Support thread for sleep deprived parents doing or considering CC

(147 Posts)
babybouncer Mon 29-Oct-12 19:09:01

Seeing as our last thread got a little hijacked off track, a new one seemed a excellent idea.

DD is 7months old and I'm about to start night 2. Last night took 90mins to settle, including a longish quiet time. This afternoon's nap took a long time, but in both cases she slept week once asleep.

Fingers crossed for tonight!

Ps please don't post any anti-cc comments - it's not something a parent does lightly so I ask that you respect our decision.

Lifeisontheup Mon 29-Oct-12 19:15:59

Not sure if it helps but I did CC on all my three, they are now 16,19 and 20. So far they are not in therapy, sleep well (far too well!) are articulate, happy and have a good relationship with both parents and their peers. They seemed to be happy, unstressed toddlers and school children who coped with whatever life throws at them calmly and cheerfully. I know it's only anecdotal but my experience is that it worked (in less than a week ) and they were none the worse for it. Good luck all of you. smile
PS and none of them remember it.

babybouncer Tue 30-Oct-12 03:06:42

Night 2 took 25ish min and she was fast asleep. Woke a 11 for milk and went straight back to sleep and I is feeding now. Seems a much healthier gap between feeds than the 45-90 mins we'd had for the previous month!

Good work smile I was partly to blame for the mayhem. I do apologise. I really hope it (or anything!) works for you! x

babybouncer Tue 30-Oct-12 06:49:21

Wow, went to sleep without crying again and only just woke up. It seems crazy, but the first falling asleep of the night seems to be the key to all her other going back to sleeps.
I'm so glad I don't feel like a zombie today - I'm meeting a friend who is pregnant with her first and I really didn't want to scare her!

MummyVicky18 Wed 31-Oct-12 05:11:36

I'm interested to see how you get on. I've been considering CC but I think ds is still too young. But I'm so sleep deprived sad I've had to settle him every 2 hours and I've been up since 3 on this last stretch. I'm getting to the point where I can't take it anymore as this is a regular occurrence.

Notafoodbabyanymore Wed 31-Oct-12 05:21:43

I managed to deflect the heat from you on the last thread and onto myself for admitting that I'd allowed my daughter to (shock, horror) CRY IT OUT!!!

I totally understand this is not an easy decision, but is necessary for some of us. Well done for sticking with it, glad to hear things are going well for you.


MrsMargoLeadbetter Wed 31-Oct-12 05:40:10

Well done OP, sounds like you are getting there.

We did it earlier with our DS afraid to say how early after the last thread and I am really glad we did, it was right for us. He has been a good sleeper since and even at 4.5 he is good at bedtime.

It sounds like you are doing this anyway, but I found that ensuring there was a bed routine helped; so music on, curtains shut, sleeping bag on esp during the day.

Hope it keeps working. Longer periods of sleep await you!

MummyVicky Maybe try gradual withdrawal first? That's what I've been doing with my DS since he was just after 4 months. It's a longer process - it's still ongoing as we speak over a month later, but things are MUCH better than they were. Prior to starting I had been having about three broken hours sleep a night for almost two months and since he won't nap for longer than 30 mins during the day I was getting no catch-up sleep. It's basically letting them cry but staying with them the whole time, giving pats, kisses, comfort etc. DS still wakes three times a night for a big feed each time, which is still a bit exhausting, but age-appropriate so I don't mind (for now), but I can now put him in his cot afterwards and know he'll settle himself to sleep if he wakes up for non-hungry reasons within about 5 minutes, without needing the boob and holding, holding, holding, white noise, holding, holding, holding...

appleandplum Wed 31-Oct-12 20:11:39

I have just started tonight to try some sort of cc with my 9month old. He is mixed fed and has really only ever fed to sleep (apart from in car/pushchair). Tonight he cried for about 30 mins with me going in every few mins but got worse and worse and wouldn't even calm down when i patted/stroked him. I eventually gave in and held him till he went to sleep as i couldn't take the crying any more (dh working away so on my own, with 3 other dc's to tidy up from). I feel this is an improvement as at least not bf to sleep - or am i just kidding myself?

MummyVicky18 Wed 31-Oct-12 20:21:16

elphabathegreen that sounds like it might be better. So you just stay with him throughout him crying & reassure him (not picking him up) Do I just perceiver even if there are tears/hysterical crying? Coz that's what he does until he's picked up/fed usually.

DS is nearly 5 months and will only go to sleep bf & he's waking every 2 hours. DH seems unable to settle DS either so it's all on me atm and I'm exhausted sad

Yes Mummy. To my surprise when we did it, we never got hysterical crying (which I'd braced myself for and was dreading). He was more irate and shouty, which actually subsided after 15-20 minutes when he started fiddling (sheet, stuffed dog, hands, mobile which was instantly taken down, never to be seen again--) and humming irritably. He oscillated between these states, throwing in the odd cheesy grin and latest gymnastic feat, for about two hours before finally waving the white flag, sticking his fingers in his mouth and knocking off. We got this for about three nights in a row --at one a fecking m. I did cave on night two because I was convinced he'd descended into hysterical crying, but DH assured me after the fact that he really hadn't and that I was somewhat 'coloured' by the preceding weeks of outrageous fatigue. I got back on the horse the following night, and within a week he was able to fall asleep in his cot within 5-10 mins with one of us patting, maybe kissing his lovely-smelling cheek occasionally and clutching his blankets so he didn't kick them off again and again and again.

When I say it's a work in progress, DS is at the stage now where your DC is - he wakes every 2-3 hours for a feed, which is only up to me, being the one with the, ahem, equipment. Prior to this he was awake 4-5 times a night and needed holding for half an hour or more before I could get him back in his cot, so I was getting 30 mins of 'sleep' between each waking. Hideous.

I'm not willing to start trying to drop the night feeds until after he's six months and we see what effect solids and nursery (starting 3 half days a week on Monday) have on him as he has proper, both sides feeds each time during the night, not just a resettling nibble the way some babies do. If that was all he did, I'd probably do more of the same to try and sort it. He feeds every 1-1.5 hours during the day so he is a hungry Horace and obviously needs the calories. He only naps for half an hour each time during the day, but this has also improved since starting training - they were previously only ever on me and he'll now have them in his pram or in his cot. I do still feed to sleep - the main difference is I can now get him straight into his cot or pram and know he'll stay there, even if he wakes up a bit during the transfer (much more so at night than during the day - I don't tend to push it so much during the day, prioritising the night sleeping). We haven't had one of his awful, awful one-hour-plus overtired tantrums since starting. Those really did upset me and were one of the reasons I decided to use an approach involving crying - after PUPD and plain old pat-shh didn't work - as I really didn't see how anything could be worse for him (or me) than that. I was also not going to last physically or emotionally to see if he'd 'sort himself out'.

So still a bit to iron out over time, but huge improvements on what it was and I've got a strategy which I'm happy with, and that he now recognises if I want to start addressing other areas.


Oops. Overkill on the old strikethru there. Dunno what happened. Blame the sleep deprivation grin

babybouncer Thu 01-Nov-12 04:07:24

Tonight dd fell asleep with absolutely no crying. A few moans sleepy noises only. She'd had three naps - one while out in pushchair, one with no crying in cot and one which took 30 mins. It is now 4am and this is the first time she's woken up. I've just had 6 hours sleep - and there's still more nighttime left!

Well done! thanks I bet you don't recognise yourself.

Notafoodbabyanymore Thu 01-Nov-12 08:15:51

Best feeling ever! Well done you. smile

If anyone's still on this, what do you do in the case of illness? DS has a cold at the moment. When he finished feeding I put him straight into his cot, but he immediately woke up and screamed like the bad old days, and it just got worse so I've cuddled him into a deep sleep the way I used to, rather than riding it out and patting/shushing. For those on here that have gone through anything like CC or gradual withdrawal, is it a return to square one or do they settle more easily again once they're feeling better? I don't know if I could cope with doing it all over again sad <worried emoticon>

BlingLoving Fri 02-Nov-12 22:14:22

Elphaba : there was always an element of 2 steps forward, 1 1/2 steps back for us. But... I reminded myself that a) things do get better and b)it was still an improvement

Not that ds' sleep is perfect now but it's better. We did as little as possible while he was sick/teething but accepted he would need more cuddles from us than we were aiming for.

It's all gone Pete Tong here with this cold. I've had to hold him into a deep sleep after each of his three to four wakenings the last two nights and I haven't had more than an hour and a half of unbroken sleep in that time (and, yes, I've got his cold as well so feeling utterly miserable). We're going to have to start the training again once his cold has cleared because sitting and holding him when I can barely keep my eyes open is utter, utter torture, and then when I've gone through all of that only to have him wake and scream again when I haven't got the timing quite right...similarly I'm sick at the thought of having to redo the training.

Please tell me it doesn't take as long if you have to repeat it...? sad

Seriouslysleepdeprived Sun 04-Nov-12 13:21:13

I think it depends on how long they are ill for. DS had one cold & was disrupted but went back to his good sleep pattern, with a bit of re-shh-ing. Much to my relief.

He then got another cough/cold & a tummy bug & would only sleep on me/with me (if at all). We had a week of him literally not sleeping from 10pm to 3-4am. It was awful.

We've now gone back to the constant waking that we had before. It makes me feel sick thinking we are back to that, so im sleep training again to try & improve things.

On day three and he woke at 11,1.30, 3, 5 but settled relatively quickly. Not great but he's back in the cot. I'm not doing CC as its not for me. Think the gradual withdrawal takes but bit longer but at least I know he's trainable IYSWIM.

Gradual withdrawal is what we've done with DS in the past and what I'll have to do again once this lurgy has passed. Haven't ruled out CC entirely, but it will be a last resort if things are still horrendous by the time I go back to work in the new year.

God, it's like a rock and a hard place, isn't it? The horror of repeated wakenings and forcing yourself to stay awake and permanent zombie-like state versus the hideousness of sleep training. Has no one found the shut down switch yet?

MillionPramMiles Mon 05-Nov-12 15:44:42

Hi all - am looking for a bit of advice from those who have had to do the hard slog of CC....
After 3 months of 1-2 hourly waking every night (and a minor nervous breakdown by me :0... My 6 month old dd now tends to settle herself to sleep when first put down at night and will more often than not settle herself back to sleep during the night too. i didnt really do CC as such, but i started going into her less or taking longer to go in, simply through sheer exhaustion. There are very few meltdowns or prolonged crying sessions during the night now.

BUT her daytime napping is still terrible (always has been), only half hour in the morning and half hour in the afternoon. I'd be happy to play with her all day if that was all the sleep she needed but she gets very tired and grisly. If I leave her in her cot she really starts crying and I cave in and take her out. (Pram, car seat and sling have never worked, the cot seems to be the only option).
If I do CC during the day, I'm worried dd will find being in her cot stressful and start not sleeping at night again. She has cuddly toys she likes to cuddle in her cot (have tried to make it a nice place to be...).

Ay tips, advice or reassurance gratefully received...

Hi MillionPram - I couldn't face the crying by day as well as by night. I've detailed my nap strategy here on another thread.

MillionPramMiles Mon 05-Nov-12 19:09:13

Thanks elphaba - that link takes me to your earlier post on this thread, is that what you meant?
I've tried staying with dd if she cries but usually she just cries more. If I leave her for a few minutes she's more likely to wind down and go to sleep. We even have a camera in her room so I can see if she's really upset or just calling out while playing with her bunnies smile
It took 45 mins of shush pat this afternoon but eventually she went back to sleep for an grateful for that!

No, sorry. Eejit functioning on very little sleep. This one.

MillionPramMiles Mon 05-Nov-12 20:02:27

Thx elphaba, sound advice re the daytime routine. I do try to put dd down every 2 hours ish, usually only after a feed though. Also have sleep associations (music box, bunny etc). She usually goes down ok but is wide awake after half an hour and its a real battle getting her down again.
Totally agree with your other post btw, I don't think there is any real sleep solution that doesn't involve crying and the meltdowns from tiredness are worse.

Saltytomato Thu 08-Nov-12 20:23:56

Can I ask you all a question?

I have the Ferber book and started sleep training today with his naps, which actually went briliantly! He got himself to sleep with no crying the first 2 naps and 20 mins the third nap. Tonight is my first night. It will be the first night that I am eliminating nighttime feeds, after slowly reducing them over the past week.

My baby is 5.5 months and I know it is young, but he is a nightmare over night and I think I get about 2 hours sleep per night (he gets about 6 hours!)I can barely function during the day and he is crabby too, so this is a last resort. He is also in the 100th percentile for height and weight and is eating 3 small meals a day and about 40 ounces so there is no actual need for him to eat at night too!

Anyway, my question is, do you feed your babies at night and if so, how long would you wait? I know by my DS's age he should be sleeping about 11-12 hours but I don't know if he will be able to go that long without a should I feed him if he wakes after say 6 hours?

Another question, if your baby wakes up early at say 5.30am do you start your day from there and just give them an extra nap or do you keep a strict schedule and try and get them to stay awake until their planned nap time?

Thanks for any help....

I feed at night and intend on leaving it like that for a while yet (maybe...4-5 wakings a night is wearing me down). Don't know what the advice would be re: dropping feeds under 6 months - it's a grey area to which I'm inclined to say 'don't' but I'm BF on demand so it's a different kettle of fish (I think). I think Millpond book says 3 feeds per night is normal at this age, IIRC.

Early wakings - I'd say you're asking for trouble keeping your DS awake. Mine would be a screaming mess if I kept him awake longer than two hours from each waking. Getting and keeping him asleep would then be an impossibility and the screaming would probably have me in tears too.

Before everything went awry with this cold which is still dragging on (and it remains terribly, terribly awry - I am sick with exhaustion sad) it was appearing quite effective to keep the light off until a better wake-up time of 7am (or equivalent time, 12ish hours after bedtime). He'd charge around merrily in his cot in the dark and would often conk out again when light didn't come on, so I don't know if that's worth a try?

Saltytomato Fri 09-Nov-12 09:06:54

Thanks elpha. I read the Ferber book from cover to cover and he said after 5 months babies don't need night feeds... But I guess that is only one opinion.

Last night went brilliantly though. I figured I would try and stretch him to 5 hours between feeds so when he woke at 11.30 I did the progressive waiting approach, he didn't get frantic, but grizzled until about 1am and then fell asleep til 5.30am, I fed him and then he slept until 8am! I couldn't believe it.

It's the best night we have had in AGES. He is happy and well rested today smile

ElmMum Fri 09-Nov-12 10:52:20

Hello, can I join in?

I wanted to post a good news story re sleeping and CC and this thread seems like the best place to put it. It's (really) long (sorry!), but I need to get it off my chest and also hopefully it will give people some hope that it can be done!

DD2 is nearly 8 months. She's been a pretty awful sleeper from the start. First bit, obviously, just feeding on demand through the day and night, so didn't expect her to sleep well. But then she started teething and got first two teeth at 4 months. She teethed continually, and painfully, until 7 months when she finally broke her 8th tooth!

Over that period she was swaddled and sleeping in the pram downstairs (to avoid waking up DD1). We often needing to bob and weave about with her over the shoulder before being put into the pram asleep. Many evenings were spent walking round in circles in the living room, pushing her in the pram, with white noise roaring out of the computer. Other times, I'd be crouched over holding the dummy in her mouth without making eye contact. Many nights she slept in the pram beside the dishwasher, which we would put on repeatedly through the night while one of us slept on the sofabed nearby.

We gradually dropped elements of this ludicrous routine but each time it was a struggle. Stopping swaddling was the hardest (she is a big baby and she was breaking out of her swaddle and I was worried it was starting to look like a throttling hazard). She windmilled her arms violently and just couldn't drop off unless we pinned her arms to her sides/to the mattress (gently, of course!). She would fight and cry and then eventually give in.

Bit by bit, we made slow progress. Swaddle gone, white noise only when we really couldn't get her to sleep, into the cot upstairs rather than the pram etc. But none of it easy. We got her bedtime routine sorted finally, which we'd struggled to do for ages because of doing tea, bath and bed for DD1. And her daytime naps improved - she was getting better at settling herself and going through a single 45 minute cycle without needing help over to the next cycle.

But she still had only ever slept through the night once since birth and she was never predictable. Sometimes (hardly ever) she would go to sleep straight away. Other times you had to do a constant cycle of picking up, putting down, offering bottle, offering dummy, holding arms, leaving, coming back, offering dummy again, over and over in different combinations until eventually she would turn her head to the side and you'd think 'yes, she's going'. It could take up to 45 minutes to get her to sleep and sometimes she'd be awake again 20 minutes later. This would happen at least 3 or 4 (sometimes more) times a night. Soul-destroying.

But at least we weren't sleeping beside the dishwasher, so we felt like things were heading in the right direction!

Then at around 6 months we started to go backwards. She started waking up between bedtime and dream feed. All of a sudden, she was waking 4 or 5 times every evening, and then constantly through the night. DD1 had just started school, so to avoid her being shattered all day (they share a room), we started feeding DD2 when she woke up to stop her from crying/to get her back to sleep, or whisking her into our room when she just wouldn't settle.

We agonised over whether she was in some kind of pain. She would lift her legs up and whomp them down over and over, and cry with a really pained expression on her face. So we cut out dairy (other than her formula bottles) and wheat.

We agonised over whether she was hungry (she's big!) or whether she'd eaten too much (she likes her food!).

DH was exhausted from weeks of taking DD downstairs in the night to sleep on the sofa bed with her. He was getting depressed at the lack of sleep and lack of progress. I just felt more and more like a failure. Why couldn't we read what she wanted? Why couldn't she sleep? What was wrong? Why were daytime naps relatively painless now but night time sleep so disrupted?

So I decided (after a lot of reading) that we would do CC during half term. DH would take DD1 away to visit relatives for the week and I would do CC with DD2. The first night, DD1 went for a sleepover so DH and I could do CC together. Then the following 4 nights, I did it alone.

I read the Millpond Sleep Clinic book and followed their instructions to the letter. I think that was the key, and also that I prepped DH in advance - a lot - so he didn't derail things in the middle of the night. By this stage, I was confident that DD's waking was habit and becoming ingrained (just a gut feeling) and also felt like we'd got as far as we could doing things gently. I also took her to the docs to check her ears, tummy and breathing, just in case she had some kind of underlying pain, which she didn't.

So, we did usual bedtime routine. Bottle at 6pm, bath, dim lights in bedroom, gentle singing, into sleepsuit, rest of bottle on lap, into sleeping bag, into cot, give her the dummy (attached to a Sleepytot, highly recommended!), kiss on the head, night night. Leave.

Then wait out of sight by door and observe. As soon as she started to cry properly (not just intermittent grizzling, babbling or shouting), timer went on. After exactly 5 minutes, into the bedroom not too close to cot - definitely not right up to cot and definitely, absolutely no touching her - a couple of sentences "come on DD2, you're fine, go to sleep now, see you in the morning, night night" and leave.

Back to the door to observe. Timing only from when crying starts. After 10 minutes of crying repeat going in, talking but not touching. Leave. After crying for 15 minutes repeat going in. And so on. So, 5 mins of crying, then 10 mins, then 15 mins, and every 15 mins after that.

The first night she cried 5 mins, then 10 mins and fell asleep after a few minutes of the first 15. She woke quite a few times over the course of the evening but each time we repeated the steps above and she cried for 5 mins, 10 mins, and some of the first 15. It wasn't fun but I knew once we started we had to see it through and we were resolved to do it, so no caving.

Gave her dream feed as usual at 10pm, she went straight to sleep afterwards. She woke once at 2am and did a bit of half-hearted crying for 5 minutes and went to sleep. AND SLEPT TIL 7am!!!

Second night, she cried for 5 mins plus a bit of the 10. Then went to sleep, had a dream feed at 10pm and SLEPT THROUGH THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NIGHT!

Third and fourth nights. SHE SLEPT THROUGH! (A couple of little cough-y type cries a couple of times, which woke me up but didn't require any intervention.)

And she has slept through ever since - now 2 weeks and counting. Including through a nasty stomach bug.

Believe me, this seems like a miracle to us. She sometimes cries when she's first put down for either naps or bedtime, but it's not for more than a couple of minutes and then she's asleep.

So, in total she probably cried for maybe 45 minutes but not in a row - over 3 or 4 nights, and in 5, 10 or 15 minute bursts. Never more than 15 minutes in a row.

She is happy and smiling and laughing during the day (as she was before), and there are no signs of any distress or change in personality at all. Other than me and DH are human again and enjoying having two DDs in a way we haven't been able to until now.

So, if you've tried everything else and your DCs are 6 months and above, and you're gut feeling is that they're not hungry or in pain, but just in bad habits, and you're sure you can see it through and do it properly, I'd say go for it. And good luck!

Welcome Elm. Good to hear someone's getting some sleep and that it seems to be working for you.

Don't know if anyone else is still hanging around this thread but I need a rant because I'm trying to put a stoic face on it IRL. Apologies in advance when if I get sweary.

I am So. Fucking. Tired.

DS lulled me into a false sense of security for the first 12 weeks of his life, sleeping from 9pm until 6am with a quick feed at 4am. I was so smug about my lovely little boy sleeping through the night. For the first six of those weeks, I could even put him down awake in his cot and have him fall asleep himself within about five minutes.

Then gradually, it all just went horribly, horribly wrong. First the number of night wakings to feed went from one, to two, to three. Then I suddenly stopped being able to put him straight back into his cot after a night feed - I had to hold him for half an hour after every feed before he could go back or he'd scream. Then night wakings went up to four, plus the holding. Then he stopped napping for any longer than half an hour during the day, unless he was sleeping on me. Either way, I was getting no catch up sleep.

Then we moved his bedtime earlier and did a bit of gradual withdrawal to break the holding thing. One week of hell, and he was going straight back into his cot for night feeds.

Then the night wakings went up to five.

He's now had a cold that's lasted about two weeks and he's back to having to be held for 20-30 mins after every waking which are now up around 6-8 every night.

So in addition to not having had a block of sleep longer than three hours in 14 weeks, I have subsisted on a sleeping pattern where I get around 40 minutes of sleep in every hour, followed by 30 minutes of holding for the past two of those weeks. I even tried co-sleeping, which scares me to death and makes me sleep so lightly there's hardly any point to it. Doesn't make any difference to him anyway - he doesn't sleep any longer, and still needs me to hold him before I put him on the bed next to me.

I go to bed when he does at 6:30pm because the longest stretch of sleep I know I'll get is somewhere between 7 and 10. I haven't been out in the evening since he was born. I haven't had an evening in with my DH, just the two of us in front of the TV eating crap food, in months.

If anyone else tells me this is 'perfectly normal', 'he needs his mummy' and 'this too shall fucking pass' I'll probably scream, and if I see anyone else on here moaning about being horribly sleep deprived because their DC is waking twice every night while napping beautifully and sleeping otherwise from 7 til 7, I'll probably lose my jolly outward demeanour and, in a phrase from my yoof in the Antipodes, 'cut sick' (i.e. totally, utterly and homicidally lose it).

All that said, I adore my DS and don't resent him for one second, for which I feel very grateful and lucky. I also have an amazing, wonderful, supportive DH who does everything he can, even if it's not a great deal at 2am...3am...3:40am...

But God, I wish, I wish my child would fucking SLEEP!

That is all. Thank you for reading thanks

Saltytomato Fri 09-Nov-12 19:45:31

elpha you poor thing. My DS only sleeps for 30 mins naps during the day as well. I am from Oz too, not that that helps much!

My DS isn't as bad as yours, thank god, your post actually made me feel a bit better to be honest, as horrible as that sounds. You must be having a hell of a time.

Are you doing CC?

I hope it's ok the I joined this thread too, I just jumped on in my sleep deprived haze!

I haven't done CC yet but I'm not averse to it. We're getting his tongue tie (belatedly) sorted in the hope that it might make him want to feed less. We're going to take him to a cranial osteopath which I have heretofore dismissed as lentil-weaving hooey, but if someone told me that baying naked at the moon had a modicum of success, I'd probably give it a shot. Then, if there are persistent sleep issues (which I will expect so as not to get myself bitterly disappointed yet again) I will take him to the doctor to have him cleared of all medical issues, after which I will do another round of gradual withdrawal before moving him into his own room. I'll probably stick with the gradual withdrawal unless I hit a wall, in which case, yes, I will probably do CC.

If I reach that point, I will start a thread titled, 'I'm doing CC. Try me.' and woe betide anyone who tries to suggest I haven't considered other options or that they 'all sort themselves out in the end, given time'.

He has now woken up four times since I put him in his cot at 7. This is going to be a fucking awful night.

PS Glad I made you feel better. Sort of. Cobber wink

ElmMum Sat 10-Nov-12 19:44:26

Elph I feel your pain, I really do. I totally sympathise. It is soul-destroying, life-ruining-ly - awful, and no one really wants to hear about the full, terrible details IRL. I could happily have brained DH a few times (and him, me) in the middle of the night with both of us glaring wild-eyed at each other, hissing expletives so as not to wake up DD1, while bobbing about with DD2, trying to get her the f* to sleep...

The worse thing is you can't even go out for the evening as a couple to get away because you can't really give them to anyone else. My mate kept saying she'd come and babysit but really, how can you have a babysitter when you know they're going to wake up every 30 minutes and need some kind of black art, only understood by their delirious parents, to get them back to sleep?!

So rant away. All I can say is, you were us just a couple of weeks ago. DD2 was doing exactly what your DS is doing. Get the tongue tie sorted, do the cranial what-not, see the doc and all that. You'll feel better once you get to CC knowing you've done everything you can. It gave me the resolve to do CC and do it properly. You won't look back.

Really good luck and I hope you get some sleep soon smile

Thanks Elm. Yeah - the in-laws keep kindly offering to look after him so we can have an evening out.

Three hours with the non-sleeping bottle-refuser and they probably wouldn't be offering again in a hurry. Nor would we be accepting, not least because of the humiliation I would have endured by falling asleep in the restaurant, snoring gently while my cheek rested on the starter.

teacher123 Sun 11-Nov-12 07:15:53

I think maybe you should accept the Inlaws offer and go out for dinner! They won't mind if he's unsettled, people are much less sensitive to other people's babies crying than they are to their own. From when DS was 8 weeks old I had rehearsals two nights a week and had to leave him with either DH or grandparents. They had some fun evenings, I can assure you! However I cannot express how important it was to get away from the darkened room of 'go the hell to sleep'! Twice a week, not my problem. Even if you just snooze into your starter! Hope things get better soon

Saltytomato Sun 11-Nov-12 09:58:09

Hey ladies, hope you are ok. I started doing the Ferber progressive waiting approach...

The first night he full on cried for about 15 mins then grizzled for another hour, the second he cried for 5 mins and then grizzled for 25 and last night he just grizzled for about 15 mins! For the last 3 nights he has gone 10.5 hours between feeds! I've been putting him down at 7pm and he has been waking around 5.30am, I have fed him and there has slept til 7/8am!

Also he has been going down for naps with no crying at all and falling asleep within 15 mins. It is a miracle.

Honestly, I thought he was going to cry for hours, but he barely even cried the first night! I have just been too much of a wimp to want to do anything like it and now it's me waking every couple of hours to make sure he is ok, rather than him waking me up!

bonbonpixie Mon 12-Nov-12 03:20:09

Hi all can I join?
So DD is 6 months old today and I have honestly not slept longer than a three hour stretch since in over three months. Right now I have stomach flu and DD is out in the car with DH because I can't do the feed-to-sleep-every-30-minutes dance we do every night.
The thing is I know I have no one else to blame that DD cannot self settle. Really don't know what to do and most days just feel like crying when my well meaning friends talk about their LO's waking twice in the night!
Long story short. We co-sleep and are struggling to get DD back out of bed into her own cot, but as DH's job takes him overseas for extended periods of time (he's just home after 6 weeks away) it always seemed easier to just stick DD on to feed when she woke than get up and do the walking/rocking thing.
Next problem is she won't take a bottle or a dummy for that matter so I am stuck in this feeding on demand nightmare and haven't had a single break from her since she was born. A few weeks ago I really tried every evening giving a bottle of formula, not only would she not take it, but now is covered almost head to toe in itchy baby eczema. I can see her trying to rub her chest in her sleep, something that adds to the rubbish sleep. Doctor has given us some cream but as yet it doesn't seem to be helping much.
Next teething, nothing through yet but she has all of the classic symptoms and will sometimes settle if given calpol so I think she may have some gum pain.
She will roll both ways happily during the day but at night seems to get stuck on her tummy and then wakes up.
We have started weaning, and is going well but has made absolutely no difference to her sleep.
Napping during the day is sporadic at best and we never know if it will be half and hour or two.
I know that we will most likely do CC at some point but just have no idea when to start as we have so many other issues to solve first!
Anyone else that ebf - when did you become confident that night wakings aren't hunger driven?
Any advice really as my lovely little girl is turning into a grumpy screaming mess during the day now and DH' and I seem to be disagreeing over everything. All in all we're in a truly awful situation.

Thanks for reading. Sorry for the rant!

Welcome bonbon at this ungodly hour smile

We seem to share a lot of issues and similar levels of sleep deprivation. My DH is currently in the bathroom with a stomach flu. If I catch it off him, I really haven't the faintest, faintest idea how I'll cope, because mine will not take bottles. I foresee a lot of lying on the bathroom floor crying with DS lying next to me, joining in.

I disagree with you that your DC's sleeping problems are your own fault. Some babies are just tough customers and are very good at quickly cementing their preferred ways of settling. You give the example of choosing to feed to sleep rather than walking and rocking. I'm pretty sure your DC (I've completely lost track of the sex, sorry, and I can't see your post while typing) would simply have decided walking and rocking was his/her preferred way of settling and become just as dependent on that. Feeding to sleep is a far quicker and more manageable solution for all at 3am I'm sure! I look back frequently, as you do in the wee small hours, at how I ended up in this sleepless situation and I honestly, honestly can't see how doing anything differently would have made any differently. DS was just cut out to be a craptacular sleeper. It's only those useless sleep books that like to make you think you could have done something about it.

Mine feeds to sleep, but I've also discovered, in the depths of night, that picking him up and holding him in feeding position is actually enough to knock him out in seconds. The thing that makes me want to scream is his nursery can get him asleep in nothing flat - he even falls asleep, yes, falls asleep in a bouncer in the middle of the play room. I haven't seen him do that since he was about six weeks old. Will he do it for me? Nope. Boob or bust.

No answers, sorry, just solidarity. We'll also be getting some physiological stuff sorted out before embarking on any sleep training, so hope yours gets sorted quickly so you can get on with finding a solution. Meanwhile, I shall get on with preparing divorce papers in the event of DH lumbering me with this vomiting bug.

*her and *would have made any difference (not differently, fecking predictive text)

discombobwotsit Mon 12-Nov-12 04:00:34

another one joining in, i also have diabolically sleeping 5 month old ds2.

he wakes every 30 mins up till about 9pm, just to ensure i get no evening to myself. Then he rather generously extends this to every hour once i give in and go to bed - but he throws in the added inconvenience of doing all his poos at night so i have to change him and he will then be awake for 1-2 hours, at least once a night and sometimes up to three times.

I've now been holding him since midnight as he wakes when i try to put him down, I've only had 1hr50 mins of sleep tonight + can't see me getting much more now. Tomorrow is going to be, erm, interesting!

I'm waiting another few weeks + then going for some sleep training, I had great success with ds1 doing 'spaced soothing' - a form of cc where you leave them for 1 min and increase this by 1 minute each time, so not leaving them for as long. Don't know how successful I will be with ds2 though as he likes to puke spectacularly if left to cry for even a couple of minutes, but I have to do something + all other methods are failing!

I found an interesting site where a scientist mum reviewed all the research about cc, worth a read if you are considering it - i don't think cc is as bad as people make out, and certainly not worse than severe sleep deprivation! Also explains that more likely to be successful between 5.5 and 8 months due to developmental things going on outside of these times. Will try + link it if my sleep deprived brain can manage it smile

discombobwotsit Mon 12-Nov-12 04:03:15

ok, trying to link - here

I'm also going to try cranial osteopathy this week to see if it will help as a last ditch attempt before sleep training

Hope everyone manages to get a little rest before daybreak!

Yep - Science of Mom blog. I think it's great.

Just put DS back in his cot after last posting. He lasted 5 minutes. Got our cranial osteopathy appointment today. I hope she has a magic wand because I feel like death.

discombobwotsit Mon 12-Nov-12 04:16:20

ooh good luck for today then, fingers crossed it does the job.

I've given up trying to put him down, don't want his screams to wake ds1 - I defo couldn't cope today if he's grumpy from lack of sleep too grin

Seriouslysleepdeprived Mon 12-Nov-12 15:43:50

Just read that link, really interesting. Sleep deprivation is no joke. Feeling totally on the edge after a hideous night. DH is away so on my own & losing patience with the constant waking & crying. I'm just so fucking tired sad

DH had the stomach bug recently. He also had it when DS was 12 weeks & gave it to him. Was awful, he was really ill with it. I banished him to a room this time, then bleached & boil washed everything insight. Didn't let him near DS until 48 hours after the last 'episode'. We escaped it thankfully.

Also EFBing (& solids now). It's hard to know what hunger & what habit. I'm desperate to stop night feeds. DS has reflux do I have up hold him upright for 30mins after each feed. This basically means I'm awake for at least an hour each time.

I won't feed him unless i absolutely have to. He does go 9-12 hrs between feeds. If I can't get him off shhing then I'll feed him. I have a rule that if he can go 3-4 hours by day, he can do it a night & won't feed outside this.

Hope the cranialO was good. Hey did help with feeding may be I should take him back!!

discombobwotsit Mon 12-Nov-12 19:27:15

hey seriously

sorry you had a bad night, last night was also my worst one by far, only got 2hrs sleep in total so i know how you feel. When is your dh home? Hope tonight is a better one for you.

ds2 has let dh settle him for naps today + for sleep tonight so hopefully we're starting to breaking the feed/sleep association - and at the risk of jinxing it, it looks like he has gone through to the next sleep cycle by himself, which is the first time for about a month

I'm off for yet another early night, so i wish everyone a peaceful night and sincerely hope i won't be on here all night again grin

After midnight last night I got half an hour of sleep, and not all at once. Before midnight I had a broken two hours. Maybe there was something in the air last night? I've quarantined vomiting DH into the en suite spare bedroom until he's 48 hours clear. When he asked me to bring him some toast I burst into tears. Sigh.

Apparently DS has a 'hard head' with 'tight membranes' and his jaw (alarmingly) 'needs to be rehung'. Whatevs. He got a gentle head rub and he was riveted by a Thomas the Tank toy they had. Let's see if it's done any good, eh? <she says with futile hope>

Time for the first lap to cot transfer of the night. Wish me luck. Nighty night!

Awake sad

Seriouslysleepdeprived Mon 12-Nov-12 21:30:25

It's so depressing when they wake up on transfer. It makes my heart sink having already been sat there for 45 mins, to then start the whole thing all over again.

I've started a self settling regime in the hope it helps him over night. He went down tonight awake in his cot & the same for all naps today. I'm sure feeding to sleep makes him wake more but we'll see.

I do rate the cranial osteopaths although costs a bloody fortune. DS had a lump near his crown where the plates had been pushed up from the labour. She managed to sort that in three sessions. He didn't sleep any better but feeding improved.

DH back later this week. He said to call if I get stressed out bless him. Hopefully will be a better night. Couldn't be much worse than last night don't jinx it.

AnyaKnowIt Mon 12-Nov-12 21:40:36

Just found this thread, my dd was a really bad sleeper (slept 1 hour, awake for 2 every night). I did do CC and tbh it was the best thing I could have done.

I can offer handholding to anyone that wants it smile

discombobwotsit Mon 12-Nov-12 22:31:32

Jeez. Its like a torturous Groundhog Day.

I'm sat here with ds2 who won't be put down. Again. Nor will he feed laying down so I can at least get some rest.

I know this too shall pass, but WHEN will it fucking pass??!

<passes round the matchsticks>

Gonna be a long night...

It makes me ill when I see people posting about their 3, 4 and 5 year olds with sleep problems...I have to be back at work in 2.5 months!

Sat here, again, holding DS, again, feeling my heart sink every time he coughs or wriggles because that means another 10 minutes at least sat here in the dark, battling exhaustion.

I wish this cold would eff off so we can just get on with doing something about this bloody sleep!! It has lasted about two weeks now! (the cold, not the hideous, endless non-sleeping.)

Yes, handholding will be needed at some point in the hopefully fairly near future lovely new person (can't see/recall your name, sorry!) so do hang about smile

bonbonpixie Tue 13-Nov-12 01:07:32

Thank you everyone for the kind and reassuring words.
Tonight however I have a different problem!! Just woke up. Still have this bug- so this evening after a couple of hours of trying to get DD to sleep without me feeding her DH plonked her in the buggy and set off for a walk round the block...that was at 9pm and she is still asleep in her buggy in the cold(ish) (maybe 16 degrees) vestibule. She is still in her pramsuit with a very warm down cover zipped over her. DH had plugged in a baby monitor and because of my bug I'm only really in the next room from the front door so can absolutely hear her should she wake. Started to be really annoyed with DH for leaving her in her pram etc until he pointed out that this is the longest she has slept in months! What should I do? Should I wake her to get her out of outside clothes or wait till she wakes up herself????

I'd get the down cover off. Apart from that, if she's in a coldish room leave her maybe...? I guess she's of an age now where overheating isn't as much of an issue as it once was.

On the occasions where we've taken DS out in the pram for the sole purpose of getting him asleep, I actually don't bother with any extra clothing because taking it off him when we get home would wake him up. Instead, I layer blankets over him, then maybe a beanie, which can always be easily removed once you're back inside without causing too much disturbance.

AnyaKnowIt Tue 13-Nov-12 12:24:23

I know its late but if she is asleep in her pram, leave her. She will let you know if she is too hot or cold.

Saltytomato Tue 13-Nov-12 13:02:22

My heart really goes out to you all and I can't believe that less than a week ago I was in the same boat. Honestly, read the Ferber book 'solve your child's sleep problems'. I was expecting my DS to cry and cry, but he barely did and honestly now he is going down for naps without any crying, falling asleep so quickly.
I still feed him to sleep at night (7pm)and then feed him at 5am because I figure 10 hours is a long time between feeds, then he sleeps until about 7.30am. It is lifechanging! I was so worried, but now realise it was the best thing for all of us.

magoosmom Tue 13-Nov-12 14:59:19

This thread is very timely for me, my DS is 14months old and wakes constantly. He used to sleep well if he was in our bed but the last few weeks he has been waking every 30mins, crying out and needing me to rock him/rub his back etc. When we got up this morning myself and my DH said we just can't do it anymore, we are beyond exhausted and really feel CC is the only way to go now. We were so against it, thought it was cruel but it's all too much for us now and we're giving it a go tonight. I feel bad just leaving him so was thinking of doing the gradual retreating approach but DH feels that will prolong the crying and we should just leave him. I'm at work now and actually have a knot in my stomach thinking about it all sad

magoosmom - When we were doing gradual retreat, there was one night where I was convinced - absolutely convinced - that DS had descended into hysterical crying. My DH assured me that the only hysterical cryer in the room at the time had been myself. I think it's probably very easy to let our feelings of guilt, displeasure at what we feel we need to do and months of hideous fatigue colour our interpretation of what we hear coming from our babies. I think the only way to manage it is to force an objective head on whenever you can: he's not ill, he's not in pain, he's not in danger and his distress will be fleeting (even if it doesn't seem like it at the time). Have a good read of that Science of Mom blog linked earlier. It's really reassuring and makes some excellent points. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. x

In other news, I took DS to the doctor for a check up today just to confirm that there was no physiological causes of his horrible sleep (there aren't). Doctor suggested sedative antihistamines. Wow. He suggested I drug my baby who is not quite 6 months old. And the sleep training police think we're barbaric for contemplating/doing CC!

bonbonpixie Tue 13-Nov-12 17:35:52

In the end we left her to sleep last night, and she did for 5 hours!!!! Absolutely amazing for us.
So irritating though as I couldn't sleep for worry and that I was soooo full of milk it hurt!
Can't believe your GP wanted to medicate a little baby!

magoosmom Tue 13-Nov-12 19:58:13

Elphaba thanks for your reassuring post, stayed with him for 45 minutes and then left the room, I can't believe I'm letting him CIO but I think it will be easier in the long run, when Im there he's hanging over the cot with his arms out howling for me to pick him up sad he might give up and go to sleep quicker if im not there. This is horrific. I won't mind but I read every book going on routines/sleeping and here I am 14 months without sleep.

magoosmom Tue 13-Nov-12 20:13:51

he's gone to sleep :-) one hour and one minute (to be exact) after he went to bed. Hopefully he'll be able to self-settle during the night. Good luck to anyone who's doing it tonight.

AnyaKnowIt Tue 13-Nov-12 20:18:59

magoosmom - have a wine

I also found with dd that if she could see me, it made her worse. I used to put her into her cot, kiss her goodnight and tell her its night night time.

magoosmom Tue 13-Nov-12 20:32:59

Thanks Anya when she wakes in the night do you let her CIO or do you go into her?

AnyaKnowIt Tue 13-Nov-12 20:40:06

I used to go into her, but only to check to see if she is ok, if she is then I just said it still nighttime. If she cried I did what I did at bedtime and go back into her at 3mins, then back in after 5mins, then back at 10 mins if needed.

How's things, magoosmom? Was the rest of the night better?

<Sweary rant alert. Leave now if you're sick of hearing my moaning.>

Things are beyond the pale here. DS will now only sleep in bed with me until midnight (see my earlier comment about co-sleeping scaring me witless and barely allowing me to sleep), then will only sleep on me after midnight. I wrangled a way to both hold him and get in a position where I could sort of be comfortable enough to sleep, but he was still awake every half hour, needing me to put him back into his preferred holding position to fall asleep before I could wriggle down to try and sleep myself again. This awkward position has now triggered a relapse of a recurring neck problem I have. My god, I feel like 17 layers of shit. DH emerged from quarantine this morning and his kind query of, 'How are things going?' was just met with floods of tears. DS's fucking, fucking, FUCKING hacking cough will NOT let up so I really can't do anything sleep-training-wise until that's better as prolonged crying only makes it worse (as he demonstrated while screaming during a half-hour car journey the other day). DS is on a permanently short fuse, probably because his sleep is so interrupted and poor at the moment. I'm barely interacting with him because I'm so utterly shattered. I've missed more of his lovely baby groups than I've attended in the past few weeks because I just haven't had the energy to take him, and I don't feel terribly safe driving. This is what really breaks my heart because I love taking him to those and I'll never get the chance again, especially since I'm back at work full time at the beginning of Feb. His daytime waking hours seem to be taken up by me trying to find someone to take him for a couple of hours so I can claw back some sleep to see me through the next horrible night. Him starting in nursery was meant to finally allow some 'me' time to go to the gym, have a leisurely coffee or even get a clear shot at the housework that piles up while I'm busy with him. Nope. All I can do is try and sleep, or feel completely sorry for myself.

<End of self-pitying rant>

Please keep the success stories coming as it keeps me believing there's an end in sight.

Seriouslysleepdeprived Wed 14-Nov-12 14:27:02

Elpha I really feel for you. We had this hideous cough/cold thing. DS would also only sleep on me but was mostly awake from 10pm until 2-4am. It's awful when they're ill for so long & I felt like it would never end but his cold finally went after 3-4 weeks. It has kind of sent me over the edge though. I have no sleep in the bank & was only just surviving as it was.

I restarted the sleep training a couple of weeks ago, as his sleep habits had gone to pot. We're doing a type of gradual withdrawal I guess. Obviously involves a bit of crying initially but things are much improved. Today I feel we are back on track, with two good nights in a row. He woke once before midnight & I got him back off without a feed (my main aim). Then he woke at 5am, fed & went back until 8am.

I was close to a breakdown Monday after the night from hell but two good nights, I feel like a new person. It will get better soon. The cold will go and you have your DH now to help at least. They enjoy the groups much more at 7 months + anyway. Just get the sleep in while you can smile

ElmMum Wed 14-Nov-12 15:11:15

Elpha you poor thing. It's so grim and there seems no end in sight. But the cough will go - what has the doc said? Can they give him anything? - and when the cough is gone, do the sleep training asap. You need things to change soon. Good luck, keep your chin up. Hand holding available here too, when the time comes.

magoosmom Wed 14-Nov-12 20:47:46

great news to report from this house smile DS went to sleep at 8pm (after 1 hour crying) last night, whimpered at 12.30am, cried for 2/3mins at 5am and then woke for the day at 7.40am, almost 12hours! a miracle for us, he has never done that. We felt like new people all day grin So this evening myself and DH were debating how long he'd cry for 1hour? 2hours? we put him in his cot, kissed him and walked out of the room, he roared cry for.....30/40 seconds yes, you read that correctly, SECONDS! He stopped crying so abruptly that I thought he's died/choked, DH thought maybe we'd forgotten to put the side of the cot up and he'd fallen out, hit his head and gone unconscious! so DH snuck back in to check and he was lying down still awake but ready to nod off! We can't believe it grin .Who knows what the night will bring but we're delighted for now.
Elphaba you have my sympathies , DS was lying on me all weekend and I just could NOT TAKE IT ANYMORE. A word of warning I gather that your DS is younger than my DS? we tried to do this at 7 months and he cried for much longer, 2.5 hours of crying to get to sleep and another 2.5 hours during the night, then we gave up. Im not saying don't do it, do definately, I wish we'd stuck with it and been braver, just warning you than it could go on awhile.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 14-Nov-12 20:50:06

WooHoo magoosmom

magoosmom Wed 14-Nov-12 21:00:43

Thanks Anya hopefully it's not a fluke!

AnyaKnowIt Wed 14-Nov-12 21:02:07

Fingers crossed its not, it took dd 3 nights.

discombobwotsit Thu 15-Nov-12 08:56:06

that's great news magoosmom - its amazing how much better you feel after some sleep isn't it?

some success here also with 21 week old ds2. after two of the worst nights ever (sun/mon night) where I got less than 2 hours sleep and he got about 5 hours, we ended up doing a cross between cc and pu/pd.

dh had already started settling him for all naps and the first part of the night, but he was really bad once i went to bed + I couldn't settle him at all without letting him sleep on me. So on Tuesday night I just couldn't take it and me + dh both slept downstairs.

i fed him + put him down about 5.30pm because he was so overtired. If he was only protest crying then he was left for 5 mins, then dh went in + rocked him till sleepy again then put him down still awake - any distressed sounding crying + dh went straight back in (but to be honest, there wasn't really any!). After about 4 goes, he fell asleep on his own about 6.15. He then slept until 3.30am!! So it turns out I was disturbing him when i went to bed and just by being in the room!

He didn't really settle after that though and he whinged on + off till 6.30am. He had lots of naps yesterday and seemed to be catching up on sleep so we decided to sleep downstairs again last night.

I did last feed of the day + put him down, expecting that dh would need to resettle - but by the time I got downstairs + put the tv on (we have a camera on him!) he was asleep! Not a single sound smile

He slept till 1.30 am + I think i was too hasty in going to feed him, should have let dh try to settle first - seeing me woke him up too much + he whinged on + off till 4 am when I fed him again and he went back to sleep till 6.30am. I have just put him down for a nap for the first time in a week + he went down with no feeding or crying.

So me + dh have decided to sleep downstairs for the foreseeable now - we only have a 2 bed house and the two dc can't share so this is the best option until we can save to do an extension for a third room.

I really felt the cross between cc and pu/pd was a gentle way, ds2 clearly wouldn't settle with me there so having dh do the settling was best, and he was never left to cry for too long and never if he sounded really unhappy about it. I'm sure we will still have bad nights, but I feel much better that we have a plan + that I've finally had some kip!

Good luck to anyone else battling with sleep issues, its really no fun at all and sadly most people don't understand if they haven't experienced it - my mum had no idea that some babies don't 'sleep like babies' and my sister thinks its as easy as waiting for a tired sign and just putting them down!

magoosmom Thu 15-Nov-12 10:55:56

that's great news disco smile my DM has 8 kids and we all slept, she called me a martyr last week! but what can you do if they just want you all the time? the only solution is to leave them cry a bit, I never in a million years thought Id leave DS to cry alone in his room but WE. JUST. COULD . NOT.TAKE.IT.AMYMORE. I was sick of people who had DC the same age as DS saying how broody they are and cant wait to have another, my DH was saying during the summer that 1 was enough! DS was particularly bad from 20-26 weeks so you have my sympathy disco.

Last night was another sucess, after the initial less than a minute howl, he slept til 3.30am then cried hard for less than a minute and then silence til 6am, I debated going into him at 6am because he's been asleep since 7.30pm but we left him and again he stopped abruptly and stayed in his cot til 6.45am smile he was in good from but very clingy to me, I had to let him sit in my lap for 20mins and hug him, I suppose he's just not used to not seeing me during the night so must have missed me! after breakfast he played with his trucks while we got ready for work, before he would have been cross,cranky and overtired, I used to be thrilled to go to work to get a break blush. It's so nice to see him happy and well rested smile I have told the childminder to let him CIO at naptime so FX that works out ok.

discombobwotsit Thu 15-Nov-12 15:27:47

I'm glad you had another successful evening magoosmom, let's hope it continues - a well rested child is worth a few tears imho and for some children I don't think there is any other way - they just have to learn to do it themselves.

I don't know how you've coped for so long, ds2 is only 5 months and that's bad enough! Although I guess I'm still dealing with cumulative sleep deprivation since having ds1 three years ago - what I wouldn't give for a lie-in past 7am smile. Still, it won't be forever but you struggle to see the end when you're in the midst of it.

Good luck to everyone for tonight!

magoosmom Thu 15-Nov-12 21:52:18

Another good night here smile can't believe he got the hang of it so quickly, I was sure I was in for a week of hell. I think he was knackered after 14 months of interrupted sleep grin

AnyaKnowIt Thu 15-Nov-12 21:58:51

''a well rested child is worth a few tears imho and for some children I don't think there is any other way - they just have to learn to do it themselves''

I cannot agree with this ^ more. I felt like dd was a different child once she started sleeping, I even began to like her!

Another Woohoo to everyone getting some sleep grin

Cc works. It really does. A lot of mn seem to be anti (most of whom have terrible sleepers as dc as they havent tried it)I believe it works from a very early age... Ie 6 weeks ish (waits for a flaming) my (5) dc have slept 12 hours at night from 12 weeks. Happy content babies. Happy content family.

It's not like u just leave them to cry- the bubs are checked on- shhhhhhhed, loved.

Best of luck x

There's a nice old CC hooley going down on the Behaviour/Development forum which has raised one query for me. If/when DS EVER shakes this cough and we can get this sleep sorted, I had intended to still feed at night when he wakes. I don't mind doing this as long as I can put him straight back in his cot afterwards, which is the main thing I can't do at the moment. Would I be undermining whatever I was doing sleep-training-wise by doing this? And would my boobs explode?

discombobwotsit Fri 16-Nov-12 07:22:03

hi elphaba sorry to hear your poor ds still has his cough, hope he gets rid of it soon. How has he been after the cranial osteopathy? We took ds2 yesterday and he was quite calm after but struggled to nap in the afternoon + took an hour to settle for bed. Going to try another session in two weeks.

As for the feeding thing, I've been feeding on the first waking, which on nights 1+2 was after 9hrs and 7hrs so thought he needed it - but he didn't really settle afterwards each time so think I was disturbing him more.

So last night we said dh would try to settle first - but ds2 didn't wake till 5.45am, which was 11hrs! I fed him + he was wide awake so just got him up, and he went for a nap within an hour. I have to say my boobs were a tad uncomfortable when I woke up, but I remember with ds1 that the supply adjusted very quickly.

I actually got over 7 hours solid sleep last night before I woke to check on him, then an extra 1.5hrs before he woke up, so I feel pretty good today smile

And pleased to hear magoosmom had another peaceful night, let's hope it continues

magoosmom Fri 16-Nov-12 09:52:55

disco 11 hours wow! you must be thrilled today! When DS was that young I remember never being quite sure whether to feed or not and it got ridiculous with him feeding every hour or two all night long, I gave up BF at 7 months because of it. At least with a bottle I knew what he had drank previously and could decide based on that what was reasonable during the night.

Elphaba maybe give him a feed around 10/11am and then don't feed between midnight and 6am, I know a friend of mine had this rule and it worked well for her.

Ds went to sleep easily enough, he cried for about 30/40 seconds, then stopped, cried again, stopped, cried again, I found it hard. He woke at 1.20am and did the same on and off crying, never crying for more than 1 minute at a time but I felt awful, took me ages to go back to sleep, I hope he wasnt scared sad anyway he went back to sleep til 6.30am which was great. Myself and DH havent decided really what to do in the middle of the night, we've been lucky that he's never cried for long but Id hate to leave him CIO of an hour during the night in case he was sick, I think if he's still crying after 5 mins I will go into him, reassure him and then leave again, what do you think? DH thinks this will ruin what we've started.

discombobwotsit Fri 16-Nov-12 17:41:58

magoosmom yes, I'm very pleased with how well its going, considering where we were under a week ago - I was at rock bottom + really needed things to change, apparently so did ds2, as he's taken to it really quickly! Even if we have a bad night now, I will be much more able to cope as I've caught up a tiny bit.

Re going in during the night, I'm sure I read somewhere that as long as you vary the time taken to respond then they don't learn that a certain amount of crying earns attention, iyswim? Having said that, I probably would only go in if the crying was distressed and would ignore angry or protest crying.

Anyway, I hope you don't have to test that tonight + that he sleeps well smile

Saltytomato Fri 16-Nov-12 21:34:56

elpha in the Ferber book (he invented cry it out/progressive waiting) he says it is ok to feed to sleep and you can just do the progressive waiting for when you put your baby down afterwards. I chose a time that I thought was suitable (after 3am) and wouldn't feed him until after that.

I still feed my baby to sleep and I was doing a feed at 5am too, but last night he woke up at 1.30am so I didn't feed him and just did the progressive waiting, and then he didn't wake up again until 7.30am! So didn't have a night feed at all, but the bastards next door woke me up at 6.00am bashing around screaming at each other whilst they got ready for work.

Saltytomato Fri 16-Nov-12 21:43:38

magoo the progressive waiting approach means that you go in and comfort (I pick him up and make sure he doesn't need to burp the first time i go in) and then stroke his hair for a minute or 2. The intention isn't to stop him crying, but just to let him know that you are there for him, but you are not going to feed/cuddle etc.

You time the intervals, so on the first night I did 2 minutes/5 minutes/8 minutes/10 minutes and then every 10 minutes until I could tell he was starting to settle.

The next night you start at 5 mins/10 minutes/15 minutes and continuing every 15 minutes.

Don't go in if you can hear them starting to settle.

I did this with my baby last week and he took to it amazingly well, barely any crying and he is still the happiest little guy during the day, well happier now he is getting more sleep! Full of smiles and cuddles, so obviously not psychologically damaged!

He slept from 7pm-7.30am last night....a week ago he was waking 5 times.

I read the Ferber sleep training book from cover to cover so if you need any advice then ket me know.


magoosmom Sat 17-Nov-12 04:52:38

Thanks for that salty smile I've been very lucky he hasn't cried for longer than a minute or two during the night so I've never had to go in, he didn't even cry tonight (yet) smile I'm was just worried in case some night he was sick I wouldn't want him to be crying for ages in pain, if he sleeps well the next few days then I'll know if he wakes crying there must be something wrong. DS has sleeps almost 12 hours straight since Monday and the irony is I'm still constantly waking up !

discombobwotsit Sat 17-Nov-12 08:27:46

ha ha magoo I remember with ds1 that it took me ages to learn how to sleep through again once he stopped waking me up! Far longer than it took him in fact.

With the being sick thing, we've found that ds1 will settle easily once we've been in to check him/clean him up - once he'd learnt to self settle he hasn't lost that skill.

ds2 went a step backward last night, being awake 2.30 to 4am and again 5.45 to 6.15, but he did settle himself eventually after feeding, with only minor whinging so hopefully just a small blip.

magoosmom Sat 17-Nov-12 21:22:00

well I'm definately glad I sorted his sleep out this week cos.......I just got a BFP grin

memememum Sat 17-Nov-12 22:28:31

I have been reading this thread the last couple of nights. Currently hiding under the covers whilst VeryDH tries to help ds get used to staying in cot instead of constant bf. Dh is being v gentle, reassuring, etc but still lots of crying (sad)

magoo Congratulations! thanks smile

chubbymomie2012 Sun 18-Nov-12 08:09:09

I have an almost 9 month old who I posted about a few months ago as he was wakening every hour, i was considering controlled crying but the response was horrific and i was talked into this non crying thing were I brought him back to bed with us (much to my OH disgust i add) DISASTER now yes he sleeps for 3-4 hours at a time but we dont. he lies in awkward positions he thumps kicks allsorts. and hes awake at 0530 for the day and cos im off work i get up then too. I'm sooooooooooooo tired i have aged 10 years in the last 6 months and im toonwrecked to do anything with the other 3 kids. please help. i'm going to start controlled crying tonight. I need to do something. can u tell me how to start or give me tips. The room he is in is one he shares with his older brother who is 2. please help.......

Hi chubby - I notice you've posted this on the main sleep board as well. Be prepared for that getting nasty as well! Touch wood, the anti-CC brigade seem to be leaving us alone here.

A two year old in the same there anywhere else he/she could go while you do the CC, just for a few nights? I think you'd have a struggle with the two of them in there.

If you read through the previous posts you can see how others have done CC, and MN also have a good advice section on sleep training here.

Sorry meme - didn't mean to ignore you there. thanks Hope everything's going OK for you. How did things turn out?

beyoglu Sun 18-Nov-12 12:33:12

Chubby, we got the Millpond sleep clinic book and it says for controlled crying basically:
- have a bedtime routine that's about half an hour long, not more than 45 minutes, and includes a bath. Keep it calm and quiet etc, and have the last feed of the night "downstairs" - you know, not in the bedroom.
- put the baby down to sleep and go out of the room. Start your stopwatch.
- if they are still crying after 5 minutes, go back in, check on them and say something like "OK darling, time to sleep." Try not to touch them, and don't wait until they stop crying, just say your piece and go.
- if they are still going repeat 10 minutes later, and then 15 minutes after that, and then every 15 minutes so if you put them down at 7 and they keep crying you would go in at 7.05, 7.15 (10 mins after the first visit), 7.30, 7.45, 8pm etc
- be prepared that on the first few nights they might cry for longer than an hour. If you "break" and pick them up after you've left them crying for an hour, they'll learn that they need to cry for an hour to get you to pick them up. So if you don't think you can last it out don't do it!

We did it with our 6m twins a couple of weeks ago and their sleep improved dramatically in one night. It was amazing.

Having said that, now I have a question for everyone else...

I am trying to iron out a sleep problem with one of my girls. OK so I have 6m twin girls, we started CC with them a couple of weeks ago for naps and nighttime and now they go down to sleep within a couple of minutes and with a couple of exceptions which I'll outline, they sleep through from 7.30 till 7am. They're FF and on solids 3 times a day.

OK so - we wake both of them to give them a bottle at 11pm, then they go back to sleep. DT1 sleeps right through but DT2 wakes at about 4.30 or 5, moans/cries for about 20 minutes and then goes back to sleep. We do the CC thing of going back in to check on her at 5 mins, then 10 mins later etc. We've also tried giving her water (not interested), checked her nappy (empty), calpol at 11 in case it's teething pain, none of them has worked.

Any ideas?

chubbymomie2012 Sun 18-Nov-12 20:06:13

hey peeps,
thanks so so much for all your advice, you were right the independant thread I posted regardinga Controlled Crying prompted a private mail from a person who thinks im damaging the baby and should be reported to social services.....
Anyway i have started controlled crying and after about 40 mins he is asleep. now I just need to try to hold my nerve and do it all when he wakes thru the night.
I have temp moved his big bro out untill this has all been done. thanks for the help I may need more before morning :-)


I cannot believe you got PMed with that. Absolutely awful - report it to MNHQ! That is disgusting.

I couldn't help but put my oar in to the latest CC bunfight over on another board and I'll say it again here - if someone decides to either not breastfeed or stop breastfeeding because they don't feel they can cope with the commitment involved, they get nothing but support on here e.g. 'you have to do what's best for you and your family', 'happy mummy, happy baby', 'never mind it's not that big in the scheme of things'. If someone decides to sleep train because they don't feel they can cope with the horrible exhaustion anymore, they get borderline (or actual) abuse. I really don't see the difference, and I just don't get it.

PropositionJoe Sun 18-Nov-12 20:24:37

All of this - CC, PUPD, cry it out, gradual withdrawal - is just names for teaching your baby to self settle. It is essential that they learn this, and that they get enough sleep as babies and as children. Everything else hinges on it - health, education, behaviour. I have no doubt AT ALL in my mind that you are doing the right thing.

AnyaKnowIt Sun 18-Nov-12 21:13:58

Cubbymomie - how is it going?

Congrats magmoo thanks

discombobwotsit Sun 18-Nov-12 21:58:13

congrats magoo smile

chubbymomie sorry to hear you had such a nasty message.

How cowardly is someone who would pm another poster, surely the whole point is to post your views openly for discussion? And anyway, they are wrong, as none of the studies found any lasting effects of cc/sleep training carried out by caring parents in a loving environment.

I think people also need to consider what is more detrimental for baby - long term sleep deprivation in both baby + mum (and/or dad) OR a few tears for a few nights (and in most cases it is only a few). I can state with absolute certainty that sleep deprivation was rapidly pushing me towards pnd, as well as being completely unsafe to drive!

Good luck to everyone currently going through this, hope it works quickly for you

<watches ds2 sleeping peacefully, having fallen asleep again without a sound for the third night in a row, after just 3 nights of training>

rhetorician Sun 18-Nov-12 22:17:54

reading with interest: dd2 is almost a year; she has never slept through. A good night would involve 3 wake-ups - 8ish, 11ish and about 3. We have had's not been helped by numerous colds/ear infections, and she has also as a consequence ended up in our bed after the 11 wake-up. We are steeling ourselves to do CC.

chubbymomie2012 Mon 19-Nov-12 02:05:17

hey peeps,
so far so good. the wee man has just woken for the first time. i did give him a dream feed at 11 so. i know he isnt hungrey. hes been cryung sort of on and off for 10 mins butbid say it wont last much longer. Rhetorician now is def the time to do cc. i am so knackered i have the will and determination to stick to it good luck. &#128515;

GirlWithTheMouseyHair Mon 19-Nov-12 02:53:12

rhetorician was about to post almost exactly the same as you - DD is 1 next week so I think older than most babies on this thread

I've tried CC with her twice (at 7 and 9 months) and ended it after 3 nights of steadily worse hsyterics from both of us, deciding neither of us were ready. She's now totally nightweaned and appears to wake for no apparent reason, cue 2+hours at least trying to get her back to sleep - I'm ready to try CC again but worry she might be one of those very few babies who just can't handle it.

Used it succesfully on DS at 10mo so I'm def not in the anti-camp, just wondering if everyone's trying it for the first time or are coming back to it having tried unsuccessfully in the past when their babies were younger?

magoosmom Mon 19-Nov-12 05:12:58

girl we tried it at 7 months and gave up. Worked really fast this time at 14 months, he had been waking 6-8 a nights and waking any time from 5am,was a nightmare sad since last Mon night he*s slept 12 hours in his own cot, waking maybe once or twice for 5 mins, it is hard I hate hearing him cry sad but feel I've no option.

GirlWithTheMouseyHair Mon 19-Nov-12 06:15:36

What made you decide to try again magoo? I'm too tired to contemplate long term slow solutions, but last time we tried (at 9mo) I had days afterwards where she was really clingy and her naps have been shit since sad

chubbymomie2012 Mon 19-Nov-12 07:11:58

im nearly afraid to see last night was a good night. He woke that one time at 0130 cried about 45 mins then zonked and didnt waken again until 0655. Im shocked as normally he wakens approx 5-7 times a night and sinks 2 9oz bottles. last night the only milk he got was a dream feed so i knew he wasnt hungrey. looking forward to nap time to see how that goes. did u ladies do cc at nap time too?

Girl, i did controlled crying 9 years ago with my daughter who is now 10 and it worked beautifully although she wasnt as "determined" as this wee man. &#128570;

beyoglu Mon 19-Nov-12 07:23:04

You guys should come over to the multiples threads! There's a lot more tolerance for CC over there... and anything else that helps you get through the day/night!

So last night I caved with DT2, having tried everything else for the 4/5am wake I made her a bottle. She fell on it like a starving woman and then went straight back to sleep. I don't know how impressed that my over 6-month baby, who is now above average weight, is waking for a 4am bottle, but since she sleeps so well for the rest of the night I'm going to assume she needs it and go with it. DH was a bit, hrm, what if she gets used to a night feed again? But we weaned her off the 3am feed a couple of weeks ago just by reducing it each night by 15ml - we can do that again in a few weeks I think.

girl we're first-timers so no advice, good luck though!
chubby congrats! I'm so glad it's working.

discombobwotsit Mon 19-Nov-12 07:43:04

girlwith the science of mom blog that I linked to upthread says that cc is less likely to be successful between around 8 and 11 months so it may be that your dd was within that developmental period when you last tried.

And when I did 'spaced soothing' with ds1, he definitely escalated the crying by day 4 but cracked it on day 5 - he is stubborn like his dad so I'm not surprised that it took him a little longer!

So might be worth another try now?

magoosmom Mon 19-Nov-12 12:13:17

Hi girl we did it again because he wasn't get half enough sleep and was cross and cranky. He is 14 months old and has been running around for the last 3 months so really needs his sleep.He doesn't nap well-does one 45min nap in the middle of the day, sometimes only 20mins so he really needs his sleep at night time. Last night he went to sleep at 6.30pm and I had to wake him at 7.30am ! he woke twice briefly at 4.45am and 5.45am, we're delighted, it was really taking its toll on us. Im still upset when he cries and I hate thinking of him alone and crying but there's no other solution, we've given him 14 months to get into the swing of things himself but the we had to intervene and 'train' him. When I woke him this morning he smiled at me smile usually he used to be cross and tired in the morning. The only thing I don't like is that when he knows he's going tp bed ie the last programme he watches before bed comes on he gets upset and clings to me and climbs into my lap, cries all the way up the stairs, then roars as I put him in the cot, he stops within a minute of me leaving the room but I hate it sad maybe he'll stop doing it in a few weeks when he's into the swing of it.

chubbymomie2012 Tue 20-Nov-12 01:58:21

help ladies i need more advice. the wee man is on his second night of trainig and did well tonight going to sleep in 20 minutes. however hes awake now since Ten past one (40 mins) and hes not crying but trying to climb out of his cot and generally just being mischevious. im carrying on the routine of putting him flat saying go big sleeps and leaving but he is laughing now and thinks itsnamgame. any advice?

CordeliaChase Tue 20-Nov-12 02:27:41

I did CC on my DS. He is a happy, smiley two year old now who is happy to go to bed (to the point where he will go and get in bed when he's tired!). It took 3 nights of CC to get him to sleep at bedtime without aid of a bottle. After that (bar one regression) he's been a good sleeper. Before that, he wasn't aware he could self soothe and was miserable. When he started sleeping better, he woke up in a better, bouncier mood. He was about 5mo when I started CC, and about 3mo when we started a gentle routine. It doesn't do them any harm, so long as you don't leave them screaming. You need to know they are fed, clean, winded and safe. That's it.

CordeliaChase Tue 20-Nov-12 02:29:00

Chubbiemomie, just don't make eye contact and don't speak. Swiftly and firmly put him back down. Unless he can't physically get out or get hurt, in that case I would leave him. How old is he?

beyoglu Tue 20-Nov-12 06:46:42

chubby I've no advice as mine are much smaller than that, but I've got to say, at least he sounds like he's happy enough in his cot! Hope it went well...

well after making the big decision the night before last to cave and give DT2 a bottle at 4am, tonight she slept right through. Did beyoglu sleep through? Oh nonononono. I woke at 4 full of anticipation for the crying to start, went downstairs to make a bottle, left it at their door and went back to bed to lie awake waiting for her to wake. I fell into a really rubbish sleep and woke again at 5 with my heart racing. Is she awake yet? Now? What about now? Well it's quarter to seven and she's still asleep. Bloody weans smile

chubbymomie2012 Tue 20-Nov-12 06:47:29

hi cordelia he is 8months almost nine months.

CordeliaChase Tue 20-Nov-12 16:58:11

I would just leave him to it. He's doing it to get you in the room to play. If he's safe and he can't get out he's fine. Have you got your cot set to the lowest setting? X

AnyaKnowIt Tue 20-Nov-12 18:31:40

chubby - I would leave him too it, remove cot bumpers and lower the cot so he won't be able to get out.

Well DS woke up every single hour between 7pm and 7am last night and I absolutely can't cope with it anymore. Sitting here in the dark with a hand on him while he cries and cries in his cot sad He's not hungry, he's clean, he's not in pain...

chubbymomie2012 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:31:02

Elphaba i'm feeling for you. just try for another 24 hours. see what happens then. what else can you try?

AnyaKnowIt Tue 20-Nov-12 20:35:11

Elphaba - Is this the first night?

Screamed for 55 mins, slept for an hour, now has been screaming for 20 mins. WHY does this child fight sleep so?? I just don't get it!! He doesn't settle at all with verbal reassurance/patting so CC would just be like CIO with us walking randomly in and out of the room, hence I'm camping out at cot side.

Anya It's the first night of this round. We've done this before but a cold just made the wheels fall off completely and his sleep went even worse than it ever had been before (see my rant from a few days ago on the sordid history of his awful, awful sleep). He's still in our room so I want to at least get him settling more easily and sleeping for longer periods before he goes into his own room.

chubby I've tried PUPD, pat shh and every gentle strategy Dr Sears has to offer. From the time he was 2 weeks old, he's had a bedtime routine, I tried putting him down sleepy but awake from the time he was tiny, I make sure he doesn't go too long between his (ludicrously short) naps so he doesn't get overtired. I've also tried co-sleeping, massage, we've had two sessions of cranial osteopathy (sleep's got worse if anything), he's had his tongue tie snipped to see if that makes a difference and I've had a doctor check him from top to bottom to see if there is anything medical causing him to be such an awful sleeper. This is why I get so het up at the anti-CC lot who always seem to work from the assumption that alternatives haven't been sought. I think I've officially exhausted the alternatives and if I wait and see if he 'sorts himself out in the end' he'll be without a mother. She'll be in her box under a tombstone which reads, 'At least she finally got some shut-eye.'

I worked it out, you know - he never gave me morning sickness, so I get a non-sleeper instead.

He's stopped again, thank god. Please, please let me have just a few hours before he starts again...?

AnyaKnowIt Tue 20-Nov-12 21:53:32

I had morning sickness and a crap sleeper wink

CC is like CIO but you do go back into them, its shows them that you do come back and haven't got out of sight forever.

Hope you do get some sleep, its a killer!

rhetorician Tue 20-Nov-12 22:19:44

elphaba I hope you get through it and this works out for you - you sound utterly fed up.

Can I sound you out on a few things? thinking of doing cc at the weekend. DD2 is nearly 1, so more than old enough. She currently wakes about 40 mins after going to bed, then about 2 hours after that; then, if we are lucky will stay asleep until about 2, then til about 5. She has a decent nap at around 11am, but only one (wonder if this is a mistake). So she rarely sleeps for longer than about 4 hours. She sleeps in our bed once we go up. Is breastfed.

So, do you think that putting her in cot, in own room, night-weaning and sleep training all in one go is too much? It's just that the other things are props for her now, so not much point in taking away just one of them, IYSWIM. If she is going to be angry/miserable, we may as well just go for it, right? I don't think she is just going to work it out herself...

Do you think one nap is OK? for a while we were putting her down for afternoon, but it was getting harder and harder to get her to go, and then she was tricky to put to bed. Her waking is almost all habitual - except maybe for the late evening one.

Observations welcome!

AnyaKnowIt Tue 20-Nov-12 22:32:38

Its normal for a 1yr old only to have one nap a day.

Can't answer about bf as I was ff by then. I did do the cot, own room, and sleep training at the same time as I did think it was all better to get it over and done with.

rhetorician Tue 20-Nov-12 23:00:46

that's what I think, Anya - sleep consultant we, er, consulted, had a schedule with 2, possibly 3! (this was a couple of months ago). I think we have to night-wean her at the same time as well...

she is a very inquisitive, lively child and I suspect doesn't need massive amounts of sleep, although she does sleep 7-7, but with lots of wake-ups (mostly quite brief...on a good night...)

GirlWithTheMouseyHair Wed 21-Nov-12 02:30:41

I think we'll start next week, breaking her in gently by stopping sleeping in our bed then comforting her in her cot then next week we can move into a different room , change bedtime routine so she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle and try CC in the night - so watching with support and interest til then

beyoglu Wed 21-Nov-12 06:37:54

Elphaba, I see you've done CC before and so I know my 2p worth is probably surplus to requirements... but when we did CC we did just go out of the room and let them cry, going back in at 5/10/15 min intervals to say our piece, and then we got back out of there even if they were still crying. God I sound so hard writing that. The way I look at it though is if it's harsh but it works quickly, they actually spend less time in total crying, so that's better?

rhetorician, when we did CC on our 6 month old twins we took them out of their swaddling blankets, got rid of their dummies and started night weaning all at the same time (more or less - the swaddling blankets went a couple of nights before). We figured that if we basically weren't going to touch them all night then we'd better get rid of everything that needed maintenance in the night (by that time they were getting out of their swaddles).

Alfiepants Wed 21-Nov-12 07:42:39

Just wanted to say thank you - haven't posted here before but spent from midnight to 3am reading these posts as we embarked on first cc with our 8 month old who has been an awful sleeper from day 1. Finally went to sleep at 3am and woke at 7.20. He couldn't even be bothered to drink 1 oz!!!! Hunger indeed!!!! I'm sure we'll have more of the same tonight but I'm committed now and can't wait for this to finally work. smile

beyo and Anya I know you're meant to go in and out with CC and then just leave them alone completely with CIO. I'm not comfortable doing CIO myself. The reason I'm not doing the in and out proper CC thing is 1) he's still in our room which makes it a bit difficult and 2) he screams unabated whether I settle him or not so I figure I may as well stay with him so at least I know he doesn't think he's been abandoned.

That said, last night was abso-fucking-lutely awful, although we did get a couple of stretches of sleep longer than we've had for quite some time - just interspersed with two hour blocks of screaming sad It's unbearable, but not as unbearable as the sick, sleepless, inescapable, incompetent haze I've been mired in for three months. I'm going to ask the inlaws to help me move his cot into his own room tomorrow and I think I'll start proper CC then to see if it makes any difference.

beyoglu Wed 21-Nov-12 10:06:07

elphaba, best of luck for tonight - I think that having him in his own room is key because your presence will be stimulating him to stay awake. So hopefully you'll start to turn a corner. I really keep everything crossed for you!

AnyaKnowIt Wed 21-Nov-12 12:13:53

All the best for tonight, elphaba. I'm just thinking that if you stay with him then he won't be able to settle without you there iyswim? Saying that I'm no expert and you do know him best. ((hugs)) it is hard but it will be worth it in the end smile

Alfiepants Wed 21-Nov-12 23:00:08

Good luck for tonight. About to do dream feed and then gird myself for night ahead... Can't worse than night 1 can it ?????

We had a slightly better night last night. His cot's being moved today so it was still in with me last night but I took a bit of a CC sensibility about it - I didn't sit there with a hand on him, but gave him a quick kiss and a pat/shh at 1/3/5 mins then every 10 mins. Crying was definitely a creaky moan rather than a scream and never lasted longer than 20 minutes, usually a lot less. He's also now waking every two hours rather than hourly, and it's amazing how much better I feel from longer stretches of sleep!

Two WWYD questions, though:

Firstly, he saves his loudest, longest wailing for 4am or after. This morning it was 5:45. At what point would you decide to discontinue CC and get up for the day?

Secondly, he STILL has a very lingering cough. I'm not worried as I've got it too and it's bloody irritating especially at night. I'm having to take pretty frequent sips of water through the night to control it. I'm sure most of his night wakings for feeding are habitual, not hunger, so I'd like to get him down to only one or two feeds a night. But if someone withheld my water at night at the moment I'd be pretty cross. Should I carry on with two-hourly night feeds for now while this fucking interminable cough persists, or start using CC to reduce the wakings? He's not usually waking up coughing, but it starts to go that way once he starts moaning.


Third question, sorry. Do you do CC for naps too, or just get naps into them any way you can during the day to optimise the night? I've been trying CC with his first nap of the day for an hour and a quarter now and he's still screaming. We've got to go out in 15 minutes and now he'll be cranky and tired, and probably scream more, the whole time we're out! confused

beyoglu Thu 22-Nov-12 18:45:25

Hey Elphaba,

I keep trying with the CC if the girls wake up before 6 (they usually get up at 7). I've read that the last hour or so of night sleep is really deep so I always reckon if they get back to sleep I'll luck out and be able to eat breakfast in peace it's good for them to get it. If they do get up before 7 I adjust the start of nap times so that they gradually get back on schedule e.g. this morning they got up at 6.40 so I put them down for the early morning nap at 8.50, not 9...

On the cough I would first decide when to feed him in the night and then stick to that and do CC for other wakenings, but give him water once he starts coughing.

On the naps I do CC for naps in their cot. When we're out with the buggy or the car they tend to sleep at their nap times without any moaning so I don't need to do anything. When we were starting CC I used to take them out in the buggy for the afternoon nap so that they would get one trouble free nap - if there's a way he sleeps with no intervention like that, like if he likes the car seat or whatever, it might be worth just using that for a couple of days to make sure he's well rested in the day because that will make the nighttime CC easier.

Also, and I know I'm coming over like SWMNBN now, but I wouldn't touch him at all when you go in at 1/3/5 mins etc. With my difficult one, touching her makes her worse, and I only ever touch her at those check times if she's managed to wedge herself sideways in the cot or something. (With my easy one, doesn't matter at all, but then she had a 2 hour nap in her cot yeasterday afternoon and I went up at 2h 10 mins when it was still silent and she was wide awake and playing with her binky! On the other hand we were on a day out today and she slept about 30 minutes for each nap so go figure... )

Thanks beyoglu

I find naps really, really hard. I ended up just giving up and going out this morning and he ended up having a nap on my lap while we were out. Napping on my lap after a feed is really the only consistently easy way I can get him to nap, although I can occasionally transfer him into his pram if heavily enough asleep. Out in the pram is another fairly reliable method if you catch him at the right time, but did you see the weather today?! He's so resistant to sleeping, especially during the day, that I'm worried that CC for naps just wakes him up more. He screamed for 1.5 hours this morning with no sign of let-up and he was a grump for the rest of the day then had to go to bed almost an hour earlier this evening. Apart from being horrible to put him through I'm not as confident that it's going to work for daytime naps...will it?

Those baby dolls they sell are a con. You know, those ones that you just make horizontal and their eyes close? Babies don't work that way. I feel duped.

beyoglu Thu 22-Nov-12 20:04:50

Hey Elphaba,

my feeling is that if he's in his cot, day or night, then you need to use CC or else he'll get confused, but if he's napping outside his cot then any means necessary, because you want him to be as well rested as poss through the day to make it easier at night. So maybe just don't try napping in the cot yet?

I did CC for naps and night sleeps starting at the same time but our issues were different. My two were always happy to nap in their cots but only if I swaddled them and gently shook them till they fell asleep - same as at night - and they would wake after 45 minutes. So for us it was clearer that we needed to do CC for daytime naps as well, and it was also less of a change for them, it was just the way of getting to sleep that was changing.

I know what you mean about those baby dolls. Apparently I was like that - I slept through the night before my mum was discharged from hospital! Pity neither of my offspring inherited that from me... they were little and early though so not their fault I suppose smile

Mine was huge and bang on time, so I don't know what his excuse is!

Zero progress whatsoever after moving the cot into his own room. No reduction in length of crying time, no lengthening of sleep blocks. We're (well, I'm) doing proper CC now, leaving the room. He's been going for over an hour now, with possibly a 10 minute sleep somewhere in there, and I can say with reasonable confidence he'll probably carry on until 6am. Been awake every 1-2 hours since 6pm.

I really have no idea what to do next. sad

beyoglu Fri 23-Nov-12 07:01:09

Elphaba they do say it usually takes a couple of days and gets worse before it gets better - I wouldn't have expected it to get better tonight when he's alone for the first time but now he's doing the thing, learning to sleep alone. It's not easy but now he's in his own room he's at least facing the real challenge ahead of him IYSWIM.

I'm trying to think what else there is you could do to make it go better. He's probably well overtired by now. Could you for a few days just plan to do everything to let him nap, like wander the streets with the buggy or hold him whenever he looks tired, whatever works? If he's less wrecked at bedtime he should go down easier.
I read a bit of your back posts - your wee one's 6 months, about the same age as mine. How often does he nap in the day? Marc Weissbluth (my sleep guru of choice) reckons they should be taking at least 2, possibly 3 naps a day at this point - if they get up at 7 then one at 9, one at 1 and one at about 4 (the last one is a bit of a catnap by this time and some kids skip it). Total nap time should be about 3-4 hours a day.

Have you got a bedtime routine going on? I don't think it has to be anything fancy but just a quiet bath and a play with some soft toys or something for about half an hour before he goes in for bed.

I don't know if this would be anything but we booked a consultation with the Millpond Sleep Clinic - it's about £200-£300 (I think it was more expensive for us because we have twins) and they make you do a diary for a week, then they put together a sleep plan for you and they sort of hold your hand through it for 6 weeks. (We got as far as doing the diary but we also got a copy of their book and with the diary and the book it was so clear what we needed to change that we cancelled the appt). They get good reviews here on Mumsnet. It might be something as a last resort?

If you like, if you post or PM me your routine I could have a read through and see if there's anything that sticks out? Not that I'm any sort of an expert at all, but sometimes a second pair of eyes is helpful?

We've had a bedtime routine in place since he was about 2 weeks old. I do everything I can to get him napping within two hours of every waking. Since he almost never naps longer than 30 mins, unless it's on me, which might extend it to an hour, I get three to four naps in a day this way.

I just feel so demoralised because everyone else on here had a pretty noticeable change pretty quickly (and they've all been pretty quiet of late so they're all probably sleeping away merrily). I'm also feeling desperate because I hate letting him cry to try and sort this out, but the alternative is him waking hourly which is even more unbearable.

I've already got Millpond or Andrea Grace at the back of my mind in case we have ongoing problems. I've read the Millpond book but it hasn't really provided any new solutions, unfortunately.

I suppose I can only keep trying...

houmousandcarrotsandwich Fri 23-Nov-12 16:10:25

Can I join?
DD is 6 months has never slept through & just seems to be getting worse. I don't know how much longer I cam cope on such little sleep. Also have a 2 year old, so don't get much rest in the day either. DS slept through from 8 weeks so DD is abit of a culture shock!

She always goes down well but wakes regularly (about every 3 hours although can be less, occasionally 4 hours). I think I have gotten in the habit of comfort feeding to get her back off (because it worked), but now it's starting to loose it's efficiency. It usually gets to about 3/4 am when I ve had enough & she comes into our bed for comfort feed (if only so I can lie down)

So I think it's time to CC. She started some cranial osteopathy yesterday and I'm not sure if to wait for her to have few sessions to sort out her probs before starting CC?

Also a few tips on how you keep yourself sane while they are screaming blue murder between going into them?
I'm thinking a timer might be a good idea to stop me going in earlier?

ANY TIPS & ADVISE WELCOME (positive only, I can provide enough negative ta!)

Alicethroughthewineglass Fri 23-Nov-12 16:56:32

Elphaba - I've been reading this thread with interest as we are in the same position as you and I don't know what to do next.

We have even consulted Andrea Grace and the only progress we have made is that DD is in her own room. She still wakes 6+ times a night and wants me to breast feed her back to sleep. DD is almost 7 months and we have spent 8 weeks doing gradual withdrawal in her room, getting no further than the end of her cot. All we have is hours of absolute hysterics. Even prior to starting gradual withdrawal I was spending HOURS every evening upstairs trying to get her to sleep from about 2 weeks old.

Since birth she has fought sleep, and even the day she was born she didn't zonk out in that post-birth long sleep newborns are supposed to do! I think my problems started when I tried to force an early bedtime on her before she was ready, resulting in me creating the habit of feeding her to sleep.

We have ended up co-sleeping to get through this very busy week, but I am resolved to start again on Sunday when things have calmed down. I am going to start the gradual withdrawal again and then possibly cc after a few days. Andrea suggested this route, but the last time we tried CC all the progress we had made went out of the window. DD did not give in easily and reacted much the same as your DS. She also became very clingy during the day. CC goes against my natural instinct and I will hate every minute. I will try it again though as I am getting so desperate and want to enjoy the short time I have left of maternity leave.

One thing you may be interested in is that Andrea told me to concentrate on night time sleep and use any means necessary to get DD to nap. After night time settling improved I was to start on the morning nap as this is the easiest to settle a baby for. This did have some success. I think Andrea's methods have been very successful for lots of babies but she met her match with my DD!

The very best of luck for tonight.

That's great about the day time naps, Alice - thanks! One less thing to feel sick about trying to tackle.

Thankfully, despite a horror night last night, DS was extremely jovial today which made me feel a bit better. He even ate something enthusiastically at nursery which is a first, and another issue which has been preying on my mind.

Hi there houmus. As you can see I'm not winning (yet) with CC so I'm not loaded with sage wisdom. There's a lot of posts here which might give you ideas/encouragement.

Here we go again, then. Night all...

PS houmous My DS has had 2 sessions of cranial osteo in the past fortnight - no effect whatsoever. We've got another one next week but I couldn't face waiting on the sleep training any longer as I'm about to crack!

teacher123 Fri 23-Nov-12 19:47:22

With regards to naps the only way I could get DS to nap for 4 1/2 months was to either walk him in the buggy or drive him round in the car. I was beyond exhausted as he was still waking 4 or 5 times in the night. To try and tackle this I used Gina Ford as a guide for when DS should be napping, and started taking a walk or a drive at those times everyday. Gradually he started to get used to sleeping at those times. I then read the Tizzie Hall book (as you can see I read two controversial books about baby training!) which basically tells you to put them in bed and leave them to it unless they become hysterical. We started this at bedtime, with mixed results, some days he'd settle in minutes, some days longer. Once he'd learnt to settle himself reasonably reliably I then transferred his naps to the cot, with a mini bedtime routine. So at nap time he has nappy change, white noise on, grobag on, kiss and leave him to it. I go back in if he starts to cry, if he's just whinging, I leave him to it. He is 7 months and normally has a nap at around 9.30 and around 1pm. His bedtime is 6pm. I make sure he still has naps in the car so he doesn't forget how to! Elphaba it sounds like you're at your wits end, I really hope it improves soon.

beyoglu Sat 24-Nov-12 07:06:06

Hi houmous, I've got 6 month twins who've just been through CC. They sleep from about 7.30 till 7.30, with a feed at 11 for both and sometimes a feed at 3 for DT2.

Just my 2p worth - if your DD is sleeping 3-4 hours between feeds that means she can self settle (their sleep cycles after 4 months are about an hour and a half long for night sleep, they wake slightly between sleep cycles, so she's self-settling at least sometimes). So CC might not make much improvement, as it's supposed to teach them to go off/go back to sleep on their own.

What about weaning her off the feeds, or at least the 3am feed? The Millpond book recommends gradually shortening the time you let them feed for, just by a couple of minutes each night. We did that with DT1 - our girls are bottle fed so we reduced the amount in the nighttime bottle by 15ml each night. When we got down to 30ml, DT1 slept right through the usual 3am wakeup time. While we were doing the weaning she started to increase what she drinks/eats during the day. (DT2 was harder - dropped the 3am bottle as soon as she started solids but often still wants it if she's not eaten much during the day).

houmousandcarrotsandwich Sat 24-Nov-12 10:05:47

Ok so night one went really well (to my surprise!). DD woke at first woke at 10 & I was prepared for 2 hours of CC, within 20 mins she was asleep! Couldn't believe it. Then she woke at 3 (an amazing 5 hours later) & took 45 mins of CC. Again I thought this was pretty good. But the ABSOLUTELY STUNNING part was that I had to wake her up at 8am as she was still snoring!
Was last night too good to be true? How have others found night 2, 3 so on? Do they improve or do they go up & down abit?
I really think the cranial osteopathy has helped. She's much calmer in general. Spoke to osteopath yesterday if I should start CC or wait. He said if I feel she's calmer then to give it a go.
Hope others had a good night too x

houmousandcarrotsandwich Sat 24-Nov-12 10:06:18

Ps. No feeds either!

rhetorician Sat 24-Nov-12 22:57:04

think we are going to go for it tomorrow - crappy constant pointless waking and can't see an end to it. So can someone go over the method again?

go in every 5 mins x 3
every 10 mins x 3
every 15 x 3
? that kind of thing. ANd when we go in just appear, say something reassuring/firm and retreat again, not attempt to calm her down? I get the broad outlines, but feel that I need chapter and verse if I am going to stick to it. Thanks

Drop the 'x 3' bit. In after 5 mins, then after 10 mins, then every 15 minutes thereafter.

Not that it's working a blind jot here. Still awake every 2 hours (at the longest) and I'm sitting here listening to him shouting for the third time tonight. Been going about 30 minutes this round so far...

houmousandcarrotsandwich Sun 25-Nov-12 11:41:56

This is what we are doing,
Baby cries, leave for 5 mins (have read between 2 -10 mins, but on here most seem to go for 5)
Go in, brief visual check all is well (no eye contact), shh for 1 minute, leave the room.
Repeat 10 mins later & 15 mins later. Continue at 15 mins until you reach 1 hour, then increase to 30 mins between shh's.
When I leave I turn off the monitor (cos I can hear the screams without the amplifier!), go down stairs & occupy myself with facebook, mumsnet etc whilst keeping an eye on the time.

We have just finished night 2, and it's going ok. DD woke twice last night, and I actually think I'm getting more sleep because I'm not spending ages trying to feed & settle her.
Both mornings so far I have had to wake her at the start of the day, which is massive progress for us.

I read in a book if you stick to the rules, it should work within 2 weeks. So I have put a big star on the calendar for when we should all get a good nights sleep as a goal to keep me motivated.

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