12 week old constant early evening waking (7-11pm). FATEdestiny around?!

[crystalgall]

DD 12 weeks is changing every week as expected. We went from all daytime naps in arms and refusal to sleep on back to sleeping on tummy in bed (not great I know but it was a revelation). Now she has 3-4 naps a day ranging from 30-2 hrs sometimes!

However evening has gone tits up. I used to be able t get her down from 8ish-11pm dream feed. She used to be rocked to sleep with dummy and put down.

However she has been able to settle for naps with just the dummy and sometimes for nights too.

The last week it's all
Gone to pot. She goes down earlier around 7.30 but is up constantly wih in 20 mins and usually 10-30 mins on and off until dream feed at 10.30-11. It is exhausting. We just spend all evening up and down.

She's quiet as long as we pat her bum constantly but I can hear her sucking dummy furiously and generally restless. She doesn't seem capable f going off in to a deep sleep.

Nights are varied. She can go from 11 to 2-3am and then between 6-8am.

I read abou night wakings but hardly anything out there about this early evening nonsense!

Any advice?

FATE i see you a lot on these boards. Help please!

[crystalgall]

Bumping.

[Plateofcrumbs]

Not very helpful but my DS had a pattern of early evening waking a like this, and it gradually got better on its own.

[daisydalrymple]

I'm just wondering is she bf or ff? Cluster feeding in the early evening is really common, especially with a growth spurt at this stage. My 3 have all done cluster feeds through the evening at this stage, to the point where it's sometimes easier to keep them up with you and they nap in their chair in between. But with ff I don't know if this is a stage when you increase oz of milk.

With bf it soon settles down once the cluster feeding has upped your supply.

May not be this of course, but just a thought. (Dc3 at 14mo still has unsettled evenings mind you, but that's a whole other thread I have no energy to start )

[nottheop]

She could be a little overtired. How long is her awake time? I'd be aiming for 80-90 minutes. Don't worry about a strict bedtime just more when it's 90 minutes after the last time.

What's your bedtime routine?

[Feeches]

My dd is 15 weeks and is like this. Her sleep was pretty good until about 3 weeks ago and it went to pot. She caught a bad cold and is very congested. Last night was the best night since. It maybe a blip but I put in one of those Calpol vapour plugs plus I have gradually moved her bedtime to a bit later. I facilitated this by taking her for a good long walk in the pram every late afternoon where she generally sleeps for a couple of hours.

I have also stopped putting her down with the dummy as she would spit it out constantly and then fuss for it back.

It's probably too early for me to say what the success behind last night was but at least it gives you some things to consider.

[FATEdestiny]

FATEdestiny around?! - 3.15pm not an ideal time to find me - school picking up time. They are all in bed now though, and am on my second glass of wine. Life is good. Anyhoo, I digress...

nottheop is right. Watch awake time to avoid over tiredness.

I wrote a huge post earlier that seems relevant here. It is about the changes in sleep/feeding that happen around 3-4 months (and the so-called month sleep regression, that often comes early and is not a regression at all).

Many changes happen around 12 weeks - it is just after baby leaves the newborn phase. Basically as long as baby is fed and well then sleep is very easy for the first 3 months or so, relatively speaking. Then suddenly everything changes and sleep becomes hard work.

[NickyEds]

Hate to say this op but we're still struggling with this at 6 months! We implemented a 7-7.30 bedtime (upstairs in our room) about a month ago- before that she was downstairs on me, cluster feeding at first then just needing to be on me. We're generally having to go up and re settle her every 20-30 minutes from 7 until 10.30ish when we go up. I've got another thread about it with some good suggestions on it (white noise etc)- "Desperately need my evenings back" it's called.

[WiIdfire]

My 6 month old doesn't sleep in the early evening. However instead of spending the evening resettling him, he just stays up. So he has bedtime routine from 6-7, naps 7-8 ish, then comes down for a bit and goes to bed at the same time as us between 10-12. He then sleeps through until about 8.30. Don't see the point of constant settling if he doesn't actually want to sleep, so although we dont have evenings alone, we still have some family time. Hope he decides to go to bed properly from 7 at some point though...

[NickyEds]

Sadly on nights when she's just refused to go back to sleep and we've brought her downstairs she's had a screaming over tired nightmare baby in the morning. Ds (just turns 2) is up at 6 and dd more or less waked up when I leave the bed so she can't sleep in!

[WiIdfire]

Fair enough, I only have the one!

[FATEdestiny]

I don't really see any benefit in establishing an upstairs 'bedtime' until evenings move on from being a continuation of daytime eat, awake, sleep cycles. Once I'd seen some consistency in going to sleep and staying asleep all evening without waking downstairs, only then would I start establishing an upstairs bedtime. Because that should mean I'd have no evening re-settles to do.

For us, that happened around 5 months old. But it can be anywhere around that age, sometimes sooner and sometimes later.

[crystalgall]

Thanks all. She is FF.
Thanks for the link FATE. I'm doing a lot of what you said in that post too.


Well tonight I gave up and brought her downstairs after she slept from 7.30-8. She didn't want to be awake however and ended up having to be rocked in her bouncer constantly in the dark to stay asleep. We took it in turns so the other could do stuff. She woke screaming at 10 wouldnt drink much from the bottle and is now back asleep on the bed hopefully for the rest of the night apart from feeding wake ups.

Honestly I think I might end up as pp said and give up on early evenings and just bring her down and rock in bouncer. I can do that whilst watching tv as long as someone is always there to bounce. The minute it stops she wakes so I know she's not really in a deep sleep which worries me more.

[crystalgall]

Sorry FATE. Just seen your latest message afte I posted above.

How would you establish the going to sleep and staying asleep downstairs before moving it upstairs? Would it be in your arms/the sofa/the bouncer?

And in doing so you wouldn't be concerned about the not being able to go to sleep on their own aspect? Because this is the bit I'm worries about. I can sit and bouncer her for 4 hrs if I have to downstairs but then will she be able to go to sleep on her own in a cot upstairs after 2 months of that?

[crystalgall]

And why is 11pm the magic time where she will sleep continuously until next feed at 2-3 but not from 7-11?
I know there's no real answer. Am just wondering...

[FATEdestiny]

I just wait for baby to establish it.

I have always used bouncy chair and dummy for all downstairs naps until they extend. I'm quite vocal on this, so useful is the bouncer in extending naps.

I like EASY routine throughout the daytime until naps extend (Eat, Activity, Sleep, You time) on a 2-2.5h cycle. So this involves limiting awake time to 60-90 minutes and very regular feeds.

EASY cycles start first thing in the morning and continue right through until I go to bed. At every naptime wake-up I would initially try to re-settle baby back to sleep with gentle bounces and dummy re-insertion. Often this wasn't happening. As baby gets older, re-settling gets easier and more successful and as such baby starts sleeping through one sleep cycle and into another - marking the start of naps extending.

When you start "forcing" nap extending by consistent and effective re-settling, eventually less and less re-settling is needed until no resettling is needed for baby to stay asleep for longer (for daytime naps this is). This is how I have always got naps to extend.

So you are asking about evenings, in my view evenings and having a 'proper bedtime' is all tied into daytime naps moving from short frequent naps to fewer, longer naps.

My EASY routine would continue all day and into the evening. At anytime between 6pm and 8pm when baby was awake, I would call that 'bedtime' and do the bedtime routine (bath, massage, PJs on) but then be back downstairs with me in the bouncy chair for another EASY cycle. Therefore baby would have another short, 45 minute nap followed by a feed and some awake time. Then I'd go to bed and take baby up with me when baby was ready for next sleep - so night sleep would start, in the cot in my bedroom.

This ^ is how things are for us from newborn. When EASY routine naps start extending (for us this was around 5 months old) and I would find that I was doing 'bedtime', putting baby to sleep in bouncy chair but baby wasn't waking up again. It got to the point where I was waiting for baby to wake for a feed so that I could go up to bed (taking baby with me). Or worse, I was having to wake a sleeping baby to carry her upstairs to bed when I wanted to go to bed.

So once this point came, where baby just stopped waking up in the evening, that's when I decided to start settling baby to sleep in the cot upstairs at 'bedtime', as part of bedtime routine. I wouldn't have bothered with separate bedtime for baby if it meant I was up and down the stairs all night re-settling. I value my evenings too much!

[crystalgall]

This is really interesting thanks. Will go over it again properly tomorrow. I should be sleeping right now but can't go down, much like the baby earlier!

[FATEdestiny]

And why is 11pm the magic time where she will sleep continuously until next feed at 2-3 but not from 7-11?

Many babies do have their biggest chunk of sleep when first going to sleep. This annoys lots of parents because they would rather the big chunks of sleep were when they were also asleep, so from 11pm onwards rather than 7pm onwards. Babies are all different.

And in doing so you wouldn't be concerned about the not being able to go to sleep on their own aspect? Because this is the bit I'm worries about.

You're over thinking it, is this your first baby?

Baby is 12 weeks old, she just needs to learn how to go to sleep and how to stay asleep. She will need help with this, babies don't just lie down, close eyes and go to sleep. So there are loads of ways parents help their babies go to sleep. Many are very hands-on (rocking, breastfeeding to sleep). Other ways are a little more independent - bouncer allows baby to learn to fall asleep separately from you, not in your arms. Likewise dummy. Both great for teach baby independent sleeping.

Simultaneously establishing night time sleep habits in the cot means that baby also gets used to being settled to sleep in the cot. I favour the 3-sided cot butted up to my bed for this, so that I could cuddle into the cot to settle but without needing to pick baby up. I also like swaddle and dummy for night times with a young baby.

So baby is getting used to being settled to sleep while lying in the cot. And is also getting plenty of regular sleep on EASY routine and is learning independent daytime naps that are extending.

A manual bouncy chair (as opposed to these electric ones) means you can control the amount of bouncing. Early weeks baby might need lots and lots of constant bouncing to stay asleep. But you can control this. Start slowing down the bouncing then stopping when baby is asleep. Then bounce less vigorously to get baby to sleep. Bounce less and less, with a view to gradually reduce dependency.

All the time this is happening, baby is also learning to settle in the cot at night. When naps eventually extend, the bouncy chair is ditched and the (now longer, less frequent) daytime naps then move to become naps in the cot upstairs.

[crystalgall]

Not first baby! DS self settles
From 6 weeks and slept through from 4 months...I would put him in wide awake and he just chatted off to sleep for all naps and bedtime. He was an amazing sleeper and still is aged 4. I though I was amazing...haha. But of course it was just pure dumb luck

[FATEdestiny]

Absolutely. I was blessed with a star sleeper with my third child. Like you, I thought I'd cracked it, knew what I was doing (finally). Then DC4 came along...

Hee hee. These things are sent to try us.

[NickyEds]

Dd did settle absolutely beautifully down stairs, sleeping all evening....as long as i was holding her!! We've only had to re settle her twice this evening so hoping she might be getting better......a bit

[crystalgall]

Well DD went down a dream at 7.30. Drowsy and fell asleep by herself happily. And then was up at 8.

Tried to resettle until 8.30 and then gave up and brought her down where she played (!) until 9.15 then went in bouncy chair where she slept very restlessly (ie we couldn't stop rocking at all) until 10.15 when I was about to give her the bottle when she suddenly went into a deep sleep! First time that's hapenned in the bouncer. We've left her in there while I get ready for bed hopefully until 11.

I think this may be the way to go everyday. Maybe her bedtime just isnt until 10? And until then she just needs short naps?

[crystalgall]

Also she won't sleep facing up in bouncer. We have to put her right on her side with her face almost all the way in. I know she would prefer on her tummy like she is in bed but I'm too scared she will suffocate in the bouncer like that!

[nottheop]

I had a tummy sleeper and used to put him tummy down in the pram - got some funny looks when out and about but he went straight over like that.

[crystalgall]

Another horrible evening. Is now 8.30 and have been trying to get DD to sleep
Since 7. Am feeling angry with her which I hate.


Doing all the bedtime routine bottle sleepiness put down and she is screaming within minute. Do shh/pat and she seems fine and then 5 mins later screaming again. I've been in 4 times already and then gave up and she's back in the bouncer again on her tummy.

She's not really sleeping just eyes closed and wiggling around.

Am so frustrated. Why won't she just go to sleep?!?
I know I just have to accept the way she is but my PND is maki g me lose all perspective and the fact I can't control this is making the PND worse.