getting down about ds's daytime naps - please help

[amijee]

Hi there

My ds is 15 weeks and has never been a great day napper ( no more than 2 hrs day max) Recently, however, it is becoming intolerable as he refuses to sleep anywhere other than in my lap or lying cradled next to me. And even then he sleeps only 30 mins in the morning and an hour at lunchtime.

I guess the bad habit started as we were away visiting relatives and everyone wanted to hold him...even when asleep. Also, i've been trying to get him to sleep longer in the mornings so sometimes bringing him into bed with me around 5.30 or 6am.

He has a very good bed time routine and is alseep as soon as he has had his bath and wakes 2-3 times for feeding but goes down in his crib without too much difficulty. The day is so much harder - he seems to want to be stimulated all the time and yet if we left him without sleeping he is very tired and cranky.

I'm starting to get very down about things as I feel as if he is permanantly attached to me - either with feeding, soothing or sleeping. To top it all, i'm supposed to go back to work in a mth and this is making me even more stressed.

I've tried vibrating chair, car, stroller - he screams whenever he is put in any of them when tired. I'm thinking about getting a swing - but realise i'm not doing much to encourage good sleep habits.

Up until now, i've been reluctant to let him cry in any way as i think he is so young..but now i'm not so sure. We all just need to get some rest and sleep!

[sunflower73]

Hi - I have similar problems with my DS, goes to sleep fine at night but won't let me put him down to sleep in the day. Mine only sleeps for 20 mins at a time but then gets grumpy later in the day. Have you tried making his room really dark so he feels like its night time?
I found out by accident that if I put my hairdryer on he immediately stops crying and falls asleep - its like some kind of miracle! So I sometimes use that to get him to sleep in his crib in the day (although I still don't know how to get him to stay asleep for longer - and we'll have a huge electricity bill!)
How long do you give him when he's crying? When we put ours in his car seat he absolutely hates it and screams his head off, but after about five minutes he's quite happy.

[CGJ]

No solutions I'm afraid just a stressed Mummy. J v good night time sleeper but since two weeks away travelling around has refused to sleep in day. Max. sleep 1 hour and then v tired and not eating properly at bedtime. Screams in cot even after controlled crying and popping in shushing and stroking every 10 mins. Happier in pram but still reluctant to sleep. Any suggestions? Have I started bad habits by doing controlled crying then giving in? Has he won? Should I leave him longer? any suggestions gratefully received!

[popeye123]

Hi,
Sounds a familiar...
Firstly, calm down - the more you are desperate for him to sleep the more he'll sense somethings wrong and it may agitate him more.

Are you trying to put him down when you think he should be tired or when he starts to give you some cues? Try to get to him before he gets overtired.
Have a nap routine similar to his bedtime one so he knows to start winding down.
Mine is..while holding DD (9mths) so she's aware of whats going on..

• Pull curtains half closed (some would say shut them altogether)
  
• Turn on lullaby CD very low
  
• Change nappy..talking softly
  
• Put her in her sleeping bag
  
• Feed her
  
• Put her down sleepy and lay favourite toy next to her
  
• if she grizzles just rub her tummy/back gently and try to run away as seeing me loitering makes her cry more (she's crafty)
  
• i do go back and comfort her if needs be but try to keep it to a minimum.
  
  You could try a spot of massage to start off with to really help him unwind.
  
  Took me AGES to work this out, it drove me mental in the meantime.
  TO start off with she'd fight like mad, probably because she was overtirred. I didn't leave her to cry, I'd just give in and take her out but if she wasn't too upset (just cross) I'd leave her there just so she started getting used to be in the cot at roughly the same time each day. But, over time I think the message has gotten through - its just a case of trying to get them into the habit. Sleeping bag helps I think. I don't put her in sleepsuit just strip her trousers off maybe so she doesn't get too hot.
  Only just starting given her a toy and she grabs it and dozes off - its not even a toy that I've made a big deal about, doesn't smell of me or anything - its just really fluffy. She looked at it, laughed and now its her best friend!
  I'm also much better at knowing when she needs to doze and don't leave it too long (or start too early). I know roughly what time she'll need to nap but do take into account what time she got up and how she's acting.
  I know feeding her isn't the best thing to do at nap/bed time (just gone from BF to bottle) but its what works so I'm not going to beat myself about it anymore. I couldn't go to sleep hungry so why should she!
  
  I used to go for a walk in the pushchair just round the corner and slip back as soon as she went to sleep. Thought that if I could get her used to sleeping at roughly the same time each day then I'd fight the battle of the cot later. Now I try to make sure that she has at least one nap in the cot each day, the other tends to be in pushchair or car. She only tends to do 30-45 mins twice a day. I'd like her to go for longer but as they get older they amuse themselves more so that helps to get things done. Thats normally enough for her but I do have to keep an eye on her and bring bedtime forward if needs be.
  
  Lastly, don't try to do much at once. You might be getting on his nerves. Try to be consistent in what you do each day, just like you do at nightime - he'll get used to it.
  
  When you go back to work who's looking after him?

[amijee]

thanks popeye - that's really helpful. So far, i've never put him down without being asleep initially ( perhaps that's where i'm going wrong)and i've never let him cry ( not sure whether to at 15 weeks) He's a very bright 15 weeks though and i can tell his anger cry versus his distressed cry ( got it when getting him to take the bottle)

Dh will be looking after him when i go back to work - not sure in the inital period whether that is better or worse than daycare. He doesn't seem to be very hands on at the moment and I had a bit of a crying session earlier and he took him out on his own so god knows how it'll go.

That's another reason i'm stressing so much - dh is the type of person to think if he's not going to sleep he's not tired - failing to realise how important sleep is for daytime contentment and night time sleep. So i'm trying to get some kind of daytime nap routine going now. Will try a few things but not hopeful it'll work without a lot of crying!!

[san2]

Hi!

My DS is 25 weeks and I still haven't gotten hang of daytime nap thing and it is stressing me (and probably DS too!) out.
He does go to sleep at fairly consistent times even if we are out and about I try and time car journey or walks.
It is the naps at home. I use a dummy but even that can be a bit of a battle or he needs settling in my arms so am thinking that is not great in long term.
Popeye - how long did your LO cry for when you started the day routine? After a few awful experiences in early weeks have not left him to cry - I almost panic that he will get himself too tired and not go to sleep so I dive in with cuddle and dummy.
Can I still teach him at 6 months or have I left it too late?!

[SweetandTenderTatties]

When my ds was that age he would either bf to sleep (still does at 19mo actually!) or fall asleep whilst being taken for a walk/ rocked in his pram. If he was tired he would cry initially when put in the pram but once we got moving he would settle down.

He also went through a phase of lying on my lap for the duration of his daytime naps, then eventually he would let me leave him lying on the sofa once he'd fallen asleep. What about if you or dh lies down with him on the bed?

I wouldn't let him cry either, and I think you have to find a gentle way of that both you and dh can use to get him to sleep. I personally wouldn't worry about whatever 'help' he needs to get to sleep, nor about creating 'bad habits'. He won't rely on theses things forever.

[WriggleJiggle]

So reasuring to know other babies have difficulty with daytime naps. Wriggler sleeps for 15-25 mins at about 9am (but only if in the car or pram), and again for 15-30 minutes after lunch. I have tried to stick to the same sort of time each day in the hope that the expectation of sleep might make her tired . After lunch nap is definately easier to achieve as she has a nice warm full tummy and a cuddle as she is feeding.

[jambot]

I think putting him down sleepy but awake is the key. As well as trying to read his signals so that he is going down as soon as he shows the first signs of being tired, not when he's already crying.
I also used to do a whole naptime routine with my DD, and to be honest there were times when I would let her cry for a few minutes, but 99% of the time she would fall asleep after a minute of two of moaning. To be honest, I think you're making it worse by picking him up as soon as he starts to cry. It's not giving him the chance to learn how to self-soothe and put himself to sleep.
A very good book that I always recommend to friends is 'Babysense'. It really teaches you to read your baby's sleep signals and gives great advice about getting them into a good routine, self-soothing etc. Check out the website. www.babysense.co.za. Also some good advice on the website. Also think about introducing a blankie. Did this with DD from about 3 months - just laying her on top of the blankie so she could get a feel for it. From about 4 months,started putting it into her hand and now at 20 months, as soon as she sees her blankie, she knows it's time for bed. It's a Babysense blankie, which you'll also find on their website.

[jambot]

Oh, by the way, DD was a rubbish napper until 4 months, when she suddenly started responding to the routine, blankie etc, and by 5 months, she was sleeping 4 hours a day. So there is hope. Good Luck. You just have to decide on a strategy and persevere. Sure things will come right.

[CGJ]

Wow as a Mumsnet virgin I'm thrilled thank you all so much for all the advice! Thanks Popeye thought about it last night and realised lack of routine at nap time and just sticking him into quiet boring nursery maybe an issue. Popped him in cot this morning with mobile on for bit longer than usual while I pondered how to do it....he fell asleep! Unfortunately was on way out but have decided may need to sacrifice a bit of my social life for sake of routine. Thanks all and good luck..

[hotandbothered]

I was so envious of everyone who had sleeping babies! DD slept at night ok but naps were non-existent. She'd sleep on my lap if we were out tho' so everyone thought she was so easy! Didn't crack it really, BUT NOW SHE STILL NAPS at 3.3 years! Everyone else is moaning they never geta break - so I feel so grateful now Don't really remember when she finally understood about daytime naps - just persevere...

[fizzbuzz]

Yeah, I have this napping problem.. thought I'd cracked it, but became less vigilint and now back to sqare one.
The biggest problem is dd waking up after about 1/2 hour nap, however can sometimes get round this...
The reason they wake up after this amount of time, is due to babies short sleep cycle of about 45 mins. However I do this:
DD always wakes after about 40 mins, so I go and wait outside her bedroom at this time. At first sign of a whimper I go in and settle her. It is really important to get in early, otherwise they just wake up more and more. If I get there early enough dd will usually settle back for much longer, BUT it is really important to second guess and get there straight away.
Sometimes(quite often) I get really pisssed off with it and just leave her, but she ALWAYS wakes up unless I do it. Have re settled her this morning, and she is now still sleeping 1 1/2 hours later.
IT doesn't work every single time of course....but it does a lot of the time.

[CGJ]

thanks fizzbuz after my euphoria this morning J slept just 30 mins will try your suggestion tomorrow. Still better than yesterday..

[popeye123]

Hi,
Just to answer San2's question...I don't let her cry in the "controlled crying" sense - but I will leave her maybe for 5 mins rather than rush in. It depends what type of cry it is - if its full on then I don't see the use in leaving her, she won't calm down but if she's whimmpering or a bit grizzly because she's tired than IF i leave her she will settle fairly soon.

Good suggestion by Fizzbuzz, I think thats a Baby Whisper trick isn't it? I ought to be doing that. "they" say if they wake up crying they haven't slep enough - thats often the case with my DD but to be honest I'm just chuffed that I can get two lots of 30mins out of her at the moment. Time to take it to the next level...but I think the lesson is not to expect too much too soon just take lots of little steps and you'll get there. Be consistent and perservere!

[popeye123]

..sorry, DD being a rascal tonight had to dash off.

san2 - I don't think 6mths is too old. Don't worry and don't give up. I wouldn't say I'd cracked it yet but there are signs of improvement in the last 4 weeks (she's 9mths now). I tried everything before that and I'm now sure that was the problem - you only need to keep it simple.
I'm not sure if its a coincidence or not but the more she got into solids the more tired and predictible she became, but I have had times when its taken me an hour to get her to sleep for half and hour. My "routine" only takes about 10-15 mins now including feed.

aimjee - if you don't want to leave him to cry then don't. don't feel pressurised. i know everyone tends to hold it up as THE magic solution but only in certain circumstances. if you do it half hearted it won't work. there may come a time when you feel you HAVE to stand back and wait/listen but only you will know when that time comes. in the meantime don't beat yourself up that you have to do anything drastic.
try not to worry too much about work - 4 weeks is a long time in the life of a baby.
I think your DH is partly right - if you were sent to bed early when you weren't tired you'd be fed up and fight it but adults don't really tend to get overtirred so he needs to realise that. Does DH spend whole days with your LO - has he seen for himself what he gets like when he's skipped a nap? What can I say - but he'll learn!

[amijee]

thanks everyone. I'm gonna take a bit of a back seat for a while and let dh decide what to do and see what happens with the sleep - i'm open to admitting i might be wrong and ds doesn't really need that much napping. Today he's had 3 lots of 20 - 30 min nasp - will see how the night goes.

[dennya]

Mine (18wks) is an excellent napper, but not won on the daytime naps. It has been a worry, untill someone posted on here to me that maybe dd was not napping because she does not need it. This helped me relax a bit about the whole issue, although I sometimes do wish that she would go down for a bit in the day just to have a short break. I usually have to go out to get her to sleep and even if outside it is only ever short naps.

[threebob]

Babies go weird at this age - it's not indicative of bad habits and it won't last forever.

It is too young to expect much from controlled crying - his brain just hasn't developed in that way yet.

Ds was never a big napper - but it's been great as he gets older not having to drop everything in the middle of the day so he can have a sleep. So do whatever works for you now - because he won't be having day sleeps forever so even the worst bad habit will be naturally broken forever anyway!

[curlew]

Just to add my tuppenceworth - I'm not sure that you can get babies that don't want to sleep to sleep. They are all different - my friend's baby had two hours every afternoon til nearly 5 - my dd gave up daytime sleeps completely at 16 weeks! Consider whether you are spending so much time and energy trying to get him to sleep that you lose any benefit (to you- as the most important person in this equation!) and you may be better off just putting him in the pushchair and going for a walk. Or cuddling up on the sofa together and watching some trashy telly (never to soon to intorduce him to Trisha!) I'm not convinced about the daytime sleeps making much difference to the night time ones either - I think an overstimulated baby can find going to sleep at night hard, but if you arrange some "down time" - a walk in the pushchair or sling, or a car journey during the day that shouldn't be a problem even if he doesn't sleep.
Oh, and remember that babies change incredibly fast - it was probably a coincidence that he stopped sleeping after your trip and he would have done even if you'd stated home. He'll be a different person next week, with a whole new set of challenges for you!

And he's far too young for controlled crying - at that age he can't cry in a calculated way, he only cries because he wants something. And (controvertial I know) at this age wants and needs are the same thing. Try not to get stressed about it - it will get better. Before you know it, he'll be 14 and you won't be able to get him out of bed without a stick on dynamite!

[fizzbuzz]

Yes it is a Baby Whisperer trick. Found this book really helpful, as regards settling them and sleeping.
It does work, but you can't let it drop,otherwise they default back to original problem. Ds would sleep upside down if nescessary, but dd very different.
Apparently, it's because boys are lazier than girls.

[kitegirl]

I also have a crap sleeper, ds2 14wks who won't sleep more than 30 mins during the day - and yes I have tried going with the flow but he is sooo tired, the poor love wants to sleep but doesn't know how. I second the baby whisperer tactics for extending naps, I've just resettled him back after 30 mins and he's still asleep! the website babywhisperer.com message boards have a lot of settling strategies. I never thought it would work but it did so worth a try!

[lori21]

Good to hear that it is not just me who has the same proplem!! I'm afraid I use the hoover instead of the hairdryer to get him to sleep. My DS has not done the 'sleepy but awake' thing in the day since he was 5 weeks old so I have to find ways to get him to that state without too much crying. If he does not have his day time naps he is a nightmare - overtired and cries even when held.

I have decided that I will do anything to get him to the 'sleepy but awake' state then stop so that he gets used to the idea of falling asleep by himself. At the moment this involves rocking and the hoover but occasionally if I catch him at that perfect time he will grizzle then go to sleep all by himself. I try and spot the sleepy signs but it is not as easy as it sounds as he has to be tired enough to drop off but not too tired to be overtired.

You are not alone and I am sure your dh will find his own way to deal with it.

[newmum36]

Sorry don't have time to read all the messages and sorry if repeating other threads. My ds has always fought sleep and I spent the first 12 - 13 weeks after a couple of hours awake and getting very irritable, pushing him round in that damn buggy....(either inside or round the block) or taking him out in the car. I also used a dummy to get him used to sleeping at the same times every day (popping it in and out ). I then realised that as winter was approaching I couldn't be out and about all that time and the dummy was driving me bonkers as every time he slept, I was pretty much tied to his side, putting it in and out!! . So, I started trying to sort out a nap in the morning, putting him in his cot with his dummy then gradually taking it away. He might cry for a while (no more than 5 mins) and then after about a week, he went down fine. I don't worry too much about the afternoon given that 9 times out of 10 I was out and about anyway or in the car when he'd go down fine.. As for a nap at lunchtime - if I'm out I usually keep him in his car seat on his buggy where he always seems to sleep happily (nice and cosy p'raps ??)- if I'm at home, I still let him sleep in his buggy but inside. Every time he approached that 45 min mark, I'd rock the buggy back and forth and he would eventually go off. Now, again 9 times out of 10 he will sleep for over 2 hours as he seems to have got used to a long sleep and I have to wake him - this may not work for you - but have go maybe ! Keep persevering and good luck. I felt like daytime naps were my life's work for a while, but somehow between us, they have got easier week by week. You may of course have a "non-napper" in which case you might have to accept it - but it sounds like she's wanting sleep but can't do it on her own - it is frustrating sometimes isn't it.

[amijee]

last 2 days have been better. I think for 2 reasons.

1. later bedtime - around 8pm and waking at 6am. I was trying to get him to sleep 12 hrs in the night which he wouldn't have and needed less daytime sleep
2. realised that he is perfectly ok on 3-4 half hr naps instead of trying to force him to stay asleep longer.

Let's see if it continues....

[fizzbuzz]

Completely agree NM, daytime naps were bloody hard work for me, and still can be. Mine like yours is slowly stretching to much longer naps, but I still need to police them.
Have just had to stop message to go and insert dummy, wish I was brave enough to remove it, but she loves it so much, and I am too pathetic to take it away.