We met Andrea Grace - here is the aftermath

(162 Posts)
lucidlady Mon 27-Aug-12 15:34:39

I've posted several times about my 10 month old DD's appalling night time sleep habits. She woke up roughly every 90 minutes during the night and the only way I could get her back to sleep would be to feed her. She also used to end up in our bed every night as well, and I would then be wide awake from about 3am onwards. I'm back at work FT and the sleep deprivation has been absolute murder.

In desperation, I have read just about every sleep book there is on the market. Controlled crying is not an approach that I am comfortable with, I just cannot stand leaving DD to cry hysterically. It makes my boobs ache and my heart weep. Yes I am a wimp.

Andrea Grace is one of the only books I've read that doesn't immediately promote controlled crying as the only solution. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution but I have the attention span of a sleep deprived gnat, and I couldn't seem to figure out what I actually had to do. After one particularly awful night where DD screamed from 1am - 5am I announced to DH that I was going to go and see Andrea Grace.

She asks you to keep a sleep diary and send this to her before the appointment. I have been tracking DD's sleep since she was days old so I was able to send her way too much sleep data. DD and I went to see her last week, and in a nutshell, this is what she told us to do:

1. Re-affirm the bedtime routine.
2. Cut the nighttime breastfeeds.
3. Do not take DD out of her cot into our bed.

All sounds great doesn't it? I was more interested in HOW exactly she thought I would achieve this. She said that I should push the bedtime routine back - I was giving the bath far too early. Also, I was to stop DD falling asleep on the boob. Andrea suggested waking her up to read her a story if this happened - the same story needs to be read every night. And then once DD has had her milk and her story, put the light out, say sleepy time (or similar) and pop her in the cot. Once this happens, I am to sit near DD, cuddling and stroking while she is in the cot is allowed but I cannot take her out of the cot again unless she is sick etc. If she wakes in the night, I am to cuddle or stroke her but not lift her out.

Night 1: DD took an hour to settle down to sleep at 8pm. Woke 45 mins later, just needed a quick pat and went back over. Woke again at 1.30am, took an hour to settle back to sleep then slept til 6.40am.

Night 2: Took 22 mins to settle down at 8pm, slept til 2.30am. 20 mins to go to sleep then slept til 3.38am. More or less awake and screaming until 5.09am then slept until woken up at 8.35am.

Night 3 (also known as the worst night of my life): Took an hour to settle from 7.45pm. Woke up at 10.10pm, back over at 10.25 and slept til 2.05am. Absolute hysterics. Back down at 3.10 then awake every hour from 4am onwards for up to 15 mins.

Night 4: An hour to settle from 8pm. Slept until 2am. Back over at 2.07am and then slept until 6.45am...

No doubt I have now jinxed everything but I am feeling much more positive today. I'll update again in a few days.

kleeen Mon 27-Aug-12 17:10:33

wow. thank you for posting this. I am going to be in your EXACT position with our 10mo DS, as I go back to work next week. We previously were somewhat successful at cutting down the nighttime feeds (which required some crying) but we just moved internationally, and LO has been clingy and fussy due to do much upheaval...I admittedly have been feeding on demand all night long lately, just to give him some comfort and stability. However, it has led to 8-10 very quick feeds throughout the night! This definitely can't sustain!

Please keep posting your progress, no matter how positive or negative it is. I think having a realistic expectation for getting DS off the boob and into his cot will be so so helpful! Good luck to you and keep up the good work. I think we all reach the limit at different times, and need to decide the best path for our own families. I will be closely following yours!

babyrose Mon 27-Aug-12 19:18:00

My lo is now 2.3 years and we cut out the night feeds at 9 months. We started off by offering watered down milk every few nights then in the end offered water. He didnt like it but once u set ure mind on doing just keep settling her she will get the msg.

Hth

lucidlady Mon 27-Aug-12 19:25:20

Well it's just taken her 36 minutes of throwing herself around the cot but she's fast asleep yay! We've gone cold turkey on the night feeds, she hasn't had one since last Thursday and seems to be coping ok. She has a massive feed when she wakes up in the morning - I've been told I'm not allowed to feed her unless I am waking her up for the day, so I've got to open the curtains and say good morning! Then she can have some milk. Otherwise I'm giving her the impression that she's still allowed night feeds. It seems a bit of a faff but touch wood it's working. Andrea is lovely too - I have my first follow up call to discuss progress tomorrow.

TheCrackFox Mon 27-Aug-12 19:30:57

Well done. My DS1 thought sleep was for wimps - he nearly broke me. Fingers crossed you have an even better night tonight.

bigkidsdidit Mon 27-Aug-12 19:34:05

I went to Andrea too when DS was 6mo and I was collapsing win tiredness. Sknce we finished our moth with her DS has slept through EVERY NIGHT shock he is now 19mo

Just do what she says and it'll all be great smile

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Mon 27-Aug-12 19:41:39

I did something very similar when DD was 9 mo. She had slept through 8 til 8 about 3 times before that so I knew she could go through the night without a bf and it had got to the poinnt where, instead of putting her to sleep, feeding just seemed to wake her up.
So, I put her in the cot and patted her bum while going "shhhh". She cried and screamed and tried to stand up but i perservered as i figured it wasn't the same as CIO if I was right there shhing and patting her. After 20 mins she went to sleep and slept all night! I gradually reduced the patting, to just sitting and then ultimately just putting her in and leaving and she'd not cry or sort of moan for a minute or two.

DuggiWontSleep Tue 28-Aug-12 13:48:44

How was last night?! x

lucidlady Tue 28-Aug-12 16:50:02

duggiwontsleep last night was a bit of a palaver. She went down early, at 715 after 36 mins. Slept until 2335 and then woke up. She wasn't upset, just wanted to chat and play. Took 15 mins to fall asleep and then woke up at 0035 and 0135. 10 mins to go back to sleep each time, again she was just looking for a chat so I studiously MNetted in the darkness! DH then had to wake her up at 7am.

Spoke to Andrea who said we are making good progress, and I now need to get DD used to me not being in the room when she falls asleep. She'll only sleep through once she can truly self settle without me being there. So tonight, I need to start wandering out of the room for a few seconds. This is going to be interesting as DD currently cries if I go out of her line of vision confused.

Thanks everyone for the support - finding this really hard but goodness it is starting to pay dividends already!!

lucidlady Wed 29-Aug-12 06:09:29

I picked DD up from the childminder yesterday and was told she'd had only one nap of 90 minutes, which always means we have an awful night ahead due to overtiredness. She ended up going to sleep at 1915 and slept....until 6am!!! Can't believe it. I did wake up a couple of times thinking, I hope she's ok but as we have an Angelcare monitor I managed to stop myself from rushing in to prod her awake smile

Here's hoping it's not a one-off!! I feel AMAZING today - 8 hours of sleep, total bliss!

JellyMould Wed 29-Aug-12 06:14:47

Fabulous! Congratulations!

TheHeirOfSlytherin Wed 29-Aug-12 06:45:47

Well done, i hope all goes well for you. Ds didn't sleep longer than 2 hours at a time until he was 9 months old so I feel your pain.

Word of warning: pick a book you really like.

I wish I'd thought of that before making "Goodnight Moon" ds's bedtime book. <twitches at the thought of the horrid great green room, with a telephone and open lit fireplace. Who seriously has those things in a toddler's bedroom?>

bigkidsdidit Wed 29-Aug-12 06:48:05

Brilliant!

DuggiWontSleep Wed 29-Aug-12 08:21:35

Fantastic news!

monkeyblonde Wed 29-Aug-12 08:44:30

Hi lucidlady I have been reading your post avidly.

Interested to know from your first post- you mention that you were doing bath time too early. What time was this?

As with most of the people on here, you could be telling our story too!

DuggiWontSleep Wed 29-Aug-12 09:30:09

Hi Lucidlady - would you be able to provide more details re. the plan that Andrea agreed with you? Im keen to try this too but really dont know where to start. Am trying to night wean at present.

Bet you feel like a completely new woman this morning ! x

kleeen Wed 29-Aug-12 09:41:55

What wonderful news! I hope it continues! I downloaded Andreas book, and after having a chat with DH, we have decided to try this starting tonight! He has a hard time listening to DS cry, but then again, he wasn't
the one who fed him back to sleep 9 times last night!!!

I am going back to work next week sometime, so I would love to make some progress by then. I know it will be rough going in the beginning, as DS is very stubborn (like his parents!)

Thanks again for sharing, and please continue to update!

kleeen Wed 29-Aug-12 09:46:35

Lucidlady- how was it when you left the room? Did it make much of a difference in the crying? Did you stay away a full 5 minutes?

bigkidsdidit Wed 29-Aug-12 10:47:28

When I did Andrea's plan I never left DS crying but pottered round the room putting washing away etc, eventually sitting on the floor MNing. When he was fine wih that I just popped him down, kissed goodnight and left. He never cried really as we had built up to it slowly with the shushing etc.

lucidlady Wed 29-Aug-12 13:13:38

Hi everyone

Yes I feel great - I can't remember the last time I had some proper stretches of unbroken sleep. It really is a form of torture...

TheHeir I picked "Is it bedtime Wibbly Pig". It is still a bit of a novelty as I bought it after seeing Andrea - a new book for our new routine! Having said that I am already feeling mildly irritated by this stupid pig that won't go to bed...

Monkeyblonde DD used to get tired around 3 hours after waking from her last nap, so I used to try to get dinner bath and bed done within those 3 hours. So, say she woke up at 4 - well I'd have her in the bath by 6, aiming for a 7pm bedtime. Even when it was obvious that she was staying awake for longer, I kept on doing bath at 6pm because my friend who was following "Shewhoshallnotbenamed" did it, and told me it definitely worked. Andrea put me right on that - this is why the sleep diary is important. You'll probably find that there is a pattern to the time your LO falls asleep. In my case it was usually 8pm, so Andrea said put her in the bath 45 mins before bed, so that you then have 20 - 30 mins to get dressed in PJs, have milk and then the story.

Duggi the plan is very simple and is basically what it says above. The rules are:
1) get a consistent bath & bed routine - bath followed by milk, but don't let DD fall asleep on boob. The story is to make sure she is awake when she goes in the cot - it needs to be the same book every night so that it becomes a bedtime signal.
2) Once she's in the cot - that is IT. You must not lift her out, even if she is absolutely hysterical. She's not crying because she's in pain, she's crying because she's tired and the usual way of going to sleep (ie boob) is not available.
3) You can cuddle and stroke her as much as you like, just don't lift her out Stay beside her until she falls asleep.
4) repeat for nightwakings. Do not lift her out of the cot at any time
5) NO MORE MILK at night. Even if she scratches at your boobs for it (which DD did!! She'd reach through the bars and grab my top to pull me over!)

It took about 4 days for the penny to drop that there was no more milk at night - I give her water if she is thirsty and she takes that quite happily now. I think you have to be absolutely 100% determined you're going to see it through - if you crack, all you've done is teach the baby that if they scream long enough, milk will always follow. The first few nights are the absolute worst. Andrea's book is a really good starting point and she also does Skype consultations for anyone who can't make it to her offices - more info here: http://www.andreagrace.co.uk/index.html

Kleeen I wandered out of the room literally for seconds. The 5 min thing is for controlled crying, which I didn't want to do as I cannot bear to leave DD upset. So Andrea told me to walk out to put the light on in the hall, close another door etc but always walk back in within seconds. You build to longer periods out of the room over the course of the week. I mainly do what bigkids did, potter around and MN while she settles herself down. GOOD LUCK for tonight! Remember - stay strong. Your LO will try every trick in the book to get you to cave in - mine did! smile

kleeen Wed 29-Aug-12 13:54:44

Thanks. Did you notice a difference in LO the next day? Was she clingy? Fussy? or generally the same as always?

DuggiWontSleep Wed 29-Aug-12 14:08:05

Thank you sooooo much for this post Lucid - am determined to get tough and see it through!

lucidlady Wed 29-Aug-12 17:19:10

kleeen she was her usual smiley self the next day - because I stayed with her, I don't think she felt abandoned.

lucidlady Wed 29-Aug-12 17:19:44

Good luck duggi! Let us know how it goes

icravecheese Wed 29-Aug-12 18:53:01

Am reading this with interest - DD3 is 10.5months and a terrible sleeper - every2 hours, only the boob will get her back off.

Our 2nd child was also pretty awful at sleeping & we have the benefit of our HV being a sleep specialist too, and she came out with DD2 to tell us how to sleep train her - seems her methods are totally identical to Andrea Grace and your post has reminded me how we did the above (i.e. not getting DD out of cot, only patting / stroking through bars etc).

Nothing particularly helpful to add to the post, other than thanks for posting - it has now motivated me to get going on the sleep training with DD3, I can't take the sleepness nights anymore, after 3 children in quick succession I don't think i've had a decent nights sleep in over 5 yrs...arghhh!!

Good luck to everyone going through sleep training - I seem to recall night 3 is the worst (well it was with DD2) as they try one last attempt at thwarting your efforts, but stick with it and it should work (unless you have a REALLY stubborn little person!!)

DuggiWontSleep Wed 29-Aug-12 21:05:20

DS went to bed at 7.15-no wakings yet...fingers crossed that night continues like this!

Lucid-do you think its worth going to see Andrea given all the info you've already given us or do u think the info on this thread is enough to see results?

DisorderlyNights Wed 29-Aug-12 21:19:46

Y'know, this all seems like an awful lot of work. I'm sure for some of you it's the only way that suits your family for specific reasons, but others of you may be better considering co-sleeping. Then, they get boob and are content, and you don't have to get out of bed in the night OR give up
evenings to patting their backs as they cry. (And no, it won't mean the child will never sleep in their own bed, mine have all transferred happily to a cot and slept through the night at around the same age as they've started walking.)

drcrab Wed 29-Aug-12 21:33:02

I'm afraid I'm too late for this!! My dd is nearly 2!! And we are still co-sleeping. And she's still on the boob. And I went back to work 1.5 years ago. Help!!! sad

DisorderlyNights Wed 29-Aug-12 21:40:22

Why the sad face about all that though drcrab? Getting a child sleeping through the night isn't a race, or a competency test.

The child and the whole family getting enough sleep is of course crucial, but this can happen in ways other than child asleep
In cot in one room, parents in the other.

drcrab Wed 29-Aug-12 21:47:07

I'm not getting enough sleep for one. Im proud for having fed both kids to 2 years but it's really taken a toll on me in terms of sleep... I feel v sleep deprived. I'm v grouchy. I feel the weight of the world on me (various other issues). Feel the h isn't supporting me in getting child to stop bf etcetc.

I blame it all on sleep. Or lack of.

But how do you do the crying when you have a toddler asleep in the room next door?!

All sleep/baby advice is for having just one...

drcrab Wed 29-Aug-12 21:55:45

Pommed - yes how does one do that!!!

DisorderlyNights Wed 29-Aug-12 21:59:13

Agree pommedechocolat. I did a little sleep
training type stuff with my first, but my time DC2 was born I realised was impossible, and co slept.

Drcrab, it is tough if you're not sleeping enough. Do you have to wake properly for the night feeds, or is your child a wriggler? I only wake lightly at start of each feed in the night, then go straight back to sleep, so co-sleeping suits me.

TheHeirOfSlytherin Wed 29-Aug-12 22:09:20

I would love to co sleep but ds doesn't understand that he actually needs to sleep in our bed, not bounce on it, spend all night looking out the window and handing me the contents of every draw and shelf in the room while I do that "not quite asleep but not quite awake" thing I got so good at when he was a baby.

It's been the same way since he could crawl. He needs a dark, quiet room he can be alone in to get to sleep.

I reserve co sleeping for hotels/caravans now - on holiday next week so should be fun grinhmmconfused

runnervt Wed 29-Aug-12 22:10:21

My older dc don't really wake up even though they're in the next room. I'm not sure if they're particularly heavy sleepers or whether they're just used to crying.
The other night I was in ds1's room and he was asleep in bed when dd started screaming in the next room - he did put his hands over his ears in his sleep so maybe that's the secret! He certainly didn't wake properly as we would definitely have known about that!

We do bits of co sleeping here when it gets bad. Dh in spare room though. Would prefer to co sleep with him rather than raspberry blowing boob obsessed baby tbh.

Devora Wed 29-Aug-12 22:13:10

I used Andrea Grace 6 years ago. She was great.

bigkidsdidit Wed 29-Aug-12 22:16:51

DS never would co sleep, he'd bounce and poke his fingers I my eyes and sing to me

Obviously everyone should do what suits them and their families - there isn't a single solution. This one doesn't involve crying just muttering (or that's the way it was for us) - it is not CIO

And it only took Inthink two weeks for us until DS slept 6-8 hours and a month later he was sleeping 12, with no more interventions, it was just jay sleep bred sleep. In the scheme of things a few weeks is nothing - I reckon if we were co sleeping he would still be waking up now

It worked brilliantly for us and we are all very very happy. If co sleeping makes you all happy, I am glad for you smile

shelley72 Wed 29-Aug-12 22:33:28

I opened this thread thinking it might help with getting dd 2.3 out of our bed painlessly, but it looks as though it still involves allowing them to cry (even with you in the room)? Dd can scream the place down when she chooses, and has done the minute I even think about trying to place her in her own bed. Can't let her do that - would wake her brother and rest of street!

So we are stuck with co sleeping, at least she has mostly stopped the night feeds now - just need to sort out how to stop her fidgeting all night now.
I suppose one day she will sleep in her own bed?!

princelypurpleparrot Wed 29-Aug-12 22:35:33

I am watching this with so much interest as I am desperate for DS2 to sleep for longer. He's 10mo, walking, but still wakes every two hours through the night and will only be fed back to sleep sad. He's still in our room at the moment (in a cot) but I plan to have his room ready next week, and once he's in there I want to do some sleep training.

I hate the idea of CC / CIO but thought I was probably going to have to go in that direction but this sounds much more positive.

Having said that, I do feel a bit bad about the idea of cutting out night feeds altogether as I worry he still needs them (cosleeping does not work for us, I can't settle so sleep less if he's in my bed unfortunately).

OP I hope it keeps working for you smile

memememum Wed 29-Aug-12 22:40:36

Hi Lucid, please could I ask. When you say 'she took 1 hr/22 mins/however long to settle down in her cot' would she be crying during that time and how badly? Thanks.

Devora Wed 29-Aug-12 22:56:27

I really didn't want to do controlled crying, and didn't. Andrea Grace explained to me that there is no way you can wean a baby off her usual getting-to-sleep habits without making her cross. So crying is probably unavoidable. However, if you are sitting with them, how distressed can they get, really? For me this made all the difference: I really didn't want to traumatise my child, but felt ok about her getting grouchy if she could see, hear and feel me.

Andrea told me that controlled crying at this age usually works within 2 days, her method takes 4. My dd was putting herself to sleep and sleeping through by day 3, with actually very little crying on nights 1 and 2. It worked wonderfully well for us.

lucidlady Thu 30-Aug-12 06:34:14

Morning all

duggi how was your night? We had one waking, at 11.30. Bit of water and she went back over - she's still asleep now.

disorderly I tried co-sleeping but it just didn't work for us. DD would quite happily have slept with my boob in her mouth all night (and frequently tried to do so). I just didn't sleep properly at all - I was permanently half awake. This way, yes I am getting up but in between I'm getting the deep sleep that I need. It's making such a difference - I was becoming a danger to others trough lack of sleep. I wasn't alert enough for work, for driving etc. I wish I could have made co-sleeping work for us as I do love my baby snuggling into me, but unfortunately it wasn't to be. I have to say ive also seen a change in DD since she started sleeping better - she's even more of a minx, constantly on the go and on the lookout for trouble [proudmummy emoticon].

For those of you asking about the crying, I feel the same about CC/CIO. I've read too much research about the impact on the developing brain and baby's stress levels. I believe there has also been research that shows crying in the presence of a caregiver, who is actively comforting baby, does not lead to the same cortisol issues. On phone so can't link. DD did cry - she was not happy at all to be in the cot on the first 3 nights (forget who mentioned the last ditch attempt on 3rd night but SO TRUE) but since then, she gets in the cot, sings and chats to herself and waves at me. She is very clearly not distressed. As devora and bigkids hae said, she was crying more from anger than distress. That's not to say she spent the whole settling down time crying - it was a mix of crying, shouting, blowing raspberries and giggling. Now, settling down mainly involves singing and blowing raspberries...

lucidlady Thu 30-Aug-12 06:35:23

No idea what to do when theres more than one child mind you confused. There is a section on this in the book I think, but I didn't read it...

tholeon Thu 30-Aug-12 07:14:07

Following with interest as trying to sleep train my eight month old! We used to co sleep but it stopped working well for us. When dh is not around to sort out my three year old I park him in front of the tv while getting baby to settle. Not ideal when she is nearly asleep and we get interrupted by noisy complaints about advert breaks or needs to go to the loo but needs much..

Things are working, she only woke once last night and got back easily. I did feed her though as she was lastly hungry and is still quite little.. She was waking every hour or two when we slepttogethrt..

tholeon Thu 30-Aug-12 07:17:36

Hmm, apologies for huge amounts of typos and hope that makes a teeny bit of sense.. Trying to do too many things at once..

Bartusmaeus Thu 30-Aug-12 08:47:11

This is interesting. DS is 11 months and an awful sleeper. I used to think it was because he wanted to BF every time he woke up (which is frequently) but the last few nights we've co-slept and I've discovered that

a) he's mainly waking up because he rolls/sits up/crawls in his sleep and when he hits his cot bars or wakes up anyway he freaks out and needs comforting (i.e. boob) to go back to sleep

b) when sleeping in our bed (with just me not DH) he has enough space to roll about but then go back to sleep by himself without the boob (woo hoo!). The problem is that I still don't sleep well because he cries whilst rolling/sitting up etc. plus I get kicked in the night.

We've tried CC (a bit, I caved as I hated hearing him so hysterical) and we've tried me just sitting in the same room as him but he is hysterical that I'm there but not picking him up.

Has anyone else found that?

DuggiWontSleep Thu 30-Aug-12 10:20:31

Lucid - Omg omg omg - dont want to jinx it but he went to bed at 7.15 and woke at 5.30 !! I then patted him back to sleep and he slept until 6 at which point I opened the curtains in his room, said good morning and took him downstairs for his milk.

He did however keep yawning when he woke - is this what you (or others) have experienced?

Also his feet were freezing on waking - can anybody recommend some good bed socks for a 15 month old boy?

Really hope this wasnt a one off.

Btw - I love you Lucid !! :-)

icravecheese Thu 30-Aug-12 12:00:20

bartusmaeus - your DS sounds identical to my DD!! When I latch her on, she doesnt even bother to suck at night - its purely comfort, just having a boob in her mouth! plus I too have found the going into my DD and sitting by her cot & just patting / stroking her through the bars actually makes her scream even more than if I just left her to cry it out. Me being in there with her seems to upset her even more.

Last night I put DD to bed at 5.30pm (she had napped for only 1/2 hour all day, so was exhausted). Between 5.30pm and 10.30pm she woke every 40mins-1hr and, well....grizzled, not really a cry (certainly not hysterical) just loud angry singing. So I left her to it - I knew that if I went in, she would get seriously cross that i wasnt picking her up. Eventually she went off at 10.30pm and slept til 1.30am, woke up for a while & did the same, then went back off til 5.30pm, when I deemed it ok to be 'morning' time (now falling asleep infront of TV having been up and chirpy since 5.30am!!).

I don't think there is any miracle answer to sleep problems / training. My middle child didnt sleep through til 3yrs old....arghhhh!! But my first born slept like a dream from day 1.

lucidlady Thu 30-Aug-12 20:01:10

duggi that is awesome!!!! Fingers crossed this continues! You must feel great after finally getting some rest!

tholeon I've found DD is sleeping better since we stopped co-sleeping too. At the end of the day, all babies are different and what works for some families doesn't work for others.

bartusmaeus and icravecheese have you tried distracting them mid-hysteria? I have a couple of cuddly toys that I keep aside for this reason. DD fell asleep on the boob tonight and was not happy to be woken up before going in the cot. She had a full blown tantrum and managed to get her pyjamas off and her nappy hmm. I ended up dressing her again in the cot and distracting her with a teddy. She fell asleep within minutes.

DD went down at 715 tonight after a 40 minute tantrum/whining session. She wasn't crying, just making those annoyed noises. For some reason I'm expecting tonight to be a bit difficult, not sure why, just instinct. Hopefully I will be proved wrong...

DuggiWontSleep Fri 31-Aug-12 04:32:16

Lucid-like you, i too had a feeling that tonight wasn't going to be a good night. Put DS down at 8 and so far he's woken at 12, 4 and 4.15.

He only drank half of his bedtime milk as had dinner late so I think he must be hungry. Really wanted to give him some milk but have resisted.

I'm so tired sad

GEM33 Fri 31-Aug-12 05:22:47

This is so interesting! well done for your will power! youre doing amazing.
my dd wakes 10-20 times a night usually. with stretches of 1-3 hours awake some nights.
i would love to try this but im scared. we tried no cry solution and there was hysterics for 3 hours each night, once asleep sobbing in her sleep for an hour gave up after 3 days and a clingy baby.
the fact that it is only taking you an hour or so to settle at night makes me think that my dd is more of a hard nut because when i try to get her to fall asleep without boob it takes 2-3 hours even if it means she has been awake for 8 hours (she cant manage more than 4 hours awake time). the crying is more hysterical distressed "im going to die" if i dont have boob kind of wailing.
im going to google andrea grace as im interested to know if she was very expensive!
well done you though. i think you've done bloody fantastic.

DuggiWontSleep Fri 31-Aug-12 06:08:24

.....ang again at 5.15 and up for day at 6.

lucidlady Fri 31-Aug-12 08:39:55

duggi I'm so impressed by you resisting the milk feed. Like you I thought night 1 was easy, so I was a bit shocked at night 2 and then night 3 was just awful. I think what kept me going was the thought that if I caved in, the previous night's hard work would have been for nothing. Definitely make sure you feed him early and fill him up with milk, that's what I've been doing with DD and that seems to be working. Have you got a sippy cup or something in the room that you can use to give him water?

DD went down at 7.15 and then woke at 4.23. I could not get her back over so just got her up for the day at 5.30. She then proceeded to fall asleep on the floor, little madam. Woke her up gently and put her back in the cot, but she was having none of it.

Gem33 The package we got with Andrea cost £250 for a face to face consultation in Harley Street and 8 follow up sessions by phone. She does home visits if you're in North London, and that package would cost £350. I'm in SE London though, so had to go see her. I would definitely recommend her as despite the fact that DD is not quite sleeping through yet, we've seen such a HUGE improvement on her previous sleep pattern! How old is your DD?

DuggiWontSleep Fri 31-Aug-12 08:49:43

Lucid - do you think that maybe he still needs two naps during day as he usually starts day at 6 (yawn!) and im thinking that waiting until 11.30/12 to put him down for first nap may be making him overtired? When he woke up this morning he would not stop yawning...he really did look exhausted. Just at a loss as to what to do.

Also when your DD wakes do you feed her water?

I feel as though as soon as we're starting to make progress he regresses again -almost as if to tease me !

As I'm following the plan you have kindly shared with us, do you think its still worthwhile me seeing Andrea?

Im just so desperate - worse thing is I'm starting a full time job in two weeks.

Sorry for all the questions.

lucidlady Fri 31-Aug-12 09:13:01

duggi how old is he? Personally I found that going to see Andrea was immensely helpful. I'd already read her book and I knew roughly what her technique was, but in our chat, she also identified some other issues that I hadn't realised were causing problems. I think it is definitely worth talking to her to be sure that the plan will work for you personally. Are you in London? If you're not, then she does Skype consultations too if that is any good?

You said he's regressing - have you tried to train him before and if so what else have you tried? I give DD water when she wakes up. I figured that I get thirsty in the night so she probably does too. I've got one of those tommee tippee no spill cups and just keep that in her room.

If he's really tired then I'd let him sleep. I find with DD that if she gets overtired she gets totally manic and then bedtime becomes a complete battle. It might be worth just letting him have an extra hour or so to take the edge off?

I feel for you re the full time working. I work full time too and it is an absolute killer getting up in the night. You need to get this sorted asap. Andrea is so lovely. I more or less burst into tears in front of her and she told me I wasn't the first and won't be the last! Give her a call and have some un MN hugs ((duggi))

jan2011 Fri 31-Aug-12 09:49:09

hi does anyone have any ideas for me

ive been sort of following this method...after really bad sleep. the first few nights she cried but now she doesn't cry in the cot, but she still won't go to sleep (this is 3 weeks later). she will crawl round the cot and stand up continually unless i hold her down. she will even smile sometimes and think its a game. and she is completely knackered cos when i gave her the bottle awhile before she could have went to sleep - then gets a second wind as soon as she hits the cot. im literally standing over the cot for ages putting her back onto a lying position and lightly holding her legs so she can't stand up again until she gives up and falls asleep. she isn't crying, but the whole process can take an hour and hasn't got any easier from day 1. the only positive is she is sleeping a bit better through the night and i think she can fall back to sleep on her own better when she wakes up.

im so tired every night i dread bedtime! then she wakes up at 5ish and i give her milk then, she sometimes goes back to sleep but i never can.

DuggiWontSleep Fri 31-Aug-12 12:43:57

Lucid – he is 15 months old. The only sleep training we have done to date is getting him into his cot (he used to co-sleep which wasn’t really working for us as he moved around so much).

Basically at the moment I am trying to ensure he has dinner by 5.30, in bath by 6.30, followed by milk and story at 7.00 with aim of bed at 7.30 at the latest. I don’t lift him from cot during night and I have completely stopped night time feeds (will give warm water from tonight though as like you said, he prob does get thirsty). I also no longer bring him into my bed and only feed him once we’ve gone through our ‘good morning routine’.

I can totally see my having a breakdown if I were to meet her. I live in the midlands so would have to go Harley Street (quite old school in that I prefer physical face to face contact !). I just can't decide whether seeing Andrea will be worth the money seeing as I am pretty much following her plan. Really don’t know what to do !

jan2011 Fri 31-Aug-12 19:29:32

just spent awful time trying to get dd to sleep - now my heads sore and i ended up in tears as its so relentless. when does it start getting any easier? she is 11 months.

lucidlady Sat 01-Sep-12 21:14:09

Deep in teething hell here as well as coming down with colds. Getting DD to bed has been a bit of a battle the last two nights, but she has however slept through until 630 both times (went to sleep about 8).

jan2011 what happens if you don't keep lying her back down but instead just busy yourself pottering around?

duggi how are things? Has he settled any more the last couple of nights?

lucidlady Sun 02-Sep-12 07:42:14

It took me about 2 hours to get DD to settle last night due to teething and a heavy cold but she slept straight through until 6.47am, which was great. Andrea said we need to look again at what exactly I'm doing at bedtime as it really shouldn't be taking this long. I've to give it one more go tonight and then tomorrow she will tell me whether or not I need to make any changes to the routine.

Hope all the other babies are settling down now.

Yamyoid Sun 02-Sep-12 11:49:13

I just wanted to add a word of reassurance. My ds was an awful sleeper and continued to be when I returned to work part-time. However, when he was about 18 months old I went back full-time. After 2 weeks of full-time nursery, he started sleeping through, I think because he was so exhausted (in a good way!).

He is now 5 and still not a great sleeper. A Gro Clock helps but I do wonder if I'd followed a strict sleeping plan, like Andrea Grace, whether he'd be better now.

jan2011 Sun 02-Sep-12 19:12:59

currently thats what im trying - not holding her lying down in the cot. she is getting herself more woke up, more hyped, pressing buttons on the mobile pulling the toys off it crawling round the cot standing holding and shaking the bars...is this really the right thing to do? is this wat others do?? im just staying here beside the cot...until she falls asleep but she has never fell asleep by herself before so i don't think it will work.

lucidlady Sun 02-Sep-12 19:47:02

jan2011 it's what mine does! Eventually she tires herself out and goes to sleep. I try to interact with her as little as possible...can take a while sometimes!

pookypup Sun 02-Sep-12 19:50:31

Hi, I've been lurking with great interest in this thread. My 10 month old DS has been steadily getting worse at night time wakings and settling over the past 3 weeks. Inspired by you all I bought the book and am currently on day 4. It's going pretty well, but I've been having the same problems as jan2011 with so much activity in the cot. Last night I kept laying him down, which took 45mins and just seem to wind him up. Tonight I've just let him stand until he sits down on his own. We are at 25 mins and he's laid down. Not asleep yet, but down! This is better. Good luck to everyone doing this tonight.

lucidlady Sun 02-Sep-12 20:09:01

It's tortuous isn't it. Why won't these children just GO TO SLEEP!!!

jan2011 Sun 02-Sep-12 20:23:05

you have more patience than me pooky she was crying and crying while standing up and seemed more settled when i helped her lie down so i ended up doing that again and loosly holding her...i let her move about, but just not get up.
yes good luck to you all cos it is so exhausting and takes the energy out of me anyway! a good few nights i end up in tears too with it. ive recently split from my dh so noone to take over!

pookypup Sun 02-Sep-12 21:16:11

Oh jan2011 that must be really tough for you. It's hard work at the best of times, never mind on your own. Sounds like you are doing a really good job. My ds just fights me and gets more upset when I try to keep him down.

35 mins to go to sleep tonight down from 55 last night. It would be lovely if he slept past 5.30am though!

I'm off to get an early night myself, first day back at work tomorrow and who knows what tonight will bring.

I didn't feed to sleep tonight. She'd accepted a dummy for the first time earlier today so using that and singing she went to sleep in 35 mins. Woke up 30 mins later. Settled with same routine in 2.

I so need some sleep tonight.

Good luck everyone...

PineappleBed Sun 02-Sep-12 21:47:21

How long a story do you read and do you read a whole story or just a few pages?

Girding our loins to start this too...

lucidlady Mon 03-Sep-12 07:08:57

How did it go, everyone?

My DD went over in 25 mins, which is great, so was fast asleep by 8pm. I more or less ignored her after she went into the cot and just pottered about. She shouted for a bit then sang herself to sleep. She then woke up absolutely choked with the cold at 4.15am and couldn't get her back over....zzzzzzz. Today is going to be a long one....

Pineapple I read a storybook - one of the ones with about 10 words on each page. My DD is only 10 months though, so I guess it depends on the age of your DC?

Bartusmaeus Mon 03-Sep-12 08:58:23

Hey everyone

We had a couple of goodish nights recently (co-sleeping, no rolling/crawling/sitting in his sleep and only a couple of wakeups) so I was feeling a bit better but last night was awful again so we've decided to try this method.

First night will be this Wednesday as I work full time and I'm hoping that it'll be 4 bad nights and then better...so I can hopefully sleep at the weekend to catch up...

I have doubts though as DS tends to get hysterical when left in his cot (even if I'm standing right next to it).

I'm actually quite nervous about starting it as I'm so sleep deprived already and I know this will just make me even more tired.

PineappleBed Mon 03-Sep-12 10:28:03

Thanks lucid. Dd is also 10 months, she gets up 3-5 times a night and currently has milk and then cuddle till she's asleep again which takes 30 mins - 2 hours. I also don't want to do cc or co-sleep (as none of us would get any sleep at all!)

I'm a terrible sleeper and don't want her to be the same.

abadoo Mon 03-Sep-12 14:24:00

Place marking to follow this post.

RillaBlythe Mon 03-Sep-12 14:28:42

I'm going to try this. Starting Thursday.

lucidlady Mon 03-Sep-12 16:19:00

Hi all. Thinking about it, DD takes forever to fall asleep if she's not properly tired. I've looked back over my sleep diary for the last couple of weeks and noticed she always falls asleep around 4.5 hours after waking from her last nap, e.g. If she woke up at 3, she'll fall asleep at 7.30. I'm going to try putting her into the cot just before we hit the 4.5 hour mark, and see if that makes any difference. Just need to get her nap details from the childminder now!

PineappleBed Mon 03-Sep-12 18:29:27

Oh lucid what do you do about naps? Dd currently has a nap with the same milk then cuddle till asleep thing and if you don't put her down for a nap then she doesn't spontaneously fall asleep ever, she can stay awake all day. Do you just do the same milk, put in cot awake comfort etc until she falls asleep for a nap?

Sorry for all the questions, I think I've decided you're the Oracle!

lucidlady Mon 03-Sep-12 20:23:46

pineapple I wish! I'm just muddling along too. With naps, I can only get DD to nap in the pram. The childminder can get her to go to sleep in a cot but I've never managed it. She has 2 naps a day with me, first one is 90 minutes after waking and the second is about 3 hours after waking from the first. She usually naps for 2.5 hours in total.. When she's with her childminder she will take one long nap about 5-6 hours after waking up, and this nap averages out around 2 hours.

I was talking to Andrea today and she said lets fix the nighttime sleep and then the daytime sleep should sort itself out. The main problem we seem to have is working out the best nap/bedtime timeslots. I cannot seem to figure out when DD is tired enough to sleep.

DH has just wandered in and told me that I need to push bedtime back and be more engaged with DD when she's in the cot, ie lie there with my hand in the cot while she falls asleep! Have just had minor hissy fit and told him to eff off - when he manages to get her to sleep without calling me in to take over THEN he can lecture me!!! Muppet angry

Good luck tonight everyone - DD has just gone over 5.5 hours after last nap. I'm sure she does this deliberately, lets me think I've cracked it then
moves the goalposts confused

pookypup Mon 03-Sep-12 20:44:32

Thanks for the posts Lucid, it's reassuring to read. We have had a shocker tonight - 1 hr 30 of crying, he got so hot that I lifted him out to take off sleeping bag earlier. I've just caved in and have let him fall asleep on the boob.

Hopefully we can pick up again tomorrow night when he's not teething so badly! I'm also feeling guilty as it was my first day back at work.

lucidlady Tue 04-Sep-12 06:33:50

pookypup that must have been so hard for you especially after the back to work trauma!! Be gentle with yourselves, you've got a lot going on.

Another 4am screaming wake-up but this time I understand why - I've got a raging sore throat and sore ears, which is what i think she has, and I feel like screaming too. Poor poppet. DH overruled me this morning and insisted on bringing her into our bed for cuddles. I've left the two of them snoring away...

How did everyone else's nights go?

pookypup Tue 04-Sep-12 07:10:43

Ah thanks Lucid.

Ds ended up in our bed from 4.30 after 4 wakings. He slept like a log next to me and has just woken up. I now need to get ready for work in 30mins. Eeek!

abadoo Tue 04-Sep-12 20:03:16

What's the longest anyone's DS/DD has cried for in the cot whilst you were comforting them to sleep?

I tried this once and gave up after an hour (he was 6mo at the time) sad.

lucidlady Tue 04-Sep-12 20:15:36

pooky that is so typical isn't it. As soon as their head hits your pillow they're out for the count. Hope you weren't too shattered at work today.

abadoo DD's record was 2 hours and 15 minutes a few days ago. It was insane. But...

Tonight I pushed bedtime back to 8pm (I normally put her down about 7ish) as I'd realised that 8pm is when she normally crashed out after much singing/shouting/raspberry blowing etc. FIFTEEN MINUTES later she is out cold!!!

This is where my sleep diary has come so in handy! Woohoo! Now she just needs to stay asleep until 7am and I will be one happy mummy grin

If you don't do sleep diaries you should start - I think I may finally be starting to crack this....!

pookypup Tue 04-Sep-12 22:11:29

Very interesting Lucid, look forwards to seeing how tonight goes for you. I'll look over my diary in the morning

DS went after an hour tonight, mostly crying fussing. My Mum was visiting and took over for the last 10 mins and managed it. Dh usually works late and it was so good to have help. No stirring yet, but it's still early.

peggyblackett Wed 05-Sep-12 07:42:43

Wow - this works! We are on day 4 and dd2 (coming up for 8 months) slept through <shock>.

She was mad as a snake on the first night, for about 20 mins, but we have found it relatively easy once we stuck to the 'no BF at night' rule.

Thanks for posting this lucid. This post, along with chatting to one of DH's colleagues wives who'd used someone to help her with sleep training, has given me the push to try and sort it out. I've been running on empty for quite a while now, so fingers crossed things start to improve. I have to go back to work in a couple of weeks time, so I need things to improve smile!

peggyblackett Wed 05-Sep-12 07:43:26

Hope you had a better night pooky

pookypup Wed 05-Sep-12 07:52:17

Thanks Peggy. One waking but it was for 2hrs! How did everyone else get on?

lucidlady Wed 05-Sep-12 08:36:55

Morning all!

peggy that is awesome! You must feel fantastic today! Or did you keep going in to check she was ok?! I think once you have that first night of sleeping through, it gives you the strength to keep going doesn't it?

pooky that sounds much better than it normally is for you - how did you get him back over?

DD gets a gold star this morning - she slept from 8.15pm last night to 6.40am this morning! I'm so pleased, especially since she has a horrible cold and before we started this, she would have woken up every hour complaining and dripping snot. I do still think 8pm is a bit late for a 10 month old, but I have been told that when she starts dropping naps during the day she will sleep more at night. She's currently averaging 12-13 hours of sleep a day, of which 10ish are at night, and the remaining 2-3 during the day. Eventually she will get to a 12 hour night time sleep apparently. Bring it on!!

ItsaTIARA Wed 05-Sep-12 08:51:53

Really interesting thread. Good luck everyone.

What's interesting is that Andrea (who I haven't read) prescribes the same scheme I came up with after reading Dr Richard (Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems) Ferber and ditching his CC section.

1) Put them in their cot, alone, awake, after a soothing bedtime routine. Reassure and be there for them but do not pick them up.

2) Do not feed them in the night (except water)

3) Do not take them into your bed unless they are ill (or have bona fide nightmare with toddlers)

4) That's it.

That really is enough to get the vast majority of children with no special needs to sleep through.

I know Andrea says don't pick them up at night, and she has a point but actually I did, and it didn't seem to do mine any harm - in the middle of the night it's all about comforting, calming and minimising noise for me. IMO it's the habit of eating that wakes them up. Just like an office worker who has a mars bar at 11am every day will be starving and grumpy for a couple of days if they give it up. I don't think you would wake out of a habit of cuddles in the same way. Ferber's other analogy is that a baby who falls asleep on the boob and is then put in a cot is like an adult who's gone to sleep in bed and later turns over, semi-rouses and realises that SOME MANIAC HAS MOVED THEM INTO THE BATH! They are understandably unsettled by this.

The other key is understanding the difference between cross crying and distraught crying and responding accordingly.

lucidlady Wed 05-Sep-12 09:02:53

very good points itsatiara. Often the most effective sleep solution is the simplest one isn't it! To be fair to Andrea she said to me earlier this week that if DD is absolutely distraught and distressed then of course I should comfort her and pick her up - which is exactly what we had done on Monday morning and Tuesday morning. I'd been panicking afterwards that I'd ruined the progress we'd made but she told me not to be so silly, DD is the important person here and if she is distressed she needs to be comforted.

My daughter is quite a shouty child, she generally gets annoyed rather than distressed, which is why I don't tend to lift her out.

How is your DC sleeping now, has this been a long term solution for you?

A few of my friends have done CC, and they always end up having to repeat the training every few months so I was wondering if this would also need regular refreshers or if this is a more long term solution.

bigkidsdidit Wed 05-Sep-12 09:13:03

everyone is doing so well!

the advice from all sources is so similar I am thinking of setting myself up as an expert and just repeating it all grin

it works though so who cares!

Bartusmaeus Wed 05-Sep-12 13:53:30

Thanks for starting this thread lucid

My copy of Andreas book arrived yesterday and I started reading it in the train today. A first I was kinda "yeah yeah" as it was a bit guilt-inducing with the whole "babies need sleep" (I know! I'm trying!) but then I read a case-study which is almost exactly like my DS.

We've a late Drs appointment today so that'll throw everything out so we're going to start tomorrow.

Excellent tip about the sleep diary, will do that as my brain is so sleep-deprived that I often can't remember what I did in the night. Just that I got up far too many times angry

Going back to your point about the bedtime lucid Ds is 11 months and goes to sleep between 8pm and 8.30pm. Even if we try to do it any earlier, he just takes longer to go to sleep!

I'm in France and I don't know any baby (except a couple who have British mums) who goes to bed before 8pm. It seems to be the standard time here as no-one gets home before 7pm at the earliest. And they all apparently sleep through angry envy

PineappleBed Wed 05-Sep-12 16:20:51

So started last night. Took 2 hours for her to go to sleep but little crying. Then up for 1 hour 20 mins of crying at midnight, then through to 7.45!!

Crying was horrendous! And I was awake till 3am feeling sad and sure she was about to reawaken.

This morning she was her normal happy self and had had 2 bottles of milk today - Hooray - and a normal pooh so I think having milk during the day (rather than refusing milk in daylight as she's drunk it all in the night) is helping her bowels as I'd hoped.

Sorry poss TMI

ItsaTIARA Wed 05-Sep-12 17:07:12

My DCs are much older now OP, but yes, essentially they slept through from 10 months (they were never particularly bad sleepers to be fair - very poor nappers, but at the better end of the nighttime sleep spectrum).

We had the Great Stay In Your Bed at Bedtime wars of 2005-6, but we didn't have to repeat sleep training as we're talking about it now.

Mind you I stopped bf shortly after, so the temptation to feed a teething/poorly/nightmare ridden toddler wasn't there - we just cuddled and bed shared. I assume that if you're still bf during the day then you would naturally give night feeds in that situation which might be tougher.

<touches all the wood int he vicinity>

Since reading this thread I have been refusing to bf dd2 to sleep or lift her out of cot. Naptimes take 15 mins ish - bedtimes a lot longer - until tonight! In bed with comforter, dummy and me singing and 5 mins later - gone! I'm sure she'll wake up all night now but at least at the moment it seems like magic!

chollockbops Wed 05-Sep-12 19:54:46

Can I join the club?? Just starting this tonight and am mildly terrified! Screaming about to start in 3-2-1... sad

RillaBlythe Wed 05-Sep-12 21:42:49

So when I start this tomorrow should I do the same for naps? I boob her to nap in about 10mins & her naps are good, happy to continue like that tbh but don't want to do mixed messages...

pookypup Wed 05-Sep-12 21:43:47

Well done pomme and pineapple! That sounds great, 5 mins is stunning. How many nights have you been doing it for?

We were better tonight - 40 mins to go down.

abadoo Wed 05-Sep-12 21:46:12

Bartusmaeus - the only time I tried keeping my DS in his cot and cuddling him over the cot bars, singing etc to him he screamed for an hour before I gave up. It was a month back though and we've been working at improving him going down since them, so I'm hoping it was a one off... Last night I successfully kept him in his cot by shushing him back to sleep/singing/rocking in his cot (am hoping to gradually withdraw).

abadoo Wed 05-Sep-12 21:47:55

Lucid - 2hr 15!! Ok, so next time I shall try not to crack. Am starting a diary (have been doing them intermittently but I am interested to see if he crashes out at the same time every night...). Thanks smile

GEM33 Wed 05-Sep-12 21:50:07

Ive read every post eagerly. I feel on the same wave length as drcrab. I also had the same questions as pineapple.

In order to try and get dd to self settle to sleep at night, I tried the stay in the room method after paying 50 quid for that american womans sleep sense programme when my dd was about 5.5months old (now hitting 9 months in a few days). even though me and dh took it in turns to sit by her bed giving the odd pat or ssh /hold her hand she cried in an extremely distressed way for 2.5 hours, then sobbed in her sleep for an hour, she did this on 3 nights running. the crying was despite the odd cuddle, reassuring all we could without too much interefering etc as recommended in the programme. After the 3rd night, i had a break down and told dh i couldnt follow through with this what seemed like torture. we stopped and went back to feeding to sleep and feeding every 45-60 minutes through the night, all night from 8-7am.

I feel like a failure. dd has started walking and crawling at the same time now and she seems even more tired and truly needs 12 hours but she just doesnt get it. her sleep is worse than ever and started holding on to my nipple into her sleep as a proper dummy. i cant seem to unlatch her until she is in deep sleep. Some days i cant cope with anything.

sleep deprivation is slowly eating me up and i feel like my life has come to a standstill.

i really really want to try this lucid. ive got sooo much admiration for you for doing this. (and everyone else on here). I am absolutely terrified of starting this though. dd proper falls apart in tears when i try to get her self settle recently. i realise that if i started this, i'd have to follow through all the way through the night. no feeds. i just dont feel strong enough. i've been losing it the last couple of weeks and have shouted a couple of times and broken down in tears when dd wakes and even boob wont get her back to sleep.

like pinepapple says, my dd has started crawling round the cot and pushing buttons on the mobile and literally climbing the walls etc, i can cope with this but the crying no. so i take it from what you say, when they get beyond, you can pick them up and cuddle for comfort but then put back to bed?
i live too far away for andrea grace and theres no way i could afford any sleep expert until im back at work and earning again.

if any of you who have already posted have bothered to read this lengthy post, do you think i should try this? do you think it would be too torturous for my dd? she is very very wilfull and very hard to get to sleep and loves her boob so much. i wonder if we could actually make any difference with this. im so scared of doing her any emotional damage. im getting to the end of my tether though. and work is looming in dec.

if there are others on here whose babies have cried longer than 2 hours how long did it take to get less crying? lucid, i know you ve had a rough time but your dd sounds like an angel compared to mine. ive just got so much admiration for you though.

peggyblackett Wed 05-Sep-12 22:03:44

Oh GEM, you sound as though you're having a rough old time <<>>.

I dont have any pearls of wisdom to impart but the way I look at it is that if I don't get it sorted then I end up being an awful mummy - shouty, teary, forgetful and certainly not happy - as that is what sleep deprivation does to me over time. I also have two other dcs to think about. If it helps my ds was a dreadful sleeper, and a very cross, raaarrrrr sort of baby. We did something similar to Andrea Grace - controlled crying for softies (me) and he was sleeping through in no time, and is now a very happy, well sleeping toddler. It was hell for about three nights, but it absolutely got better. That is what is keeping me going. I did find it awful the first night to not offer the boob, as she is an absolute boobaholic.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do smile

ItsaTIARA Wed 05-Sep-12 22:03:46

Oh you poor thing Gem. Personally I do think that 6 months is a bit too young for many babies to understand what's going on and that's why it didn't work. In theory 9 months should normally be more like it.

I think that what I'd personally do would be to go cold turkey in the middle of the night first of all - feed her as much milk as possible in the day, cuddle and reassure for night wakings and offer water in a bottle. But if she's used to that much feeding at night she will probably yell the place down while she gets used to not feeding at night, and it will be very tough at first .

GEM33 Wed 05-Sep-12 22:13:20

peggy, yes i totally agree, im not a happy mummy. this sleep thing is taking over my life. im on here every single night (not spending time with dh as he has just commented!) reading these sleep threads.

itsa, yeah, i guess its like me eating something at the same time every night and then not being allowed to have it, my tummy would rumble, i wouldnt be able to sleep, i'd be upset but eventually i would get used to it.

i just read up the reverse cycling thing on kellymom someone mentioned, yes, i have a distractable baby that feeds less in the day now and its a vicious cycle.

i still dont know what to do. i feel weak. i wish she would just start sleeping through by herself. ;-(

lucidlady Wed 05-Sep-12 22:47:05

Evening all!

Wow so many posts. So impressed with pomme pineapple and pooky - seems to be working for you already. Totally envy at 5 minutes too....

Gem I read your other thread and really feel for you. Sleep deprivation is such a killer. I think you should do whatever it takes to get as much sleep as possible over the next couple of days, so that you're feeling more rested and able to deal with it. Can you co-sleep just for a night or two? That's what I did and then went for it with this technique. I really think this could make a difference to you. A tip that Andrea gave me was to keep talking cheerfully once your DC is in the cot - have a wee potter around the room and be cheerful - your DC will pick up on any tension or stress in your voice. If she is truly upset (and you will know if she's upset or just peed off) them of course you can comfort her. My DD has been a total boob monster since birth and I found it so hard to nightwear but I just kept thinking, teaching her how to sleep is the best thing I can do for her, and that made it easier. My DD reverse cycled too and I thought I was going to die from exhaustion. It was surprisingly easy to get her off the night feeds once I made my mind up that was it - make sure you have some water for her to drink as this helps ease the transition. Stay strong - she will give you a really hard time for the first 2 or 3 nights. Good luck!

Rilla I think the general advice is to address either naps or nighttime but not both together st first. Andrea told me to do whatever it took to get DD to nap, as we were focusing on nighttimes.

chollock how did you get on?

bartus and abadoo the diary is definitely worth it. Once you analyse it you can see definite patterns to their sleep.

It's so good to hear that people have been through this and come out the other side! You're helping me keep going.

Tonight was an earlier bedtime as DD was knackered. Put her down at 1923 and she was just going over when DH arrived home. Cue much shrieking and jumping until she got some daddy cuddles. Thankfully she settled down pretty quickly and was asleep by 8pm, so not too bad all things considered! There has been no real complaining the last two nights, just a last ditch yell and then she sings herself to sleep. She goes to sleep in some very odd positions though...tonight was face down with bum in the air, one leg straight out behind her and the other tucked forward like some bizarre split. Didn't look very comfy but she is still asleep so if it works, I'm not moving her!!

peggyblackett Wed 05-Sep-12 23:31:56

Good luck for tonight everyone. Minipeg is still asleep <touches everything in sight>.

She's rolling around my bed currently. Not quite to plan. I just can't have her screaming in the middle of the night when she's next to dd1...

Dh woke me up during her stretch of sleep between feed at eleven and three wake up too so am grr with everyone.

Hope everyone else is getting some sleep!

chollockbops Thu 06-Sep-12 04:44:09

Well, night 1 is going brilliantly for DS, who amazingly settled himself in the cot after only 20 mins and has only woken twice (TWICE!) Since and gone back down within minutes. This after nearly a year of co-sleeping and feeding every hour! I'm well aware it won't be like this every night though.

I, On the other hand, have terrible insomnia and have only managed a couple of very broken hours. Oh well...

Gem, please try to be kind to yourself. You're not a failure- it's just that lack of sleep is so hard. I second the opinion that 6 months is really young for any sleep training and that you might have a totally different experience now or in a few months' time. I really sympathise as mine is also a boob monster and a very 'needy' baby. Try to get some rest before starting anything if possible. Co-sleeping is the only way I've been able to survive these last months, do you think that could work for you temporarily?

Another thought is that it might be a bit much to go cold turkey on the night feeds. There's a case study in the Andrea Grace book where the night feeds are gradually withdrawn over a couple of weeks- the key is that you never allow the baby to fall asleep while feeding. This is what I'm trying to do as stopping feeds altogether seemed a bit harsh (I'm a wimp though...). Good luck.

pookypup Thu 06-Sep-12 06:03:15

Gem, I agree with all the excellent advice on here. I'm a massive softy with a DS who had been boob fed and cuddled to sleep at forever. I'd tried the no cry sleep solution for about 2 months with some success but in the last few weeks he had obviously worked something out and would scream as soon as he hit the cot. I'd always said I didn't want him to cry and was really reluctant to try this.

As lucid suggested I gave us all a break and focused on getting some sleep before starting. Ordered the book and read it to give me confidence.

We have been going for a week now and I know this was the right decision for us. I am much calmer because I'm in control again. We have had some hard nights and evenings, particularly a bad Monday night which I think was teething related. However, I can see results now. He took 40 mins to go to sleep and has just slept through until 5.30. Most amazing for me, he has started laying down quietly and seems to understand what he needs to do.

I think being aware of the type of cry is important. He's grumbling now but it is not a panicked distress cry, it's a tired and annoyed at me fuss.

Good luck Gem, with whatever you decide.

pookypup Thu 06-Sep-12 06:06:42

Hello Chollock - how did you get on?

Rilla - book says carry on as normal with naps at first.

Suchanamateur Thu 06-Sep-12 08:24:31

Thanks to Lucid for starting this thread- its inspiring! And congratulations to those who are seeing it through and having progress. Gem - agree with previous posters that what was a disaster at 6mo might be very different a few months later. Certainly true for my DS who we tried to sleep train at 7 months and failed miserably. Tried again at 10 months and pretty much worked in a night. Good luck.

Lucid- did Andrea give advice about overall routines etc as well? My DD will occasionally self settle but just mainly rolls and plays in her cot before each sleep for hours and then gets wildly overtired. Need some help sorting because we're now in crazy overtired spiral.

BartiiMus Thu 06-Sep-12 08:32:25

Argh I have a dilemma.

We had planned on starting gradual withdrawal tonight. But yesterday we saw a stomach specialist for DS' sickness and he thinks it's reflux, and silent reflux at night (the Dr was amazed that DS wakes so often every night. I was surprised at how shocked he was). So we have some new medicine for that.

So, do I still try sleep training or do I hope the medicine works, at least to reduce the number of wakeups so i'm more rested before trying the training...?!

Last night DH and I agreed to give the medicine one week to kick in and try sleep training next week.

But I then had an awful night with Ds up for 2 hours in the night (plus other wakeups) and I'm so tired I'm tempted to try the training tonight. Although I know that when it's evening I'll prefer Ds to go to sleep quickly rather than sitting listening to him crying...

lucidlady Thu 06-Sep-12 12:41:58

Hello everyone.

DD slept through until 5.20am when she woke up starving. I thought this might happen as she'd been so tired last night she refused to eat her dinner properly and just pecked at it. Did the "good morning!" and opened curtains etc despite it being pitch black outside - poor lamb was a little confused. After some milk and a bit of a play she went back to sleep for a little while around 6.30 but then had to be woken up to go to the childminder. I am normally up around 5 anyway so the early waking didn't bother me too much.

She's doing so well - I'm so proud of her!

chollock and peggy how did the rest of your nights go? I think the insomnia is something we all suffer from once the babies start sleeping better - it's like your brain is expecting to have to wake up in a few mins so just puts off going to sleep! Hopefully it is just temporary insomnia and will pass once things are more settled.

pomme Andrea has a case study in her book for a family who had a baby and an older child, don't know whether this would work for you?

pooky sounds like your DS has really got the hang of it!! Such great news.

suchanamateur Do you mean naps etc? Or do you mean the bedtime routine? If your DD is rolling around and not settling, is it possible that bedtime is too early? I mentioned in a post upthread that I'd decided to push DD's bedtime back as there was far too much jumping around going on - I'd been keeping a sleep diary and noticed she was falling asleep at roughly 8pm every night. Seems that I was putting her down too early and she just wasn't tired enough for a 7pm bedtime.

Bartii Good news that the dr is able to help DS. Poor little thing. No wonder he's been up so much in the night. Did you start him on the meds last night? If so, how did it go, was he more settled? If it was me I think I might be inclined to give it a day or two of getting used to the meds and then starting the sleep training because I am a wimp and would be worrying that there was too much change going on. Also, I think you need some rest before starting this because the temptation to just revert to old behaviours when your body is screaming for sleep is just awful. Maybe see how he is tonight and tomorrow then start on Saturday?

BartiiMus Thu 06-Sep-12 12:57:11

Have to give the meds in the morning so started today.

I am a wimp about sleep training. DH is French and has many times said we need to leave DS to CIO (as is standard for the French) but I've refused each time.

I'll see how he sleeps tonight. He spent ages eating in the night too. I thought it might be because he's coming down with a cold or something (some calpol in the night stopped him crying and he slept) but then it turns out he didn't eat much yesterday so i've told my mum to fill him up today! grin

Sounds like it's a method that could work though. I am scared of the prospect of worse nights at first though.

lucidlady Thu 06-Sep-12 14:01:43

I am the original sleep training wimp so I know exactly how you are feeling Bartii.

I guess the question is, can it really get any worse than it is now? Yes ok so you could have an irritated and annoyed child on your hands for an hour or so but if he then started getting used to going to bed and understood what he needs to do once he's in bed, ie go to sleep and stay asleep, wouldn't that be worth a couple of days of hell? I reckon it's the first 4 nights that are the worst. If you're worried about doing this and then getting up for work the next day, is it possible to book a few days off and then you can rest up again in the daytime?

Fingers crossed the meds are working their magic.

RillaBlythe Thu 06-Sep-12 14:22:51

I really appreciate this thread, Lucid & all others who have shared their wisdom. I am supposed to be starting tonight (I've told you guys & DP!) but am getting cold feet... Last night she went down at 7.30, only woke at 11.30, 4.20 & up at 6am. That is not too bad so maybe I should leave her to it... That's my thought process! But she will be one in a fortnight & two nights ago she was up 5 times. & if I leave it DP will push for CC & I will be too knackered to do anything else (this is what happened with DD1). Argh!

What meds have you got Barti? I took dd2 off her reflux meds about 2 weeks ago as weaning and sitting up had helped enormously.

I wouldn't avoid sleep training totally but I'd make it very, very gentle. IS his cot raised?

Suchanamateur Thu 06-Sep-12 14:40:55

Thanks Lucid. I meant naps etc routine and overall timings. Bedtime routine is solid but doesn't seem to do us much good. Having seem your trials, I did try a later betime yesterday. She still needed a fair amount o help from me but settled much quicker overall. I just think our whole thing is out of hack and can't see the wood for the trees to put it right. Or be consistent!

Agree with whoever was talking about type of cry. I also realise that now I rushed in and picked her up at every cry. When I dont she often goes back off almost immediately.

My dd2 is only 6 months by the way... So I finding some comfort int he idea that if it doesnt work it might in a few weeks/months! I feel I have to try now because I am 1. desperate, 2. a bad mummy to dd1 and 3. going to start doing bits of work in the next few weeks.

Gem, we're going to try this in a couple of nights time, but ds2 wakes to feed at least three or for times a night, so we're going to try something recommended by a friend. The first night, each time they wake for a fed, only feed them for 7 minutes. The next night, only for 6, etc. it's a gradual way of cutting out the night feeds. It worked for them. I'm going to make sure there it's a beaker of water in his room, so I'll see if that helps the tears that are sure to come when I take him of the breast.

BartiiMus Thu 06-Sep-12 16:11:56

pomme

We haven't tilted DS' cot. We did for ages but it made no difference and now he's so active in his sleep that he wouldn't be able to sleep ina tilted cot.

He's been less sick since about 9 months (he's now 11 months) although we started weaning at 5 and he's been sitting unaided since about age 7 months... The only thing that has really made a difference has been walking - he's been walking for nearly a month now and is almost never sick (cross fingers)

The Dr just said it's probably silent reflux at night...

I think I will start introducing a different bedtime routine now (atm he goes to sleep feeding on our bed and I carry him through! I know! Everything we're not meant to do but we haven't always done this, just since he refused to feed sitting on my lap) and gently work up to sleep training.

tholeon Thu 06-Sep-12 17:18:18

Hi all, have been following but never seem to have time to post. Have been training dd, eight months, following lots of this advice with some success, feel lucky though as I think she is relatively adaptable!

But wanted to post to send lots of sympathy to gem, you poor thing, that extent of sleep deprivation is horrible. I wondered whether you could start by trying to get her asleep by any means except boob at bedtime, and then maybe setting rules like no feed before one am, to give her tummy time to adapt. Re emotional damage worries, all I can say was that I was agonising over possible sleep training with my ds, who is three, when he ended up in intensive care for a week, attached to all sorts of wires so I couldn't hear him cry, let alone pick him up. He was five months. Anyway, my point is that he got through that and is fine and seemingly un affected, puts the sleep training stuff in perspective a bit I think. Best of luck, hope things get better for you.

PineappleBed Thu 06-Sep-12 18:34:06

Hi guys, so pleased to hear for some that this is working well - v motivating! DD went down at 7.30 last night like a light as she was knackered from no nap but I did manage (just) to wake her and do the story. She went till 4am when she was up slugging around the cot and occasionally crying until 6am when she went back to sleep and woke at 8am. I think it's working as only waking once is totally amazing! She also doesn't seem to miss milk and is still happy and loving during the day.

I'm just doing naps like I used to - milk and hold on lap till asleep but today it took 5 mins from finishing milk to being asleep enough to transfer to cot and normally it takes 25-40 mins so maybe that's a positive knock-on (or maybe I'm over optimistic from the high of having a stretch of sleep longer than 3 hours).

Fingers crossed for you all for tonight!

jan2011 Thu 06-Sep-12 21:40:09

so stressed out after an hour and a half of trying to get dd to sleep.

i have been trying to have her nap in morning and afternoon - but she has a mind of her own - she has different nap routines every day, and when i try to make her nap when she isn't ready she won't! she doesn't sleep very long during the day too. i think she is moving from 2 naps to one around lunchtime that lasts around an hour.

i don't know if i can continue doing this every night unless it gets any easier... the plus is she is sleeping better DURING the night, but getting her to sleep is so difficult and stressful that i honestly don't know if its worth it.

lucidlady Thu 06-Sep-12 21:53:47

Rilla what did you decide to do in the end?

pineapple one waking is amazing! That's very quick progress, you must be delighted. How's it going tonight? Funnily enough DD's childminder told me earlier that naps have become so much easier. She pops her in the cot and she's asleep in minutes. Now I just need to figure out why she doesn't do this at home envy

tholeon that must have been terrifying with your DS. Great to hear that your DD has taken to this so well!

bartii and pomme how's it going for you? Are the meds helping your DS Bartii?

suchanamateur no Andrea hasn't discussed daytime routines with me in a lot of detail. She reckons that daytime naps fall into place when you get the nighttime sleeping sorted out. We did however talk about the fact that babies have a 90 minute alertness/sleep cycle. DD always gets tired in 90 minute multiples following her last wake up. So for example her morning nap is 90 minutes after waking for the day, then she has her lunchtime nap 3 hours after waking from the morning nap. Not sure if that helps?!

Gem how are you today? How are things with your DD?

I had a very tired DD on my hands again today so thought I should put her down at 715. She fell asleep on the boob and I had to wake her up for the story. Got her into the cot and she lay straight down. Woohoo, I thought. Party time, thought DD. I couldn't believe it. She sprang straight back up and shouted and stomped around until 8pm at which point she just flopped down and went to sleep. New rule in the lucid household: do not put DD in cot before 8pm. Ever.

lucidlady Thu 06-Sep-12 21:55:39

Sorry to hear you're having a rough time jan. What's your routine with your DD? How old is she again?

RillaBlythe Thu 06-Sep-12 22:27:23

Thanks for asking lucid I haven't really decided! I fed her, read the stru & put her down - she wriggled, sat up, cried a bit & eventually went to sleep after 35 mins with my hand on her chest. But anxious about the idea of not feeding her in the night - I know she will be angry! Wondering whether to do putting her down awake for a few nights then move on, although missing the night feeds isn't really related I suppose!

pookypup Thu 06-Sep-12 23:04:08

A little update from us - asleep in a record 20 mins and I haven't heard a peep from him since.

A friend who has been through this suggested I tried to not comfort him so much now we have been doing it for a while. I more or less ignored him and just sat next to the cot. It seemed to work better than cuddling and trying to comfort (it's my night 7).

Jan, it's horrible when they just cry for so long. It will improve I'm sure.

lucidlady Fri 07-Sep-12 15:04:13

DD woke up screaming last night, absolutely inconsolable so I lifted her out of the cot. She kept on screaming so I ended up having to give her a feed to calm her down. I think she was hungry as she absolutely guzzled the milk, then just cuddled up to me and then crawled off in the direction of the cot again! had to lift her back in so she could go back to sleep, bless. She then slept til 7am.

How did you get on Rilla pooky and everyone else? pooky your friend is absolutely right btw, Andrea says this is part of the withdrawal to achieve the ultimate aim of baby going to bed and to sleep without any intervention from us.

BartiiMus Fri 07-Sep-12 15:24:01

Oh wow I am a convert! grin
DH says not to get too excited as it was just one night but hey! Best night in ages smile

Breastfed DS in his room rather than on our bed. As he started to fall asleep I got the book out and he pinged awake (he loves books). But was very pissed at being then put into his cot.

He cried and cried and screamed and cried. Stood up whenever I lay him down. I ended up cuddling him with him in the cot screaming at me sad and nearly gave up. But then I looked at the clock and saw that he'd only be crying for 10 minutes!

He eventually stayed lying down when I put him down but still cried. The only thing that stopped him crying was my rubbing my hand back and forth on his cot bumpers. Touching him annoyed him but that rubbing the bumpers calmed him. He fell asleep after 30 minutes of crying. Much better than I thought it would be although still horrible.

He woke up at midnight and 4am - each time it took me only 10 minutes to get him back down again. Then our alarm woke him up at 7.15!

We did cheat slightly - during the night I BF him and put him down practically asleep - just a couple of pats and he was out. My plan is to install the bedtime routine which already means he wakes less frequently, then tackle the night feeding and waking. I need to catch up on sleep myself, even if this way takes longer.

jan How old is your DC? DS sleeps in his pushchair in the day, even in the flat. We're lucky that we've got a very long hallway so we just push him up and down that. I know he 'should' be in his cot but my parents look after him and this works very well so until the nights are better we're leaving it like this. At least this way he sleeps at least 2 hours a day which he really needs.

BartiiMus Fri 07-Sep-12 15:27:14

I forgot to say, I finished reading AG's book yesterday and I liked the fact that she said how to deal with sickness at night and the fact that I too now have a sleeping problem from having gone 11 months waking up many times a night, and find it harder to get to sleep.

jan2011 Fri 07-Sep-12 15:50:16

dd is almost 12 months, she has stopped wakening as much during the night which is amazing but now won't go to sleep. she gets up at around 7am, sometimes she has 2 naps one around 10 and one around 3 for about 25 minutes each, but lately she has been moving to one longer nap around lunchtime, usually just after lunch. she doesn't usually sleep longer than an hour, no matter what i do.

her bedtime routine is dinner at 5, bath at 5.45, bottle around 6.45, story and bed around 7. last night she fell asleep on the bottle as she was exhausted but i woke her and put her into the cot (she woudn't have stayed asleep in the transfer anyway - much too alert) and then she got a second wind and was hyper for ages in the cot. she isn't always crying in the cot but clearly protesting.

i don't have the strength to keep laying her down time after time. i dread bedtimes! any ideas?

BartiiMus Fri 07-Sep-12 16:27:51

jan No ideas I'm afraid but I sympathise. I went through a stage of crying before DS' bedtime as I was just so tired and fed up and depressed with it all.

DS is 11.5 months and I think he's approaching that tricky stage of maybe dropping one nap but not being sure so some days falls asleep at midday (before lunch!) - one day this weekend he slept til 2.30pm so had lunch very late! (and mucked up the rest of the routine)

DS gets up between 7 and 8 (depends on when our alarm goes off), first nap is around 11am (used to be 10am until a couple of weeks ago) for about 35 minutes, second nap is between 2 and 3pm, for anything between 30mins and 2 hours...hard to know. If he does a longer nap it's usually cos he's woken up once and then has been walked around again in his pushchair to send him back off to sleep.

But we don't start the bedtime routine til 7.30pm (bath) and he's usually asleep by 8.30pm (and then wakes in the night but hey, hopefully that'll stop soon!)

For eating it's
9am breakfast
12.30 lunch
4pm bottle
6pm dinner
Then a breastfeed at night.

To be honest the only thing I could suggest is putting her to bed later. Although if she's exhausted at 7 that'll be hard.

Do you have quiet time at the end of the day? We find that around 5pm DS is really irritable, so we calm him down with books and sometimes 15mins of a DVD if he's really fractious, then he gets a second wind after dinner and is ready to go to start his bed routine at 7.30 although he almost never falls asleep before 8.

It's so hard isn't it? <unMN hugs>

jan2011 Fri 07-Sep-12 19:49:55

thanks so much for the hugs and understanding im sorry you went through feeling so down about it all too - and the tiredness affects everything too im sure. do you feel youve come through that stage now?

yeah i do try to wind her down with the cbeebies and that, i guess though she is darting across the floors and not generally getting that calmed, so i could try more book reading. i was thinking of spraying some lavender essential oil in her cot!

believe it or not, tonight is the night my dh (exdh) took dd for awhile. he took her to his mums and bathed her there after work and was to bring her home to do her story and put her down. of course, she fell asleep in the car, and he transferred her straight to the cot! why do men always get it easy? typical! he has no clue what im going through every night. but i hope that she will not be waking up all night, now that she didn't remember going into the cot, ifuswim.

GEM33 Sat 08-Sep-12 16:21:30

i ve read some but need to catch up on posts, thanks so much for being supportive. this really is a brilliant thread lucid. i not got time to post properly now but will be back.

lucidlady Sat 08-Sep-12 19:51:22

Evening all.

Tonight is NOT going to plan. DD hasn't napped properly today, and her afternoon map finished an hour earlier than usual so I thought I'd put her to bed an hour earlier, ie at 7pm. I have clearly learned NOTHING as she is still fecking awake and I bet you she conks out at 8pm as per bloody usual. WHY do I do this to myself... At least she's stopped verbally abusing me and is just giving me baleful looks instead....

Barti sounds like night 1 went really well! How did last night go?

jan I don't lay DD down. I just let her march around. Eventually she tires herself out. I agree with barti that a later bedtime might be worth a shot? Try pushing the bath back. If she has her bottle at 645 than a 545 bath might be too early? Try bath at 615? Our bath was originally too early as well and Andrea told me to push it back. How did it go last night?

How's everyone else doing?

lucidlady Sat 08-Sep-12 19:54:20

Really must learn my lesson... 1954 and DD has just gone to sleep.

Time for wine

jan2011 Sat 08-Sep-12 20:58:06

another bad night here too and also im sat in tears cos my ex has upset me. hugs lucid your night sounds rough. i think i will try to have the bath later and maybe try putting her in later. i let her do her own thing for awhil in the cot tonight for awhile and it was easier for me, but she did just wind herself up...
its so difficult all this. please someone tell us it gets easier soon!

lucidlady Sat 08-Sep-12 21:07:10

Hugs to you too jan. What happened in the end, how did she go to sleep? Do you think she might be picking up on your frustration? I know my DD was which is why Andrea kept telling me to be cheerful and upbeat when talking to her.

It does get easier, I promise. Do you have anyone who can give you a break in the daytime?

GEM33 Sat 08-Sep-12 21:39:39

jan, sounds like you are doing amazing especially as your without dh. and yes, typical that he got it easy. i think men dont worry about things half as much as we do and their laid back approach rubs off to the kids.

barti- omg, im at the sleeping problem stage now too. even though im totally exhausted, and when dd is asleep, i lie there awake dreading the next wake up etc. i am going to buy this a/g book i think.

im up to speed with everyone now! purely down to the fact that lots of you are making progress Im going to try this. dh and i have formulated a plan.

so, we have been co sleeping for 9 months now. We did move the cot to the side of the bed after dd grew out of the proper co sleeper bed 2 months ago but we found that the only person actually in the cot was half of my body and my pillows because dd was spread eagled in the middle of our superking size bed!!
so weve put the side back on and moved the cot away from the bed. we are going to carry on feeding to sleep but make sure that every single time we are putting her in the cot. also we are going to stop giving boob every single time she wakes up. i'll feed her every 2-3 hours and dh has said he will rock her back to sleep inbetween so as to cut down the amount of boob without too much distress.
then in a few days-hopefully she'll be more used to the cot and bit less boob, we'll start properly to do this a/g thing of putting her in the cot and leaving her to it to self settle and we'll try giving water instead of boob.
Ive had to promise dh that i wont lose the plot at night and give in. i'll keep you posted!
lucid, do you think that now your dd is sleeping more in the night its brought about earlier wakings?

BartiiMus Sun 09-Sep-12 05:45:07

Argh. Im sorry to report that night 2 and 3 did not go as planned :-(

Bedtime was easier - only 5 mins crying last night easily distracted by kisses BUT woke 6 times in the night (both nights) sometimes with only 30 mins between wakeups. Its now 6.30 sunday and hes babbling away in the cot next to me. I cant decide whether to get him up or see if he'll fall asleep again. Its still dark outside :-(

Am hoping its teething causing the wakeups as he was unusually grouchy all day yesterday. Calpol hasnt seemed to do much though.

DH has decamped to the living room so one of us at least can have a decent sleep. I really hope this method works eventually as id like DH to take over some of the bedtimes and maybe night wakings. Nearly 12 months old and I've done them all!

jan2011 Sun 09-Sep-12 08:21:33

lucid i think you have a point there - i am ok the first while and then i get more frustrated and she may pick up on this so i ill watch that. thanks gem for the encouragement...im sorry you are so tired at the minute too its so hard sometimes as tiredness affects so much. i hope you get some rest today.

bart that must be so hard doing it all yourself for a year... i really hope you find a way your dh can help more even getting him involved in her bedtimes more or the early wake up. i don't think its fair really for one person to have all that burden especially when she is up 6 times a night! maybe dh could take her today so you can get some kip?

my dd has started sleeping in the past few days! this is unusual. she used to wake up around 6.30 -7 and now its an hour later. i don't mind this, but im up from 6 anyway...in fact sometimes im up from 5 as i fed her at 5 and then couldn't get back to sleep again. perhaps this is cos she is falling asleep later now? she has also changed her daytime naps from 2 to one longer one around just after lunch.

good luck everyone tonight. today dh is taking dd for a few hours. i will be glad just to get some peace and quiet and get the ironing done. smile

RillaBlythe Sun 09-Sep-12 09:13:37

How old is your dd Jan? It must be hard with nobody around to give you a break.

Bart 4 years down the line with dd1 & dp has pretty much never done a night waking! Oh well. He does do bedtimes now though.

So I have been putting dd down awake at bedtime the past three nights, & she's settled okay around the 30min mark, no real crying. Haven't had the courage to do it in the night, can't cope with getting any less sleep plus anxious that she still needs the milk..., but last night she went down at 8pm & didn't wake until 5am! Then she went back down till 6.15. So clearly she doesn't need the milk. My boobs were full but not engorged. Amazing. Maybe I will try not feeding her tonight then...

jan2011 Sun 09-Sep-12 09:28:37

Rilla she is coming 1. my mum has been a great help she comes a few times a week. i am the same as you in that i haven't the courage to do this during the night yet... but actually, i haven't needed to as much as she hasn't woke as much (apart from whe she was teething - but i wouldn't do that to her when she is teething) so it is definately helping with her night wakenings. and i heard someone say that if you feed them around 5 -6 even if they don't really need it, it can help them stay over longer, so i don't mind. and this is working out now cos she is sleeping in!

GEM33 Sun 09-Sep-12 17:33:54

barti -i know exactly what you mean, i start off calm and think its not my dd's fault she is upset or wakes when i put her down, she doesnt understand and then after so many times, when you havent had your tea and your knackered, its starts to get really frustrating. you just have to go to a calm place in your head and like someone has said on here before put on a cheery voice. xx
rilla, thats amazing sleep, so what youre saying is that you dont get dd to re settle at nigt, you carry on feeding but the self settling at the start of the night is having an impact on the sleep? thats brilliant.
dd slept in her cot all night last night!! woke up 7 times but i only fed her 3 times and dh rocked her back to sleep in between ... i had the best sleep ive had for ages without her in bed. co sleeping just wasnt working any more for me. which is sad because i love having her close.

BartiiMus Mon 10-Sep-12 08:31:05

Night 4 was better - yay!
Asleep 10 minutes after I put him in his cot (wide awake after his favourite book) although he did cry quite a lot.

Two wakeups : 2am and 6am then up for the day at 7.20am. both wakeups were quite hard - lots of distressed crying and both times I got him back to sleep (one minute BF then put in cot awake but soothing him) only for him to wake up again 15 minutes later and have to do it again.

Still, a big improvement.

I don't know when or whether to drop the nightfeeds though; I'm kinda hoping he'll just start sleeping through and I won't have to not offer IYSWIM. For the moment I'm still offering as it's over 30 degrees here so I think he's thirsty in the night. I could offer water but he loves water so I don't think that would stop him waking up!

jan as for the tiredness affecting everything and just getting so tired and upset at the thought of bedtimes/night well...to be honest I've been feeling like this since DS was 6 months. I do through phases of dispairing but then it gets slightly better and I feel ok.

Then it goes bad again and I'm crying with exhaustion again. I'm in a fairly good place at the moment as I feel that the bedtimes are a hundred times better and at the weekend I get to have a snooze smile It's usually at the end of the week that I'm flat out with tiredness.

jan2011 Mon 10-Sep-12 13:59:21

Its just learning how to deal with it isn't it and to be kind to yourself and take life a bit easier than if you were feeling100% i find. like its ok to just watch a movie all afternoon if ur just shattered! im glad ur in a better place at the minute.

re my dh putting her to sleep - its easier for him as we aren't living together anymore, so she is coming after having a bath at his mums, she falls asleep in the car, and he just transfers her to the cot asleep - done! he never faces her going in awake.

jan2011 Mon 10-Sep-12 20:22:35

don't know why this is taking so long for her to get it. tonight was so difficult too, i took her back downstairs for awhile after the first try, to get her more tired. then she was still hart to get down in the cot. its like she is expecting a mess about in the cot. and if i don't engage at alll with her and just let her do her thing, she gets really upset.

BartiiMus Tue 11-Sep-12 09:13:22

How long does she get upset for? The first night with DS he cried hard for 30 minutes. I so nearly caved but kept repeating to myself the "3 Cs" from AG : "calm, confident and the other one" (I can never remember it blush grin )

Now he's going down with only 5 minutes crying but still waking once in the night and for the day at 6am angry

How much does she move about during the day?

It ma be that she's not ready for this. DS would not have been ready for this even just a month ago.

jan2011 Tue 11-Sep-12 21:40:53

the thing is she is not crying. she is not really upset, she is more just messing about in the cot and whinging a bit at times. it just takes her ages of getting up and being laid down to finally wind down and go to sleep....she hasn't actually been crying for nights now. she moves about a good bit during the day, but she isn't walking yet and is almost there with it so maybe that will help get more energy out of her

RainbowBlue Wed 12-Sep-12 03:20:55

Hello all this sounds like my dd. currently been awake since 1.20am trying to get her back to sleepsad resorting to sleeping on her floor as she wakes every 45 mins. So tired feel like I'm turning into a monster sad. Wish she'd sleep as my husbands 3 yr old loud noisy niece will be here at 8 am for the whole day as MIL baby sits her.

I've tried this method and it just doesn't seem to work! She's just regressing even further, tonight ive been trying to get her to sleep since 7.30pm, it's now 3.20 am and she's waking every 45 bloody mins. She used to do this at 4 weeks oldsad

RainbowBlue Wed 12-Sep-12 03:21:26

Oh and she's 8 months now, teething and learning to crawl

BartiiMus Wed 12-Sep-12 10:43:43

Oh I feel your pain rainbow ! DS went through (horribly long) phases of waking every hour or less in the night.

DS was walking at 10 months and I really think that his quick physical development (from rolling, to sitting up, to crawling, to standing, to cruising, to walking all in a few months) had a huge negative impact on his sleep.

Have you tried co-sleeping just to get some more sleep or even just rest? I never wanted to co-sleep but found that it actually helped. I didn't sleep much better but just lying down all night was bliss.

Also, DS was rolling all over the place - so when in his cot he'd bump into the sides and wake up. In our bed (DH was relegated to a mattress on DS' floor!) DS could roll a lot further and in fact it meant he woke up less.

I still woke up a fair bit but like I said, could stay lying down which was great.

I can't remember when we started co-sleeping (and it was always part way through the night when I was fed up with getting up all the time and was on my knees with exhaustion) but we did it until DS was about 11 months and last week started this technique.

And it is working (especially at bedtime but not so great in the night yet). However I know for certain this would not have worked any early as he was so active in his sleep. Self-settling wasn't his main problem - it was waking up so often!

Now I can put him down and when he wakes 3, 4, 5 hours later he is still in the same position whereas before whenever he woke up 30, 40, 60 minutes later he was all over the place.

BartiiMus Wed 12-Sep-12 10:46:07

jan have you tried pushing bedtime back a bit later?

Or maybe just take a book in with you and let her mess about whilst you read? At least then you've something to take your mind off it?

Can't think of anything else I'm afraid. I always think I've found soething that works and two days later the goalposts have moved!

abadoo Fri 14-Sep-12 12:48:10

Gem, inspired by all the posts above (thanks lucid and all the others for the supportive posts), I decided to cut night feeds out slowly in preparation for (eventually) putting DS down awake. He proved surprisingly adaptable and went from waking every 90 mins or so to be boobed to sleep to sleeping up to 4 hours at a time grin (huge progress in my book) and only feeding once a night - this took 5 days all up shock. I managed to do this by leaning over him and shushing/singing/vaguely jiggling him as if rocking in his cot and, when he was hysterical a couple of times, getting him out, calming him down then putting back in for more shushing/singing/jiggling.

We're on holiday now so it's all gone down the gurgler till I get back to London next week (crying in a travel cot you can't really soothe properly in (and the need not to wake people in nearby rooms) has meant DS is now developing a rock-to-sleep complex, oh well!) but I will be done with the book by then and the plan is in place to start properly with no night feeds and hopefully DS will get the falling asleep in his cot bit hmm!

GEM33 Fri 14-Sep-12 21:32:21

abadoo thats amazing! once a night feed. thats something I can only dream about at the moment!!
Im ashamed to say that, I havent got round to starting the self settling yet. We have had a little progress. in that I have given medicine for reflux and also bought a sleeping bag and this combination seems to have caused a bit longer sleep early on. (still feedling to sleep). also managing to stay in the cot for most of the night. Ive started reading andrea grace book so I'll plough through as quick as i can to get my confidence up.
anyone got positive things to say about cranio osteopathy - im going to take dd for first app next week. we will try anything!!!!

abadoo Sat 15-Sep-12 18:54:41

Gem that's great that you're seeing progress, well done! I personally don't think there's any point in starting until you're ready yourself (and have a firm plan in mind), otherwise I've found I just give up in the night and go back to where I started and simply confuse my DS.

We use a sleeping bag and it was definitely better than faffing with tucking in blankets that only get kicked off. The holiday has thrown everything out of the window, as we're only at the cuddle in cot phase and I can't reach him in the travel cot properly, so I've given up and am rocking to sleep but I'll be right back to it once I get back to London.

Have tried cranio ost but not for ages... will be interested to see what others say about this.

Good luck!

CassieF83 Wed 27-Nov-13 11:59:09

Hi

My son is 7 months and sleeps from 7.30 to 6.30-7 without needing milk or cuddles he is also in his own room and has been since 4 months...HOWEVER he wakes up any where between 1 to 5 times a night crying as he wriggles so much some time when i go in he's upside down in the bed or stuck at the top of his bed diagonal once i move him back in position put his dummy back in and cover him back up he goes straight back to sleep. I know i can not stop him from moving but I need him to stop waking me up as it is sometimes very difficult for me to drift back to sleep as i have to get out of my bed and go into his bedroom. Ive even debated putting his cot back in my room!!! PLEASE HELP!!

LambChopsRarePlease Wed 27-Nov-13 12:30:42

Wow, just wow. I am aware this is a zombie thread but I have seen this woman on This Morning today.

I was pretty disgusted to be honest.

AidanTheRevengeNinja Wed 27-Nov-13 15:40:21

Why LambChops ? I didn't see her on this morning but I have her book and it's helped us a lot. It doesn't seem particularly controversial or extreme.

cantthinkofagoodone Wed 27-Nov-13 16:01:34

Cassie. Ditch the dummy! It's become a negative sleep prop x

catellington Wed 04-Dec-13 23:23:57

Lambchops that wasn't Andrea Grace. It was Katherine something. Yes rather strong views! 18mo to CIO etc.

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