I don't know if I want advice or just a bit of a moan. I'm fed up.

Dd is 3.
Ds is 1.

We have no routine whatsoever, I just let the children sleep when they need to.

We all wake up between 5 and 6.
By 9.00 ds is starting to get tired and cranky. He goes to sleep between 9 and 10 and is generally down for 2 hours.
So, he wakes between 11 and 12, by which time dd is getting tired and cranky.
We squeeze in lunch and then dd goes down for a nap between 12 and 1.
She sleeps for about 3 hours or sometimes more.
So, she wakes some time between 3 and 5, by which time ds is tired and cranky and ready for his second nap.
He sleeps for about an hour, or a bit more, by which time it is time for supper and baths and bed and we've done nothing all day but have naps.

Obviously we do go out, but only by cutting short a nap (usually ds's because he is less vile when tired than dd is). I feel guilty because he is 1 and he needs his naps and should be able to have a nice sleep in his cot during the day, but more often than not he gets both his naps in his car seat en route to somewhere. Sometimes he only gets 20 minutes in the morning and nothing else for the rest of the day. He sleeps dreadfully at night and this is probably why.

So, we are home waiting for one or other of them to wake up, or out and about with at least one grumpy and overtired child.

Once they are tired and cranky there is no point going out because they always fall asleep in the car and are furious if they are woken up too soon.

Another factor is that it is quite an effort to get either of them to sleep. I know that sounds contradictory to the above, but when they need to sleep (and I mean need to sleep) it often takes me over an hour to get them down.

It doesn't help that ds is going through a really clingy phase and while he's awake he has to be touchingmeeverysinglemomentoftheday. And pinching me. And biting me. I am covered in bruises. And hanging off my clothes. Dd does this too. I want to shout at everyone to fucking get off me PLEASE sometimes. But obviously I don't [pollyanna emoticon]. And dd is, well, she's 3 with everything that entails. And she's jealous of her little brother.

I'm not really talking about sleep and napping any more. I just feel if I could get naps sorted so they napped together or dd dropped her nap, other things would be easier.

Oh, I feel your pain.

We now have slightly more of a routine but it does basically involve being in for lunch from half 11am and for as long as DS2 will sleep. (he's 10m, DS2 is early 3 so similar ages to yours!)

Am trying to get DS2 to have one long sleep in the middle of the day so we can work around that. (DS1 has abandoned his daytime sleep, was bereft when that happened.) It isn't going to plan at all at the moment though and it is limiting. I know routine's not for everyone but I really need to know that there will be a point in the day where it will be less hard work, and I can sit down and quietly read with DS1.

And I'm in the same boat re the clingy pinching biting thing too. Does yours pinch you right on the bingo wing? Fricking agony.

I hope someone will be able to offer some constructive advice, I've just got solidarity I'm afraid!

(Also I relate to overtired kids who won't sleep at all all day, or wake up in an evil temper. Not all kids are like this and people can't relate if their kids aren't. DS1 was an absolute bugger, would go 12 hours without sleep at 3m, would scream blue murder in the car - he was hideous. I put him on a GF schedule at 4m, (or at least he slotted effortlessly into one with no CC, they won't all do it, DS2 is totally different) and he became instantly happier...)

I'll take solidarity!

I know everyone says to hang on to naps as long as possible, but it would actually be easier if dd could get through the day without one (and maybe she'd sleep better at night too).

Yes! Bingo wings or boobs are favourite to pinch. Thighs preferred for biting.

You start off by saying that you have no routine and just let the children sleep when they need to but by the end you say that when they need to sleep they can be a nightmare to get to go to sleep.

The reason I point this out is that if you tried to introduce some sort of a routine, you might find that it anticipates when they do genuinely need to sleep and thus makes them less grumpy/overtired. Thus an hour between 9 and 10 for DS with one to one time for DD followed by an activity (park/library) followed by lunch at 12. Then two hours for the both of them between 1 and 3. Then another activity (painting/stories/playing) before tea at 5 and then bath/bedtime routine at 6 for bed at 7 (routine made up out of thin air - obv whatever suits your day ) But I think you need to be not scared to wake them during the day after a certain length of nap.

At 3, your DD shouldn't need a 3 hr nap in the day time and it seems to be this that is really crippling your day, together with them not napping together in the afternoon. You might have to be quite disciplined at first but they should settle into it quite quickly.

When DS1 dropped his nap I started putting him down an hour earlier at night instead. It was hell at the beginning and he still gets cranky around 3, but it is easier now, and less constricting...

I can't really advise on the whole problem - but if you could solve part of it I think it might help hugely. And I would tackle your DD first. I would brace myself for a hellish week and not allow her a nap - she will be diabolical, so expect this! She probably will continue waking early BUT with any luck in a few days that will start shifting and she starts to cope without the nap by having a longer night. This would remove that huge 3 hour chunk from your afternoons. DS (now 3.1) had to be forced to drop his nap, and it took a while to settle in to his new routine. He will now still often nap for 30 min in the car in the afternoon or on the sofa in front of telly if he really needs it. Then you can concentrate on whether your DS' napping is really a problem or not, I suspect you will then find not. Hope it works out.

What time is bedtime? How old is the youngest you say 1 but is he a little 1 or a nearly 2? And do you want help to put them into a routine or at least a better sleeping routine or are you just having a rant. Lots of questions but will help if I can.

I would also thinki that a 1 yr old could go with just 1 long sleep in the afternoon sometime soon? might be helpful to just get up and get out of the house, get back for an early lunch then let the two of them sleep for eg 2 hours 12.30-2.30 then you have the afternoon free. A 3 hour sleep seems a lot for a 3 year old. They might start waking later in hte day maybe? Similarly I would think the 3 year old would be dropping her sleep totally soon? Means for an earlier bed time and you might wat to take it slowly but ime most kids dont need it so much any more once they are 3- esp if you want them in bed by 7 (which i love and look forward to each day!)

I can give you some advice but be warned it is routine based in parts so you may noy like it!

DD had no routine, and was a nightmare would only sleep on me so i made BIG CHANGES and ds was more routined from birth and she ahs become more routined

They wake between 6.30-7.30 (though in this heat has been varying due to not getting comfy to sleep at night)

DS if required has a nap at 9.30/10 normally not in his cot but in car/buggy

They have lunch and naos after 12,30 ish, at home they both get put in their room, if dd is claiming not to be tired she is allowed to read books in bed, she will then either fall asleep or i will let her up after an hour ish (this took rtime to happen she didnt use to be apart from me, she now has a bed full of soft toys and talks to them and is happy)

I get them up at 2.30, or occassionally if they are going to be staying up a bit late 3

This way they will go to bed 6.30-7.30 ish as they didnt nap to late and if i use their nap time to get ready rather than sleep we can do something in both the morning and afternoon if we want

If not AT HOME i put them to sleep in the car at that time or ds in the buggy and wont take them out the car till minimum 2ish

dd can go a days without naps but could never go a full week without a nap iyswim

if my kids are overtired the dont sleep at night and it isnt too retrictive, i let dd nap till 3 yesterday and she was up till 9 as we went out for a special occassion she is now napping as is tired but should be back on schedule tomight no drama