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Gradual retreat

14 replies

Cb148 · 23/08/2015 22:01

Hi all,

I'm planning on starting gradual retreat with my 10 month old DD this weekend.

I'm just looking for advice really from those who have done it. Would like to put some kind of plan in place to concentrate on as I can't bear her crying.

Dreading it as she has co slept from birth (we have a co sleeper cot next to the bed but mostly she prefers to be right next to me for all night bf access!)

The problem is that she physically cannot get back to sleep without me bf her and she wakes A LOT. I don't even count how much but we are talking every 30 mins - 2 hours absolute max. So we are both tired & I feel guilty & sorry for her because she does seem so tired during the day. In the morning she starts to cry & moan after about half an hour of being awake so could obviously do with better sleep.

I don't even bother trying to give her breakfast anymore, she is never interested, she must be full from the all night feeding marathon. Thing is, i wouldn't feel comfortable night weaning because she doesn't actually eat loads during the day so sometimes she does seem genuinely hungry. So how can I get her out of her cot sometimes & not others? I suppose I'm just hoping she will start to wake less for feeds & will learn to eat more solids during the day.

I think I'm dreading it so much because I'm not sure that it will even work. I can't imagine her ever just lying down & going to sleep by herself with no bf. What if she just cries for hours & hours? Should I encourage her to take a dummy or will that just create more problems?

Is the idea that I put her down in her cot awake & not get her out unless she is really upset, and in theory she will eventually just lie down & sleep? Im thinking I will sleep on floor next to her cot (in her own bedroom) for first couple of nights & then maybe sit on a chair next to cot maybe from 3rd night.

Sorry for the ramble just hoping someone can help/advise as I'm feeling sad & guilty about the whole thing. I think she will find it traumatic & won't understand why I'm not picking her up etc.

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FATEdestiny · 23/08/2015 22:20

Slow down

Far too much focus on "withdrawal" here and not nearly enough focus on "gradual"

The key to gradual withdrawal is that each change causes no additional distress. So no more crying than you have now. If there is more crying, your change is too great and not gradual enough, so needs a rethink.

I can't imagine her ever just lying down & going to sleep by herself with no bf

Woah, don't even think about that yet. It is a long way away and will set your expectations all wrong.

She co-sleeps and breastfeeds to sleep, so step one might be one or the other of these. So is your first focus to be cuddling and cosleeping to sleep but not BF to sleep? Or still BF to sleep but not cosleeping?

How about you lean yourself right into the bedside cot (I assume with one side off) and continue to BF to sleep but with baby in the cot? Then you can work on extracting yourself so that baby sleeps in her space not your bed.

Or

Keep cosleeping. Have baby right next to you, cuddled and snuggled. But keep a top on. BF to nearly asleep then pull out before she is asleep. Lots of patting and tickling, stroking hand shushing. Plenty of care and gentle attention to encourage the final drift into sleep.

Is the idea that I put her down in her cot awake & not get her out unless she is really upset

That is not Gradual Withdrawal.

It does sound like a reasonable sleep training method if you can manage the distress. I don't know what the name of that sleep training method is, but it is not gradual withdrawal.

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Cb148 · 25/08/2015 14:59

Thanks for taking the time to reply FATE

I should have said in my original post that I'm planning to use the old thread 'what worked for us' as a kind of rough plan as to how I should play it, and in that thread the idea was to put baby in cot & soothe if you need to but mostly to sit next to the cot & not physically get baby to sleep, obviously breaking whatever sleep association baby has.

I would probably prefer to do something more gradual as I'm pretty sure DD is going to be really upset which I find hard to deal with, she loves bf to sleep. But the problem I have is that I don't feel like I have much time to make some 'progress'...my 4 yr old son sleeps in the next room and he is a very light sleeper. He is away camping with his dad this wkend. I would rather do this before he has to go back to pre-school in a few weeks, he struggles if he doesn't get enough sleep. And I feel that no matter how slow I take things with DD the second she realises I'm not going to feed her to sleep she will start to cry. Not really prepared to do cc or cio so staying in the room is about the best solution I can think of.

My biggest concern is that she is so used to feeding to sleep and co-sleeping that it just won't work & she just wont get it, that I'll put her through it & gain nothing. I'm worried that she'll be so distraught & it'll go on for ages. I dont want her to lose trust in me or not be the same afterwards!

Suppose I'm just looking for some advice & reassurance that it will be OK! Wont have anyone here to help & tell me to be strong!

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FATEdestiny · 26/08/2015 11:49

I did think of the 'what worked for us' thread when I read your post. I hope it goes well for you, seems like a very sensible option.

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Jellylorum · 26/08/2015 19:08

I did something similar to what you're planning and it wasn't was bad as I'd feared! You do have to be prepared for a bit of crying but at ten months I felt it was probably ok to try. I tried as much as possible to soothe in the cot, but did lift out for cuddles a few times when very upset. I patted and used white noise. To start with I just concentrated on bedtime and then co slept from first waking, and the wakings did decrease after not feeding to sleep. Then I built up to not feeding so much overnight. Good luck, even if you don't totally crack it I'm sure you will be able to make some progress.

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Piazzapiola · 27/08/2015 19:31

Not read other posts but will tell you what I did.

DS1 - after 14mo of waking and bfing every 1.5/2hrs (he was in a cot in his room so I'd get out of bed, feed in a chair, put him back down, collapse back to my bed) I'd had enough and decided to nightwean. I did a mix of Dr Jay Gordon (Google him) and a thread on here called 'what worked for us'.
I picked 11pm - 5am and first night I fed at bedtime and put him down awake. He faffed for about 45mins then plonked into his tummy and fell asleep. When he woke in the night I'd pick him up and cuddle back to sleep but not feed. After a few nights of that I didn't pick him up but sshh/patted/sang/hugged in the cot til he put himself back to sleep. I remember some crying especially in the night but really it wasn't bad. I remember thinking at the time that I should have done it months earlier given how well he was responding. Within 10-14days he was waking maybe once before 11pm say then sleeping til 5/6am. Truth be told I never really retreated very far and we were either patting him, holding hand, lying on floor, lying by door, lying on landing, sitting on steps outside.... FOR MONTHS!!! He's now 3.1yo and we still poke our head round the door while he's dropping off to say a last goodnight, but he's pretty much slept through (more or less....) since that first round of sleep training at 14mo. With the odd too off training required as and when Wink

DS2 is 9.5mo and although I vowed not to make the same 'mistakes', here I am bfing all night and bed sharing. I tried putting him down awake in his cot and lying on a pull out bed when he was about 8.5mo and it was a disaster. He cried and cried and he simply couldn't be comforted so I gave up after 2hrs and fed him to sleep.
About two weeks ago so when he was just over 9mo it got so bad at bed time that he was simply refusing to go to bed in his cot and he's wake whenever I put him down. Plus he was crawling so I wasn't happy bedsharing.
So I dragged the mattress off the spare bed, fed, put him down then lay next to him awake. For about 45mins I kept returning him to the middle of the bed as he kept trying to go off exploring but he eventually got bored and flopped around a bit and after about an hour in total rolled over and fell asleep! I did that for 5 nights and after about the fourth he slept through the evening for the first time since he was 3mobths old.

I then moved to putting him awake in his cot that is removed one side off and put the pull out bed along side. First night took a good 1.5hts with some crying but I knew he could put himself to sleep so I just kept cuddling and reassuring and putting him back down on his back and eventually he fell asleep. He now falls asleep in 20/30 mins without a fuss.
My next step is to Night wean him and not feed him between 11pm and 5am and just cuddle back to sleep. Once I've done that and he's presumably not waking as much or at least not needing me when he wKes I'll put a bed guard up on the cot and finally the side back and then move from the pull out bed to a chair by the door etc..... And maybe one day I'll go back to sleeping in my own bed!!! That's the plan anyway.

I hadn't intended this to be so long. The only thing I can say is that you never how it'll go once you start. Also, start small pick one thing you want to change and go from there.
Good luck

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Cb148 · 27/08/2015 22:04

Thank you jellylorum and piazza, that's helpful. I'll Google jay Gordon.

Starting on Saturday night so I would like to have a clear plan in my head of what I'm gonna do!

One thing that I'm not sure of is night feeds. I'm worried that I'll confuse her by feeding her sometimes and refusing to get her out the cot at other times. Don't feel ready to night wean as she feeds so regularly at night at the moment. With some luck she'll stop waking so much & night weaning will be my next step.

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Piazzapiola · 28/08/2015 17:32

I'm giving loads of mixed messages... Fall asleep on your own at bedtime but I'll feed you to sleep during the night... I think they can cope with it as long as bedtime is always the same and night wakings always the same. It's still consistent.

I'm not really ready to have him in his cot as I quite enjoy bed sharing but I can't risk him crawling off the bed. When we were in the mattress in the floor when I first started this I woke to find him sitting up across the room from me so there goes my theory that is always wake if he moved in the bed...

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Cb148 · 29/08/2015 21:40

Piazza - That's the trouble with co-sleeping isnt it, when they become mobile. DD has actually crawled and fallen off our bed which is quite high, luckily she was OK but could have easily been worse, so every time I hear her wake up on monitor in the evening I've been racing up the stairs as fast as I can. For her sake as much as my own I feel like I should at least try & help her sleep better because she does seem so much happier after a decent nap. I'll probably regret it though because it means I actually have to get out of bed now that shes in her own room! Plus I absolutely love cuddling up to her & so feel a bit sad about that.

Well for anyone who is interested I started this tonight. Shes asleep, took one hour, but how long she'll be asleep for is anyones guess. She usually wakes exactly 30 mins later so she'll probably be up again in a minute. :(

I'm not sure how it went really. I couldnt bear to hear her upset, so I know the idea is to let them fall asleep completely by themselves but I kept putting her down on her front and stroking, shushing, patting, singing and eventually she was calm. So not really sure if it will eliminate any night wakings as technically I've still helped her go to sleep, just not with bf. I suppose I did more of a shush pat type thing. Perhaps I should have gone in with more of an iron will.

We shall see!

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Piazzapiola · 01/09/2015 08:24

How did it go?
I think it's fine to ssshhh pat etc. By not bfing to sleep you're already one step ahead that you were the previous night. It just might be more gradual that's all

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SueGeneris · 01/09/2015 11:39

I'm another co sleeper with a feed to sleep bf baby who is now mobile at 8 months. He wakes 1-3 times but settles fairly well next to me.

I've just made the decision to skip the cot stage and ordered a low single bed from the futon company. So that can be 'his' bed, I can put him down there and go to him when he wakes in the night. I'm putting it next to our bed and will baby proof our room.

Then I'll work on stopping feeding to sleep! First I need to get him going to bed in the evening instead of at 10pm!

He's my third and last baby and I absolutely LOVE sleeping next to him so I feel sad about him having his own bed but couldn't face putting him in the cot and especially not having to put him back in the cot in the night!

I weaned DC2 off feeding to sleep at about 14 months because it wasn't helping her go to sleep but was just habit. She did cry a lot though - even though I was sitting with her stroking her and singing to her.

I always tell myself with changes like this that they get very upset because it's a change from all they have ever known but conversely they are so young it only takes a short time to change a habit.

Good luck to everyone!

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Cb148 · 01/09/2015 21:50

It's going quite well so far thanks piazza! Mostly I think I was just worried about whether she'd 'get it', what with feeding to sleep so often & being used to sleeping next to me with my nipple in her mouth most of the night! And worried whether it would really upset her & she would be sad during the day. But actually, after that first night when it took me an hour to settle her she has taken to it so well & barely cries at all, just falls asleep (so far anyway, I'm asking for trouble saying that arent I!)

Don't get me wrong it's not been some quick fix cure like I imagine cc and cio probably are but its certainly helping her to go longer at night.

Currently on night 4, she went down around 7pm exhausted because she hasn't napped too well today and woke up about 9.15, I fed her, put her back in her cot & she just went straight back to sleep so we'll see how tonight goes. I think I may work on feeding less in the night soon. If she cries at all when I put her in her cot its only for minute if that. I just lean over the cot & pat her bum, shush, sing, stroke etc. Night 2 was a miracle...down at 7, awake at midnight, then

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Cb148 · 01/09/2015 21:53

Sorry posted too soon!

Fed at midnight & 4am and then she was awake for the day at 6.30am. Best nights sleep in a very long time! Last night wasn't too great tho & we'll see how tonight goes.

Think it's definitely gonna be a work in progress but I feel much better now I've started & I know shes not too upset by it.

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Cb148 · 01/09/2015 22:06

SueGeneris - the little single bed for your ds is a really lovely idea. And its so nice having them close so I don't blame you at all for keeping him in your room for a bit longer, especially if he's to be your last.

I think part of the reason I felt so sad about starting this sleep training is that dh doesn't seem to want any more babies so she is likely to be my last, which I'm feeling very sad about. So I didn't want her to leave my side. But at the same time I know I have to try & help her sleep better, for her sake as well as mine. Shes so overtired all the time.

Feeling a little sad because its feeling like the end of an era for me. My ds is 4 next week and feels like he is a proper little boy now, and DD isn't a little baby now, is in her own cot in her own room, looks like she may walk soon & I'm in the last month of my maternity leave, am worried how she'll cope when I have to go back to work. And sad that I may never experience all this again :(

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SueGeneris · 06/09/2015 09:30

It's a hard stage to say goodbye to especially when you'd like to have more. It's hard work but short lived and such a precious time.

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