wake up.

I'm seriously in awe of you going back to work so sleep deprived - your "toughen the fuck up" program sounds hardcore (especially the no napping part) but sensible and it's a good thing you have some treats to look forward to.

<refrains to mention nothing cheers self up and the only thing I'd consider a "treat" at this stage would be 5 hours of sleep>

Seriously though, 5 hours is not much to ask, is it? <eyes DD>

I'm not entirely sure the co-sleeping makes much difference to her quality of sleep but at least I don't have to reach all the over to the bedside cot 200 times a night, so I'm sticking with it part-time too.

Are your DC all night weaned or do you still feed during the night? I'm hugely guilty of that, but feel anything that gets her back to sleep in 2 minutes is worth it. Am I creating a rod for my own back?

blossom thanks for the link, clearly we're superior mothers with amazing nurturing powers.

I'm going to an Osteopath on Tuesday and failing that might be trying some Voodoo the week after.

The only thing that really keeps me going is the (unfounded) belief that DD wil be sleeping through before she's 2 years old.

I don't believe in rods for backs. I think its all twaddle invented to make you feel crap just as you thought you had worked out a way of dealing with life. It's only a problem if it's a problem for you. <bangs gavel>

I feed at night if dd wants it as she doesn't have any milk while I'm at work so I figure she probably needs it. I also co-sleep, not because I have any illusions that it makes her sleep better but because I'm buggered if I'm getting out of bed 6 times a night.

<quakes at Elphaba's self boot camp>

Hear well done on the nap. So nice to have personal space, even if its just to Hoover.

Welcome and commiserations others.

Well, I'm seriously fucking fed up. DH and I snapped a few days ago and agreed a get tough approach with DD. I was just struggling too much with a non napping toddler and the tiredness. So CC and cold turkey on night feeds (please don't hate me...). And it was, albeit painfully and with massively raised blood pressure, starting to work. Last night (3) she slep 6.30-5.45. Couldn't believe it. But then today she's clearly getting sick again. We've had all of about 4 healthy days since October. And I won't sleep train while she's ill so we've had to abandon all that hideousness and presumably back to square fucking one. I put her to bed at half 5 this evening because she refused food and was clearly struggling, despite sleeping a fairly decent length at lunch. God knows what tonight holds.

Ah, PoppyAmex...the osteopath. We tried that too. I was hugely skeptical beforehand and my position remains as unchanged as DS's sleeping habits. Seriously, I hope it works for you but the 'science' is questionable (though harmless).

I'm trying to nightwean and he's going from 6:30/7 until 11/midnight without a feed, but he's still waking up just as much (around three or four times) in that time. After midnight...well...by that time I'm a basket case and it's me and DS into the spare bedroom and a boob in his face whenever he squeaks. I get more sleep after midnight but I'm getting him to start the night in his cot in the outrageous vain naive hope that he might gradually go for longer stretches there and ultimately stay. I suppose I could try and bite the bullet and settle him in his cot the entire night but I just don't really see the point because all I'm succeeding in doing is getting less sleep myself. Lordy knows it's not improving his.

suchanamateur No hate, just deep empathy. You get a plan, you screw your courage to the sticking place and....DC gets sick. You start a plan, you start getting somewhere....DC gets sick, and you feel like World's Greatest Mummy for doing sleep training with a baby who was coming down with something. We did CC with DS for a week, then stopped when he was diagnosed with a chest infection. (Un)fortunately we had made no progress to undo, but I felt like a total bee-atch. I initially started nightweaning this time with a view to doing CC once he wasn't feeding anymore at night but I just can't bring myself to do it again, as I can just see the 9 month sleep regression/separation anxiety/teeth undoing it completely.

My tune may be changed once again when I'm back at the coal face. We'll see.

Night night all.

*World's Greatest Mummy was irony, by the way, in case the sleep training police are watching and start sending me hate PMs.

Last night we got a stretch of 6.45pm-12am, woohoo! Then further wake-ups at 2, 4.30, and 6.10, after which he decided he was up for the day. SIGH. He had feeds at all of those and was definitely hungry at the 12am and 2am wake-ups. I think the other two were down to teething pain. After midnight cuddles don't seem to work and he always wants a bf.

Congratulations ballroom! That's over 5 hours in one go. You win the special gold star for baby sleepingness. <pulls party popper and dons special hat>

I'm going to have a bath now. It's going to be amazing!

Wow! Five uninterrupted hours is the official, scientific definition of 'sleeping through the night'! You can now be all smug when people ask, 'Does he sleep through the night?' 'Why, yes,' you can reply, 'Yes, he does.' <stifles yawn>

Elphaba - wouldn't worry. They'll be too busy sending them to me.

Ah my fellow sleepless zombies, glad I found you!

Dd2 is 10.5 months and since she started teething at 6 months she has not slept through once (but at least she did before unlike her older sister who didn't until 22 months when I stopped bfing).

Last night she fed at 8, 9.30, 11.30, 2.30 and didn't settle till 3.45, then 5.30, 6 and then slept till 9.30 this morning.

Feel bad for 3.5 year old dd1 as she is a complete chatterbox, but all I am capable of first thing is feeding them then staring blankly into space for an hour before I tackle the ever increasing backlog of household chores.

At least the kinect for the xbox arrived today so I can let dd1 tire herself out using that tomorrow.

Howdy Stitch. Pull up a beanbag.

Co-sleeping from 9:15 tonight - I jinxed myself by saying he's in his cot until midnight. He's wanted boob and no solids all day, though, so maybe those four teeth which have been bulging out if his top gums for weeks may finally be about to show themselves.

Night night all. Again.

Congratulations came too soon! Has been awake screaming since 9.15. Has nodded off on my shoulder twice but screaming has commenced as soon as he's gone back in the cot.

<dons sleeping party hat and parks self near nibbles>

Hooray ballroom, did you manage to get some good sleep in that five hour stretch? My problem is getting to sleep early enough to make the most of the pre midnight sleep (or pre 2am, which is when DH is on duty until).

elphaba I am in awe, especially of the batch cooking: DS will be eating pouches and cobbled together meals for the first few weeks I'm back at week I'm sure! Enjoy the spa!

such, maybe after illness ends it won't be square one but you can pick up and DD will continue getting better <hopeful>. Either way hope she gets better soon, don't beat yourself up over cc or cold turkey - we all know it's not something you do lightly.

Thanks blossom. If it makes you feel any better, DD pretty much lives on squeezy tubes and Im on a career break with no immediate prospect of return to work. Has backfired a bit though as I realised she pretty much won't eat anything out of non squeezy so have to pretend to squeeze food out - like baked beans, peas and even the occasional tangerine segment. Good thing she hasn't reached the 'Mummy is pulling the wool over my eyes milestone' or I'd be fucked. Couldn't make her sleep worse though..

such my DS likes to suck the food out himself, I am sure this is very bad for him somehow but can't bring self to ask anyone. I try to view it as BLW - he just chucks the half eaten pouch on floor if he's full/finished so I know when he's done...

Oh, pouches...a little bit of me dies whenever I give those to DS almost daily, because commercial baby food was one of the many things I was 'never going to do'.

The list of things I was never going to do, but have, is lengthening hourly...
- BFing on demand (I was going to feed on schedule...<falls about laughing hysterically>)
- Co-sleeping (never, ever, said I...but last night DS slept from 9:15 until 1:30 thanks to its babycalming wonders)
- Eating a meal while holding onto baby (if he kicked off I would EAT and let him SCREAM so he'd LEARN...yyyyeah...got over that one quick)
- Similarly, I would never eat and BF at the same time (ha!)
- I was going to avoid BFing in public at all costs and preferably never do it (my boobs are now a more common sight in our town centre than the No. 7 Circle Route bus).

Anyone else?

I was never going to use the TV/ iPhone as a babysitter. Ha bloody ha. My DS is on first name terms with every CBeebies character
I was never going to let my baby cry . (Although she did sleep 5.30 - 5.40am last night, albeit with about four wakes in the early part if the night. Brought her into bed and got another half hour this morning- praying this huge amount if sleep for her will have put the kibosh on whatever she was brewing. Wishful thinking.)

I got about 2 hours during his five hour stretch. I'm terrible at going to bed early, always feel like I'm wasting the evening!

I was never going to co-sleep - ended up doing it until 12 weeks because it was the only way DS would actually go to sleep at night. We had to kick him out though because I was getting terrible back pain and he was starting to get too wriggly either to sleep next to or to feed lying down.

Last night not so good in the end - teething again.

With my first I batch cooked, hardly any tv, lots of reading books etc...
Poor Dd2 gets pouches, baby sat by baby Einstein, doesn't sit still during story time anyway ha!

I was also never going to cosleep. Fool! Now if I had another I would just do it from the start and spend the cot money on more cake.

Dd just gets given whatever we are eating. I'm far to lazy to sort out something else just for her so blw by default.

I really wanted to do 'pure' BLW but DS has a stupidly hyper gag reflex and spews prolifically if faced with having to try and swallow too much 'normal' food. I keep purées to a minimum and I'm plugging on with textures to try and desensitise him but he managed to chunder over not one but both dogs a few days ago. I'd totally forgotten about it, and hadn't washed them, until mum moaned at me about the dogs smelling mysteriously of vomit Short-term memory = major casualty of this sleeping 'issue'.

Les Mis movie was bloody brilliant. I cried like a girl

3rd wake up as already, and she's only been in bed 2 hours. It's going to be a long night...

For what its worth their most important bit of blw for me is letting them choose what and how much they eat. I think them eating what is right for them is the best thing and if that's soft puree stuff then so be it. People get really obsessed by the whole finger foods business when the book really emphasizes then self feeding IMHO and says loading spoons is fine. I do wish people would stop talking like all babies are the same. <rant over>

I was also never going to co-sleep (doing this every night now) or give jars of baby food. Ella's Kitchen (we should have shares) is technically pouches tho not jars... Am SAH at the mo so no excuse. Did make him macaroni cheese and broccoli for tea tho and he loved it. Yay!!! Has made sod all difference to night waking so far unsurprisingly.

Totally agree with you on weaning hear, people can get a bit cultish about blw but I think it's just as 'baby led' if you find they can manage purees better so you help them to help themselves to those, iyswim. We do a mix of finger food and fork mash and pouches depending on what seems easiest at mealtime.

I can't really remember what I planned to do before I had DS. Read lots on mat leave while doing feeds: but then I discovered MN. And the joys of napping while feeding in my side. Those were the days, when he just lay there eating instead of clawing at my face.

Do remember judging a lady on the bus who was ignoring her DC (maybe 1yo) to play on phone when DS was about 4/5 weeks. Once he is older, I thought, I will talk to him and interact, not play on phone. Now if he isn't screaming on the bus I relish chance to sit and stare into middle distance and zone out.

Last night was both good and bad - just one real waking between 8pm and 6am but it lasted about an hour and a half and involved a lot of false sleeps where I thought he'd settled and began to relax in own bed only to be dragged out by a scream. And I didn't get to sleep til about 11.30, so I didn't feel too refreshed at 6. Own fault, but takes me a while to wind down after he goes to sleep.

Happy 300th post!

While slightly OT, does anyone have any good Calpol/vitamin drops administration tips? DS just screams and spits most of the stuff out. Off a spoon is a complete non-starter so we use the syringe. I hardly ever give him the vitamin drops because it seems like a great deal of upset for him and me, only to have most of it end up down the front of what he's wearing. On the other hand, I'd rather he didn't get rickets

I know what you mean blossombath about not being able to wind down. You lie there on a knife edge for at least half an hour waiting for them to wake up again because it's so much worse being woken up when you've just gone to sleep! I also relate to what someone said upthread about creaky floor boards. I dodge up the hallway like there's landmines once I've got DS asleep in the cot.

My dp is the master of medicine administration in this house. We don't do vitamins as I think that the advantage of bf is that she will take what she needs from me...is this right?

We use the boots paracetamol (calpol gives dd terrible tummy problems) which comes with the big syringes and dp kind of squirts a bit of the medicine at a time into dd's cheek. If she gets dribbly he pops a dummy in after each squirt. The boots ibuprofen is easy though as she loves the taste and practically sucks it out of the syringe.

Also agree about the long wake ups. I would rather dd woke a few times but settled quickly than woke once but took hours to settle. Its just so draining when they won't settle and getting to sleep afterwards is so hard.

Well the past two nights here pretty dismal - not every 45 minutes thankfully - but she still woke up 6/7 times since we went to bed (a few more before that).

Saw my GP yesterday for an unrelated matter and mentioned the osteopath; he agrees it probably won't have any impact but can't harm, so off we go on Tuesday.

Apparently my nanny used to perform some Amazonian tribe rituals on me when I had trouble sleeping, so might try that next

Laughing and nodding at all the crazy brilliant intentions we have before we give birth! Mum always says "I was the perfect parent before I had children" and it's true.

I was going to be the 70's style educator; present and loving but with a healthy dose of benign neglect. HA! Instead I'm this pathetic over-thinking ball of hormones who co-sleeps, does BLW and generally frets just about everything. Plenty of Ella's pouches here too though, she snatches them from my hand and eats them happily so I think it's integral to the BLW philosophy.

We also have bastard creaking floors and I feel all tense during the early part of the evening when I'm suposed to be relaxing, because I just know she wakes up (and more often than not, she does).

I'm so obsessed with sleep that I fear I'll never recover. Bizarrely, I love to hear people describe a good night's sleep; it's like a form of self-torture.

Anyone thinking of trying any new routines/approaches?

As I understand it, you need them more if you're BFing. FF babies don't actually need them at all as long as they're still getting over a pint of formula a day as it's fortified with vit D (among other things). That's the advice from the NHS anyway. I take BF support vitamins myself which are meant to boost vitamin D, but not quite enough. I know the risk is very low for rickets but we're in't north which is rather dark and rainy and not really conducive to prolonged exposure to sunlight! I think the drops are also important for iron intake, but I'm not quite so worried about that.

We have to fight DD to get vitamins/ medicine into her. Usually requires one of us holding her arms down and the other one forcing a syringe through closed jaws. A long way of saying no tips. I thought the same about increased need for vitamins because of bf - and DD is just catching everything at the moment so I'm religious about the vits. Fat lot of good it's doing her.

She's been really off colour the last few days. Yesterday she fell asleep on me in a bright room (unheard of) just half an hour free she woke from her nap. But she seems much better today. We've been getting some decent stretches still so I think we're back on the sleep training wagon now she's better, to try to consolidate. Am really hoping the longer stretches were the sleep training paying off, rather than because she's been getting ill.

Quick question - we've pretty much night weaned as she hasn't had a feed between 6.30 and 6am for the last 4 nights. However, she often wakes 5/5.30ish and we can often get her back for another 40 mins if we bring her into bed and feed her. Do you think I need to stop this as it might confuse her/ undo all her/our work? Would love to hang on to the morning cuddles but not at the expense of sleep

Oh bottoms. I take vit d but didn't think dd would need it as well. Not fussed about iron as she is a super eater and so I'm pretty sure she gets plenty in her diet.

Just a thought...Could you put the vit drops on some food?

Might try that Hear although DD already fussy so no doubt would sniff out at 100 paces

Well i have finally cracked. I have come to the realisation i can no longer call my dd a 'good sleeper'.
She is now a crap sleeper. Has been for last 8 weeks ish. She is now 9.5 months old. Always slept really well bar teeth or illness up until 8 weeks ago and its just getting worse and worse. I went back to work last week and i am exhausted.
Last night was horrific. She went to sleep about 7ish woke about 11pm then didn't sleep again till 3am. I brought her into bed with me where she proceeded to kick,pinch and fall asleep for 20 mins then wake up, root for boob and repeat. I had to get up for work at 6.30am. Fucking shattered.
Every night is getting like this. Sleeps till about 11 then either won't go back to sleep or does then wakes up half hour later. We sometimes co sleep but she thrashes about (likes sleeping sideways) roots for boob a million times and snuggles in so close to me i literally cannot move all night.
She used to self settle, sleep thru and maybe wake once in 12 hours to feed. Now its just a nightmare. Its been like this for months now. Its not going to pass is it.....

The vit drops my DS had tasted of banana so I would stir them into yogurt and he never noticed. But they ran out and I haven't replaced. Must try harder.

Not sure at all re night weaning/5.30 feeds such, I have never really tried to night wean DS, since food always got him to sleep I was scared of losing it's power But he has gone beserk last few days, feeding for ages and not settling, so am thinking of trying it to increase his day time intake. Has the weaning worked in the sense of reduced wakings between 6.30 and 6am?

DS is so hit and miss with food I couldn't mix it into anything and be confident he'd actually eat any enough of it. We use your technique suchanamateur. Hate it, and he STILL manages to spit most of it out.

I'd have thought waking for a feed/cuddle at 5/5:30ish was reasonable. It's within the spectrum of a 'normal' waking up time and if it's for less than an hour...or would it turn into chronic early waking? Dunno, sorry. <Useful>

Hello feekerry. Do you suppose the sleep deprivation is worse when you've never had a good sleeper, or when you've got a good-sleeper-gone-bad? Probably the latter since those of us in the former category have had months of toughening up and no allusions shattered <smiles through broken teeth and haggard eyes at feekerry. Offers a seat by the campfire and a cup of rocket fuel in a battered tin mug>

<offers Feekerry some of her awesome under eye concealer as recommended by make artist (and mother of twins) friend>

We're definitely getting longer stretches. DD only up once last night albeit for 45 minutes but more whinging than full blown crying. Then woke at 6 and I bf'ed her in our bed back into submission till 7.30! Definitely not what the sleep trainers tell you to do!

dd now has 2 shiny new front teeth! Yay! Still waiting for a right fang though so she's a bit wonky.

The morning cuddles are one of the best things about cosleeping for me. I think even if dd started sleeping right through the night tomorrow I would probably keep her in with us just for that, all waking up together is so lovely. So, such if i was you i would keep the morning cuddle routine as it sounds a lovely way to start the day...but then I am a big softy really and think sleep trainers can go and shove their opinions up the proverbial shush/pat.

dd slept great until 3.5 months and the first month was definitely the worst as we just didn't know what had hit us. Also once I accepted it was just the way she is and her waking wasn't a symptom of any terrible parenting failure it got much easier to deal with it.

attempted administration of vitimins today and dd now has a day-glo yellow mouth...oh well

Just catching up. Hope all the babies are ready for a good night's sleep tonight <ever hopeful>. Since (sort of) night weaning we seem to have a couple of good nights then a couple of crap nights. Generally whenever I tell someone about a good night, the next night is truly dreadful. I think DD does it just to spite me!

To mix things up a bit, DD was ill yesterday with a fever - really the first time she's had above normal temperature. She slept well at first - exhausted probably - but then awake lots later on in the night. She's better today, but v tired so already tucked up in bed. Very early nights tend to mean she wakes early on in the evening though so we shall see what tonight brings.

hear isn't it a relief when those teeth finally show themselves? We waited forever for DD's 4th tooth which caused us weeks of misery! feekerry hope you've had a bit of sleep over the weekend. I'm back at work a week Tuesday and can't quite imagine how I'm going to cope. it'll be the early starts that kill me as quite often me and DD lie in till 7/7.30 at the moment. Such I've basically said that if she wakes 5am onwards I'll feed her and she often comes in with me then. We all get a bit more sleep that way. Also talking to others whose babies sleep more, it sounds like quite a few get to 5/5.30 before needing a feed so it seems like a reasonable sort of time.

I'm not sure elphaba but things have been getting gradually worse over last 3 months and now, quite frankly, its fucking awful. Its hard as i know she can sleep well but don't know why things have gone so wrong.
Last night was pretty bad. Went to sleep about 7 then did the usual stretch till 11am then the fun starts. At 1am after trying for 2 hours to get her back to sleep i brought her in to our bed where we had 4 hours of broken sleep then pretty much awake for the day at 5.30am. Crap.

She has been great today, napped okay etc. Then trying to get her to sleep tonight has just been awful. I am at the end of my tether. I have just let her scream for 10mins but don't have he guts or energy to see it thru

That sounds pretty similar to some of my nights recently feek, it is horrid. I hate it when she just won't settle, its so exhausting, so you have our sympathy. You say its been getting worse for 3 months and I am wondering if it coincided with weaning? Could there be something she's eating that's causing her problems?

I have learnt 3 things from this thread that have helped me through. I shall now share them with you like some wise elder statesman passing on secret knowledge (puts on top hat and chews cigar in statesmanlike fashion)...

1) some babies just aren't very good at sleeping. There is no one cause, nothing has gone wrong, waking in the night is crap but it is also natural. It is almost certainly not something you have done to cause it and unfortunately there probably isn't a magic bullet that will stop it.

2) there is no right or wrong answer, its OK to try different things and do what works for you. Everyone else with their opinions on what you are doing wrong can go and screw themselves along with the sleep training police. If cc works for you that's fine, if giving up on all sleep training, taking up fulltime cosleeping and feeding back to sleep makes it all manageable than this is also fine. You will find people of both types on this thread living in harmony.

3) Sometimes, when all else fails, 'you just gotta ride that mo fo out'

That is all for tonight. Thank you and goodnight. <takes a bow and wanders off to find more chocolate>

<claps Hear loudly>

Yes well said hear
I am the give up,bed share,feed to sleep type but whatever you choose to do is always hard. Hey ho. I am getting used to functioning on few hours sleep.

She doesn't really eat much solids as bit of a boob monster however thinking about it she slept thru 12 hours ish on breast milk only. This did all start when she started solids even tho uptake is slow. Hmmmm. Ponders.....

Hello <sob>

DD is 8mos (and 1 day) and sleep at the moment is horrific. She's night weaned herself but she now won't sleep more than an hour at a time and not unless on or next to an adult. She screams if we put her in her cot awake and even if we transfer her once asleep 9 times out of 10 she will wake up and we'll have to start all over again. Only way we get any sleep is to cosleep.

Naps are the same - must be with mummy or daddy. And I can't leave her in our bed to nap; it's too high and she is an enthusiastic sleep gymnast.

She's never been a great sleeper and she's teething as well as in the throes of separation anxiety but I am losing it. I can't bear the thought of CIO so I bought No Cry Sleep Solution and it made me feel more reassured... but I just don't know how to help her.

And I'm so horrible - I really resent her at night and I properly yelled a torrent of abuse at my own mum on the phone the other night. I'm no fun to be around and awful to my husband too who is trying so hard to help.

She at least used to reliably go from 7 til about 10.30 before waking up so we had an evening to ourselves but she's fast asleep on me now, at 9.55, and this is the third time tonight I've had to resettle her. And as soon as I move her three steps to her cot she'll wake up and dissolve into hysterics before I've even stood up.

I just want this to end and for her to be like my friends' babies who go 12hrs without complaint. I don't get what I'm doing wrong.

Excellent post, Hear.

DH is currently trying to settle her after I spent 2 hours lying with her and being poked in the eye with a dummy/pushed/yelled at. <sigh>

We've gone through the misery of 8 teeth but she teething again (I think it's the molars) which is pissing her right off and turning her into a pocket-vampire who bites everything aggressively.

I can hear her crying through the monitor and need to go rescue DH.

Commander I don't think you're doing anything wrong, I know it's horrendous, but it's just the way it is and it will pass!

Suchanamateur what's the name of that concealer please? My dark circles have their own postcode these days.

commander have you thought about mattress on the floor for DD or some other safe place? Think it is suggested in NCSS. I can totally relate to what you're going through as it is so similar to me. I nap with DS in morning (much needed by all concerned) and take him out in his pram in the afternoon or even hold him and read a bit or something. Have given up on trying to 'get things done' at these times and made peace with the long list of chores. At night I nurse him to sleep in our bed and have rails and pillows and a video monitor nanny cam type thing so he is safe. Far from ideal but I was loosing my mind spending hours and hours trying to put him in his cot only for him to reawaken 30 mins later. This too shall pass...

<Souvenirs HearMyRoar's cigar stub>

Well, DS has mysteriously slept for four hours straight in his cot on two consecutive nights now. Last night he was in his cot until 1:30am

As on previous occasions when he has shocked me with prolonged blocks of sleep, however, he is supremely constipated. Maybe the backed up poo is compressing a vital organ or blood vessel and making him drowsy...? I shall reluctantly go off in search of lactulose today and anticipate an end to the sleep with his first poonami.

Elphaba hope you managed to get constipation caused shut eye too, IYKWIM...

Commander to echo the others' - you have done nothing wrong. Babies are random, frustrating and wonderful in equal measure. Hear's manifesto for our sleepy band sums it up perfectly.

Poppy its called By Terry and its their under eye concealer. Spenny but has lasted me through DS and now DD induced eyebags - so three years.

We seemed to have stalled a bit to one wake and up at six and into mummy's bed. Only the one wake last night lasted an hour and a half. Can't work out whether we should just decide we've got all we can from cc and jack it in or persevere and be more consistent than we've been what with illness and early mornings. I've promised DH we'll see it until the weekend and then assess. I think I need to stick to this agreement because DH and I argue so much about sleep and are generally not in a good place at the moment. Having children may have done wonders for our family, but nothing for our relationship..

Hi there, hope you don't mind me joining in, but I'm at the end of my tether because of lack of sleep. I have 2 DC, one is 2.5 and the other 9months, neither have been fantastic sleepers. My 9month old has now stepped up the number of night wakings, I know that he is teething but even when I give him ibuprofen he'll last a couple of hours and then wake up, if it's early on in the evening he'll go to sleep on my husband or I but not back in his cot, during the night he'll sleep with me and wakes up every couple of hours and thinks its a great joke, sometimes he'll go back to sleep bf'ing others he doesn't, often hubby will take him so I can sleep (and vice versa). Then the 2.5yr old wanders in normally between 12-6am (6am great, 12 not!). She suffers from night terrors and nightmares, so will sometimes toss and turn all night. Even when I put her back to bed she'll either come back in to me an hour or so later or into her dad (whose now resorted to sleeping in another room, which I can't say I blame him for doing)....
We need sleep because tempers are frayed with each other and the kids, there's been lots of yelling lately.........

Worst is I feel like I should know better or have been tougher second time round but it's been the total opposite

Hello taten,welcome

I have a similar situation to you in that I have two of 10 months and 3.5, but the older one has nightmares and night terrors too. My DH does such a physical job that he rarely wakes and as I am SAHM I get up,but juggling the two is hard.

Things that I have found helped dd1 were story tapes to get back to sleep and a rabbit nightlight. Also not to talk too much to her or touch her in the middle of a night terror, just quietly and calmly say 'mummy's here, go to sleep. Also she used to toss and turn and wake a lot until we got rid of some faulty electrical equipment on the other side of her wall, which was humming and because it was quieter at night it was waking her up,worth a check.

With the younger one, I just try to remember it is a phase and ride it out between teething episodes catching naps or lie ins on the weekends to survive .

To be honest we are thinking of doing controlled crying with the younger one, just don't know what else to do, my hv recommended we do it and we did it with the 2.5yr old (which was amazing - she did a 5hour stretch first night)

Well, we've managed a 90 min nap and an a 60 min one so we're doing better today. Last night was horrible though and I just lost it which upset DD even more.

I know I'm not the only one with a crap sleeper - not even in real life - but I felt like shit this afternoon when all the other mums at swimming said their babies sleep through consistently. They all did CC/CIO though - the Estivill method? - and I just can't bear the thought of it. But there's a very strong inference from people that she won't sleep otherwise and NCSS doesn't work. Back, rod for, etc.

Next person who tells me to put her down awake is going to get a kicking. It. Is. Not. Possible! Not unless I want hysterical baby.

Have you tried NCSS Commander? I tried bits of it a few months ago and it didn't work then but I've been trying it again in a bit more earnest the past few weeks. I like to think I'm getting some tiny results, but then I'm also fully expecting it to go tits up, especially with the nine month sleep regression around the corner.

We're doing the sleep log at the moment. I really hope it works because I read it thinking "OMG you actually get it" and even DH was enthusiastic and he's a born cynic.

We track feeds and nappies in an app anyway because we are anal so logging sleep in it isn't an onerous task. She napped better than she ever has today - she was in bed with me admittedly but if it has a positive effect we can work on taking me out of the equation.

I admit I skipped the log bit. I kept a sleep log for a week a month or so ago and it just made me depressed and revealed what I already knew about DS's sleep (it's shit).

Have been using Pantley pull off and we're around phase 2 of him being able to go to sleep in his cot. I've redoubled my efforts to get him attached to the 'lovey' he's had since he was born and I'm making an even more conscious effort to put him into his cot awake during the day and have a quiet play.

I still have a feeling that it's the constipation which is making him sleep, though. I reluctantly dosed him up with lactulose tonight. If you don't hear from me again, look out for me on the news. I'll be the one floating around in my stock pot in an ever-rising flood of baby poo.

Hello Commander and Taten. Welcome to the gang.

Commander I sympathise with you when it comes to people telling you to CC at every opportunity. I once had someone at work give me a lecture on how I should leave dd to CIO. I was in the middle of a meeting, had only met them about 10 minutes earlier and had just mentioned that I was rather tired in a jokey conversational kind of way. I was mortified and not a little annoyed. Me and DP both agreed that cc or cio are just not for us so have gone down the co-sleeping route.

Last night dd actually slept rather well, by which I mean she only woke up 4 times and didn't take hours to settle again. She also didn't finally wake up until 7:15...which is an outrageous lie-in considering she is usually up and playing by 6am. I am pretty sure it is thanks to the teeth coming through. Though dp tells me her naps have been all over the shop today so not sure how tonight is going to be.

Oh dear Elphaba sounds like it could be messy! <<passes over a bucket and a rain hood>>

I've been trying to put her down for an hour now. She will not go and just screams and screams. I'm in tears. IT IS NOT FUCKING FAIR.

Oh commander that's rubbish! How about if you just give up for a bit and take her to sit on the sofa for 20 mins. Maybe give her a toy or put something quiet on the TV. I know this is exactly what everyone says you should not do but when dd goes through phases of not settling it seems to help both of us just to take a break.

Welcome commander, for times like that this is my secret weapon, worked for both my two, sit in the dark with it on, after about 10-20 mins they go to sleep.

Dd just did her first wake of the night for some serious farting. I swear I have the windiest baby in the world. I've decided that most of the sleep problems stem from teething, farting, or teething related farting. Not much I can do about any of them really...

Mine too HearMyRoar, I do on occasion give gripe water when I can't take the endless transfer fails and waking due to wind. The teething is a bit easier to handle imo, just give ibuprofen, cuddles and feed.

On that note stitch has just been up for a fart and a feed, they must be in tune HearMyRoar

Last night was pretty grim. Dp ended up getting up with her at 2am for an hour to calm her down and give me a chance for a snooze. I think it must be that missing fang on the move.

Hope you're doing OK Commander and got a bit of sleep in last night.

stitch I now have visions of our dcs farting to each other through the night like little stinky fog horns

Bad night here too, she didn't settle after my last post and was farting, writhing and crying out in her sleep, so I was up and down with her until 2.30am.

Then she woke me at 5am banging and shouting in her cot, so I went in there and she is wide awake playing with one of dd1's plastic tennis rackets that she had managed to grab from a toybox!

Evening all. Another shitty night last night. Up about 5 time between 7 and midnight then i gave up and into our bed and actually we all slept okay. I actually debt give a shit anymore. As soon as she wakes i am just going to bring her in with us.
I really relate to those of you who talk about losing temper etc. Its so hard. I just looked at dd last night and i was so close.to screaming just go to fucking sleep.
Anyways tonight i have warmed a blanket with a hot water bottle and really snuggled and tucked dd up. Really going for the nicey nicey approach as i think we are all just getting a bit wound up about sleep atm. I have rocked/fed her asleep and tucked her all in.
Fingers crossed

DD finally went down in her cot at 2230 last night and came into our room a bit after midnight. Tonight is gearing up to be the same - twice I've put her in her cot and twice she's woken up and screamed hysterically until I pick her up and comfort her. At which point thumb goes in mouth and she falls asleep. And repeat...

I've done nothing about dinner and I'm so hungry.

It does make me feel a bit better that others are going thru similar (not v charitable, i know!!)
commander that sounds exactly like me.evenings recently. Exactly the same

Poor Commander and poor little commander, have you got a dp/h around who can take her for a bit? Or would she maybe settle in your bed for a bit just so you can eat something. You could then have a go at moving her later. Hunger and non sleeping baby is horrid.

If you really can't get her down and have nobody else to cover I would at least take her with you and grab some toast and a banana to keep your strength up.

I know you have almost certainly tried everything but just in case there is anything you've missed here is my check list for getting dd to settle

1) is she warm enough. It's freezing here so extra blankets have been added.
2) is the sheet warm. Dd now sleeps on a fleece blanket rather then directly on the sheet as it doesn't get as cold and saves hot water bottles in the night
3) lots of teeth drugs!
4) I keep her upright (well, at a slight incline really with head higher then body) for 20mins after feeding or she gets terrible trapped wind.

Umm... I'm sure there are other things others do that might be of use to you and they can add to the list.

Oh yes, dp is now banned from washing up after bed time as all the clanging and banging woke her up.

...though saying all that dd still doesn't sleep so don't know why i'm handing out advice really. [Hmm]

She is in bed! Hallelujah! And DH is home and on the next shift whenever that might be (and brought a takeaway god love him)

Whoop! All is saved. Hurrah for your dh who clearly knows when a takeaway becomes a necessity

Well done MrCommander!

Mine are asleep, hoping for a better night after 2 poomageddons today

Wishing a good night for all.

Still waiting for poomageddon here. Day six of non-productive straining.

And sleep has resumed customary shitness so my theory of the constipation making him sleep better has gone bung.

Starvation countered by crap diet is one of the hidden pitfalls of a non-sleeper, innit? DS fell asleep on me upstairs once shortly before I was going to have lunch. He then proceeded to sleep for TWO fucking HOURS. Did I have my phone with me to alert DH who was downstairs? Did I heck. I started to go into shaky, food deprived meltdown and started pounding quietly but repetitively on the floor with my foot to summon help without waking DS. It worked, thank god, or, mark my words, I would not be here recounting the tale today.

Evening all.
Now im sure this will have been a one off fluke but........ I did as hear said above about the fleece over mattress. And dd slept most of the night!!!!!!! Best night in about 7 weeks!!

Basically what i did was wrap dd mattress in a lovely thick fleece blanket. Put a hot water bottle under it and she did 6 hours straight, woke and fed then straight back down till the morning !!!!!!
Her room is always right temperature etc but wondered if she just wasn't snuggly/comforted enough?
Anyway have done same tonight so we will see!!

<does a little twirl and a bow> glad to be of service

Now if I could just work that kind of magic on my own dd that would be lovely. Wow, 6 hours...that sound amazing.

Dd was actually pretty good last night. A few evening wakes but then only one between 11:30 to 6. So that was lovely. We then had to wake her up as she wanted to snuggle with dp and go back to sleep but he had work and I didn't want to screw her day up by letting her sleep too late.

She also did 2 40min naps..in bed. Alone! Yay!

Anyway after such as good night and day I am expecting hideousness tonight as that's how it always seems to go.

Any sign of that poo elph. We are all in suspense

I desperately sought this page and thread out and now I've read a few posts I'm pleased to know that my child is normal. She's nearly 10 months and for the past few weeks it's been a nightmare getting her to sleep. She's teething again and has a snotty nose. I've knocked her afternoon nap down to half an hour or even no nap at all, but she's still not sleeping until after 9pm. I've stopped putting her to bed at 7pm because she just won't sleep. I'm happy to let her cry for five minutes and then go back and shush her a bit but my boyfriend thinks I'm being cruel so he plays the martyr by staying with her til she sleeps and then complains of being tired the next day.

She wakes up in the night bouncing around her cot too, when you know there's NO chance she'll go back to sleep, not even after a feed. She never used to need food at night, not since a couple of months old. Is this also normal?

I hope it passes soon.

Hi all,

We're at it again - she feeds, she falls asleep, I put her in her cot and she wakes fully. I'm going to get a fleece blanket tomorrow but other than that I just do not know what is wrong. Separation anxiety? Putting her down too quickly or too late? Regression? She is wide awake and I have far too much to do to sit here with her on my chest.

commander i think its separation anxiety. We all seem to be going thru the same type of sleeping problems so i think its got to be something like that. I went back to work 3weeks ago and ours has been considerably worse since then. Wasn't exactly great before!

I'm just so miserable. I spend every night in floods of tears because she just will not go to sleep and now she's laughing and cooing and won't let me have just 30 minutes to myself. DH is going to be late home and I am getting so fed up with her.

Does she sleep in the buggy, could you just strap her in even in the same room as you so you can get on with things and she can see you?

How about you get cup of tea/wine, some food and take it to bed along with your dd. Then snuggle up with her in bed till she sleeps then quietly sit your self up and drink and eat.
Would that work?? When i have totally had enough that's what i Do. Its not ideal but better than the constant night time cot battle

Thanks lovelies. She's been in her cot about 30 mins now - not sure if it's anything to do with anything but I found a wool blanket and put it on her mattress and she went down without a fuss. We shall see... and DH is back now and providing much needed moral support.

Has anyone read the Wonder Weeks? I have the app and if it's right - and it has been in the past - DD is smack in the middle of a leap and in the worst week. So in theory it can only get better...

I'll google Wonder Weeks, thanks. My kid doesn't seem to have a cold but has a snotty nose which must make it hard to sleep. I don't know why she has it, but she is teething. Do the two go hand in hand or is it something else? I know she's supposed to learn how to sleep by herself but tonight I just had to pick her up and rock her to sleep. My arm hurt so I couldn't wait for her to go into deep sleep and as I lay her down in the cot I had that 'moment' where I don't know if she'll wake up and cry or settle into sleep. I was lucky tonight.

Ok I'm gonna hook up my kindle tomorrow and get that book! Thank you for the tip!

Day 7. No poo. Vultures circling.

<ahem> Back on topic. I've wrapped DS in a fleece blanket for his going to sleep feeds for ages, then I just transfer him, blanket and all, into the cot so it takes his warmth and my smell with him. Have you tried this Commander and Boomerwang? I wrap him in it a bit like a sleeping bag - he lies on top of it, so it's right up behind his head, then fold it back over him IYSWIM. He's definitely developed a sleep association with it since I've used the same blanket for all naps and night sleeps for months. They even give him a fleece blanket at nursery which he holds while he sleeps there.

Have you started on NCSS yet Commander? I now give him his lovey to hold for every going to sleep feed as well, plus take it into bed with us when we shift to co-sleeping, to further push a sleep association.

Boomerwang read that excellent blog post that blossombath posted about the myth of self-settling. There's no 'should' about it!

This is me with all my sage wisdom, you see. Because my baby is such an amazing sleeper on account of me being supermother with failsafe strategies. He's only been awake five times so far <smug> I'm not writing this at 2:10am...oh no...you're misreading that time there...

My DS has started throwing his lovey on the floor whenever I hold it next to him... Think he has sussed that one out. Sleep regression + teething + cold = everyone miserable. Just when I thought we were making progress too, Sunday he managed 2 hours asleep at the start of the night without waking!! The first for a very long time <major sigh>

We had another pretty good night last night. Only 3 wake ups and a nice snuggly lie-in. I feel all odd..like someone who gets sleep... Ooooh..

I have a policy of not getting excited until at least 3 good nights in a row, so remaining calm and expecting the worst.

I can't wrap her in anything. She doesn't even sleep with a blanket. If you put anything over her she wakes up and throws it off. It's a good thing it's warm in her room. I always wonder which of us is odd for using or not using a bedcover. She's always got warm hands and feet when she sleeps.

I don't know if she was up after 1am. If she was then my boyfriend dealt with it. I do know that at 8.30am when she woke me up she only wanted half of her bottle. Now that's very odd.

Oh well. We've already established that we're not exactly the go-to group for effective sleep advice.

On the poo front...success! What an effort, but it was almost enjoyable. (TMI warning from here on). I told him he was going to the GP this afternoon if he was non-productive, so after breakfast we hopped in a warm bath where he got both a tummy massage and boob to get the bowel moving. Following a liberal application of KY to his rectum via my little finger, we resumed tummy massage and leg pumping. And it started emerging...and emerging...and emerging. A rock-solid, unbroken poo log the length of his leg (and he is a very long baby). It was truly extraordinary. He weed all over me with the effort of it all but he's in a very jolly mood now, not surprisingly.

Have you still got the rain hood and wellies Hear? I'm anticipating an extensive backlog now that the stone has been moved from the entrance if the tomb, so to speak.

Well done Elphaba and Elphabababy, a poo of such magnitude deserves a name, poothon?, anapooda?

4 wakes last night between 1 and 7am

Stitch has a bit of a textures thing too and sleeps with this flat teddy thing that someone gave me, if you put her down with her hand or head touching it, she settles better. She also loves her taggies blanket and bunny for the silky bits.

When my eldest was a baby and I wanted to stop feeding her to sleep I used to play her Fisher Price seahorse whilst feeding her to associate the sound with comfort. Then when I started putting her down awake I would play it while I sat by the cot holding her hand, then once she could fall asleep like that I progressed to not holding hands and slowly (every two to three nights) I would move further away until eventually I was sitting outside of the door where she couldn't see me, but I could still reassure her with my voice. She still has that thing in her bed at 3.5 years old, and last night pressed its tummy to play the music while she went to sleep.

Poothon!

Aw that sounds really cute Stitch

My daughter has a raggie doll that she was given at birth. I'm going to start using that whenever she drinks from her bottle.

The poo thing wasn't TMI for me. I have a bit of a fascination with my daughter's poops I sometimes have to help her poop using a rectal thermometer and some KY jelly and I also enjoy guessing the length of the poop and all the different colours!

Ooh just be a bit careful using a rectal thermometer Boomerwang, you can easily cause damage with those things, I prefer disposable gloves and a pinky finger myself.

If your dc's are having difficult poos, banana can be a culprit, it makes really solid poos. I always find prune juice, fresh squeezed orange juice (small amount) and lactulose help.

Arggghhh, teething!

It's the top two front teeth so understandably causing some issues. Poor DS has red cheeks and is drooling everywhere during the day. Last night we didn't get him to sleep for longer than two hours at a time.

Disposable gloves? Stitch, you're a coward

All hail the Poothon! Mightest of the poos

I've tried getting dd into a comforter before but she is absolutly uninterested. She is a bit fickle with her toys to be honest and doesn't have anything particularly consistent that she is into apart from a purple plastic beaker that she loves.

ballroom, dd has just had the 2 front teeth come through and they were a bastard! She is so much happier now they are good and through though so hang on in there.

boom dd sleeps in these thick padded 2.5 tog sleepy suits . They are the best as she is also a fan off kicking off covers.

I have bought a fleecy blanket ready for tonight! She woke up a few times in bed with us but settled herself with no assistance, so that's good.

She's also napped for a record 3.5 hours today! Admittedly I had to be present at all times but we can work on that, I guess, once she's in the habit of good day-sleeps.

Happy to report night 2 of fleece blanket and water bottle worked well again last night. Woke up twice between 7pm and 7am. Can cope with that no problem. This is the best 2 nights we have had in a long time.
I am on my knees praying to the gods of fleece and hot water bottles for another good night. however there is an increasing amount of snot so i am praying a cold is not on the way. It will be tho. Just to mess us up again

My kid's room is warm, so putting her in a sleeping bag is just going to make her all hot and bothered, isn't it? I do have one. I used to use them in our old house which was always cold.

She's still up, by the way, at 8.45pm. I took her to her grandparent's house as we were having dinner there. I said that we'd dropped the afternoon nap as she wasn't sleeping at night but the rotten thing went straight to sleep as soon as grandma tried it, making me look stupid.

So, I'm not putting her to bed tonight until she wants to go and if her daddy wants an argument with me about it then he'll face a brick wall. I've had enough today.

boom my dd likes to be far hotter then I would have expected and the guidelines led me to believe. I discovered this quite by accident sometime up thread when I left the heating on over night and dd's sleep was noticeably improved. She now sleeps in a long sleeved vest, one of those suits, plus as we cosleep she is also under all our blankets (though as mentioned these often get kicked off). If I try and remove even a layer her sleep goes even worse then usual. So it might be worth giving her a go in something warmer just in case. What have you got to lose?

My suspicions about tonight not being so good have proved justified. After an hour of trying to get her to sleep and her waking and crying just as she dozed off I have given up and she is now sitting on dp's lap watching unsuitable TV...which probably isn't really going to help all that much but there you go, I can't be bothered to stress about it.

Tried wrapping her in a fleecy blanket - she is wise to my schemes. Nooo! Next try - blanket on cot mattress as it's warm from me anyway. She needs easy thumb access so I think wrapping may not be the answer.

Feeling more zen tonight, so if nothing else that's progress!

boom my dd also sleeps better more warm than she should be. Those sleeping bags are 2.5tog... My duvet is 13.5 tog!! Okay i know they wear layers underneath and we prob don't but i think i would still be cold!!

My luck may have run out tho as dd has been up 3 times since i put her down 90 mins ago. I do not have a good feeling tonight.
commander zen is good. What will be will be and all that!!!!

Must be something in the air tonight feek. Dd has finally gone to sleep 2 hours later then usual. I am expecting bad things tonight. Not great as work will be hideous and stressful tomorrow if it snows so could have done with a decent night. Ho hum... Still, looking on the bright side, I have amazingly toned arms

Ah sleep fairy working well here, stitch is down after only having one long nap today. Hoping now for less wakes, a stretch of 4 hours sleep would be nice.

However dd1 is in our bed because her dad has fallen asleep in her bed when he was meant to be putting her to bed.

I have a cot bed duvet for stitch that I will start using in a month when she is 1, think it is 4.5 tog. She sleeps better under blankets than in a bag, she doesn't like the bag as she can't stand up when she wakes and gets all distressed. Like the idea of those sleepsuits in 2.5 tog though.

Still no good luck here - every time I put her down she wakes up. DH has taken over for a bit.

Dammit, I was sure tonight was going to be better.

commander sorry if i have missed it in an earlier post but when does your dd eventually settle???? How long does this go on for?
Once she is asleep does she then sleep okay? Does she seem tired?

I am too dreading work tomorrow as the snow will cause havoc. Dd has stayed asleep but can hear alot of groaning etc so not all that settled

£29 for a sleep suit? <faints>

Speaking of DS slept for 2.5 hours after the poothon escaped today. It was with me, in bed, but I didn't mind at all because today was my last day alone with him before he starts nursery full time He was exhausted by six and has now been asleep since 6:30. again! I reckon we've probably got another hour max before the whimpering starts. TBH, my right boob feels like a cannon ball so, for once in his short little life, he'd probably be doing me a favour.

Nighty night.

She finally makes it into her cot any time in the next hour but she is fast asleep from 7 as long as she's on someone. She'll then do about 90 mins in her cot before waking at which point we take her to our bed where she'll go pretty much all night without fuss - she'll wake but settle immediately.

This has come on so suddenly - it's very weird. She seems to be a very light sleeper all of a sudden.

I did have a £15 off voucher when I bought the first one so not too bad. I was so impressed by dd sleeping more then an hour at a time that I went out and paid full price for a second one. Well worth the money in my eyes. We have some lovely sleeping bags but she likes to stick her legs out sideways and also I think she got cold shoulders as they have no sleeves, so they are sitting in a box just in case she changes her mind or until I can be bothered to eBay them.

Awake! What'd I say? Eh? Eh? I'm like a Jedi knight when it comes to foretelling my baby's movements. Not complaining at all about having this boob deflated, either. Aaaaaahh....

I s'pose I'd pay quite a lot for something to get longer stretches out of DS, when you put it that way.

Need to catch up, but we are in sleep training hell here and too depressed to post properly about it. Go the poothon though. I liked that bit.

2 reading suggestions from me to make you feel better: a wonderful blog/ parenting advice site called Askmoxie if you've not found it yet which hAs always made me feel better about all things sleep, and a novel called ... Night Wakings by Sarah Moss which is brilliant. So good in fact that I am staying up much later than I should to read about a fictional woman's struggles with motherhood

Hello all, been away as first week back at work this week - tried to limit time on MN so I could have more time clutching cuddling DS when at home.

We had a few good nights here (one wake up in 10 hours!!) and I dared to think that I might need to visit this thread and bow out, but now we're back to normal - still better than some of the sleepmonsters on here (2/3 wake ups a night, usually settles fairly easily). I have, however, put up the bed in spare room/nursery so I can sleep in there while feeding him and doze off between feeds if I need to. Also lovely to do a tiny spot of co-sleeping when I was back at work in the day.

Hello to all the new people, haven't fully caught up but I will try to do so today on drive to much needed weekend with friends. Fingers very crossed for lack of snow on our roads, and DS to stay happy in his new car seat...

She didn't get to sleep until gone 10pm. I heard her scream and raced upstairs to find her playing with toys on the floor and Daddy watching her. I was too tired and miserable to give a damn about the messages he was sending her.

A double edged sword here: She didn't wake up til after 9am (!!!) but I know that means we'll have trouble again tonight. I'm not letting her have an afternoon nap. No. Way.

Problem is I have to go out to the shops this afternoon and I know she'll fall asleep in her pushchair ><

Hello everyone.

Thanks for that Suchanamateur, I already use a couple of byTerry stuff but hadn't tried the concealer. Will definitely give it a go, as I need all the help I can get.

Well done on the poo-operation - I'm seriously impressed with the whole intervention and taking notes!

HearmyRoar I really love the sleepsuits; DD sleeps on her side and most have the zipper placed there so it digs in. Those look seriously snuggly and it also means she can kick me sprawl better during the night.

Our room is kept pretty toasty for her (and I hate hot bedrooms) but might be worth it to assess how warm she is during the night - could potentially be a cause of wakings?

Things are very much unchanged here; she had got into the habit of seeing her bedtime as just another nap and waking up around 10pm ready to party. Finally managed to (slowly) move her waking up time to 7:30am instead of 9:30am and that helped.

Still waking up a lot during the night though and just started cruising so is obsessed with getting up to practice that.

Seems like she might walk soon and I wonder if it will have any impact on her sleep - any experiences with that?

I feel like she lets me fall asleep and then jolts me right at the moment when I just started resting. Honestly, it's like a form of torture, only perpetrated by the cuttest little dictator.

Mothercare also do sleep suits with legs and arms and poppers for £15. We have just started using them abd DS quite likes them i think. He also finds it a problem not being able to stand in the bags. Jojo stuff is lovely though.

I would like to tentatively and nervously report that DS has slept from 6:30ish until 10:30ish for four nights in a row now. Wake-ups after that have been at least every two hours, but he's been staying asleep for four whole hours several nights in a row. Now that I've told you that, it will all go to pot, however:

Tonight, DH and I had our first evening together on the sofa, just the two of us, in front of the TV eating crap food since DS was born!

My ability to follow a storyline is so utterly decimated by lack of sleep now that I had to keep asking DH what was going on but fuckit, we did it! Woop!

Exhausted. Going to catch two hours of kip now (I hope) before DS is awake again.

Yay!

We've had vague progress too - she went into her cot at the second attempt tonight and over the last few nights has been a bit less distressed at finding herself there. Admittedly DH is up settling her again but we'll take it compared to other nights...

She's had a much later bedtime tonight - bath at 7, not 6. She's also had considerably less nap time despite my efforts so I'm beginning to wonder if I have a bizarre baby who rejects the notion of sleep breeding sleep.

Elphaba, DD used to do that reliably and I should never have taken it for granted!

Bah. Awake at 9:30. Told ya. Oh well. Got baby-free time with the DH, at least! And we spend it watching telly and eating ready meals, oh the glamorous life

After last night's success with sleeping 8pm till 1am it all went out the window this evening. Stitch has finally just gone to sleep, she is teething again (number seven, we have several possible contenders) and has a cold. Poor thing really wanted to feed, but kept pulling off every few sucks as she couldn't breathe. Keep trying to move her from our bed to her cot, but she has a bed radar and kicks off every time I try to move her.

Progress! After reading stuff on this thread, tonight I put my baby to bed at 8.45pm. She kicked and moaned as usual in my boyfriend's arms but I brought out one of her blankets and he wrapped it around her. She kicks off blankets so he wrapped it around her body and left her feet free. Touch wood, she's been asleep since 9pm and it's now 2.40am (when I should be asleep tbh!) and no sound yet....

Well done little elpha and boom! Poor little stitch.

Me and dp always have weekend crisp and film nights even if we keep having to stop the film to go and settle dd. We are currently making our way through the breaking bad box set which rocks

Dd is definitely past the lovely post new teeth honeymoon and onto the next teeth. Lots of face rubbing and general annoyance.

I also think we need to shorten her naps a bit as she slept much better on 2 40min naps then she ever has on longer ones. Yesterday she had over 2 hours of naps and then woke at 1:30am wanting to sit and make duck noises at me. Took over an hour to persuade her that it was not playtime and she should go to sleep. Does anyone know when they drop to just one nap?

Stitch is fluctuating between 1-2 naps HearMyRoar and she is 11 months old in 4 days time. I think part of last night's problem was that she tried to go sleep for one longer earlier in the day, but then woke up as I tried to put her in the buggy. She then had another longer nap later in the day so wasn't tired in the evening at the usual time.

I am going to try to keep her to 1 nap today as she managed to feed better in the night and hope that works, I want my child free time in the evening so I can do zumba on the kinect, got to start shifting this belly!

Liking the sound of progress for most in here!!!
I have gone over board with the fleece/hotwater bottle thing as we are.having a run of decent nights with 2/3 wakings and easy enough to settle. Would love that to drop to 1 waking but that ain't going to happen.
I long for the day i wake up and its 6am and realise dd didn't wake at all but that is a distant dream lol!!!

hear my dd is nearly 10 months and maybe once or twice a week now.she has just one nap of 90ish mins. However her naps are generally shit and i have to hold her for the whole fecking time so dont use us as a comparison.

Back to square one for us - awake as soon as I put her down. Am knackered again and she won't settle for DH anymore. WTF...

Happy 400th post!

Commander do you have a bedtime routine?

We've had one since she was weeks old - stories, bath, nightclothes on, into sleeping bag, feed and then into cot. It's only in the last couple of weeks that she's started waking and crying when put in her cot.

Oh, poor you. Can't remember how old yours is...would it be the nine month sleep regression?

Well, I had though we were doing quite well with her sleeping from 6:30 to 8:30 but she has just woken again. Dp is with her and I am wondering whether to go offer some boob as it might be quicker that way and we are in the middle of a film.

She's 8 months and about a week so she could be heading into it.

DH settled her into the cot in the end with one of her bunny rabbits - I've been trying to introduce a lovey and it looks like she's chosen a different one altogether! Fortunately it's from Jellycat so if this works a few times I will order a spare...

Please can I join you??

I've not read much of the thread, but i will try and keep up from now.

I love the title,and i am miserably sleep deprived. I have DD, 2.4 and my dts (2 boys), 9.5 months. One does. Not. Sleep. Wakes 1-2 hourly, cot battles. Other wakes 2-3 times. DD wakes every few nights but does often sleep through now finally Thank goodness.

Bedtime routine. Tick
comforter toy. Tick.
Self settle at bedtime. Tick (for one anyway, occasionally the other too)

Both Ebf. I'm desperate, would love a bit of company

Pull up a chair, dreaming ! It's no fun at all and I find it hard sometimes to remember that she isn't doing this on purpose. And I only have the one!

Stripy bunny needs a better name. Suggestions? What do your DCs uses as loveys? <distracting self>

Ah the jellycat bunny, well loved, tatty and still carried around by 3.5 year old dd1. Cures many a nightmare and tearful episode if you can get them latched onto one. Glad she has chosen replaceable one, we are on the third one.

Pick a name she can say easily from an early age so you will know it is that she wants.

Got to get one for stitch as taggies bunny is irreplaceable, can't find more anywhere.

Well, we've been wide awake here for an hour and a half. Commander - maybe both of ours are getting in early on the nine month sleep regression early. I wish it didn't include quite so much hair-pulling...

DS's toy is no longer made by the company it came from <worry> Cute though - it's identical to one of our dogs so he's got a real version and a fake version.

Howdy dreaming. That all sounds thoroughly miserable right there. Twins <shudder>

Stripy rabbit...see, we're shit with names here. We'd probably call it 'stripy rabbit' or something equally genius.

Oh, it's chortling and babbling to itself. I think nature purposely designs babies to be at their cutest at the most ungodly hours to ensure they survive infancy without being smothered by their parents.

Best go before he succeeds in grabbing my phone and hurling it floorwards.

Gosh dreaming, welcome to the thread. You are in good company here, feel free to come and rant as much as you like.

Yesterday's short nap experiment wasn't a disaster but neither was it a resounding success. 5 wake ups, only one difficult to settle. So about average really. Think we'll try it again tonight and see what happens.

Interesting about the naps dropping. She is getting harder to settle for her morning one but definitely still needs it, but maybe she's building up to losing it.

Hmm, DT1 has the jellycat comforter dog and DT2 the rabbit. I tried and tried with DD, rabbit down my top, there for feeds, but never any success.

<drumroll> DT2 only woke once last night. He is a little poppet though, self settles with his rabbit thing and finger sucking. It's no big break through though, every month or so he does this- one wake up, once a month! Maybe to try and secure a position as Favourite Twin?!

However full blown argument with dh at 3am following very very disturbed night from 9pm to then. Argument started by Dhs claim of 'he's asking for cc' . No, no he's not, he wants yet more attention and to come back into our bed. Co sleeping with a horribly difficult to settle DT1 does not work when you are getting up to feed his brother and it wakes him again, so I'm going to persevere with the cot...

My DD was 11 months when she went to one nap a day.

elphaba, at least they're cute then. Mine wriggles, writhes and screams. Not cute.

How old are your dc ladies?

Update: Last time I posted it was 2.45am or something and she slept all the way through the night without waking and woke up at 9am!

Last night we repeated the same swaddling thing, leaving her legs free so she couldn't kick it off, and she slept from 8.30pm to nearly 9am without waking even ONCE!!!

I also bought The Wonder Weeks and although my baby has already passed a lot of the weeks mentioned in the book I like to read the entire thing, and it's a bit of an eye opener already, so worth the money I think (£5.71 for kindle edition), just in case anyone was interested in the book

I think dd would sleep with our wireless mouse if we let her. I used to let her hold it at nap time sometimes when I napped her on my lap on the sofa. She's a funny thing though

dreaming dd will be 10 months on the 23rd. I think she is past the worst of the 9 month regression (waking every hour all night) but waking 4 times would still be considered a cracking night in this house. Ho hum...

We are currently starting to stress a bit as we have an evening in London on the 5th march. We booked it ages ago for dp's birthday treat, we foolishly thought that dd would at least sleep evenings by this point. Not only does she not sleep evenings but our preferred sitter (my mum who dd has a day with every week) can't do it so it will be someone she doesn't know as well. Aarrgh! Its a recipe for hours and hours of screaming baby. Sob...what should be an amazing evening see some amazing music is looking like its going to be an evening of stressing

Welcome dreaming, in my tired state I missed you there last night. Twins! <takes hat off> That would annoy me too, especially in the middle of the night, no baby asks for cc.

Wow boomerwang, even if she doesn't manage it every night a few nights like that means you can recharge your batteries.

HearMyRoar, your dd sounds very cute . Do you live in London?

We live about an hour away by train. So this will be our first evening out of town. I'm actually feeling a bit better about it now as we went round a friend's house and she has agreed to sit for us. She is a teacher so made of sturdy stuff, she assures us she can withstand an evening of screaming baby if required

Dd is napping in bed and has now been sleeping for over an hour! [Shock]

Welcome dreaming. I too am close to falling out with my dp due to lack of sleep. Its not anyone's fault i know but its okay for him when i eventually give in and haul dd into our bed at stupid o'clock as he then sleeps well but i am the one getting pushed more and more out of the bed with only half a duvet covering me and a rather large baby pulling my hair, scratching and kicking me for the rest of the night.

Well as you can probably guess very little sleep had here last night. Knew it was too good to last. Dd slept from 7 to 11 which is always a sign of trouble as for some random reason if she wakes around 11 then the next time she wakes is usually when hell begins. So she then woke at 3 and true to form didn't go back to sleep till about 5. The whole time she was pulling my hair, kicking and screaming dada dada. Not impressed at all. Our day then started at 6.20am . Yuk

Fee if she wants her dada then maybe he should have been the one to get up with her. Do you have a spare bed in her room at all? With dd1 who was far worse (if that is possible) than stitch I used to put toys in her cot and doze in the single bed in her room when she refused to go back to sleep in the middle of the night.

Glad to hear you found someone HearMyRoar, we haven't had a night out in 3.5 years!

Unfortunately stitch dd will not let dp settle her anymore. Since this whole sleep nightmare started few months ago she screams blue murder if he tries and settles her.
Was trying to avoid the seperate beds things but last night walls awful so we have put the spare bed in dd room so i can sleep with her in there if needs must.

fee that is tough. Does she settle for him at nap time or not at all?

Snap, I was up with my 28mo who wouldn't have daddy after DT1's first wake up- so 9 for DT1, 9:30-10:45 for DD, 1 for DT1, 2 for DT2, by 4 DT1 in bed with me... He fell out about 5am. I'm a terrible mother . They do say don't co sleep if you're exhausted, and I am. But I'd fed his brother from the other side at 2 so he was nearest the edge and o just fell asleep and let go . It wouldn't even be so bad if this wasn't the second time its happened in a week :,

We are recovering from double croup and all three coughing their guts up afterwards so sleep has been non existant but still...

I totally hear you fee I hate co sleeping... We have one of the dts in a travel cot wedged into our tiny boxroom with a single bed. I thought it was tight with the bed, no room for a bedside table even, but dh somehow got the travel cot in... DD and the boys have separate rooms but it was one room, just whacked a stud wall up so they're both tiny...

So argh!!!!! I'm knackered, sore back and everything from co sleeping and i dropped the baby!!!

Oh, the point about the travel cot was its a pain to lean in and try unsuccessfully to settle, and being in the single with him in the travel cot makes no difference...

I feel I should leave the thread now. Last night we did the same thing we did both nights before. She woke up only once and took less than five minutes to get her back to sleep.

The changes:

Wrapped her body in blanket, leaving arms and legs free.
Moved her from Baby Semp 2 Lemolac to ordinary Baby Semp 3.
Removed afternoon naps.

I don't know which of these are making it work, could be a combo of all three, but the nights are so much easier now.

Good luck everybody!

Oh dreaming, don't beat yourself up about it, you are knackered. I did exactly the same with dd1 when she was 6 months old onto a wooden floor. Maybe you could get a bed guard for your side, just in case. Which dt is in the travel cot?

I don't do co-sleeping either apart from the odd night when they are ill or I have had enough of the constant up and downs.

Well done Boomerwang, you are always welcome back if things change!

I am under the weather atm with a bad throat/cold so DS is not helping. His latest trick is waking up around 9pm and proving a nightmare to get back down. Happy falling asleep on my shoulder cuddling, wakes up and screams the minute he's put down. Last night he woke at 9.45; finally got into bed at 12.15am. Think it's mostly down to teething.

Thank god I found you guys! I thought I had a really backwards ds! He sleeps well during the day but night is completely different.

He has a routine and will self settle he also has a jellycat Cordy Roy dino calle text who goes everywhere with him.

He has started waking every few hours sometimes will cry but other times will talk, bang on cot, giggle or go exploring up and down cot which is all fine except I can't sleep through the noise!

He has also learnt how to wave so as soon as he spots your awake sits grinning like an idiot waving saying hiya hiya over and over and over....

He is just coming up to 8 months now

*called rexy not text

Still pretty crap here

Full blown teething now, she has 8 teeth and I think the molars are coming through so she's really desperate.

We're doing Ashton powders and ocasional ibuprofen, any other tips?

I'm pretty sure it's just the teeth keeping her up now, but have no idea how to make her more comfortable.

On the plus side, she's now happily cruising and her mood has vastly improved thanks to that. Yay!

No luck with getting her attached to an object - if she has anything close to her she just waves it around or hits me with it and won't settle

Fee I know how you feel, I used to love co-sleeping but I'm getting seriously sick of the kicking, pushing and punching.

Hear our babies are 4 days apart; DD just turned 10 months on the 19th

Wow, that's an advanced baby, FairyJen. Or is my DS a bit slow He still hasn't worked out crawling at 8mo much less sitting himself up from lying, waving and saying 'hiya'! A friend's 11mo DD is also very advanced and is also an awful sleeper so maybe the two things go fist in glove?

feekerry My DS won't settle for my DH either - quite the opposite actually. DS might be whimpering quietly in his cot, DH will go in to try and settle him, and whimper will escalate instantly into a scream. DH finds it quite upsetting as he wants to be able to help (and Christ knows I'd desperately love to share the night wakings) and he also thinks it means DS doesn't like him

Lucky you, Boomerwang! Hopefully we won't see you again, and I mean that in the best way!

Dreaming I made the unwise decision to try and cut DS's fingernails after a night of three broken hours of sleep. I nipped the tip of his finger off, and my God, the BLOOD. I think I cried for about an hour. I managed to drop him face-first onto his highchair once as well after he did an unexpected twist as I was lifting him out. The god-daughter of a work colleague dropped her newborn down the stairs and it bounced All babies still alive and thriving, though, and not holding it against us.

I wish I had changes to report. None, sadly, apart from another regression. We haven't had a four hour stretch after first going to sleep again since I came on here and opened my big mouth about it <rolls eyes, slaps forehead> He also decided being awake for an hour last night would be fun. At least it wasn't over two hours like the night before.

Back to work two weeks today. Sick at the thought on so many levels

elph he doesn't crawl he rolls. When on floor he will push himself around with his hands but always in reverse!

He is bang asleep right now. Come this time in the morning tho and it's a different story.

Hi everyone. Sorry I've not been on here recently. DD's sleeping has been so awful, I've not even had the wherewithal to come online and construct sensible posts! But last night she went down at 7, woke and yelled at 9.30 (but didn't want feeding)... and then slept until 5am! And only woke then cos I made her, as it felt like my norks were about to explode. She fed and went back to sleep until 7am.

Bizarrely I feel like death warmed up today, from not feeling too bad on weeks of 4 broken hours a night. And I know I'll now just get cross when she goes back to 2 hour stretches interspersed with bawling. (Because I know she can do a whole night.) Fingers crossed it's not a fluke!

Congratulations boom and fish. May your sleepy nights be long and reliable

Last night dd only woke 3 times (yay!), but one of those times was for 1.5 hours (boo!). So swings and roundabouts here.

Dd did her first steps today. Only a couple of wobbly ones and then she fell over but I am all proud and impressed. She can't crawl at all, not even close, doesn't roll, or bum shuffle, straight to walking it seems

On the subject of injuring babies I have boshed dd round the head so many times its ridiculous. On the very first time I took to toddler group I had her in the sling.I walked in through the door and managed to crack her head on the door frame so entered the room with a screaming baby who had a growing red mark on her forehead and of course everyone in the room staring at me in horror. Mortified doesn't even come close

I don't whack babies' heads, but my speciality seems to be bending their fingers the wrong way when getting them dressed. Especially coats. Sodding things.

Fish I am petrified of doing that. Luckily I have small hands so I put mine up the sleeve and close my hand around her fist so I don't pull any fingers.

(Sorry, came back for another look - baby still sleeping well)

boomer I do that but still manage to feck it up, eliciting loud wails!

DD asleep, let's see how long it lasts tonight.

Evening all. An okay night last night actually. Woke at 10pm and 4am so well pleased with that. Tonight it has taken about 2 fecking hours to get dd to sleep. My back kills.
poppy i am a big fan of calpol and nurofen when teething. I know some people don't like to give it often but i am past the point of caring tbh!! If i was teething i would want pain relief!!
I give a dose of nurofen 2 hours before bed and a dose of calpol at bed time. I do this until the tooth has broken thru so maybe 4/nights in a row.

For those that asked dd settles with dp fine for naps. Its just bedtime she has a breakdown if he goes in to her. Its a real shame as back.before all this started i was going out with my friends once a week as if dd woke dp could settle her fine. No such luck now.

How is everyone getting on tonight ??

All mine are asleep, but i have the Night Dreads.

DT1 never gets past 10:30 though. As soon as he's less snotty I'm going to re try not feeding then. It's him normally in the travel cot. Except when he's in bed with me.

My aim tonight don't drop the baby out of bed

fishandjam that's absolutely amazing!! Long may it last, hurrah!! I don't know if it gives me hope or further despair though as i just can't get blooming DT1 to settle without boob or vigorously jigging him... He does settle from awake in the evening though. Argh!!!

elphaba I've done that to DD in the depths of sleep deprivation when she was a titch. Apparently everyone does it, so my mummy friend said when i confessed... And mine are 9.5 months, no crawling here. Though one is a proficient roller, specializes in free fall to the floor from my bed . DD walked at 10.5 months with no crawling...

I took my eye off my daughter when she was 8 months old and I feel terrible about it to this day. She was sitting on the sofa at a time when she never moved around, and was playing with a toy. I was on the pc. I heard this heavy thud and I felt sick right away. I'd turned before the crying started, picked her up and hugged her so tightly. My boyfriend jumped out of bed, took her off me and took her to the kitchen to look at her under the light. I heard him say 'oh you hit your nose' and saw him wiping her face with a tissue... then I saw the blood... and then I looked down and saw that I was covered with blood too. I fell to bits, sat down and bawled my eyes out, feeling utterly wretched that I had hurt my own child. Took a lot to calm me down.

We took her to hospital where she fell asleep waiting to be seen. She had a fat lip and a crusty nose but was otherwise quite fine.

Still makes my blood run cold, though.

I'm lucky not to have injured him then!!

5 wake-ups last night, full change of clothes/ bag at 1:30 for the fourth night in a row for DT2, but i didn't drop the baby out of bed, so a success...

Any news from anyone else?

Slept 7pm until 11:30pm! Woop!

Four wake-ups after that, including a full 45 minutes on the boob

Huh, looks like it was an aberration. Normal service resumed last night - awake 10.30pm, 2am, 3am, 5am. Though I managed to fend her off with a dummy for the 2am and 3am wakings.

dreaming, slogans, bummer dudes. I know what you mean about the Night Dreads! The only consolation is that they will sleep through eventually. (But when? I find myself wailing.)

boomer, my DS fell all the way down the stairs when he was around 20 months old. Bounced all the way and somersaulted round the bend at the bottom. I was so freaked I took him to A&E - not so much as a carpet burn on him. But I shook for the rest of the day.

Welcome FairyJen

Well done baby Roar on your first steps. Can't wait until stitch starts walking, she has been cruising since she was 8.5 months and could do it if she tried, but it is the confidence I think.

Well done fishandjam and boomer on your successes, long may they last!

Fee just remember it is a phase and it will pass x

Dreaming if dt1 is in the travel cot, have you tried putting extra padding on the mattress? Had a horrible stay at my mum's house when dd1 where she just wouldn't sleep in the travel cot until we put a duvet on the mattress.

A reasonable night here, bed at 8.30pm, waking for feeds at 11.30, 3 and 7, settled easily. Still didn't get much sleep as I am ill.

slogans? I meant elphaba! Wretched autocomplete.

X-post fishandjam sorry you had a bad one.

Well done baby green 4 hours in a stretch is an improvement, hope you enjoyed your baby free evening Elphaba.

Dd1 has had several big bumps. DH passed out with her in his arms (he was ill) at the top of the stairs when she was 2, she bounced down and luckily he bounced over her, or she would have been more injured.

he went to bed at 7 then woke up at 10 when I went to bed and didn't drift off again till 2!!!!

All I can say is it's a good job he's cute!

DO any of you have DCs that previously self-settled and have now stopped? DS has been quite good at self-settling as long as he is content from 11 weeks old, when we instigated a bedtime routine and stopped co-sleeping, but we seem to be going downhill on this front. Putting him down kicks off the writhing, crying, sitting up/pulling self up in cot, screaming, etc. Notice we are right on the cusp of a development phase as per The Wonder Weeks as well. SIGH.

Last night we only had two wake-ups but it took over an hour to get him back down both times.

fairy, that's exactly what DH and I say to DD! "Good job you're cute, or we'd have sold you to vivisectionists before now."

ballroompink Sounds like separation anxiety...? Can't remember how old yours is sorry, but 9 months is when it would kick in.

He's 8m 1wk old. I think it could well be separation anxiety!

Ballroom, my daughter is a week older and exactly the same, especially your earlier post about falling asleep on you then crying when put in cot.

We had a better night last night - she had a late nap from 4-5 after swimming then played til bathtime at 7. And she went in her cot first time! Woke at 10.30 and took ages to settle again so I brought her in with us but it meant we had an evening to ourselves. Yay

She's a lot less crabby today and yesterday about me leaving the room so I hope hope hope that she's coming out of the bad patch (and if that's right it's 4 out of 4 for the Wonder Weeks app)

4 wake ups last night with pretty easy settling so I am quite pleased with that. She's been a bit funny today though and not eating very much (she usually eats like a horse) so not sure how tonight will be.

For teething we also do ibuprofen and paracetamol, one just before bedtime and then the other a few hours later if needed. One in the morning as well if she's bad. I can't remember the last time she didn't have something at bedtime at least. She is just constantly teething at the moment and I can't leave her in pain if I can do something about it.

I am another pro-pharmaceuticals. I also find Anbesol better than Bonjela, though it doesn't taste v nice - it got in my mouth once (flailing DD) and I was numb for hours...

Hearmyroar, have you got a Sophie? I don't know what it is about them but they are brilliant and DD is v attached to hers. I think it's the texture or the shape or something but she really finds it soothing.

(It has a very annoying squeak though. This can be rectified by a go in a steam steriliser. Not that I purposely broke it, oh no)

ballroom if you look back at my posts you will see i am in the same boat. Dd used to settle well/sleep thru etc till about 7 and a half months then it started to get worse then at 9 months it is just awful. Dd is nearly 10 months now. I feel your pain. Separation anxiety i think. I have given up trying to work out the what's and why's. It is what it is!!

Pretty rubbish night last night. Several wake ups. Hard to settle. Pounding the corridors at 2am. Great..

Its the inconsistancy that gets me. Every fucking night is different. The wake ups vary in time and length every night. Its like a sleep lottery!!

Yes yes yes, I was all PFB about DD, no sugar, (natural yoghurt with fruit puree even!), no drugs unless really, really necessary, all home cooked food... My poor boys are Ella's Kitchen kids, I'm bloody delighted if I can get a petit filous tube down the neck of the one who's not only just doing a dairy challenge, and Calpol ahoy!! I get loads of mouth ulcers and anbesol absolutely rocks, it really does numb the area so completely anaesthetises any pain. I have heard it's out of production now, but keep forgetting to actually check and stockpile if so...

One wake up already here, but soothed without boob by dh. So, straw poll, 9.5 motnhs, does he really need 4 feeds a night?? of course not How long would you try to comfort and get back to sleep without resorting to boob? We did try PU/PD style thing, and on night 3 only fed once and I was delighted, by by night 6 of hours to settle, he'd cracked me, it was Christmas, I gave up, and recently it's been illness. He's just run a temp of 39 or more for 6 days straight, straight afte rhvaing croup, so anything to keep the little tike hydrated and happier. But now, now I should get back on the sleep trainign wagon....I suppose....

Any plans anyone, with details for me to try?? I can't face cc, I just can't. yet

Ack! DD is absolutely wide awake. DH is trying to settle. She only fell asleep 30 mins ago...

feek, while frustrating, it shows she may need something... Maybe?! I read that if wakings are really regular, AKA my DT1, it's more likely just habit- but for me its seemingly impossible to break- 6 nights without the 9pm feed, but without huge effort, we're straight back into it. and it has NEVER been better. Ridiculous, a nearly-10-month-old who has never in his whole life slept more than 3 hours.

I think we have separation issues here too, as he used to self settle the best of my three every evening but now is much harder. And if he falls asleep feeding I don't wake him to put him down because I'm too tired to start a battle that can, and has, lasted hours. However, he is a truely stubborn little tike, and I also think some of it is nature versus nurture as his twin is soooo different and they have been 'nurtured' excatly the same, I've always fed his brother, every wake up, cuddled, rocked and soothed him just as much, but <whispers> he only woke once again last night .

And Sophie is brilliant, we have 3. We would have had two, except I lost DDs and of course re-found it after i bought the boys their Sophies.

Sorry for all the typos before, too numerous to try to correct

Dreaming BfN lady told me that an average of three feeds a night for an eight month old is reasonable. DS has...ooh...six? ish? Above average, my little boy <proud>

I just lose the will when it comes to settling without feeding after about 10:30pm midnight which is when the co-sleeping kicks in so I can cope. Otherwise it would be feed, then attempt resettling in the cot for an hour or more after. Less sleep for all concerned.

I may be looking down the barrel of sleep training if work is really unmanageable on the sleep I'm getting, but I really don't see the point until we see where he goes with separation anxiety and the nine month sleep regression. We've already done two rounds of sleep training with no lasting results whatsoever and I can't , I just can't, put him and me through it again, only to have to keep re-doing it every few months, so co-sleeping for now it is, unless I really start to lose it back at work. (The patented Elphaba Toughen-the-Fuck Up Programme is still ongoing, BTW, and I'm finding it quite effective.) My mum has actually suggested I'm 'indulging' him I'd like to know what the blinding bloody hell else I'm supposed to do...

Maybe I should try a Sophie then. I have resisted as dd just hasn't been into soothers apart from her dummy. we have a raspberry thing that she quite likes but that is like a big knobbly dummy.

The differences between your twins are really interesting! I do think that it is really nature and that dd is just not a sleeping baby. My mum tells me I was exactly the same, even down to the peculiar sleeping position dd likes.

I've given up on sleep training for now and am a fully signed up member of the ride the mo fo out school of sleep management. I'm going to reassess when she is a year old and maybe try something then. I just hated the training business so much and it just resulted in everyone being stressed and miserable.

dreaming my dd is 9.5 month old and she prob feeds at least 4 times between 7-7 but that's coz i can't be arsed to try settle her when she wakes so just offer boob so not sure if she actually needs feeding but either way its the quickest way to settle her. Luckily she.never feeds for more than 5 mins so i can cope with that. If we were.talking a 40 min feed i wouldn't be so keen.
i would say if your talking 4 times in 12 hours i would be okay with that...
Also i am mindful i have returned to work so dd is getting less milk thru day now so happy to go with it for now..tho i do wonder if i will still be settling her with boob at 10 yr old as can't see how we are ever going to move on from this chapter!!

Ride that mo fo out...... Love that!!!

I'm in other same boat as you feel with return to work. Dd doesn't have any bm during my working days so I feel I need to let her feed at night when she wants. Also around 4 times though sometimes more if growing or teething.

Last night started well but then she wouldn't lie down at all between about 1and 5 so very little sleep had. We cosleep so you would think she would be OK about being put down as she's right with us, but no, heart rending sobs whenever I tried.

YY to nighttime BFing being mitigated by the fact that DS isn't getting as much during the day. I send EBM in with him every day, but I don't think he takes in much of it.

Does anyone feel the exhaustion goes in cycles? Some days you're quite fine, and feeling very chuffed at how well you're doing on so little sleep, then others you feel like you're walking through custard even if there's been no major worsening in DC's sleeping pattern? I'm having a few custard days at the moment...

I have exactly that Elphaba, today and yesterday have been custard days, but I am under the weather. Two days ago I was chirpy.

I am definitely in the ride it out camp. Did it with dd1 so I know it eventually gets better (when she started walking I found). Dd1 refused bottles when I went to work, so reverse cycled and fed every two hours.

I'm also on a custard day. I find I keep drifting out half way through conversations and then can't remember what people were talking about. Very embarrassing

I too feel bit like that but in a weird way going back to work has helped as i am so busy i forget how tired i am. And actually if we have had a shit night its kinda nice just to drop dd of at childcare and just go to work, have cuppa etc.
Think i found it more tiring when on mat leave as shit night sleep then having to deal with dd all day. Work is certainly less tiring!!

I can't find our Sophie anywhere. Most distressing.

So I've been doing the evil sleep training. I can't say DD is sleeping through by any means but we have had some good nights. But she's been ill on and off, so I've not been able to be consistent and our nights reflect that. Some nights no wakes until 5 or so, and others ... <shudder>. So I'm sitting on the fence of bowing out. It's not as bad as it was when I started this thread (she's almost 1 FFS), but neither is it particularly good, especially when we've just put DS in a big boy bed and he's up and down. So I think on balance I'll keep checking in. I want to see how everyone is getting on. They Will Sleep. Hopefully.

HearMyRoar Yes. I know the feeling. I'm like an old person watching telly as well: 'So who's that again? Have we seen them before? No, I really don't understand what happened just then.' It's fucking awful because I used to be so on the ball! If I hear anyone say 'baby brain' again I'm going to deck them. NO. I'm just FUCKING EXHAUSTED. It's only secondary to baby, not a softening of brain tissue associated with the birth process.

feekerry I do hope you're right about work. T minus a week and a bit now before I go back. Well, start, really as it's a new job with people I've never met, most of whom I'll be supervising. They're going to think I'm a hell of a dozy, useless cow if my basic TV-watching skills have gone so much to pot. Oh, dread, dread, dread... At least if I was going back to my old job I could ease back in gradually and be allowed a bit of dozy-cowness. With this one I've got to hit the ground running.

suchanamateur Well, I hope it does all work out. Do pop back and visit us and let us know what unbroken sleep is like

So DS's latest permutation is that if he wakes while he's in his cot it sometimes just needs me to roll him onto his side to get him back to sleep. The thing that irks me, apart from the interruption just as I'm trying to drift off, is dressing the child, or changing his nappy, is like managing a Mexican jumping bean because he is so mobile. He really can't see fit to gently ease himself back onto his side without summoning mother? (Yes, I do try and keep him supported with a rolled blanket and one of his firmer soft toys to keep him on his side, in case you're about to suggest that. He still manages to end up on his back and conveniently forget he's been rolling for over four months now.)

Elphaba thanks. DD used to do that. Drove me mad. And she would just pick up any rolled towel/ other imprisoning device and just punt it round the cot at 2am.

Honestly elphaba work is easier!!! I went back to a new job too. Was dreading it as never been apart from dd for more than an hour. Fed to sleep for naps,ebf,bottle refuser, spoon refuser etc etc but all worked out fine. I kinda think before i went back to work if i had a shit night then i would feel kind of resentful in the morning where as now i have no choice. I have to get on with things.

Love love love the Toughen the Fuck Up and Ride the mo fo out approaches
I'm in!!!

Wedding anniversary tonight, out for 1.5 hours for a meal. Both dts up, DT1 a nightmare when got home...

Me and dp both agree that our days at home with dd are so much more exhausting than our working days. One of the main reasons I love that we have been able to work it so that we both do the childcare part-time is that it means dp understands how hard it is. I had no idea until I had to do it, I love my job even more now

Last night was another horror with dd refusing to lie down for most of the early hours of the morning. She just had a long morning nap though so is much chirpier, was a crying overtired mess this morning.

Thanks feekerry DS has been gradually building up his time at nursery over several months now and has been full time from this week, so I'm getting accustomed (sort of...) to the separation. I'm literally just worried about my ability to make high-level decisions, and at least appearing competent, when my brain has been replaced with mashed potato!

The custard seems to have downgraded from tinned Ambrosia to a good quality creme Anglaise today, so I'm feeling a bit more positive. And only four wake-ups last night although one of those required 40 mins on the boob to get back to sleep again

Creme patissiere here today. Totally get what feek means about the inconsistency. I could cope better if I knew when she was going to wake! We're doing a bit of CC in that if she's fed, nappied and still whining, she gets a toy or two chucked into her cot and left to it. We only go back in if she gets distressed. More often than not, she'll chunter her way back to sleep.

Plus DS has started waking at night too - think it may be nightmares but he doesn't yet have the vocabulary to explain why he's wailing at the top of his not inconsiderable voice. Our neighbours must be thoroughly pissed off!

I am fresh custard today, still ill, but feeling a bit better. I got more sleep last night as stitch fed loads between 9 and 11.30pm then woke at 2.30 and then slept until 7am! She is now ill too though and there is a tooth bothering her somewhere, so we shall see what tonight brings.

I worked and dh was SAHD for dd1. I had an easier time in some respects as she teethed really badly and would refuse to eat anything but yoghurt and screamed a lot. I was tired from the night feeds, but as others have said you just have to get on with it. It was also nice to get some mental stimulation, atm I get a bit bored with cleaning and only having a 3.5 and 11 month old talk to for much of the time, even at toddler groups the conversation is very child based. I love them and love being with them, but it is not all I am, work helps with that, as does MN

"If I hear anyone say 'baby brain' again I'm going to deck them. NO. I'm just FUCKING EXHAUSTED. It's only secondary to baby, not a softening of brain tissue associated with the birth process."

Couldn't agree more. I keep hearing people say it doesn't get better, you just get used to functioning on so little sleep and it makes me feel like curling up into fetal position.

I have a new problem (oh joy) and was hoping someone can suggest something to help:

DD was fine with falling asleep in the side-bed cot (we co-sleep halfway through the night) but now every time I put her down she rolls on her tummy to crawl and tries to get up, even if she's half asleep!

This really annoys her because she's tired, but she won't stop doing it!

So now I have to physically "restrain" her by lying down with her and putting her in my arms to sleep. I wouldn't mind too much (god knows I had to do it 24/7 for 4 months) but she started to object to this so she cries and takes forever to sleep.

Options: cot and let her stand up/crawl etc. and then get upset or put her to sleep in my arms, she gets upset and eventually falls asleep (2 hours later).

Any suggestions, please? <will be your best friend and shower you with sweets and cake>

Tricky one poppy, I have a similar problem with dd at the moment, she just wants to stand or crawl or generally drag herself about it even when she is exhausted and so ends up is tears. I just sit her on my lap after a book and basically hold her there until she stops trying to fling herself forward. If I can get her on a boob that usually helps. Its crap and is doing terrible things to my back and shoulders but apart from leaving her to get in a state I can't think of anything else. I'm hoping once she has got walking properly she'll settle down a bit. [Hopeful face]

poppy hmm difficult one. I am prob not much help as i have to boob then restrain then repeat until she sleeps. I often find if i can fall asleep first other then encourages her but not easy whilst trying to restrain.

Dd seems to have settled for 3-4 wake ups between 10.30pm and 6am. She has been sleeping from 7pm till 10pm ish so at least that is something. There is no pattern to the wakes after that. No reason either other than to deprive me of sleep. That's what i think anyway.

Thats a good stretch stitch that's at least 4 hours you lucky lady!!!

Is it possible to sort of tether her by tucking a sheet over her horizontally? I used to also tuck the bottom of DD's sleeping bag down the end of the mattress when she woke herself by rolling (can't do it anymore as the problem now is that she wakes as soon as I put her in the cot!)

Gosh I read about all these different permutations of sleep difficulty and wonder when things will improve.

Thanks for the suggestions - she likes to sleep between two bolster skinny pillows and that used to sort of keep her in place but now she just moves them aside, even in her sleep. Will try tucking the sleeping bag tonight though, that might work!

Failing that, will just have to ride the mo fo out - guess that's quickly becoming our collective motto

For some reason I'm clinging on to the idea that she'll sleep by the time she turns 1 yo. Do you think most 12 month old babies sleep better than this? <hopeful>

AAARGH! Projectile vomiting baby! Repeatedly! Might be co-sleeping in pools of puke! BFs to sleep so might make him vomit more! Contagious...? AAARGH! Starting new job in a week! AAARGH!!

<runs around, arms flailing, hair flying wildly, cleaning up carpets and cots full of baby vomit>

elph, I hope you have a waterproof undersheet on your bed, and an extended warranty on your washing machine. If it's any consolation, DS had norovirus when he was 5mo and neither I nor DH caught it.

You should be ok with BF - we had to stop FF as we were advised it could trigger a milk allergy, so DS had glucose water with a bit of salt until he stopped hurling.

I rock and use boob when possible, unless he starts to get very upset and really insists on getting up. If he is totally determined I let him bang about on bed for 5 mins or so then try rocking him or lying him down again. This works 9/10 times. Can take a while tho . Please god let this phase end soon. DS only woke 3 times the other night and really hoped this was The Start of better sleeps. Sadly not the case. Custard week.

Thick, thick custard here. Last night DT2 up x3 and DT1 x5, including up 3-5:30am. Again.

Arghhhhhhhhh!!!!!

I've got 16 months for better sleep in my head... Surely all 16 mos sleep better than this ?!

<coffee and cake all round>

And deepest sympathy elphaba . Grim grim grim.

I have resorted to strapping stitch in the baby carrier and sleeping sitting up before just to get some sleep when she was having an extra wriggly night!

When they used to put babies outside to sleep in prams they used a 5 point harness clipped onto the pram to stop the baby rolling out. We could all just tie our babies down <only half joking>

Oh Elphaba, that is not what you need. Dd1, dh and I all had noro at the same time when she was 18months old. I just covered the mattress with black bags (too ill to go out and buy waterproof sheet) then put towels down over the whole bed. The washing machine and drier were running almost constantly! Just keep breastfeeding, no food, don't bother with other fluids, breastmilk is the best rehydration solution for him. Make sure you eat and drink enough as you will have more demand for your supply. Plus side, you lose loads of weight feeding an older baby like a newborn. When you restart solids go back to basics, baby rice mixed with breastmilk, mashed potato, plain toast, plain pasta (butter is ok). Look up brat diet (useful post-vomiting as well as diarrhoea). Their stomachs are quite sore at first, and their regular diet can aggravate it and they just bring it all up. At least with noro it is over fairly quickly.

<Elphaba emerges, picking chunks out of her hair>

Hi guys.

Well, the worst seems to have passed, and he slept for four hour stretches between each purge.

I thought I'd been a bit PFB by buying four sets of cot bedding before he was born but I was rather relieved last night. It was all folded up underneath him, mind, next to me on the bed rather than in his cot, but it saved my new duvet and bedding several times over.

Right, thanks Stitch I'll keep him on a strict diet of boob today and if he keeps that down, toast or maybe ReadyBrek made with BM...tonight or wait until tomorrow?

If he hasn't vomited in 12 hours and shows signs of hunger try him on a finger of dry toast, if successful then move onto rice (doesn't have to be rice cereal, boiled rice will do) and breastmilk (oats harder to digest). Little and often with the food, if you feed them too much too soon it all comes up again.

Basic foods to start with are bananas, rice, apple puree, toast. Then you can add yoghurt, boiled chicken, other cereals, eggs, boiled veg, baked fish, less acidic fruits like pear if that is successful. Broths made with chicken or fish and root veg are good. Leave cows milk out for a few days along with citrus fruit and tomato based sauces.

Oh gosh elph! All sounds a bit grim round yours. Hope things are holding out and vomiting has ceased.

I am also holding out for 1yr as some sort of beacon of hope despite this rather disheartening stat from the isis site :
'One study investigating infant sleep duration found that 27% of babies had not regularly slept from 10pm to 6am by the age of 1 year. 13% of babies had not regularly slept through for 5 hours or more by the age of 1 year.'

I am definitely custardy today though thankfully dd did sleep slightly better then the past couple of nights when I had only got a few hours. So an improvement there I suppose.

Well, I made him some BM 'rice pudding' (i.e. EBM, pudding rice, apple purée). He thought that was pretty tasty, kept a good tablespoon of it down, and I believe cooking with breast milk means I've now met the requirements for the Advanced badge in Lentil Weavery and Earth Mothering, yes? Next thing you know I'll be extolling the virtues of cloth-bumming, babywearing and Steiner. Hell, I'm already co-sleeping.

Hope your nights all suck a lot less than last night did for me.

<wanders off in search of tempeh and love beads>

Oh that sounds like crappy night all night round for most. Especially elphaba. Sounds yuk.
I was so so custard tired last night that when dd woke at 2am i decided to leave her for a bit as i physically couldn't get out if bed and she wasn't crying just shouting and squealing. So i left her, and left her and left her.....and.... She was still shouting and squealing after an hour. So i went thru and boobed. She fell asleep within 5 mins. So i was very annoyed with myself as i wasted an hour trying to sleep whilst she yelled away.
I honestly thought she would give up but she just kept at it!!!!!

<snorts with laughter into her wine>

elphaba you'll be fine at work if you can survive a vomiting bug and still be witty on mn

^

I wrote this so long ago before the 4 wake-ups we've had so far that I'll post it in case I've x posted with lots, plus I'm just too tired now...

feek, I've left DT1 40 minutes while busy with the others, he just escalates til he pukes. Screaming too, not shouting.

I had total fail to get him in his travel cot last night. I ended up sleeping propped up with him (he's bunged up and super snotty, again) ALL NIGHT. Total non sleep for me, makes me so sore as I can't get comfy. I woke dh, who's also ill, to have him when he woke for the day at 6:20 as i literally couldn't make myself get up with him. Feeling a bit desperate about tonight...

Good luck everyone!!

My dp also got up with the baby this morning dreaming due to an horrible night. She woke at 12:30 and didn't settle again until gone 3. On the back of a run of nights of getting around 3 hours sleep I kind of lost the plot a bit. It seems to be tummy issues again as she was farting like trooper on a diet of beans and cabbage. We've decided to try cutting down on any hard to digest stuff in her diet, high fibre and oats and stuff, to see if that helps.

Dd seems to have finally decided to begin the process of dropping to 1 nap and today is the first single nap day. I have been expecting it for a bit but dreading it as the nap dropping period is always horrid until she sorts herself out and settles to a new routine. Today she has only had an hour at midday so we shall see how she sleeps tonight.

Okay we had a good night last night. Went to sleep at 7 WITHOUT any rocking. Apparently at nursery that day she settled herself too so glad to see that repeated. She then woke at 12 and then 5 and slept till 7am. Will have that again thank you.

So ladies, tonight, i am feeling brave and have gone for a bottle of wine. I haven't drank in weeks due to the night time horrors but i don't care tonight. Anyone else??!!

hear how old is your dd?? My dd did 2 solid naps of one hour yesterday and i think it makes a massive difference to her night sleep. Frankly the thought of dropping to one nap fills me with dread. Please do let us know how you get on!!!!

Dd afternoon nap has been getting shorter and shorter so it will soon be upon us!!

We sometimes have just one nap for DT2. He's 9 months and a few weeks now- only about a week off 10 months. DD went to one nap at 11 months. DT1 sleeps so badly I think he'll be on two for a while...

But, breaking news, last night DT2 only woke once at 9pm and I settled him in his cot without picking him up . Now, for either DD or DT1, this kind of outrage would be dealt with by screaming blue murder until they were picked up, but then little DT2 went back to sleep until the morning

<thud>

Honestly, if DT1 wasn't here I'd have had a whole nights sleep. He was in with me from 11:30 onwards and i just couldn't get him back in his travel cot. Which incidentally is killing my back. It does have a decent mattress in it though for him.

<weeps a bit>

Hooray feek, sounds like good sleeping is just round the corner for you. No rocking. I'm super impressed. I have also turned to wine. Nearly 10 months of resisting, but I have resorted to a very large glass of to cheer myself up

Oh dear no such luck. Dd has just woken 40 mins after falling asleep.... Oh fuck. Is it wrong that i have actually developed a fear of night times now??! Lol

Elphaba glad to see he is eating again, how is he now?

HearMyRoar last night sounded rough, hope tonight brings more sleep.

Fee last night sounded good, shame about the wake tonight, hope you get a few zzz at least.

Dreaming yay for DT2 Interesting how different they are sleep.wise, are they very different characters in the day too?

Stitch slept 8.30pm to 1am fed then slept until 5am when she decided DH was far too exciting (she was asleep when he got home last night) and decided to slap him about a bit shouting 'dada, dada'. Poor guy was knackered so we decamped to the front room where dd1 joined us at 7am. Stitch then napped from 7.30 until 9am so I went back to bed while DH stayed with dd1.

She is asleep already so I am hoping for a good night again as 4.5 hour stretches are very welcome.