the no-cry sleep solution

(678 Posts)
iris66 Wed 20-Sep-06 20:25:15

has anyone tried it? (book by Elizabeth Pantley) I'm on day 2 & looking for a bit of support as I know it's going to take time. I'm dying through sleep depravation with 8mth DS who bfs to sleep but is very very tricky to move so have been cosleeping whilst he fidgets & kicks all night(and power naps during the day)
Think this is the last chance saloon before ear plugs & leaving him to get hysterical (even though I know that won't happen - i just couldn't, he really does do the whole temper, then sad then hysteria/shaking/terror/I've been abandoned thing - even if DH goes to him - such a mummy's boy)
Anyway, please post if you've been successful with this [hopeful emoticon]

sweetkitty Wed 20-Sep-06 21:47:45

hi Iris I have just posted myself on T's non sleeping as well (in a way I'm glad it's not just me from the Jan thread that has problems, gets you down when they all go on about their 7-7 wondersleepers) anyway how are you finding the book so far, I will be watching your thread now, let me know who you get on, I may just be clicking on amazon before too long.

iris66 Thu 21-Sep-06 10:19:16

anyone?

bumbleweed Fri 22-Sep-06 16:27:43

Hi Iris, I have had that book out of the library twice now to try to help with my dd's sleep - she is 11 months now.

We have put alot of the suggestions in place - early bed-time, good bed-time routine, music etc. Our dd has never been able to go to sleep lying down on her own - has always needed rocking or feeding to sleep since she was a colicky baby.

The pull-off thing, where you try to wean them off breastfeeding to sleep hasnt worked for us, but I have read other threads where someone said it took 3 weeks but it did work for them.

We are trying to wean her off rocking to sleep - by rocking to relax and then putting her in the cot. Its taking weeks and weeks but the last few nights it really is starting to work - there have been tears and screaming but we dont believe in leaving her to cry so cuddle lots and stay with her. She now understands the phrase 'lie down' which is a huge bonus, whereas even 2 weeks ago she didnt.

Today I have even managed to put her down for a nap without rocking her (normally dh does bedtimes so he has been dealing with all the crying). It took me an hour this afternoon but she is asleep.

The music helps I think - we have one of those relaxation CDs called 'Sleep'. Also repeating the phrase 'sleepy sleepy, sleepy time' and 'SSSHHHHHHHHH' - using them when she is asleep and drifting off so that she associates with sleep.

What are you currently trying?

iris66 Fri 22-Sep-06 17:52:34

Thanks for posting bumbleweed It's great to have a positive story and I'm so glad it's working for you at last. I know it's going to take time so I'm persevering.
I'm doing the unlatching at the mo which seems to be successful on wakings up until about 1am but then he just won't go back in his cot (I've spent literally hours nursing,unlatching, rocking,shhushing & thinking he's deeply asleep only for him to wake as soon as he's in there - no matter how much I continue the rocking/shushing once he's down. I tend to give up at that point & sleep with him in his room (spare bed), though given that this impasse used to start at was 10pm I do feel I've made some headway [weak smile emoticon]
I've used music in his bedtime routine since birth, and the whole shhing/rocking thing. Unfortunately DH is away a lot (sometimes for weeks at a time) so he can't really help (DS just gets hysterical if DH tries to settle him at night even though he's great with him during the day)

DS isn't overly keen on daytime napping either which I don't think is helping (did you find this?). But I've managed to get 10.30 am as a firm sleeptime & he generally has 45 mins or so but it's hit & miss when or whether he sleeps later in the day. Have you got firm nap times?

bumbleweed Fri 22-Sep-06 19:45:11

oh heck no, naps have always been difficult

she has only rarely napped for more than 30-40 mins

She needs 2 naps per day min at the moment or gets so overtired and grumpy - sometimes will fall asleep on the boob, but much less these days, otherwise its buggy or car - which doesnt work if I need to stay in for some reason or am out and she isnt tired enough when in buggy/car

I think overtiredness due to lack of day-time sleep is a big prob with night-time waking - but I have no advice at all as have totally failed to make real inroads myself

Dd was daddy-resistant at nights too for ages - obviously due to bf and wanting boob. dh would try to settle her to give me a break and she would cry and cry and I would leap out of bed and scream 'oh give her to me then so we can all go back to bloody sleep'. So I know what you are going through there.

Oh how frustrating when you have spent ages getting to sleep and easing of the boob and then they wake up screaming as soon as they touch the cot. I really really feel for you.

I was knackered tho so had to increase dh role massively and she did get used to him. That doesnt help in your situation with your dh being away alot.

Thing is - you have made progress, albeit small step. Stick with your plan, and little by little you are sure to get improvements. I really really hope things get even better for you.

jabberwocky Fri 22-Sep-06 19:48:53

Hi iris66. I tried this book and have suggested it to many others. Ds was a terrible sleeper and the suggestions in this book really helped a lot. Depending on how ingrained the problem is, it may take a while to sort out and of course backsliding can happen. But it really is worthwhile to give it a go.

iris66 Sat 23-Sep-06 12:28:17

thanks everso much for your comments. I'm struggling to maintain the belief that it is getting better. Yesterday was a pain as he only had 45 mins in the morning then 30 mins in the afternoon so was totally overtired by 6.30 & wouldn't go down until 8.
Last night was:
8 - 12 asleep in cot
12 - 1 bf(10 mins) then resettle restettle resettle...
1 - 3 asleep in cot
3 - 4.30 bf (5 mins) & attempt to resettle but too knackered to last long
4.30 - 5.30 slept with me
6am - handed him over to DH & crawled into own bed for 3 of hours catch up.
I've written this down so I can compare it with future nights. Were any of your children's patterns like this?

jabberwocky Sat 23-Sep-06 14:38:32

Yep, except I didn't get the 8 - 12 part until he was 9 months old. so you're a months ahead of me

iris66 Sat 23-Sep-06 18:03:53

jabberwocky - for you but for me How old is your LO now & how long did it take before he/she stayed asleep after the late feed until morning?

I think I've been struggling more than I should mainly because I'm unable to sleep properly myself until after 11 on 4 out of 7 nights (DD(17) does evening waitressing & doesn't get in until then)
Fingers crossed for tonight being a couple of minutes better than last then!

jabberwocky Sun 24-Sep-06 00:29:03

Wellll, ds has never been a really terrific sleeper so still woke up once in the night until about 2 years old - he's 3 now. One thing that made a really big difference as he got older was not giving milk in the middle of the night. Yours may still be a bit young for that, but it's something to think about later on. Could you catnap on the couch while you wait up for dd? You really need to take advantage of the 8 - 12 time if you can.

iris66 Mon 25-Sep-06 05:33:32

Oooooh how annoying. DS went to sleep at 7. Had a bit of a grumble/topup bf/resettle at 8 & has been blasting out the zeds ever since. I woke up at 3 (amazed that he'd not woken) and haven't been able to sleep since!! grrrrr Oh please let this not be a one off for him!

jabberwocky Mon 25-Sep-06 10:38:51

There's the rub with a bad sleeper. You get so used to getting up with them that when they do start sleeping through you have to get your own sleep problems sorted out. Keep going down close to when he does when you can for now. The main thing for you atm is to stave off sleep deprivation.

momomama Mon 25-Sep-06 11:14:11

I'm using the book at the moment too! I found it such a relief to read about people who were in as much of a muddle as me. I'm into co-sleeping and breastfeeding but just feel I can't carry on without better and more restful sleeps myself. I've been trying to introduce the off the nipple thing for over a week now and think it is working very gradually. I've not even moved onto her other suggestions and DD was always in a bedtime routine (for all the good it has done!). DD is still waking up but much less and is definitely going bk over quickly and is not feeding for ages through the night as she was before. It has been hard to maintain resolve though, but as I feel I have no other options. The controlled crying is just unimaginable at the best of times never mind when I feel my eyes are burning through tiredness.I'll be checking on your progress and as you're a bit ahead of me praying for miracles!

iris66 Mon 25-Sep-06 12:50:54

momomama - last night was a blip I'm sure! I've only been doing this a week. I'm finding that DS is starting to clamp down when I do the unlatching so I'm having to wedge my finger inbetween his gums at the side instead as soon as his sucking slows to make it uncomfortable (he has 2 top & 2 bottom teeth & I've visions of losing a nipple <<shudder>>)

momomama Tue 26-Sep-06 08:02:51

that doesn't sound pleasant at all. My wee angel is unlatching but last night was horrific, she was up every hour!!!!! I'm in work this morning nearly crying with exhaustion. I work three days a week and this is the third week in a row the night before I go back to work she is more or less up at least hourly..... I think I see a pattern, the problem is what to do.

iris66 Tue 26-Sep-06 20:05:49

momomama - oh you poor thing. I started back to work today but luckily didn't have to be functional until 10 (self employed)
Well DS's blip was exactly that. he was up at 12 last night & as I'd been up since 3 the morning before i just didn't have the energy to do anything with him so ended up sleeping on the spare bed with him attached until 4 when I woke up & managed to fumble him into his cot.
one thing I have noticed though is that he has got very attached to my dressing gown. DD was the same (it was terry then) & I managed to settle her with an old terry nappy (later called an "umm" and still living under her pillow at 17 but now sewn into the shape of a fish) I've been shoving muslins in my bras for months & putting them in bed with him but he doesn't really seem too fussed but tonight I knotted up the belt of my dressing gown (knotted loads & small so he couldn't wrap it round his neck!) & shoved it in his hand. He couldn't quite decide whether he wanted my boob or the knotted belt so I'm hoping that it may become a substitute for me! fingers crossed eh!!

iris66 Wed 27-Sep-06 07:38:24

momomama - how was your DD's night? - hope it was better than monday.
I think I only got up once last night (awful isn't it when you're so pooped you can't even remember if/when you have to get up!!) I know got up to feed DS at 11.30 and I have the sneaking suspicion he didn't wake again until 5.45 when we got up.

Papillon Wed 27-Sep-06 07:55:47

you got up at 5.45!!

got to dash but will come back later and support you x

momomama Wed 27-Sep-06 08:25:42

I feel very guilty, I've hijacked your thread. DD wee bugger, again up every 11/2 hours. I feel awful as she has the cold and I think she was just needing reassurance so although I'm shattered I don't feel quite so bad. I'm ecstatic if you really were only up once. That would be a result. I'm trying to generate a lovey for DD but so far she's not been convinced, it was the same with a dummy when she just looked at me as if I'd gone mad if i thought she was going to be sucked in by that!

iris66 Wed 27-Sep-06 09:13:23

not hijacked at all!! - I should have called it a mutual support thread really
lol at your DD's reaction to the dummy. We've tried one on & off in desparation too - DS also gives us disgusted looks.

Hi Papillon - I'm taking advantage of DS's early start to try to ensure he's tired enough to have 2 good sleeps today (and therefore a good night - well, that's the theory - it's not worked yet but I'm ever hopeful )

Difers Wed 27-Sep-06 20:06:27

I am also trying this book out. I started today with extending DS's nap and trying to get him to love a small donkey. Hope you don't mind me gatecrashing thread. Just want encouragement to carry plans though. Could never let him cry like some books prescribe.

iris66 Thu 28-Sep-06 06:33:31

Hi Difers - welcome on board (as it were) How old is your LO? I struggle to get DS to nap much too. Though yesterday he got up really early (0545) so I kept him busy until his usual nap time (1030) and he did sleep nearly 1/2 hour longer than usual and had longer in the afternoon so maybe getting up early is his thing (slumps shoulders thinking of no more lie-ins for the next umpty ump years...) if it works to help his nights though I'll be chuffed to bits. How is your LO for naps?

momomama Thu 28-Sep-06 08:34:05

Hiya Difers, glad to have more people to moan to. I AM struggling. Day three of work this week and day three of functioning on very little sleep. DD was up every two hours last night, a marginal improvement on the previous two nights! poor DP had his head bitten off for suggesting he was tired (how dare he!) so he's off to work in a grump and I feel no further forward. I was so hopeful as well
Iris66 how long were you doing the plan before you got some wee successes?

iris66 Thu 28-Sep-06 09:09:49

momomama - LOL at your DP. my DH has had to leave for work by 7 the last 2 days & has been grumbling too. It's all I can do to bite my tongue. I'm so tempted to yell "tired? tired? you don't know the bloody meaning of the word...." grr .
This is my second week (I lose track of what I'm doing and when these days so excuse me if I'm vague). DS seems to be going down at night a bit better & sleeping for a bit longer until the night feed (used to wake anytime from 10 but it seems closer to 12/1 now) when I bf lying on the spare bed in his room then fall asleep with him - I was taking him into my bed but figured keeping him in his room may help. He is waking earlier in the morning 5.30/6 so I get him up then but is sleeping more restfully I think up until then (he used to wake every hour or two before. I think I only plugged him in once last night. It's very much a slowly slowly thing isn't it. I'm not having that much luck with getting him off the boob to fall asleep though. How about you?

iris66 Thu 28-Sep-06 09:11:30

momomama - are you keeping a diary of when he wakes/feeds/sleeps? the improvements are so slight that it's easy to think you're not getting anywhere and become disheartened. I'm sure you have made progress

BikeBug Thu 28-Sep-06 11:57:02

Hi, hope you don't mind me crashing in, I'm just beginning to follow the ncss book too. Ds is 6 and a half months and wakes every 2.5 to 3 hours through the night for feeds / cuddles / rocking. We have been co-sleeping: he sleeps marginally better that way, but I sleep far worse! Trying to get him to love his cot, love his sleep etc but am feeling very pessimistic because I know I was a shocking sleeper and have a vision of it running in families... Anyway, nice to hear of other people making some progress from a similar starting point (not nice that you have non-sleeping type babies, but you know what I mean )

momomama Thu 28-Sep-06 15:41:42

I'm happy to be in the company of other demented mums bedbug! I think you're right iris66, I need to start on the old log thingie as I need some feeling of achievement, even if it is only very very slight.
I'm going to go hardcore and try all advice at once, need a miracle!
DP phoned to say sorry it's just the exHAUSTION THATS GETTING TO HIM!!!!!! I know I'm being irrational but HIS EXHAUSTION! I know noone is getting much sleep but i am definitely getting the least, will he never learn he'll never win that arguement.

iris66 Thu 28-Sep-06 20:05:29

momomama - short answer - no - he's a bloke. Ergo he will always be more tired, ill, upset, hungry etc etc than you It's a PITA but in my humble experience, true.

I'm sure he doesn't mean to be annoying though. Blokes really don't deal with disruption at all well & I expect you're doing a very good impression of coping brilliantly so he feels he can have a moan & get a bit of sympathy (because you're clearly coping with it - it's a vicious circle)

Does DD sleep during the day when you're at work? Could you get your nursery/childminder to make a log too then you could mimic one anothers routines so she has set times for sleep?

Bikebug - Hi and welcome to our sleepless throng We're all just supporting each other through the misery of sleeplessness so do join in

DS seems to be happier for having more sleep during the day at least. He had an hour this morning (courtesy of a 1.5 hour walk in the rain to keep him that way) and 3/4 hour this afternoon (attached). I'm making sure he's physically very active for the 1/2 hour or so before sleep too to tire him out (he was chasing after the hoover this morning )

You know, we'll probably look back on this in a few years and say "ooh it wasn't that bad" (Well that's what I'm keeping in mind anyway.
Hope you all have reasonable nights (I would say good but know that's unlikely!!)
x

iris66 Fri 29-Sep-06 06:10:38

me and my big mouth
DS went down brilliantly at 7 last night but then was up 9.45 - 10.30, 11.15 - 12.00, 3.15 - 3.30, been awake now since 4.30 when he decided it was playtime v

Hope you guys fared better

Papillon Fri 29-Sep-06 06:44:08

Oh ((((Iris)))) that is yuck! He sounds like a new born!! My ds was abit special last night and quite keen to play. He seemed abit cold last night so put a warmer cover over him.

I must admit if he starts playing and thinking he can chew on my nipples and have cheeky face time. Then I go away and let him have some "reflection time" which seems to usually do the trick, that its night-time - no mucking about, go to sleep. Usually either stay close or bf him again.

He is much more determined than dd was being MALE

iris66 Fri 29-Sep-06 08:02:29

Papillon - I pretended to be asleep for ages whilst he was wriggling, kicking & clambering over me shrieking "dadadada".
I tried holding him tightly & tried to bf but gave up at 5.30 & brought him downstairs. He did have 20 mins or so lying on my chest at 6.30 though (not that it was much help to me - I was just dropping off when he wriggled awake again - so consequently feel like death now)
DH has just left for work marvelling on what a wonderful night's sleep he had & how refreshed he's feeling after his early night (slept solidly 9.30 - 7.30 am so of him)
I think I'm going to have to get him to do a stint of resettling after the late feed again (couldn't stand listening to the distress before so gave up on night 3) I really thought we were getting somewhere but this is ridiculous!!! I'm still hoping that it's a minor blip though & may change my mind later in the day when I've woken up a bit [weak smile emoticon]

Difers Fri 29-Sep-06 13:32:46

Hi, My lo is 8 months old, Progress to date:- the night before last he woke 3 times and was awake for 3 hours 10mins (I find the sleep/naps logs very interesting to do) between sleeps. That day he napped for 1hr 20mins.

Yesterday he napped for 2hr 10mins. Last night he woke once and was awake for 1hr 50mins. Much improved but perhaps a one off.

I'm following the strategies of increased nap time and the Pantley gentle removal plan.

Keep up the good work girls!!!!

BikeBug Fri 29-Sep-06 14:19:42

thanks for the welcome to the sleepless throng, and lol at 'bedbug' momomama, I should change to that
Iris - much sympathy for such a bad night - it's not the waking itself, its how utterly long they can stay awake for that grinds you down, it's like sleep is just the furthest thing from their minds at 4 am.... Ds is currently napping: bf, rocking and the lullaby cd finally persuaded him that daytime naps are a possibility. I'm going to have to deal with the fallout from all these props later, but I'm sure the NCSS said do *whatever it takes* to get daytime naps happening. Here's hoping for sleepy vibes for all of us...

BikeBug Fri 29-Sep-06 14:22:22

Difers, do you have any tips for increasing nap times? ds tends to wake up at 45 minute intervals so we're really struggling - getting him to nap at all without resorting to complete exhaustion is an achievement so far, napping for longer would be just excellent...

sweetkitty Fri 29-Sep-06 15:03:31

Both of mine are asleep right now.

Iris - sorry you had a rough night, it's no joke in the middle of the night. I suppose I'm lucky if T wakes and I get to her quick enough and shove a boob in her mouth she falls over again and she'll feed for about 5 minutes before latching off herself. So annoying as a dummy could do the same job but the girl wants the real thing or nothing.

My night was as follows: feel asleep on the boob at 7.30pm, took her up and she woke so another quick feed, woke at 9pm, 12am, 2am, 4am and 6am I'm so tired today at least it's the weekend I'll probably have an afternoon nap tomorrow leave DP to it.

Welcome all the newbies would say it's lovely to see you all but it's no fun with non sleeping children.

iris66 Fri 29-Sep-06 18:47:05

Sweetkitty - I'm so pleased your LOs had a good nap & hope they woke up happy bunnies for you Dom refused to sleep this morning & only had an hour this afternoon (I sooo hope this doesn't indicate another bad night - I feel awful)DH is bathing him as I type.

Bikebug - increasing the nap times is my issue too. DS's morning sleep is in his pram & I've tried gauging when he'll wake & then starting out for a walk at that point to effectively rock him back (difficult if he's in a cot ) but not had consistent success. It may work for you though.

Difers/Sweetkitty - any tips for increasing daytime sleeping?

momomama Fri 29-Sep-06 20:22:32

Oh Iris and sweetkitty, how awful, its actually worse when you think its getting better and then the worst happens. I've photocopied all the log pages and told DP he's to read everything too as i've kind of just went ahead and decided on the plan without consulting him so feel a bit bad now. He's up for helping and my mum is also (she watches DD when I'm at work)so maybe the big changes are ahead.
Daytime naps not good for me either, although bringing DD to bed seems to be the way to get the longest naps out of her, my excuse for napping anyway
I actually let her sleep for an hour between 4-5 and she went down again at 8, took and hour though!

sweetkitty Fri 29-Sep-06 22:31:38

Iris - T got up after 40 mins, A slept for 2 hours! They say you never get two the same and my two are day and night. T did eat all her dinner whilst A eats next to nothing, I keep saying I want one with T's eating and A's sleeping but imagine if I got a no sleeping/no eating one?

So today we have had an hour's nap this morning (oh at Toddlers with 20 screaming kids running around) and 40 mins this afternoon, put her to bed at 8, up 10 mins later (BF back to sleep), up at 9.30pm (BF back to sleep) am now heading off to sleep myself, poor DP he feels so helpless. I even expressed some milk onto a muslin and stuck it in with her.

Think I will be ordering the book this week

sweetkitty Fri 29-Sep-06 22:34:05

Sorry for the newbies that don't know me from the Jan 06 thread, DD1 is A 2.2yo, DD2 is T 8 mo, just incase you thought I had twins.

nearlythree Fri 29-Sep-06 22:56:10

Big fan of this book, I really liked the idea I had aplan to follow and it fits in perfectly with my ideas on not using CC. Hope I won't need it with baby ds though!

jennster Fri 29-Sep-06 23:18:45

Not read the full thread, but read the book when DD was 3-4 months. Was good common sense. Dd now 8 months and has JUST started sleeping 11 hours. Like the book says sleeping through is only counted as 5 or 6 (can't remember) hours. The book got us to only waking once in the night.

Difers Sat 30-Sep-06 09:58:24

Hi,

Yesterday lo napped for 2hrs 15mins. Last night he slept from 9pm to 8pm waking once at 3am for 30mins. This is brilliant in comparsion to the sleepless nights of before.

Bikebug and Iris, Basically he wakes after 45 mins, before I would have got him up now I am feeding him back to sleep which can take 30mins and is very boring when we could be playing etc..but if it means better sleep...!!!! so maybe am just 45min nap but pm have longer nap.

I bet we all laughed when we saw that babies T-shirt "Sleep is for the weak.."

BikeBug Sat 30-Sep-06 13:05:55

Hi all, what do you do when the sleep or nap routines don't work? Do you press on, or give up? I don't know whether I am establishing negative sleep associations (awake associations??)
We just had the worst night: started the bedtime routine (bath, feed, rock, lullaby cd) at 7 pm, still had an awake and, by that time screaming, baby at 11 pm...). I have no idea what was wrong - maybe it's developmental - he's just on the cusp of crawling and can pull himself up to standing, and it's all he wants to do. Better than sleep, obviously! Took him swimming this morning and even with that he still hasn't had any kind of nap, spent his nap routine time (feed, rock, lullaby cd) clawing at my chest with tiny sharp nails and not being sleepy. Dh has taken him out in the pram. Exhausted

momomama Sat 30-Sep-06 13:38:27

Awwww bikebug, you poor soul! That is so disheartening but my advice is press on. My DD has had her worst week yet and has gone from 1hour intervals through Monday night to sleeping for 3 hours on the trot last night. I suppose my incentive is a lack of alternatives, it has got to work.
Also there could have been a teething episodes, the cold, growth spurts etc to content with so don't give up after one bad night. After one particularly evil night a couple of weeks ago I noticed DD had cut two teeth, I felt awful for being so crabbit and pissed off!
Incidently my DD bit my nipple yesterday and drew blood, can only assume thats her feedback on the 'pantley technique' for unlatching so I understand your concern about negative associations.
I am a big fan of sending out DP with DD and praying she has a good sleep in the buggie - good call. You should be in your bed too!

danceswithbaby Sat 30-Sep-06 15:36:19

Hi, hope you don't mind my joining this discussion? My DD is 7.5 months old and her longest streth of night sleep seems to be 2hrs. Night before last she woke every hour from 10pm then half hourly from 3am-6am when I gave up & got up. I read Pantley's book in hope, a few months ago but found it no use at all. My DD bf's until sleepy, pulls off, turns over (we co-sleep)and puts herself to sleep (brilliant). An hour or whatever later she wakes and I watch her try to put herself back to sleep. She tries really hard and very occasionally succeeds but if not I feed her down and off we go again. If her little belly's too full to suckle any more she demands that I walk her down. If I don't respond she gets distressed and getting her back down would take ages, otherwise it never takes too long. It's the frequency of her waking that bothers me. Why does she wake? She naps fine during the day, gets tired and actually demands to nap and goes down easily. The frequency/length of her naps don't affect her night sleep in the slightest. The book only seemed to offer one or two reasons/solutions which don't fit my baby. Maybe I'll get it out & read it again.... Nice to know I'm not the only one who dreads nighttime!

Difers Sat 30-Sep-06 20:05:40

Ha, I spoke too soon Jake had barely an hour of nap today and unusually resisted bedtime aswell! I'll teach me to boastpost!

Monomama - Ouch, I wondered about the Pantley technique with a baby with teeth.

Bikebug - Hope you have a better one tonight!!

Difers Sat 30-Sep-06 20:09:06

Danceswithbaby - A big welcome to the no cry but no sleep either solution club.

nearlythree Sat 30-Sep-06 20:45:47

danceswithbaby, it sounds like your dd has got used to you either bf or walking every time she wakes in the night. My dd2 was similar, I had no problems settling he rin the evening but then she'd wake all through the evening and night. I think Pantley might have worked if I'd stuck to it. I also had some success with PU/PD but dh scuppered that one.

Hi, can I gatecrash too? I've got a 5 mth old who goes down perfectly at 8pm, sleeps til 12 or 1am, then refuses to go back into her own cot. Everytime I think she is asleep I move her, but it doesn't work. We end up co-sleeping so I don't get any sleep.

nearlythree Sat 30-Sep-06 22:25:46

How does she go down?

mez656 Sun 01-Oct-06 04:05:06

I'd like to gatecrash too if I may.

My dd is 8.5 months and a boob addict. She wakes up every 1.5-2 hours at night and DEMANDS to be bf. We're co-sleeping, which I like, but I wonder if I will need to give that up in order to get her to sleep more. Any co-sleepers out there who manage to sleep through the night?

I've tried to gentle removal thing and it doesn't do much. It does mean that I can get my boob out of her mouth a bit earlier but it hasn't helped in terms of her not demanding it.

I've tried going by a strict bedtime routine but she is not consistent in terms of when she is tired enough to sleep so half the time I do the routine and she's not ready for sleep. The other half, we are out and she's exhausted by the time we get home and wants to sleep immediately (aka change her nappy and plug in the boob). Or, the best is when she falls asleep at 7pm but then wakes up an hour later because she has to poo and then is up until 10pm+

Oh, and, I too have tried dummies to no avail. Sometimes she plays with them during the day though by biting them or banging them on things. Sigh.

Sleeping through the night seems a very long off goal. I would be thrilled with 3-4 hour stretches (which have happed on occassion at which point I wake up and frantically check to make sure she is breathing!).

I don't want to resort to controlled crying but in moments of exhaustion (and peer pressure) I start to wonder...

danceswithbaby Sun 01-Oct-06 08:26:23

Mez656 - I can't believe you posted at 4.05am!! We were awake but at least I was in bed living in hope of 1 more hours kip... Like you, I consider a 3 hour stretch of sleep a good night. Controlled crying crosses my mind but I know I'd never do it to her.
Nearlythree, you're right, she has got used to relying on me to help her get back to sleep, but I don't know how to change that. She seems to want to be asleep as much as I want her to be. I don't mind too much getting her back down, it's not usually too hard, I just wish she'd stay asleep a bit (ok, a lot) longer.
Wrigglejiggle - Does your dd then sleep fine in your bed?

BikeBug Sun 01-Oct-06 12:06:52

gosh, this is getting busy isn't it? So many sleepless babies . Mez and danceswithbaby, sorry to hear you were both up in the middle of the night. We had some more resisting of bedtime again last night, he held out from 7 to 10 pm, but then a surprisingly good nights sleep. Ds woke at 11.30 and went back down with a back rub, then woke at about 4 ish to feed and slept until 8 am! He's been napping for almomst an hour now, but without the benefit of any routine, just fell asleep on dh and is now kipping on the sofa. Here's hoping the jinx of the boast-post doesn't get me for this

sweetkitty Sun 01-Oct-06 13:54:15

hi all welcome to more newbies wow in some way it's reassuring to know we are not the only ones facing this problem. My DD2 is a total boob addict too, last night was horrendous I was practically in tears with exhaustion. DD2 fed at 7.30pm as usual and fell asleep, I put her up to bed and she woke 10 minutes later, went up fed her again and she latched off rolled over to go to sleep then about 30 seconds later got back up and started playing and rolling about her cot (we have a bedside cot she starts the night in there then we cosleep). She went back down at 10.30pm and woke again before midnight got her back off to sleep, fell asleep for 10 minutes and she was awake again, I was so tired at this point. I think we had another 3-4 feeds in the night (I cannot remember).

It's horrible you know she's exhausted but she just won't go to sleep without the boob. Am ordering Pantleys book today.

iris66 Sun 01-Oct-06 19:09:38

Hi all - there must be an easier way I guess this is what you get for trying to be kind (they say the right/best way's not always the easiest though)
Just had two nights of horrendousness & DS looks like he's part of the Adams Family his eyes are so black How is it they can go for so long without proper sleep?? I can't !!!! - and I so can't anymore - this is really getting me down.
I've come to the conclusion that the Pantley pull-off is pants unless the LO is very young. DS now clamps down in a four fang nipple piercing chomp as soon as he feels a finger anywhere near his cheek, never mind his mouth! I'm now going right off this method so any tales of success would be gratefully received. (slumps over the keyboard feeling rather tearful at the prospect of more of the same or, next stop, controlled crying <shudder> )

Papillon Sun 01-Oct-06 19:12:55

Oh (((Iris)))) this is not good

was thinking of you today and just getting around to posting as the kids are in bed.

You mentioned that your dh is away abit - any possibility you could take your ds in to your bed for awhile to try and work on sleep that way??

Papillon Sun 01-Oct-06 19:21:28

Things I have done that seemed to have helped and worked are:

Sing the same song at night so that they know it. Make sure it has the words "sleep" in it!!

Iris I try and connect with ds energetically and that has worked, with abit of reiki.

Rhythmic patting of the back or stomach as they are lying there. I use headphones and listen to ambient tunes which seem to have a nice soothing beat.

I repeat "Go to sleep" every now and then.

I do respond quickly if sleeping iwth the baby with a Shhhh if they rouse to remind them to sleep. If they continue, I shhh again and if it continues then try other methods.

Meanwhile, ds has a cold and have moved dh to sleep with dd and ds sleeps with me. I have had much better sleep actually and am rather liking having my little mannikin next to me again. poor dh!!

iris66 Sun 01-Oct-06 19:21:28

Papillon - He was in with us last night from 10 (after going down at 7.15 then awake at 7.45, 845 & 9.30 but was tossing & turning all night so we didn't get much sleep. He decided it was playtime again at 4 so Dh took him downstairs (he then slept 4 -5 9.15-10 then 2.30-3.15) I'm just about to feed & put him down now.
DH is working late all week then away for 5 days from Fri(am going to be on my knees ). I'm starting to wonder if cranial osteopathy may be worth a try to see if there's something that I'm missing
Thanks for your support by the way - it's much appreciated ((hug))

iris66 Sun 01-Oct-06 19:23:01

back in a while - good tips

Papillon Sun 01-Oct-06 19:23:50

we are being sychronous Iris with the time then and I had forgotten was going to mention cranial work too!!

I had it done on ds when he was first born, the midwife recommend b/c of rough birth and I could see when massaging him that he was not right.

It helped him get comfortable and he slept better

iris66 Sun 01-Oct-06 20:01:46

Blimey - to the second!!

We have a good routine I think. Bath, bf ,say goodnight/kiss everyone& tell them it's bedtime & time to go to sleep, switch music on, book (lots of bedtime/time to go to sleep references), bf (have tried dropping/shifting the last bf - which is purely a comfort thing but it doesn't work)

He goes down so easily (as you can see) but is just getting progessively worse at staying there. It really is purely that he just can't resettle for some reason unless he's attached to me. He is so very tired too (despite being an absolute joy during the day) it can't be good for his health.

I need to get some rest myslf so am going for a relaxing bath then to bed.

Difers Sun 01-Oct-06 20:06:44

Iris, My friend had her baby visit an osteopath when she was a few months old and was excessively crying and it did stop the crying. It can't hurt to try can it?

Is anyone else doing sleep nap /logs and technique as suggested in the book?

What days are people on? I am on day 6.

Elizabeth Pantleys e-mail is in the back of the book. Maybe we could email about the Pantley Pull off technique? I haven't as yet but will if I run in trouble after the magical 10 days!!!

I do find the book very nourishing!

nearlythree Sun 01-Oct-06 23:14:50

As I said before, I love this book, but with my boob addict in the end we did have to have tears and IME (I've done this twice with both dds, one bf and one ffed) there has to be some crying (think even William Sears admits this in one of his books). The great thing about Pantley is that she is wonderful on getting set up with routines etc, but in the end I found the Baby Whisperer's pu/pd better. But it was hard as dd2 was in our room until she was nearly two, and I gave up in the end as she coudl smell my milk. Finally got my two sleeping through when they were both two by doing gradual withdrawl and rapid return - liked both methods as even though there were tears (I had to cold turkey the bf in the end ) I never had to leave them to cry. Wish I'd known about pu/pd with dd1 and had stuck to it with dd2 though.

Morning all. Baby in own tonight for first time! As usual, went to sleep fantastically at 8pm (bath, cuddly feed, down in cot with mobile music). Woke for feeding at 2am, fell asleep in my arms, put in cot, woke and cried, fed again, and now its 2.25am she is back in cot with mobile music and hasn't murmured. Didn't want to use mobile music during the night, but it has worked and I need my sleep.

iris66 Mon 02-Oct-06 08:59:39

WAHAY!!! such a better night last night (even though DS didn't sleep in his cot after 11)

He went down at 7.45 then not a peep until 11. bf then back in his cot for 15 minutes then bf up down for 30 mins then in with me asleep until 4. bf on & off & dozing until 7.45!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He looks so much happier this morning

Wrigglejiggle - i used a mobile every time with DD but haven't with DS (never like the tune - it's a Mamas & Papas one - what a daft reason eh!!) i like the idea of PUPD but he's been getting too hysterical. I may very well try it at at some point. I'm inclined to agree that there are going to be some tears changing such firm sleep associations.

How did everyone elses weekends go? (day 13 for me)

danceswithbaby Mon 02-Oct-06 11:27:06

Iris, what a poo weekend. Your ds sounds like my dd only worse! I've dusted off Pantley and decided to give it another go before she gets there. I wouldn't worry about the pull-off thing - it sort of works with my dd but it doesn't affect the length of her sleep or stop her demanding boob when she does wake. The priority here is keeping them asleep longer, not getting them there in the first place. I think 'getting to sleep without mummy' can come later. It sounds like your ds is chronically overtired all of the time. The few occasions my dd does get a decent sleep she's so much more content and less fussy. I've decided to tackle naps. I think she takes too many and not long enough. It doesn't sound like yours takes many at all. I'm going to let her nap on my lap and when her little beadies pop open at 30 mins 59 seconds I'll be right there with booby, ready to pounce. My other plan this week is to fill her belly and wear her out! She's started crawling, so it's baby gyms & swimming all week.

momomama Mon 02-Oct-06 11:59:09

Hi all, I'm so happy to have so much company in the pararel universe of sleepless nights. I've thought I was going mad at points this weekend. After a gradual improvement over the week DD slept a few nights in 3 hour bursts, halleluia! Then last night after a wonderful day with a huge nap she slept beautifully for 3 hours and was then up off and on for about 4 hours before ending the night on another 3 hour stint. Is this progress?????
Glad to hear some of you are finding some success, I'm suffering from a severe lack of motivation today and its given me the kick on the bum to keep going.
Incidently whats PU/PD?

danceswithbaby Mon 02-Oct-06 12:09:55

Me again, I posted the last message without reading properly (lack of sleep, I know you'll understand!) - Iris, so glad you had a better night!

Plan to make dd nap longer is working. Was poised and ready with boob, didn't think it'd work but it did! She's been out for almost 1.5 hrs now. And yes, she's on my lap. My bum's gone numb and I'm dying for the loo.......

BikeBug Mon 02-Oct-06 12:11:33

more of the same here over the weekend - good and bad. Ds is really fighting sleep in the evenings - took from 7 to 9.37 last night - but he is getting better at naps. I'm not doing the logs and things properly, I'm working on the general principle of more naps = good, is everyone else being sorted and making notes?
Iris, so glad you had a better night! I'm with danceswithbaby on this - sleep at any price first, then perfecting sleep habits later (hopefully!)
I've just dragged myself out of bed after cuddling ds to sleep - I was hoping to be able to put him in his cot, but no chance, he knows when his head hits the cot not the big bed...
Dh is unfortunately now convinced that ds's night wakings (very chatty between 5 and 6 this morning) are because I've let him have too much sleep in the daytime <sighs>

BikeBug Mon 02-Oct-06 12:15:16

momomama - pu/pd is 'pick up / put down', I think it is from the Baby Whisperer books and the idea is you pick up your sleepless baby for just long enough to sooth and calm them, and then put them back down again. If I remember right, you put them down awake, always, so they don't rely on a big cuddle to fall asleep in your arms. I'm not keen on the Baby Whisperer personally, but many find her very helpful.
I think 3 hour sleep blocks are progress btw - just need them joining together now!

moljam Mon 02-Oct-06 12:17:48

sorry to butt in.do you think ncss could work for me?thomas slept through from birth till 7 months with great long naps also(i know im lucky,i have 2 older children who didnt sleep till 2 years ago now aged 6 and 5)but has now decided against sleep.we cosleep half the night,i dont believe in cc and dont want to do anything that upsets him but would quite enjoy sleeping through!what does it involve?

iris66 Mon 02-Oct-06 12:46:13

dances with baby - PMSL with your numb bum. I now have a conditioned response to go to the loo as soon as I hear DS wake at night as I don't know how long I'm going to be with him
I think you're absolutely right, by the way,about focussing on actually getting sleep initially rather than the finer points of how.

DS naps, during the day, so much better when he sleeps well at night. He's been asleep for 1 hr 15 so far - unheard of for a morning sleep normally!

momomama - sounds like progress to me congratulations!! PU/PD is pick up/put down. From what I've gathered it's about going in & just settling them then leaving the room (again & again & again) until they realise that you are actually going to come & reassure them but they're not going to be allowed out of the cot. (please correct me if I'm wrong anyone as I've not really read much about it)

Sweetkitty - how's it going with you? hope you managed to get a nap or too over the weekend.

Anyhow, best go & sort himself some lunch for when he wakes. Glad it's sunny here - should make it pleasant for walking him to sleep later. Take care all.

Papillon Mon 02-Oct-06 13:00:35

good to hear he had a better sleep ds only woke once so am very pleased about that

sweetkitty Mon 02-Oct-06 13:33:22

We had a better night here last night as well, DD2 went down at 7.30pm absolutely shattered (she had one 30 min nap all day yesterday) woke back up at around 8ish I fed her again and she went through until 11.30pm (but that was because I had to move her to get into my bed as she had rolled from her cot onto my side of the bed). Anyway that was her until 6 this morning so it can be done. She had a feed at 6 then that was her until I woke her at 8.30am as we had to get ready for toddlers.

With DD1 we did a sort of baby whisperer PU/PD type of thing when she went into her own room at 15 months (long story as to why she was still in with us horrendous house move) she used to get up at 5am and come in with us (no feeding involved) so when she woke one of us would go in resettle her and lie on the floor next to her and each time she got up we resettled her again. Took about a week and a half then she slept straight through. Was hoping to do a similar thing with DD2 at a year when a plan to stop BFing but I don't know I can wait that long.

BikeBug Mon 02-Oct-06 13:57:46

hi moljam (I know your name ). I think it is fine for older babies - the book is split into 2 sections, advice for babies <4 months, and for babies >4 months to 2 years. The author co-slept and breastfed, so very friendly to that!

Pitchounette Mon 02-Oct-06 14:07:11

Message withdrawn

moljam Mon 02-Oct-06 14:14:05

bikebug,wondered if you were same person :0.we part cosleep,lo spends first part of night in cot,although dh has suggested no cot just our matress on floor and full time cosleeping.would half and half confuse him and mess around ncss?does any one else i might know post on here?im not clever enough to use different name!

fridascruffs Mon 02-Oct-06 14:31:17

i've also just read ncss and haven't used the whole routine or the logs, but did start with the Pantley Pull-of jobbie. Iris, I also found that after a couple of days my DD (7 mths) started clamping down in anticipation of being hoicked off the nipple, and she has one tooth and another coming so it's a bit painful. Have given up on it for last 2 days though cos I was too tired, have a DS of 2.3 who wakes once a night as well as DD's 3-4 times a night with a 5:15-5:45am wakeup-for-the-day time . DS is now ill so woke a few times last night. ncss sounds like a long job really.

nearlythree Mon 02-Oct-06 21:01:01

Hi, re the pu/pd thing, you never leave the room while your lo is crying. You pick them up, soothe them, then when they are calm you put them down but continue to soothe them i.e. whipsering shhh, stroking their hair or patting their back (if old enough to front sleep). Then you withdraw that gradually until they no longer need you. Tracy Hogg (the Baby Whisperer) was very against CC (what she called 'Feberising') and believed that leaving a child to cry destroyed the trust between parent and child. I think I would have had more success with Pantley if dd2 hadn't been a boob addict - the Pull Off thing just never worked, she hung on with her teeth! With regard to the Baby Whisperer, I think that as with all parenting books you have to remember that parts of it will suit you and your baby and parts won't, but I certainly wish I'd had it when my first baby was born.

mez656 Mon 02-Oct-06 21:35:12

Just wanted to clarify - I'm in Brazil so the 4am postings are actually 10pm for me. The situation is not QUITE so desperate. Although, not to say I'm not awake at 4am more than I would like to be.

PU-PD, crying -- do people really think it's necessary for some crying to happen? I'm not good at handling crying... I also wonder about the PU-PD thing - is it not worse to be with the baby and let them cry so the baby learns that "mum lets me cry" or to do CC and at least you are not there? I guess I just think that my DD would get more upset if I were nearby and refusing the boob than if I weren't there at all...
But, really, I don't like CC or PU-PD and the gentle removal thing is not working for us.

nearlythree Mon 02-Oct-06 23:16:04

mez, I can only tell you from my own experiences, with dd1, who was bottlefed, there was very little crying, but she didn't learn to put herself to sleep or sleep through the night until she was 2, through gradual withdrawl (very similar to a lot of NCSS techniques). Before this, her crying if left - even if I sat up on the bed rather than lying down - was pure distress and I put this down to her difficult birth. Dd2 otoh cried through tiredness and frustration. Sadly, after trying for over a year intermittently with NCSS and PU/PD I had to cold turkey the bf with her when she was 22 mo, by which time I was 20 wks pg with ds. Later we did gradual withdrawl, but it has only been recently that she has learned to really fall asleep by herself through rapid return (which is obviously only suitable for toddlers or older). PU/PD was better for her than NCSS and I wish I'd stuck with it.

Pu/PD isn't 'mum lets me cry', it's 'mum supports me through my crying'. IME nothing winds a baby up more than you coming in when they are distressed and then going away again. With pu/pd you pick them up when they are distressed and the only crying you allow to continue when they are lying down is the whingey tired crying. Mez, do you have a partner that can do any of this for you? It will be much easier whatever method you use if you start with someone else so the boob isn't around, although I appreciate how hard this is.

Now dd2 snuggles down in her little bed and it's her haven. It is so beautiful to see and she is a much healthier child for getting a decent amount of sleep.

(And ds puts himself to sleep in his cot without me even being there! )

danceswithbaby Tue 03-Oct-06 06:50:23

Well, the nap strategy worked yesterday. We went from 4 x 30 minute naps to 2 x 1.5 hour naps! Did this mean she slept better? It did not. Up hourly 11pm-3am then half hourly until 6am. With a 40 minute suckathon somewhere around 1.30am. All in all another RSN (rite shite nite). Ah well. Today is another day and off we go again...

Even if this goes on until she's 30 though, I don't think I'll ever let her cry whether I'm there to witness it or not. I just don't think it's natural (hence why it hurts so much), or healthy for either of us. There must be another way and I refuse to give up!!!

iris66 Tue 03-Oct-06 10:51:27

danceswithbaby - I think this is the 2 steps back bit .
DS had 1.5 hrs yesterday morning then a further 45 mins in the afternoon following his good night. Last night he went down easily (again) but was up every hour until I brought him in with me at 11 (he also went on a mega suckathon from 4 - wriggling & fidgeting all over the place) I've given up doing the pull-off for the moment by the way

I'm hoping that by keeping the focus on naps the nights will eventually sort themselves out.

Know what you mean about the crying - I've just had a peek at the controlled crying thread <<<shudder>>> but each to their own. I suspect some people think we're mad for not doing it

fridascruffs Tue 03-Oct-06 10:59:14

With DS (now 2.3) I started to give him about 60ml of formula before he went to bed, because I thought he was waking through the night from hunger (now I think he was just waking ). I still bf him at all other times and before or after the bottle, until he was 13 months old. The bottle was no magic bullet, but it did help in the sense that, after a couple of months, he got used to it and would take that to bed with him and go off to sleep on his own. Also if he woke at night I could leave him with a bottle instead of bf. Not in the books I know and it's another habit to break later, but at least I got more sleep and he was happy. He gave it up pretty easily in the end, at about 18 mths.

momomama Tue 03-Oct-06 13:18:21

Dances with babies, loved your RSN code, it had me laughing hysterically, which believe me I needed after last night.

Both Sun and Mon DD had one nap for over two hours, which i though was good as she's nearly 1. Last night was terrible though, she tossed and turned, woke up, bf, slept on the nipple and cried when removed. I was crying at one point too I was soooo frustrated and exhausted and hopeless this will ever start to work. Feel utterly fed up!

nearlythree Tue 03-Oct-06 13:39:33

I think cc is horrible, too, and would never do it. But when you have a two yr old who is ill through lack of sleep, sometimes you have to make very difficult decisions. Unless you have been there, it might be wise not to be judgemental.

iris66 Tue 03-Oct-06 14:39:31

nearlythree - I hope I didn't come across as being judgmental earlier I believe parents do know instinctively what will & will not work for them & their child. I have no problem with CC in principle (after all, it works for many many people) - just that it's not my bag (yet).

Difers Tue 03-Oct-06 21:18:11

Dear Monomama, I will will your baby to sleep well tonight. I'm sure things will get better.

Things I've discovered from my sleep logs to date.
1) DS always has 10 hours of night sleep regardless of how often wakes or how long stays up.
2) DS naps longest after swimming. But longer naps don't mean better sleeps, but do mean more rest for Mummy.
3) Has varible stretches of sleep from 1hour 15 mins to up to 7 hours. Therefore I don't think he is hungry at night but just waking and finding it tricky to fall asleep again.

Take Care all, good night!!!

iris66 Tue 03-Oct-06 22:01:09

note to self - do proper sleep log !!!!

momomama Wed 04-Oct-06 08:44:46

Have tried sleep logs the last two nights but never completed them after 11.30, ironically my most 'active' time with DD off and the breast like a yo-yo. How do you manage to write it down? I think it would be good to be able to identify patterns other than the dominant theme of no bloody sleep!
Hope you're all well rested this morning, I kicked DP out of the bed last night and this actually meant a better sleep for all the family. doesn't bode well for a sex life right enough!

iris66 Wed 04-Oct-06 09:19:21

momomama - I seem to end up in DS's room most nights so know know what you mean. The predominant theme here isn't so much the waking up as the not being able to settle again

I slept with DS from about midnight & he just kept waking every hour or so to chew me - it wasn't even comfort sucking (but then he is very dribbly so may be teeething again [groan]) I'd had enough by 5 so traded him with DH for the warm spot in our bed for a couple of hours (feeling very grateful to DH this morning for doing that - hthe house was freezing & we've got frost outside!!!!)

BikeBug Wed 04-Oct-06 09:49:07

Very impressed by the sleep logs, Difers. I often can't remember in the morning how often I've been up in the night - last night he fed twice, or was it three times? And I think I was awake and rubbing his back to send him back to sleep once, or maybe twice... I suppose it is the good and bad of co-sleeping. Maybe if I could get him sleeping in his own cot, I wouldn't hear some of this and he'd settle himself, but then again maybe I'd have to get out of my warm bed, and be very aware of every single night waking... TOday I put him down for a nap, he woke up when he touched the bed, glared at me, turned over and went back to sleep. This is a major step forwards!

momomama Wed 04-Oct-06 09:55:30

Oh iris, waking every hour is just exhausting. I know Pantley said it was a long term programme but this is ridiculous!
Ths stakes are getting higher as the things I would do for a 5 hour sleep are becoming more extreme as the days go on! The mind truely boggles.....

momomama Wed 04-Oct-06 09:57:27

Congratulations bikebug!!!! I'm full of joy at your achievement (in the absence of any of my own)

danceswithbaby Wed 04-Oct-06 09:57:41

Iris, I hope you're right about the two steps back bit! Yesterday's naps were right on target again, and so much fresh air and exercise...... But no. Another RSN Up every single hour from 9pm-6am. She does seem better rested though. I'm beginning to suspect that napping better just gives her more energy to but into night wakings!!

Have tried night logs but they made such depressing reading I stopped. I'll try again, and will give the nap-thing at least a couple of weeks before writing it off.

I tried the 'when baby unlatches, scoot away from baby' thing last night. Baby just scooted right after me. At one point we were both horizontal across the bed with feet in dh's groin. Not that he noticed, poor chap's forgotten he's got one.

danceswithbaby Wed 04-Oct-06 14:34:52

OK, this nap-thing is getting out of hand. Dd woke from her usual nap 29 minutes and fifty nine seconds in, as usual and showed no inclination to go back to sleep, despite trying so hard that she bit me. So I took her swimming (the 'wear her out' part of the plan). This worked a treat and she fell asleep in the car seat on the way home. Tempted though I was to leave her there, I went by the book and put her to bed.

Then I started running round like a headless chicken because I'd put on the 'night-time sleep cue music' and not the 'day-time sleep cue music. I used to be normal.

Anyway, that was 2.5 hours ago and she's still there!! WHY CAN'T SHE DO THIS AT NIGHT?? I went in just before 30 minutes and she opened her eyes and looked at me then went right back to sleep again. Here I am wandering around not knowing what to do with myself.

Looks like I'm either going to have to get a swimming pool put in, or dangle in in the water-butt just before bed.

When she wakes, it'll be straight down the baby-gym.

Congrats on your breakthrough Bikebug!

Really pleased I made you smile Momomama.

sweetkitty Wed 04-Oct-06 15:28:16

Well the past two night here haven't been all that bad, night before last she was up once at 12ish for a feed then that was her until 6 in the morning.

Last night was the best night ever, she went to bed at 9 with the usual BF, woke at 10.15pm but instead of giving her a boob I shhed her and rubbed her back, she was absolutely shattered and she went back to sleep herself until................ (wait for it) 5am, this is the longest she has ever gone in her life without boob. However, I woke with a jolt at 4 thinking what's wrong she's still in her bedside cot not in with me, there she was sound asleep next to me, no blanket on, upside down and face down in the cot! Had to prod her just in case. She had a feed at 5am and that was her until 8 this morning. I could cope with being owken at 5am for a feed at least then you have had a good few hours sleep yourself, the hourly thing is horrendous.

I think my copy of NCSS has arrived but I was out this morning so it's gone to the PO for collection instead. If we have nights like last night I may not have to use it, I know it's a blip I'm not even beginning to kid myself.

Daytime naps are still a bit hit and miss, she's had half an hour today total, just fed her at 2.30pm and she wasn't that bothered just latched off sat up and started to play! This means she will be overly tired come 7pm though which is a good and bad thing.

Hope everyone else in sleep deprived land isn't doing too bad.

moljam Wed 04-Oct-06 16:51:04

someone mention day and night cue music,what do you use?can it be anything?im still trying to decide what to do ncss or thinking maybe baby whisperer although dont know much about either,just know i need sleep!im even thinking of giving up cosleeping although i really enjoy it as im worried im not helping thomas but confusing him!help!

danceswithbaby Wed 04-Oct-06 18:07:22

Moljam, for 'day sleep cue music' I just use a 'sounds of nature' cd i got frm M & S. I make it loop so that it keeps going no matter how long she naps.

For night time, have you seen the Price Lionheart Slumber Bears on the market? It plays stuff apparently recorded inside a mother's womb. It seemed to calm my dd when she was born so my dh got it on the PC somehow & made it loop so it can go all night. Do you want me to e-mail it to you?

My dd does seem to know the difference between the night and day music, and when I put it on she seems to know it's nap/sleep time. It also blocks any external noises which may wake her.

I don't know anything at all about the 'whisperer' technique, I just know I'll never do anything that involves letting her cry.

Please, I don't want to be judgmental and I've found myself so much more tolerant of other people's parenting styles since having my own. It's just that CC, for many reasons, will never be for me and my daughter. So I've GOT to fine another way or die!!

Maybe changing your sleeping arrangements will confuse you ds and make for even less sleep in the short terrm? I know if I moved my dd away from me now I wouldn't sleep at all for worrying about her. But then again I haven't got two other children to worry about. Dunno... just go with your instincts. Good luck.

moljam Wed 04-Oct-06 19:32:22

dancewithbaby,thankyou so much!i really do enjoy cosleeping and agree id also never do anything that may upset ds.i didnt think that change could make it worse!ds has gone to bed tonight with nature sounds cd playing,he went really easy,bath,massage and bottle!he had had no nap today though!ive not heard of princelion heart thing ,love to know more!

Difers Wed 04-Oct-06 20:38:34

Hi all,

I got the Baby whisperer book first, but it's not for me because it can involve picking baby up and putting baby down lots before it works and physically I can't do that. It also suggests other people help and I don't have that kind of help. DH not into nights and sleeps in another room.

I do sleep log times in the dark on a scrap of paper and then transfer to neat page next day.

Sleep wellXX

sweetkitty Wed 04-Oct-06 21:14:57

She was grizzling all through dinner and bathtime and went to sleep after a feed at 7.30pm, out for the count now we will see what the night brings.

No afternoon nap even when I took them out in the pram for a walk for 40 minutes. At least we got loads of fresh air.

Wishing us all a peaceful night xx

BikeBug Wed 04-Oct-06 21:35:22

I hope everyone is having a good evening / night so far...
Ds has just dropped off after just over an hour of bouncing, giggling, clawing mummy's nose, trying to stand up in the cot, being fed, cuddled, carried, stroked... I'm not sure how this looks as an evening routine, but it's pretty typical. But we're not feeding to sleep any more
The thing about needing a swimming pool for before bedtime exercise - soooo true. Pending my big lottery win (still waiting...), why aren't water babies classes at 7pm?

iris66 Thu 05-Oct-06 08:42:01

moljam - I don't use music during the day but I've used it since birth at night. I use "Music for Reiki Healing" by Llewellyn - purely as he seemed to "relax" when I played it when I was pg.
I co-sleep too, more often than not. I wasn't exactly planning it & he went into his cot in his own room at 4 months (or thereabouts) but it seems to have panned out that he sleeps better with me now.
God knows how I'm going to get him to sleep in his cot all night but for now I'm just focussing on him sleeping - anywhere

Difers - I don't think I'm going to do the PUPD as he's just getting too heavy & it kills my back just doing it when he has a bad night before 10 (I'm short & he can stand up so the cot base is on the lowest setting.)

Bikebug - pool would be fab here too (so any spare on the lottery win.... )

Sweetkitty - hope your night went well. It sounds like you got off to a good start. I'm sure I read somewhere that babies who get an hour of fresh air each day sleep better at night.

DS was awake every 30 minutes or so from 7.15 'til 10 when I took him to bed with me (plans for a relaxing bath went out the window & DH was banished to DS's room again!) but he was reasonably well settled & only woke fully a couple of times needing to latch on until 7.30 this morning - I feel quite refreshed!

Has anyone had any success with introducing a "lovey"? The knotted belt of my dressing gown is still going strong & I've been trying to give him that first when he stirs in the night (only when he's in with me though) it seemed to keep him happy for an extra 1/2 hour this morning. I may unravel it, cut it in half & make two so I've got an emergency spare before he gets too used to it's size.

Anyway - onwards & upwards. I'd better get dressed & do something!! good luck for long naps all

danceswithbaby Thu 05-Oct-06 09:05:45

Moljam, the slumber bear is a bear aimed at newborns. You attach it to the crib and any sound/movement they make triggers it to play a 5 minute recording of sounds taken from the womb. I think it works better than white or pink noise. The 5 minute limit was annoying which is why we've made it loop.

Longer day naps seem to have made it harder to get ds down at night. Went through bedtime routine as usual but she was still looking perky. Eventually dh was reduced to running up and down the stairs with dd waggling her little legs and practicing "BWUH" sounds. Would have been hysterical if I hadn't been so knackered.

She got there in the end and she actually threw in a couple of 2 hour stints, followed by the obligatory suckathon and a couple of 75 minute stints. A very marginal improvement, so maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel after all.

Glad some of you had better nights.

sweetkitty Thu 05-Oct-06 12:46:17

Well it was a blip, last night went like this:

7.30pm out like a light
11pm woke up BF back to sleep (tried the shhing patting on the back etc but was so tired I caved in)
1am BF back to sleep
3am BF back to sleep
4am BF back to sleep
6am she got up just after DP and never went back to sleep had a bit of a BF and lay and giggled, DD1 woke at just before 7 too (unlike her) so all in all I'm feeling like a bag of crap today coupled with DD1 regressing with her toilet training (last count 5 pees, 1 poo on the floor)!

Have tried introducing a comforter but she's not for having it so far, have also tried muslin soaked in BM too.

Anyway I'm off for some lunch now.

moljam Thu 05-Oct-06 15:50:59

thankyou,i recieved email from ncss.very helpful hints,will defiantly be buying book!no nap this morning until i paid £2 for baby lunch group and he slept whole way through,never mind had gossip with other mums.i feel a little calmer today,yesterday i feel i was close to desperate!thankyou.so you dont feel slumber bear would suit 9 month old?we used sounds of nature cd lastnight and tried for nap this morning!

danceswithbaby Thu 05-Oct-06 16:25:27

Dunno about slumber bear sound for a 9 month old. It's thought that they don't even start to recover from womb loss until 9 months, so it might. It's a nice soothing sound anyway. I'm happy to e-mail it to you if you want a listen.

danceswithbaby Thu 05-Oct-06 16:55:21

Moljam, I can't actually think of a good way to e-mail the slumber-bear sounds to you without making e-mail adress public. There is a website called www.motherandbabymusic.com which seems to be based on womb/heartbeat sounds. The demo sounds pretty good. It's about £9.99 a cd. If I could e-mail you mine you could have it for nothing!

BikeBug Thu 05-Oct-06 17:23:53

sweetkitty - must have been something in the air last night, it was a so-n-so of a night for us too - between loosing his covers (so getting cold and waking up twice), being hungry (so waking up twice) and being full of wind from all the eating (so waking up once, but very loudly) we thought we'd had the worst of the night, but then come 5 am he thought it was daytime. Poor dh had to get up and go to work at 6, so we were sitting up in bed protecting our cups of tea from a very lively baby at 5.30 this morning....
Iris - I've tried to introduce his mothercare rabbit as a lovey (because I like it ) but he doesn't seem interested. Maybe I just picked the wrong thing?

iris66 Thu 05-Oct-06 18:00:09

Bikebug - I tried EBM soaked muslins and a commercial style comforter/mini blanket thing before giving him the belt from my dressing gown (I shove it in between my boobs for a bit each evening & put it between us whilst he has his last feed) I think he only likes it (and I use that word loosely!) because he's been used to feeling the material since birth every night.

moljam - I think I need to take a leaf out of your book - I'd given up going to mums & babies as it coincided with his nap times (not that I've become obsessed with getting him to sleep or anything ) Daytime socialising has been virtually non existant for weeks. Note to self....

Sweetkitty - Aw honey - you must be knackered However.... 7.30-11.00? Progress?!

tomorrow is another day

Difers Thu 05-Oct-06 20:03:23

Bikebug - Have you tried Grobags?? www.grobags.co.uk though jojomamanbebe have some nice ones too. They can't get out of em so stay warm all night.

Difers Thu 05-Oct-06 20:05:42

Bikebug - You can pick em up second hand on ebay too! I got my third one for £6 and it's lovely!

cheekymummy Thu 05-Oct-06 22:45:19

Sweetkitty - thanks so much for telling me about this thread - it's fantastic !!

Hello everyone, I can't believe how many of us are singing from the same song sheet, I really thought I was the only one (or so my health visitor made me feel). So I am not such a bad mum after all !! I hope you don't mind me joining in with you all. I have an 8 month old DS who really is a cutie during the day and turns into something else during the night !! As it hapens the last two nights haven't been as bad as usual but I'm not holding my breath. I am still breast feeding him and he seems to only go to sleep whilst feeding and through shere exhaustion - but it looks like many of us have the same problem. And then he too wakes between 4 and 6 times during the night - great isn't it. I hope you all have a good night with your little ones fast asleep.

bottomburp Thu 05-Oct-06 23:46:46

sweetkitty-thanks for rec this thread to cheeky, i feel so much better reading everyones messages, i hope its ok to share my experiences....
DD is 6mths old and from being 4wks old and discovering the grobag slept from 8pm to 4am,quick feed (am BFg) then asleep until 7am.then 6wks ago we moved house, went on a wk hols 2days laterand she caught a cold, since then we are on:slepp between 7and 8pm, wake at midnight then every hour after, needs BFg to go bk to sleep and usually around 5am wide awake in a grumpy mood.as you can see from late hour of this thread i just cant go to bed early.is a v.bad habit from before being a mum where i used to read/bake til 1am and then sleep.now tend to go to bed after midnight waking.

for daytime naps i have a BRILLIANT cd from putumayo music called dreamtime lullabies and soothing songs, s'one bought it for me when she was 1day old and we have always played it if she gets a bit hyper, it works well on adults too.

i have just bought a kaloo comforter to try her with that at night but in meantime someone gave us the big blue dog from ELC that hangs over cotside,its head detaches and when i unlatch her and put her in the cot she squashes her face onto it, i think i8t must feel like a big booby!

i have done the sleep hygiene thingy where her cot has nothing in it apart from booby dogs head so all very unstimulating, i take her mobile down(think that defo helped) and make sure the bit of bedroom she can see from her cot is tidy!

but at end of day am sad that nights are so horrid, how can i love her so much when she makes me feel like death very lightly warmed up?

danceswithbaby Fri 06-Oct-06 10:00:34

Feel like I have been dead & dug up. After the 6th waking before midnight I stopped counting.

She did this wierd thing sometime during the night where she sat up, started crawling down the bed, keeled over, face planted then snoozed in that position for 10 mins. Do you think she's sleep crawling?

Going to take her swimming again then join her for a nap. It'd better be a long one.

moljam Fri 06-Oct-06 10:31:53

last night was bed at 6.30(he couldnt wait any longer)but up at 8,9 ,11,1,3 and then 7!he had suck of bottle and thats it!put cd on each time he woke ,dont know if it'll work or hes just knackered!this mornings nap was 5 minutes on my chest!is putiing my email adress on here not safe?ive put it on selling and buying bit before?

moljam Fri 06-Oct-06 10:34:04

just rembered,forgot to say hes defiantly teething so could explain lack of sleep poor monkey,poor mummy!

Lucy1977 Fri 06-Oct-06 10:57:06

Hi ladies

Wow, there are so many of us with babies that wake so frequently during the night. I thought DD was in the minority as all my friends with babies have had them sleeping through since about 6-8 wks (well I know they could just be saying that but they're always full of energy and out and about at 9am whereas I'm still in PJs thinking when can I catch up with some sleep!).

I haven't read anything about the No Cry Sleep Solution but is it like Controlled Crying but where you're not letting baby cry it out?
We're trying CC but I can't bear to hear DD cry for extended periods so end up going into her very often.

I am trying to stop the night time breastfeeds as I feel confident DD (8 months) is not hungry but just looking for comfort. Is the NCSS one way of achieving this?

Thanks for any advice

Lucy

bottomburp Fri 06-Oct-06 11:11:33

the only thing that helped a teeny bit was going swimming in the late afternoon cos if swim in the morning effect has worn off by night

sweetkitty Fri 06-Oct-06 12:08:02

hi newbies would say welcome but if your on this thread you are probably at your wits end. Well we had a great night last night - not!

Had our usual night routine last BF at 7.30pm, took her up to her cot and she wouldn't go to sleep was crawling all over the place. Lay with her until 9 when I wanted to go and do other things so brought her back downstairs (I know bad Mummy but I need to do things at night and can't leave her in her cot as she'll scream and wake DD1). Took her back up at 10 another feed and still no sleep, about 11 she did fall asleep minus boob but on my arm, 30 mins and a dead arm later tried to move her and you guessed it she woke up, another 30 mins of shhing and I gave in and gave her a feed just so I could get some sleep.

1am woke BF
4am woke BF
6am woke BF (these are approx don't clock watch)
8.30am woke up for the day

Think last night was because she had a 2 1/2 hour nap in the day so wasn't tired at night. NCSS is waiting at the PO for me but to be honest after reading everything on here I think the plan will be: decorate her room, put her cot in there and do the whole cold turkey thing, no BFs are 7.30pm probably in about a month. It's a shame as I love BFing and cosleeping but it's just getting too much. Either that or DP will be in the spare room as he's fed up getting kung-fu kicked in the night.

Compare this to DD1 who came back from toddlers and asked to go to bed (gets this from me).

iris66 Fri 06-Oct-06 14:04:23

Hi there all & welcome to the newbies (sorry you had to join us though)there's obviously something in the air

Hideous night last night - not helped that DS's gums either side of his top teeth are all red (oh the joy of more teething on top of this ) The past 2 nights he's been bf so much that he's less hungry during the day now too so I'm rapidly getting stuck between a rock & a hard place.

Sweetkitty - I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm going to have to go cold turkey too. DH is away until Tue & we've got DS's naming day in a fortnight so I may have a chat when he gets back & see whether he fancies doing it before or after. I've a lump in my throat just thinking about it as I know it's going to be really really hard but I'm just sooo bloody tired all the time

moljam Fri 06-Oct-06 14:21:11

ds just had hour and half nap in pushchair as was suggested in email from ncss!i fell asleep on floor!it suggested to get naps in pushchair then gradually to cot or bed,how would i do this?i get the gradually moving pushchair out of room but what then?he has a comfort toy which is a little cow,he holds its hand or tail when dropping off!at the moment just having a nap is fab!

sweetkitty Fri 06-Oct-06 14:57:39

Iris - I'm just going cold turkey from the BFing and whilst we are at it I thought it would be a good time to get her into her own room (a kind of double whammy) either DP or I will sleep on the floor next to her cot and comfort her when she cries so she is never left by herself. Kind of like PU/PD baby whisperer probably pick up to start with then gradually stop picking her up. My rationale is once she realises theres no boob theres no point in waking up. Going to be hard going but worth it in the end (keep telling myself that anyway). DP is going to take a week off work when we do it so that whoever has been on night shift can have a nap in the afternoon.

I'm trying to introduce a toy to DD2 as well not working so far

happygolucky22 Fri 06-Oct-06 15:28:19

hey my dd pretty much took herself of breast feeding once i went back to work and she stared having bottles, it took a couple of months for her to do it but i just gradually replaced her bf with bottles and she was away,sleeps through the night now most nights from 8 till 8 its so nice. i also found that only giving her water at night instead of milk helped no ends. hope this helped a bit.

iris66 Fri 06-Oct-06 16:08:11

happygolucky22 - thanks for the advice but unfortunately DS will only drink water from a bottle/cup. He's never accepted formula (and believe me I've tried!)and I've always struggled to express any amount worth having (even worse now I'm feeding all night too!)

Sweetkitty - should have clarified (sorry)- just aiming to go cold turkey on the co-sleeping/night bf thing. I've tried water but he can smell the milk so it doesn't work. DH is going to have to settle him at night after I've put him down & stay with him (similar thing to you. Trouble is that, as it's always been me going to him at night, the last time we tried it he was hysterical so I gave up after 2 nights.

I have a sneaking suspicion that DS will give me a couple of good nights so I'll change my mind & carry on as we are....

momomama Fri 06-Oct-06 19:11:04

I've been 'away' for a couple of days and came back expecting everyone to have made loads of progress (and to feeling extremely jealous) but it seems we're all in the same boat. I had a couple of days off NCSS and tried to just chill out, get as much sleep as possible and not think about it too much. I'd recommend it!
I'm basically going to start again with the logs and try and identify any patterns before making any more decisions about the way forward. I've achieved virtually nothing with this strategy so need some results (from me or anyone on this thread) in order to keep it up. I TOTALLY sympathise Iris and sweetkitty and I'll maybe be joining you!

BikeBug Fri 06-Oct-06 19:21:49

hello again all, I just want to dispense huge hugs all round, it seems like so many of us have had a totally pants few days . I'm not even going to detail last night as it was so awful - I'm knackered now, dh is running ds's bath, and I have all my fingers crossed for a better night for all of us...
Difers, ta for the growbag idea - used to swear by them but he started getting very tangled up in them and grew out of all the 0-6 month ones and they are just so expensive. But if I can find one for £6 I might give it another go!

moljam Fri 06-Oct-06 20:31:33

bikebug,i got summer one on ebay for £4 including p and p.i think theyre great especially for cosleeping families.

moljam Fri 06-Oct-06 20:32:41

forgot to say,will be getting 2.5 tog soon before prices shoot back up!LO will wear pink if its cheapest!he wont care!

bottomburp Fri 06-Oct-06 20:49:07

iris am also having prob of so much booby at night that dont ever seem to have full boobs in day anymore, am expecting a hideous night as DD has only had 2 big feeds all day.plus she was totally hyper going to bed which usually means up about 9.30pm first of all and then never really gets back to sleep properly.

i know she should have a very calm routine going to bed but ours is usually, walk dog and DD 6-7pm, home, bath, low lights, dreamtime cd etc in room but usually has mad trying to crawl around on the floor for 20mins, i figure this uses up energy but then also wonder if this is overtired and should i catch her earlier?then feed and fall asleep on boob, when snoring put her into cot with dogs head toy(bizarre i know), creep out [eternally optimistic emoticon].
in the day am now leaving her to cry in cot for her morning nap, she rubs eyes when tired so put her in and she cried for 8 mins today and finally went to sleep with dogs head toy right over face so then i stayed in room in case couldnt breathe!!!i hate the crying but desperately want her to be able to fall asleep in her cot, have friends with babies same age who go into cot AWAKE and gurgling to self and then fall asleep within 10mins
afternoon nap disaster as i fell asleep feeding her so she was in bed with me.

bottomburp Fri 06-Oct-06 20:49:13

iris am also having prob of so much booby at night that dont ever seem to have full boobs in day anymore, am expecting a hideous night as DD has only had 2 big feeds all day.plus she was totally hyper going to bed which usually means up about 9.30pm first of all and then never really gets back to sleep properly.

i know she should have a very calm routine going to bed but ours is usually, walk dog and DD 6-7pm, home, bath, low lights, dreamtime cd etc in room but usually has mad trying to crawl around on the floor for 20mins, i figure this uses up energy but then also wonder if this is overtired and should i catch her earlier?then feed and fall asleep on boob, when snoring put her into cot with dogs head toy(bizarre i know), creep out [eternally optimistic emoticon].
in the day am now leaving her to cry in cot for her morning nap, she rubs eyes when tired so put her in and she cried for 8 mins today and finally went to sleep with dogs head toy right over face so then i stayed in room in case couldnt breathe!!!i hate the crying but desperately want her to be able to fall asleep in her cot, have friends with babies same age who go into cot AWAKE and gurgling to self and then fall asleep within 10mins
afternoon nap disaster as i fell asleep feeding her so she was in bed with me.

cheekymummy Fri 06-Oct-06 22:09:25

Sorry to hear so many are having bad nights. I actually lost count in the end of how many times my DS woke last night and I just tried to get him back off by BFing, rocking, singing (not good !!), walking around - anything at all . I hope tonight will be a little better, could really do with a couple of hours sleep just for my sanity !! I admire all who are trying to go cold turkey with BF let me know how you get on and I might try it.

sweetkitty my DS is in his cot in our room at the moment you really must let me know how you get on with DD going into her own room - hope the move goes well

Anyway, wishing all of you a good night and hopefully more of these faces tomorrow instead of - good luck everyone. x

happygolucky22 Fri 06-Oct-06 23:32:13

hi so sorry my advice couldnt help you. i actually done the controlled crying thing which whas worked pretty well for me, it is bloody hard going and i cant count the amount of times i felt like given up, have you tried someone else giving him milk, i had alot of trouble expressing to got 2 oz out in about 2 hours great fun! i also find that driving her around up and down a dual carriage way sends her right of, maybe you can try that.

iris66 Sat 07-Oct-06 07:57:50

morning all
(cheekymummy - I've taken your comment to heart )

Well, having done a bit of revision (for that read..actually looked at the book properly again)I'm feeling a bit more positive today and for once I think it may be actually because there is something in the air (a full moon to be precise - sign of new beginnings)

Anyway I've girded my metaphorical loins and will not be beaten !!

DESPITE the fact that....
I gave DS a bit of haddock last night with his tea & it made him itch like mad all night.
- but am I upset? NO!

DS woke up at:
8.00
8.30
9.10 snuuffly & itchy
9.45 took him into my bed
10.15 cold flannels on itchy legs
11.00 choking on snot so can't latch on for very long
repeated at various points through the night
5.30 tadaaaaaaaa time to get up!!

- but am I upset? NO!

and even though I feel like crap, my skin is grey and spotty & AF arrived this morning with much pain and floodiness...

- Am I upset? NO

Some may say that I've finally lost it but I just say BAH!

By the way - I've noticed that DS is napping much much better since I've stuck rigidly to the same nap times 10.30 & 3.00. I hardly need to bf him to sleep now - may try putting him to sleep in his cot rather than pram today (but not awake - I'm not that brave yet!!)

moljam Sat 07-Oct-06 10:47:34

he woke once and went straight back to sleep!sorry to boast but i woke at 6 feeling amazing!probably wont happen again ever!

BikeBug Sat 07-Oct-06 11:55:03

good morning all, moljam what an excellent night for you! Long may it continue! Iris, flinkin' blip (as mintsauce the mtb sheep used to say, for anyone who was into mountain biking about 10 years ago...). You have indeed put on your happy face . Know what you mean about the snuffling - ds has his first real cold (the joys of bf - he's 7 months and this is the first one!), and he cannot breath for snuffling, his face is covered in snot and he woke many times in the night. He's gone very strange - doesn't want to feed in the night, doesn't want a cuddle, just a bit of a cry and back to sleep.

Here's to new beginnings (raises cup of peppermint tea). Am now off to source a bargain grobag on ebay to go with last weeks bargain ClwtTwt nappy!

danceswithbaby Sat 07-Oct-06 13:37:56

Lots of you have got older children, right? How did you get them to sleep? Did they have the same waking problem, or is it just some babies?

I'm definitely seeing some progress with the naps by the way.

iris66 Sat 07-Oct-06 15:43:11

moljam - fab news!! good luck for tonight!!

danceswithbaby - I didn't co-sleep with DD. I bf then put her straight back into her carrycot every time & shushed her alot. She always had naps in her cot & slept whole nights fairly early I seem to remember (17 years ago) She was in her own room at about 3 months. Why I decided to do things differently this time I'll never know. well, yes I do actually - lack of memory & didn't think!!

momomama Sat 07-Oct-06 17:39:57

Well Iris at least your wee darling is consistent.
Moljam wow!!!!! Did you do anything different or do we have a genuine miracle?
Just about to put DD in a bath then bed. hoping for her to actually sleep like a baby before she's not one anymore!

Difers Sat 07-Oct-06 20:07:08

Hi Guys, I have had two pants nights following what initially seemed like progress. But this solution isn't a quck fix thing is it? It's about changing own habits as much as really cute baby's habits. I am off to sleep early and I hope you all have great a great night tonight.

cheekymummy Sat 07-Oct-06 20:45:47

Ha, ha can't believe how many and there are !! My night seemed to be a little better last night and after reading all your comments about grobags (I'd never heard of them) I went out to get one today and my little DS is sound asleep at the moment. When I was buying the grobag I lost count of how many mums came up to me telling me what a life saver it was for them when they bought one. Now it's either got something to do with the full moon or it really is true - lets wait and see how tonight goes. I am also waiting on the delivery of my book (the no cry sleep solution) which i am looking forward to reading - which are the best chapters or is the whole book great ??

I really enjoy reading all your encounters and am so glad that I am not in the minority with sleepless nights etc. etc. Thanks guys for making me feel half human again

Hope you all have a peacefull night, especially you moljam this is possibly the beginning of something new for you.

cheekymummy Sat 07-Oct-06 20:50:21

Ha, ha can't believe how many and there are !! My night seemed to be a little better last night and after reading all your comments about grobags (I'd never heard of them) I went out to get one today and my little DS is sound asleep at the moment. When I was buying the grobag I lost count of how many mums came up to me telling me what a life saver it was for them when they bought one. Now it's either got something to do with the full moon or it really is true - lets wait and see how tonight goes. I am also waiting on the delivery of my book (the no cry sleep solution) which i am looking forward to reading - which are the best chapters or is the whole book great ??

I really enjoy reading all your encounters and am so glad that I am not in the minority with sleepless nights etc. etc. Thanks guys for making me feel half human again

Hope you all have a peacefull night, especially you moljam this is possibly the beginning of something new for you.

cheekymummy Sat 07-Oct-06 20:51:17

Sorry about the double posting - I am going mad !!

dizzybint Sat 07-Oct-06 20:58:13

been watching this thread over the last few days deciding whether to say hello or not so here i am HELLO! yes i'm doing ncss too. my problems don't seem as bad as a lot of you, but it's still not as i'd like it. dd nearly 5 months, bf to sleep, put her down in her cot with eyes shut and almost asleep, she then wakes every 3 hours exactly for a 7 minute bf, then back to sleep. she tries very hard to get herself back to sleep but just can not do it, needs bf. then in the day she isnt very hungry as she's fed so much in the night. so she doesnt take enough of a feed in the day to get sleepy. daytime naps happen in the car or pram or rocked on my legs, and never last more than 1 hour, 3 times a day. i can't stand the screaming if i try things in any other way, tried no bf at night, tried dh seeing to her, tried putting her in cot at various times etc etc, tried dummies, bottles etc etc, all get chewed. so i'm plodding on.. at least i'm not on my own.

bottomburp Sat 07-Oct-06 23:19:07

but only because big glass of wine has put it there.know is going to be hideous night as DD only had 1.5 decent booby sessions today. last night woke 5 times for longish time each time then awake for playing at 6am, first thought on waking up was i cant wait to go to bed tonight!have waded thru the day with legs of mud, actually had lovely day as friends come to stay with us in Lakes with their kids who my DD loves.DD has woken up twice so far and taken a while to go to sleep but is waking up snotty and then waking up more when am trying to get nose drops down her. how does a 6mth old swivel her head so quickly and her nostrils definately get smaller when the nose drops come out!hope new moon heralds good beginnings,am off to amazon to buy NCSS, good night all.

danceswithbaby Sun 08-Oct-06 11:16:54

It's the last day of week 1 on my 'fill her belly, wear her out, extend the naps' plan.

The 'fill her belly' part is working a bit. I think we're swinging back towards taking more calories during the day than at night. This has brought a problem in that when she tries to keep suckling at night and is just so full she retches, instead of just going back to sleep she sits up and gets distressed.

The 'wear her out' part has definitely helped with extending the naps. She now seems much more willing to get back to sleep after the initial half-hour wake up. She's now having at least one or two long naps a day, and one or two cat-naps.

It's hard to say if all this is affecting night-time sleep. It seems to be changing in that she sleeps worse 8pm-12 then better from midnight to wake-up. Still haven't had a sleep stretch longer than 2.5 hours though! She's also waking later - 7-7.30-am instead of 6am.

I'm going to stick with this plan for 2 more weeks. Anyone else seen improvement over the week?

Iris, do you think it's the co-sleeping that causes the problems then? It's hard to see what else I could have done. Right from birth she screamed when I lay her in a cot. No-one could shut her up the night she was born and the minute I put her in bed with me it was like magic. Even the disapproving midwives suggested I leave her there so we could all get some sleep!

iris66 Sun 08-Oct-06 11:46:33

dizzybint - welcome

danceswithbaby - DS was the same - he spent most of the first month going to sleep on either my or DH's chest. I should have added earlier that I don't think it's purely what we do that causes the problem. I think there's a huge element of each baby naturally settling in a particular way & they train us (sleep deprived and wanting an easy life) to accommodate them. It has merely transpired that they way they want/need to be nurtured doesn't fit into our current lifestyles (if we were all nocturnal or insomnialcs this night waking wouldn't be an issue, right? )

All things considered (serious snot/sneezing problem & waking every 30 mins until 11!)I think we had a reasonable night last night and overall I do believe things have improved !(am not going to read back my previous posts in case I'm wrong but I'm feeling positive today so forgive me if I'm quietly deluding myself!!).

DS still has 2 naps per day but they've lengthened slightly so he gets between 1.5 & 2 hrs sleep (afternoon nap is significantly better)
He still goes down well around 7.30ish
although he's waking more atm it's not for long (used to be for hours) and he is resettleable for about 11 hours (give or take the odd night) but then he is in our bed more now.

My plan for the next week is to banish DH to DS room & continue to co-sleep (from early hours only if he wakes) but as far away from DS as possible to get him used to being more "alone" in bed.

Anyone else got a game plan?

iris66 Sun 08-Oct-06 11:50:26

bottomburp - I blame you entirely for my "insomnialc" typo My current dream is a lazy evening quaffing vats of wine (& obviously not having to bf/get up to DS until late morning)ahhhhhhh

moljam Sun 08-Oct-06 13:03:59

lastnight ds woke once soaked through!changed and rolled over back to sleep till 6 am!we chucked out cot!think that might help,he doesnt have to cry to say its cosleeping time.also leaving reloax cd on repeat.
i have dd-6,ds 5 plus ds-10 months.the older 2 never slept well til about 2 years ago!we were made to feel guilty about cosleeping and so had big fights every night!im worried about dh sticking to routine when i go away at weekend.

BikeBug Sun 08-Oct-06 15:50:14

I'm struggling badly at the moment with ds's terrible cold - really hardly slept last night and will only nap upright in his sling - fine for him, but where's my rest!? Hopefully he will get better soon and we can get back on track.

Iris, best of luck with the game plan - I often take ds to co-sleep in the spare bed (a big double futon) so he gets used to sleeping with me but further away, problem is I'm not consistent because I miss dh and our bed, so can't say if it works... Danceswithbaby - midwives suggested co-sleeping to me too, on night one! Ds was keeping the whole postnatal ward awake I think.

Sorry I'm not engaging better with everyone's experiences - I really have never been this sleep deprived in my life, it is challenging to say the least!

moljam Sun 08-Oct-06 22:13:34

bikebug hope your lo cold gets better soon!have you tried raising his head slightly at night so he can breath better,just put folded towel or something under matress?it worked wonders with dd and ds1.also we used to dissolve a teaspoon of vicks in bowl of boiling water and put it in room.just ideas as i can know how hard it is to get any sleep with poorly child!

sweetkitty Sun 08-Oct-06 22:26:32

hi everyone had 2 nights of so so sleep Friday and Saturday, on the good side DD2 has gone to sleep without a BF on 2 occasions (don't count in the car she always falls asleep in the car), bad points she always seems to wake just as I'm going to sleep. I think we had BFs at 11, 1 and 5ish last night.

Finally I have my copy of NCSS and have read about half of it so far, sounds good and am up for it! Am going to start sleep logs tomorrow. Have decided not to move her into her own room to start with, we have a bedside cot which is up against my side of the bed usually she starts the night in there then whichever side she is feeding from she feeds and stays there. I am going to try and not fall asleep before she has finished feeding and move her back across to her cot. Will have to try and stay awake like Pantley says to do the pull off method. Plan is to start with her in her cot which shouldn't be too difficult as she is used to it then in a month put the side back up then move it away from me gradually then into her room, with me and then without me.

Other things that worry me are: DD1 and toddler groups we go Mon, Tues and Weds, out the house from 9ish to 12ish, sometimes DD2 grizzles, has a BF and a sleep whilst we are there sometimes not, don't know how this is going to affect the 2 nap stategy?

I usually BF DD2 downstairs then carry her upstairs to her cot during the day because I need to keep an eye on DD1 don't have the luxury of being able to BF her lying down. Although will be able to give her her final BF of the day upstairs in peace and quiet.

Going to start the lovey thing asap, DD1 loves her "ninny" to bits she gives DD2 hers as well.

Hopefully I will be able to work around these things. Will of course keep you all updated.

Bikebug - hope your DS is feeling better soon and you get some sleep, can you nap during the day? Twice this weekend DP has told me to go upstairs and have a lie down but I just can't switch off enough to sleep.

moljam - fingers crossed for you that DS's good sleeping continues

Iris - glad you are getting the daytime naps sorted as well

danceswithbaby - I think it's got a lot to do with each individual baby, my two DDs are chalk and cheese when it comes to everything so far especially sleep, DD1 co-slept from day 1 but was sleeping from 11-6am at 6 weeks, 7-6am at 12 weeks waking for a BF at 6am going back to sleep until 8.30-9am! At 12 months she never got up for that early morning BF and as we were down to one feed by then that was the end of BFing for us. So you can imagine the shock to the system when DD2 came along, non sleeping, always wanting milk madam that she is! I adore cosleeping and in an ideal world would have a huge bed for the two DDs, DP and I (and of course a little "special" bed just for DP and I (DD2 was actually "made" on a futon on the spare room as DD1 was still cosleeping at that point) but they just become too active in their sleep and you end up being kicked and punched all night long and no one gets any sleep. With DD1 this was when we decided she needed a bed of her own.

Better go DD2 has just awoken (first time from 8)

moljam Sun 08-Oct-06 22:38:56

sweetkitty,ive not read ncss yet,am going away on friday so waiting till i get back before buying (am having a selfish mummy weeekend away!)you mentioned getting your lo in cot and gradually moving away,what if cosleeping?does she suggest moving them away?

bottomburp Mon 09-Oct-06 10:52:58

i.e. maniac grin from 2 hideous or should i say challenging nights!cant even read sleep log from last night as wrote it on wrong side of scrap paper - all over bank statement!also whilst we have been away last week has learnt to crawl as we forgot to take her chair...sleep deprived packing is bad.anyway nothing is safety proofed so couldnt even lie on floor next to her while she played today[very tired face].

i love the sound of the bedside cot sweetkitty, i really wanted one but in old house had no space at sides of bed. the moving further away slowly sounds great.
bikebug my DD has just had bad snots week, every morning she has come in the shower with me, i have got shower room as steamy as poss beforehand and it really helps.i also used a lot of calpol cos she was so miserable.oh and the sterile saline nose drops.i think you can prop ends of cot up on yello pages to help sinus drainage.
iris - i love being an insomnialc, its such a fitting term!i love my late night chilling time, keeps me sane.

DDs comforter has arrived courtesy of e bay so am going to put it in our bed for a few nights first, have high hopes for this teddy attached to blanket thingy!at least have back up as NCSS book should arrive so can put all hopes on that next! what to do when all ideas run out

sweetkitty Mon 09-Oct-06 14:37:36

moljam - she has suggestions for whatever you want to do going forward whether it be cosleeping, own cot, own room, BFing, bottlefeeding, dummy or no dummy. DD2 is used to sleeping in her cot for part of the night, she usually starts off in there then ends up next to me on whatever side I am feeding her on. But she is such a wriggler that it's disrupting DP and I's sleep so we feel it's time for her to go it alone in her own bed. We will start off next to me but the plan is over time we will put her further apart then finally into her own room to sleep throughout the night

Last night was a good night all in all, after that stirring I gave her a 5 min BF and that was her until 5am this morning, felt a bit more human this morning as well. Would be delighted with just a 5am wakening for a feed.

momomama Mon 09-Oct-06 18:22:12

Hiya everyone, especially newbies. Well this old NCSS is certainly testing my resilience! its bloody hard work. I settled down on sat night for the x factor (as I've discovered the brain cannot function beyond very low levels of activity when one is sleep deprived) only be back up again no not once, not twice but 6 times. When I checked the clock and seen it was only 9.30pm I thought sod it I might as well go to bed too if this is how its going to be all night. It actually calmed down with DD only waking another 4-5 times I think. It all becomes one big blur after a while.
Poor soul bikebug, you sound in need of some TLC, all I can say is you are certainly surrounded by people who understand on this thread.
Iris I agree with you philosophy - don't look back, so onwards and upwards.
Incidently on the upside I think the unlatching thingie is working verrrrrrrry gradually, DD actually has started to sleep sometimes without sucking which I think is MAJOR and the key to her learning to go back to sleep on her own, so stick with it girls. Also the wakenings are shorter even if there are still too many, like some of you other co-sleepers I wonder if my DD is one of the 'special cases' when she cannot possibly be expected to sleep with mummy, smell the milk and resist a nibble - maybe we need to try using the cot all night

danceswithbaby Tue 10-Oct-06 13:23:43

Iris and Sweetkitty, thanks for feedback. Your dd1's sound like the sort of baby I was expecting to have. She was supposed to lay in her crib kicking and gurgling while I whafted around the house vacuuming, in high heels and full make up.

Moljam, I hope you had a great weekend away. That's just what I could do with. The same as I could do with a third arm and detatchable boobs.... Ain't going to happen!

HBO Tue 10-Oct-06 13:58:20

Hello! Am totally new to mumsnet so not sure exactly what to do but gonna give it a try! Needing some ideas/advice for our desperate evening situation! My baby is 4 and half months old. He's doing mostly really well - has good naps in the day and settles well at 10pm and usually sleeps through until 7am. Our big problem is the evening time. He's obviously tired, but after a sleep of about 30-45 mins at 7pm, he will wake up and cry until we pick him up and cuddle him to sleep. Am pretty sure it's not colic as tried just holding him for about 5 evenings in a row and he slept soundly and he also sleeps all evening if we are travelling in the car anywhere. Also have ruled out hunger and don't think wind. In the past he has managed to get himself into a routine of sleeping in the evenings, but as soon as we spend the evening somewhere else (eg at a friends with him in the travel cot) he goes back to his old routine of crying most of the evening again for a couple of weeks until sleep routine sets in again. Help! Have totally run out of ideas! THANKYOU!!

sweetkitty Tue 10-Oct-06 15:13:33

Last night as follows (after good 2 1/2 hour nap in the daytime)
7.10pm fell asleep in DP's arms after being really restless after her bath (don't think she has ever fallen asleep on DP)
7.40pm took her upstairs she woke had BF, was almost asleep then woke up and didn't fall asleep until 8.50pm
11.15pm woke BF back to sleep
1.00am woke rubbed back fell back asleep
3.15am woke BF back to sleep
6.05 woke BF back to sleep
7.30am up for the day

So far today she has only had a 50 minute nap, this is supposed to be far too little for a 9 month old. Will see how tonight fairs.

DWB - I agree it was so good with DD1 that at 9 months I was like "great lets have another" but it's true you never get two the same. DD1 doesn't eat much though and likes nothing, DD2 refuses nothing so far so they all have their good and bad points. Just as well they are so lovely when they are awake makes all the no sleeping worth it.

HBO - welcome to the thread, sounds like your LO is like a lot of babies, their sleep goes in cycles and when they reach a cycle that's just below wakening they wake up (unlike adults who just doze off again). If he falls asleep on you nice and cosy then wakes up an hour later he's wondering where you are. Hope that makes sense (v sleep deproved today) we are all following a book called No cry sleep solution fingers crossed it is going to work for us all.

HBO Tue 10-Oct-06 16:49:26

Hi Sweetkitty. That does make sense! Will check out the book you suggest, Thanks!

bottomburp Tue 10-Oct-06 23:53:36

and no wine tonight asbeen to gym and always very healthy for first evening after. we had the best night for us in weeks last night, woke 12.30am BF bk to sleep, then 3.15 bf but woke up when put her back in cot so rubbed back for 15mins (felt like hours) then woke and grizzled for 15mins at 6am but ent bk to sleep until 8am, hurrah!cant imagine why it happened as didnt do anything gd yesterday!have been to music class and head over heels today so hoping she is a bit tired [head turning to watch pigs fly by].

moljam Wed 11-Oct-06 09:21:59

danceswithbabies,thanks,havent gone yet,going first thing friday.have you not seen special offer on spare arms in asda?
last night was BAD ,by midnight i lost count of how many times id been up.ds has cold though(just in time to make me feel guilty about going away)so we just cuddled and patted alnight.dh slept through and complained when i woke him at 6 so i could have hour in bed,i wasnt very polite to him.!now tired and ds is grumpy(poor man) and dd is sick and off school.only ds1 in good mood this morning.

sweetkitty Wed 11-Oct-06 12:14:22

Another bad one last night

bed 7.30pm (after 50 min nap all day yesterday so she was exhausted)
8.30 up patted back back to sleep
9.15 up patted back back to sleep
11.15 up patted back for 30 mins then too exhausted so BF her
12ish up patted back back to sleep
1ish same
3 BF
6 BF
up at 8 this morning

argh it's horrendous but on the positive side sometimes she doesn't need boob to go back to sleep

Last night of sleep logs tonight then we can start on "THE PLAN"

How's everyone else doing? I want to hear success stories

iris66 Wed 11-Oct-06 13:52:54

Sweetkitty it sounds like you're really making progress!! yay

Been a funny few days here. DS now sleeps better but is coming in with me earlier (9ish) He only woke briefly a couple of times last night and I managed to shush & pat him to sleep on one of those. He's seriously snotty though & has a new tooth through with another on the way imminently (top ones either side of the front two)so I'm not pushing too hard on things.

Daytime naps are brill though!!! he slept from 1015 - 12.30 today and woke up so happy. I'm sure this is making a difference.

momomama - it is a real slowly slowly isn't it but if the wake ups are shorter then eventually they'll disappear I'm sure.

moljam Wed 11-Oct-06 13:57:19

for those of you who cosleep,where and how do your lo nap?ds sleeps on me,should i put him in bed?should i lay with him?

iris66 Wed 11-Oct-06 16:16:56

moljam - if I'm home I tend to wimp out & bf him to sleep then put him in his pram (keep meaning to put him in his cot but haven't got round to it yet) He'll go off if I take him for a walk or if we're in the car too.

I got his naps longer by bf him to sleep in bed with me & staying with him & relatching as soon as he stirred. I then moved on to letting him sleep on me downstairs & then shushing/rocking as soon as he stirred to make him drop off again. It took a couple of weeks or so to get him used to sleeping longer but (fingers crossed) it seems to have worked. HTH

Just here to add solidarity! Have you tried putting him down (awake) when he shows signs of tiredness (whinging, pulling ears, rubbing eyes etc) with a little routine eg putting a musical toy/mobile on, giving him a fave toy to cuddle etc and break the feed=sleep cycle.

BBWBabeLisa Wed 11-Oct-06 20:16:23

Not sure if it's safe to pop my head round the door here, being one of the smug 7-7'ers from the January thread (altho Lola's always been more of an 8-8'er! *waves to Iris & SK & wtwta*
Having caught croup at the weekend Lola's sleep pattern has gone a bit haywire the last few days, so I'm searching for solutions to nip it in the bud.
She goes to sleep fine after her bath and bottle as always, but is waking again up to an hour later and is impossible to settle. She's only been having a couple of short naps during the day, and not settling to sleep properly til after midnight. Today I put her in her cot at the first sign of post-lunch tiredness, and she slept for 3 hours!! Really hoping this'll make her easier to settle tonight.

Difers Wed 11-Oct-06 20:47:51

Hi Guys,

Well, I've done the ten day log and haven't seen much improvement. I'm certainly not always organised about the naps and feel like I haven't really implemented the plan as I should have. I do think that I've had some sucess with diminishing the suck to sleep association (Boobmerchant)and developing key words. No sucess with the lovey though. Perishing Ee-eaw!

Difers Thu 12-Oct-06 08:34:14

Well, maybe my webmoaning helped but he slept from 7.30pm to 4.45am last night. THAT'S 9.15 HOURS IN TOTAL.....I've been leaping around the living in glee as I had AT LEAST 6 HOURS of interupted sleep for the first time in about 5 months. Maybe this no cry thing is not so bad after all. How's everyone else doing today????

iris66 Thu 12-Oct-06 09:08:04

Difers - yay!!!!! success!!! congratulations!!!!

DS has been waking fewer times and for a much shorter time over the past 2/3 days and not "getting up" until 7am which is fab. Still co-sleeping most of the night though which I'm hoping to knock on the head very soon, especially as he's happy to nap without me bf him now (3 hours in total yesterday )

Hope everyone else is making progress too

wherethewildthingsare / BBWBabeLisa - thanks for the support guys

danceswithbaby Thu 12-Oct-06 09:51:21

Difers, that is so great. It was just what I needed to hear after yet another awful night. I was just resigning myself to another 10 years of the same

I've finally started the sleep log. I know I'm already 11 days in but it's taken me that long to find a pen...

Moljam, DD has always napped on me until now. Since I re-started with the NCSS I've been putting her in our bed for her long nap (with guards and pillows all round). I make sure I'm there when I'm expecting her to come round, usually half an hour in, then bf her down again. So far it's worked and she's had one nap for at least an hour in bed on her own, every day for 10 days.

I can't see her EVER napping or sleeping without bf though. She's started to do this pathetic cty/whimper now, if I try to remove it before she's ready.

BikeBug Thu 12-Oct-06 10:22:37

Hi all, I'm just emerging from the world of ds's first real cold: the poor little chap is soooo snotty and has a hoarse little cry now that is heartwrenching... Anyway, just wanted to report some good news on the sleeping front (sweetkitty - a sucess story!) - we're getting much, much better evenings now (he only woke once between 8 and 11 yesterday, used to be every 45 mins...), and only once more in the night. And the night before was the same.

Now I have a dilemma - what is doing this?

Could it be the compulsory naps - into the cot every morning for nap (1), resettled if he wakes within an hour, plus an hour long walk with the pram every afternoon which seems to be the only way to get him to have nap (2)and may even help with my baby-flab. BTW moljam, even though we co-sleep at night ds is OK in the cot in the day. No idea why!

Or could it be the calpol he's been getting each evening!?

I'm hoping it's the nap regime, but at the moment I'm prepared to give him calpol every evening until he is 6 if that is what is doing this!

Next Tuesday I have my first evening out since ds (now 7 months) was born, really hoping I can get him settled regularly in the evenings as his dada will be taking over .

BikeBug Thu 12-Oct-06 10:29:02

Iris and Difers, just wanted to say yaaaay! to you and may your sucess and sleepy nights continue . Danceswithbaby, it will change, it will it will. Ds just started pushing me away one day - decided he didn't want feeding back to sleep, and we started with back rubs instead. All this will pass... (((hugs)))

moljam Thu 12-Oct-06 13:07:50

bikebug yay sounds great!have a great evening out!im being naughty and escaping for whole girlie weekend!shopping and drinking,i wont know what to do with 2 hands free!dh wont know what to do with 3 children!i really like the idea of using cot in day!ive got travel cot still so will try that!

sweetkitty Thu 12-Oct-06 13:16:51

Morning all another horrendous night here, she just cannot go more than 3 hours without waking, put her down at 7.30pm as per usual and she was up every hour until 11pm, got fed up and went to bed at 10 last night.

Daytime naps are difficult for me as I can't be there if she start to stir to plug her back in for a quick suck because of DD1. Yesterday she only had 50 mins all day

Have finished my 3 day log and am about to draw up "the plan" hope I can stay strong at 3am in the morning!

moljam - hope you have a lovely weekend

iris - daytime naps sound like they are going well, great progress on night sleeping too

Lisa/Rach - thanks for the support

BTW - hope you have a better night tonight I feel the same it's boob or nothing espcially in the wee small hours.

Difers - sounds like you have made some real progress too

Keep the success stories coming ladies

BikeBug Thu 12-Oct-06 17:22:55

moljam - I keep meaning to say it, have a fab weekend .

dizzybint Thu 12-Oct-06 17:29:35

well things seem to have started to come together last night and today. fed dd huge bf from 6pm til i put her into her cot just sleepy at 7pm. she grumbled and chattered to herself for about half an hour, no crying, just moaning and babbling. dh and i were listening in on the monitor, tense as usual. then all of a sudden. nothing but quiet snoring!! neither of us dared speak for fear of jinxing it. she then woke up again at 10pm, babbled, groaned, went back to sleep without me going to see her. midnight she woke more fully. decided she'd gone 5 hours so gave her a quick feed. back to sleep again til 5am. quick feed, back to sleep til she was up for the day at 8am!! i am still in shock. then today she had a proper nap in her cot at midday for a full hour. other naps were in pram and car. so feeling very pleased. i think it's the pull off technique that's done it. now i hope i haven't jinxed things for tonight...

Difers Thu 12-Oct-06 20:31:13

Hello all,

Bikebug - DS worst nights were on Capol so hopefully it's the NCSS that's working.
Sweetkitty - Sorry you had a bad night, hope tonight's better.
Moljam - Have a Molita for me!

moljam Thu 12-Oct-06 20:33:57

whats a molita?am i being thick?

Difers Thu 12-Oct-06 20:36:24

Bikebug - Also going for hour long walks - and it does get rid of babyflab - I've lost 3 inches off my waist in the last couple of weeks - it's not my imagination as I have an Ikea paper tape measure which has a pre baby dated mark on it. How sad am I?

moljam Thu 12-Oct-06 20:37:45

not sad clever!good thinking!

Difers Thu 12-Oct-06 20:49:47

Moljam - Molita - It's a yummy refreshing cocktail made with limes and something like rum although not sure as memory of such things has been wiped since arrival of bundle of joy .... but a mere wine or even some draught scrumpy would surely be just as inviting!

danceswithbaby Fri 13-Oct-06 11:24:45

I'm really pleased that things are working out better for some of you - gives me hope!

However, yet another bad night here. Put it this way, when I read that someone's baby wakes after just three hours I think, "Ooh, lucky you.".

Moljam - have one for me!

BikeBug Fri 13-Oct-06 14:15:52

Danceswithbaby - have hope, we used to be just the same and it is changing for us. It did go to three hourly overnight a while back (waking at roughly 11-12/2-3/5-6), but sometimes it was hourly after the 2-3am waking and in the evenings it was every 30-45 minutes for ages - we'd bath at 7, feed then put him down by 8, he'd take until 9 before he would drop off, with constant cuddles and feeds, it would be 9.30 or 10.00 before I could leave him without him waking instantly, he'd wake again 2 or 3 times before we went to bed at 11, and I didn't even used to count those ones - if we weren't in bed I didn't think of it as 'night waking' - it just sounded so bad to say he woke 7 times last night!

sweetkitty Fri 13-Oct-06 21:39:32

hi all fellow sleep deprivers

Last night was odd first one of the "pull offs" went to bed at 7.30pm shattered, up 40 mins later but went back with a back rub. Up at 11ish had a feed then I pulled her off, she doesn't whinge or reroot but turns completely away from me and falls asleep! Then she got up at 3.10am and that was her until 4.05am, she did have a poo bum as well but she was up and had 2 BFs before she finally fell asleep, back up at 6am then up for the day at 7.30am. I suppose this could be seen as progress.

Tonight she went down at 7.30pm and haven't heard a peep yet .

Am a bit about this pull-off technique so you keep pulling them off so eventually they learn to settle themselves without the boob? Surely they will only learn so far as to want the boob for a few minutes, I don't know has anyone else tried it with any success???

Anyway good sleep to us all tonight.

BikeBug Fri 13-Oct-06 22:10:03

Hi Sweetkitty, I think with pull off it's to do with them not falling asleep on the boob rather than not wanting the boob at all before sleep. It's similar to a lot of baby whisperer stuff about trying to arrange things so you are not actually holding / feeding at the moment of sleep, so the association isn't as strong. Think ds has gone overboard on this, as he wouldn't even allow a back rub when he woke at 8.15 , just wanted to know I was there and have a bit of a cry at me before falling back to sleep. Here's hoping for quite nights for all.

Mumfun Fri 13-Oct-06 22:16:07

Hi

Just here to offer support to SK and Iris.

Sorry havent had time to read and catch up but just to say hang in there.

Im still up most nights with Tara but I can see improvment. A lot recently have been due to teething poor little tootliee .

ANyway hope it gets better for you. Also hope to read more and catch up with you a bit more.

Did read the book with DS and found it good so hope it helps.

TTFN

MF

Mumfun Fri 13-Oct-06 22:16:09

Hi

Just here to offer support to SK and Iris.

Sorry havent had time to read and catch up but just to say hang in there.

Im still up most nights with Tara but I can see improvment. A lot recently have been due to teething poor little tootliee .

ANyway hope it gets better for you. Also hope to read more and catch up with you a bit more.

Did read the book with DS and found it good so hope it helps.

TTFN

MF

bottomburp Fri 13-Oct-06 22:57:09

good evening all, sounds much more positive reading thru today.we had a freakish great night last night, bed at 8.30pm and awoke at 4.30am, fed her and had masses of milk because she hadnt woken customary millions of times, she woke right up so took her to bed and fed her other boob......massive puke, me, DH and DD all soaked.changed her so very awake then had some more boob and went to sleep, was now 5.45am so knew DHs alarmwas about to go off so SHUT HER DOOR!she blimin well slept until 8.45am!!!!!had to keep checking she was breathing by pressing sensitive button on monitor, managed first shower before 10.30am (normal nap time).has renewed my will to leave but fully expecting hideous night tonight.

funniest thing is onlynew thing did y'day was go to baby signing!!

danceswithwolves - am sorry to post another full of hope one when you sound so tired, sending sleepy vibes to your child

disemboweledbint Sat 14-Oct-06 10:13:31

sweetkitty- i think it's the pull of technique that's working for us because dd now pulls herself off, turns her head away from me and falls asleep. she just takes maybe 3 quick sucks, then off she goes. next step is no sucks! sometimes she can do it without any sucks, i can hear her flipping her head side to side trying to get herself back to sleep. if i think she's tried and tried enough i worry she'll wake herself up too much, so i go in and she has those 3 sucks and off she goes again.

Difers Sat 14-Oct-06 10:26:04

Hi Guys,

Don't give up....
I think this solution is slowly working as although DS woke once last night for 1hr 10mins he did have 2 - 5 and a half hour stretches of sleep and that's 11 hours in total which is amazing.

Am struggling with naps but have improved bedtime routine. He's started crawling and wanting to stand so I'm letting him be as physical as he wants to be. Also I've laid off the tea as I am wondering whether caffine is playing a part in night waking. I was in a Need more Tea to keep awake cycle and drinking about 7 cups per day -it's now down to two!!!!

How's everyone's else doing this weekend?????

danceswithbaby Sat 14-Oct-06 15:45:38

Guess what? Yes, another crap night. Longest stretch of sleep over the last week = 2hours 10 minutes. Number of wakings over the last three nights were 8, 10 and 8. The only thing the sleep log seems good for is so I can recite figures like this.

Don't feel bad about posting good news Bottomburp, it's the only thing which keeps me going.

It helps to know that your DS improved from a similar pattern Bikebug. And Difers, I'm not going to give up. This way at least I feel I'm taking positive steps towards making things better instead of crossing fingers and hoping for the best.

Oh, I forgot. Actually there was a tiny breakthrough last night, which offers a glimmer of hope. At about waking number 6 or 7 dd allowed me to cuddle her back to sleep instead of bf. Poor babe was probably so stuffed full by then she'd have puked with any more milk inside her.

BikeBug Sat 14-Oct-06 15:58:05

The jinx of the boastful poster has come and got me! Yesterday evening was good - down at 7, woke at about 8 (just as dinner was ready...), but back down 15 mins later with a back rub and a bit of a cry. But the night was not so great, up at 12.15 (bf back to sleep 30 mins later), then 3.30 (bf back to sleep, took another 30 mins), then up at 6.30 full of beans for the day to come. Hmmm, baby steps I think. Serves me right for having 2 glasses of wine, it's no fun when you have to be alert in the nightime is it?

We will get there. Difers - 5 hours of sleep in one go is just fabulous! And Danceswithbaby, hugs to you and very many sleep vibes to baby.

Difers Sat 14-Oct-06 19:50:24

Dear DanceswithBaby - I do hope tonight is better, you must be doohlally from lack of sleep. Have you read from page 207 - " I've tried everything, Nothing Works, Help!" ?
I know that when I started this thing, that actually I was too tired to really try any solution so I sort of started with her "Take a Break" suggestion first until I felt that I could actually cope with any change.

Iris -Where are you??

iris66 Sat 14-Oct-06 20:30:31

hiya huns - (must have heard you Difers - just logged on) I did a huge post on Friday but it obviously didn't work

Naps are going great guns now & he's having about 2.5 hrs a day (fab!) but they seem to have slipped - about 1.5 hrs late morning (in his cot no less!) then 1/2 hour late afternoon which is pushing his bedtime to around 8ish (no great shakes but it took me a couple of nights of aaages getting him to go down to realise this!) last night was good. 8-1 then co-sleeping until 6.30 with only a couple of wakings.

Have necked about a pint of coke tonight (on top of gallons of tea today to keep moving)and now worried about the caffiene - bugger, didn't think - will let you know if a pants night results (spoke too soon he's now awake again.....................)

iris66 Sat 14-Oct-06 21:04:07

well - a quick bf later & he's zonked (hopefully for more than 1/2 hour this time!! god I do hope it's not the caffeine!!!)

Bikebug - sounds like you're really getting there!! long may it continue eh

Sweetkitty - I'm with you on the pull off. It doesn't seem to be having any effect here at all (wonder if I'm doing something wrong?) I've been offering water at night first too - which he does seem to glug but then I still end up with him only going back to sleep after he's had a couple of bf sucks too.

bottomburp - ROLF at your overfeed/puke/deep sleep story Isn't it always the way though that when they do sleep longer - you bloody can't!!!!

danceswithbaby - cuddled back to sleep?!! I'd call that a MAJOR result!!!!!!!! (I'm only very )

Anyway - I'm off now to reacquaint myself with "the book". Sleepy vibes to all tonight.x

danceswithbaby Sun 15-Oct-06 12:39:23

Sorry to be boring - we hit an all time low last night with the longest stretch of sleep being 1hour 40 minutes.

I've taken your advice Difers and looked at the chapter you suggested. Thanks for that. I didn't realise quite what a mess I am in until I read that. I seem to be in tears at the slightest little thing. Whilst I seem to have endless patience with DD, I am absoulutely vicious to everyone else. Isn't sleep deprivation used as a form of torture?

Tonight I'm going to kick poor DH into the spare room, so at least his movements aren't waking her up as well as mine. We'll see how that goes. Meantime I'll try to re-read some chapters.

You are right Iris! That actually was quite a breakthrough wasn't it? Also, she is napping alone in bed (AND NOT ON ME!!) for at least an hour each day, (even if I do still have to feed her down after the first 30 mins).

It's hard to feel positive about these things when night times seem to be getting progressively worse and worse....

Thanks so much for your support everyone - I hope you all had a much better night than me!

Difers Sun 15-Oct-06 19:52:35

I had a worse night last night, Ds was awake for 2 hours at one stage and woke every 3 hours. [Sad] He is teething though so I'll plough on. Has anyone logged onto Pantley website? I might do that now.
Danceswithbaby - I never ever ever sleep with DH, we both agree that it means less sleep for both of us - hopefully tonight will be better. Wishing you all a good night.

Difers Sun 15-Oct-06 19:52:38

I had a worse night last night, Ds was awake for 2 hours at one stage and woke every 3 hours. [Sad] He is teething though so I'll plough on. Has anyone logged onto Pantley website? I might do that now.
Danceswithbaby - I never ever ever sleep with DH, we both agree that it means less sleep for both of us - hopefully tonight will be better. Wishing you all a good night.

mads1 Sun 15-Oct-06 20:30:14

Hi, sorry but i haven't read all the threads and so i do apologise if this has already been said or done.

I tried the no crying book for 1-2 months when my dd was about 15 months old ( i think?). I found that I was pretty much doing everything already ie black out blinds, routine etc etc etc... In the end I felt my last resort was controlled crying - very last resort.

GUess what - within 2 nights she went to sleep all by herself and has not woken in the nights since (unless really poorly which is rare). It has now been about 3 months now and she still sleeps fantastically. (touch wood!!!). I now see cc as a tool - and i was dead against it at first.

I am not saying it is easy but once you start you have to stick at it. The end result is that my dd is sleeping well and is happy and rested. I don't feel that this has changed her bond with me or her confidence at all (which is what i was afraid of). Hope this help.

bottomburp Sun 15-Oct-06 22:22:51

[delerious face]am suffering from boasters posting jinx.aaaarrrrgggghhhhh!what made thursday night so different??!!and why did i go to bed so late that i didnt even benefit from DDs amazing night! had 2 hideous nights since, not just waking a million times but not going back o sleep after feed, put her in bed with us in the end but i get no sleep then as not a lot of space left after DD and DH have their share.

Dances W.B. your post really struck a chord - i have endless patience with DD but really horrid to everyone else, especially family and DH who are being the most helpful .

what does anyone think of mads1's post, i cant bear the thought of CC but is that because i am a coward?cant imagine gorgeous DD screaming and screaming and feeling abandoned.

danceswithbaby Mon 16-Oct-06 10:32:43

Really sorry things have gone downhill again, Bottomburp.

I think I had a slightly better night. I'm not sure because I didn't count wakings or clockwatch for once. We went out yesterday and got dd a gro-bag. I don't know if that helped or whether it was not having DH in bed too but I'm pretty sure we all slept a bit better.

Good idea to look at Pantley's website. I'll do that now while dd naps.

As for CC, there's so many things I'd like to say, but grandma always said that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

BikeBug Mon 16-Oct-06 11:44:40

must be the phases of the moon, or something (clutching at straws now). We've had a couple of flippin' awful nights, waking every 1.5 to 2 hours. Partly granny and grandad's presence yesterday - lots of stimulation, limited naps - partly who knows what. Back to nap school for us. I'm off to read the book again.

Mads1's post - I think 2 things. One is that cc gets some babies to sleep, but it certainly doesn't work for every baby. The more 'high needs' your baby is, the less likely they are to do the giving in and going to sleep that cc relies on, and the more likely they are to get hysterical. And the other is that I just don't agree with it. I think it's a short cut that often has limited sucess and builds sleep habits on a really poor foundation. And I would go on but I'd get aggressive, and this is a lovely thread so I don't want to be nasty

humphrey Mon 16-Oct-06 12:16:22

I haven't read everything on here but I have been using this book for my ds who is 6 months old and I think we are on our way to lots of sleep at night (probably will be up all night now and difficult to settle). I bought a CD from Amazon by a singer called Nicolette Larson called 'Sleep Baby Sleep' it is sooo soothing it makes me fall asleep as well and I made my own version of the snoedel that is mentioned in the book. I now put him down in the cot with the Snoedel turn on the music and he rolls around with the Snoedel and eventually falls asleep on his own within about 10mins and has done now for the past two days. This is a little boy that would under no circumstances entertain the cot and would scream the moment he touched the mattress even when he had been fast asleep in my arms, he was waking every 3 hrs for a feed and will now go 5 hours(all night according to the book!. So it can be done you just have to keep with it and try all the tips

Difers Mon 16-Oct-06 14:20:41

Well done Humphrey!

I didn't glean much info from the Pantley webpage. I expected it to be brimful of testimonials, never mind. DS poorly and teething, poor sausage, had to call DS to come and read him stories at 4am, he just couldn't sleep through the snuffles. I think i'm getting a sore throat aswell....

sweetkitty Mon 16-Oct-06 16:52:48

Hi all not much to report here, still doing the pull off technique she is starting to pull herself off now which is amusing sometimes it's only a few sucks and a huge pull off, turn over and fall asleep. She goes to bed earlier and then wakes up the same amount of times but sometimes she will go back to sleep with a cuddle and a back rub which I suppose is good. When she does have a BF it's 5 minutes max. But the number of wakenings is just the same still it's early days.

Nap times are still a nightmare, lucky if she gets an hour a day I can't comfort her back to sleep then as DD1 is downstairs and I've tried her sleeping in a cot downstairs and that didn't work either.

We've all got colds too which isn't helping think I'll wait until they clear up as I'm sure her coughing was wakening her last night.

Hope everyone else is seeing some improvements, don't give up these babies will sleep through one day!

iris66 Mon 16-Oct-06 20:30:06

Well, we all seem to be getting somewehere don't we?! [hopeful emoticon] coughs, colds & teething aside.

Humphrey - thanks for your positive input

mads1 - sorry to be rude (if you happen to read this) but if we wanted to do CC we would have a thread called CC (and thinks to self "and so why don't you just fuck off!!!!!!!" ooops did i really say that?)

DS seems to be getting 11/12 hours a night now with only 3/4 brief wakings for bf back to sleep (wondering how to get him in his cot now.....) But result none the less, non?!

Despite my best efforts at leaving him as much space as possible though - to make him feel "alone" in our bed - ie me sleeping sprawled sideways at the bottom & DH in the spare room. He's sussed that if he cruises sleepily around enough(rolling & semicrawling)he'll bump into me at some point for a relatch or a cuddle grrrrr.

I don't hold out for much further progress as we've a huge family gathering this weekend & I'm maxed out preparing for it all.

iris66 Mon 16-Oct-06 20:32:08

perhaps I shouldn't have typed that.....
I'm a bit tired and tetchy at the moment

sweetkitty Mon 16-Oct-06 21:20:13

lol @ Iris sleep deprivation makes you go all funny

We have a bedside cot and sometimes I feed DD2 in it contorting myself in the process so I don't have to move her, only works if I'm feeding from that side though. I would be tempted to sort out the night feeding first then work on the moving to the cot.

iris66 Tue 17-Oct-06 08:52:42



Am now mortified. There was no excuse for that really (though I can see why I flipped - I lay funny on sat night & have had a really painful shoulder ever since & so have been even more grumpy than normal - and had just drunk a lge glass of wine on an empty stomach!)

Hideous night last night - very fidgety & very toothy constant latching 1-4. Must keep reminding myself that overall he's improved [weak smile emoticon]

BikeBug Tue 17-Oct-06 10:09:31

[big hug emoticon] to Iris! Sleep deprivation is a terrible thing. Keep hold of the thought that things are improving if you can - we're all here with you in spirit.

We had a bad night too - third one on the trot since the last decent one, but I think he is getting horrible wind pains from all the solid food he is trying, and they are waking him up. I don't really know if there is much I can do about that (except stop weaning him ).

Thanks to Humphrey for the sucess story - I wonder how you make a Snoedel thingy?

humphrey Tue 17-Oct-06 14:52:58

Here is the website for snoedels
I took a large square of a brushed cotton baby blanket folded over to make a triangle sew all open sides together and left a little hole so that can then put in some stuffing for the head, tied the head off with cotton, sewed the hole up and knotted two corners to make the hands bit and did two long triangles together to make hat and sewed on head. Then put inside my top for a bit so that it smells of me an voila one Snoedel that seems to work, don't know whether anywhere in the UK stocks them but you can get similar things in catalogues like Jojomaman and Blooming Marvellous.

BikeBug Tue 17-Oct-06 15:43:30

Humphrey, you are lovely, I think my sewing might be up to that. I like the idea of making something myself, appeals to my nurturing instincts!

Iris, are you feeling better? Am worried about you being tired and . Hope you are feeling ok.

iris66 Tue 17-Oct-06 16:25:00

Bikebug - thanks for the concern honey. I'm ok really, just got a lot on at the mo & letting stuff get on top of me (including everyone in RL constantly telling me I should leave DS to cry ) Hugest apologies for my outburst everyone.
DH has a week off work so is being an utter star helping out & looking after DS whilst I try to catch up with things(I am very lucky). Hope everyone has a good night tonight.

moljam Tue 17-Oct-06 17:06:51

im back.ds is unwell so no sleep at all.funnily enough slept fine apparently while i was away.im going to read and catch up later!dont know if i tried molita,was to drunk to ask names!(half joking!)

Difers Tue 17-Oct-06 17:10:53

Hi Guys - 2 hours of naps today - Hurrah - swimming induced though! 8 yes 8 solid hours of sleep last night - Capol induced though!

Iris re: Mad1 - I'm sure we were all thinking along similar lines - the NCSS is for us types that specfically DON'T WANT to do CC so comments like like are a tad misplaced on this thread so don't worry - I've said much worse in heated moments!

danceswithbaby Tue 17-Oct-06 17:17:02

I can't believe this - naps have gone all to pieces now! 3 x 20 minutes today and refuses to go down again for longer. What is going on?? We were doing so well

Iris, you're a star. Don't beat yourself up over it. I thought the same thing myself when reading the post, I just hadn't the nerve to say it. An hours less sleep and I might have done. Anyway, you made my day. I really hope you are feeling better, more rested and on top of things.

Here's anticipating another RSN. Hugs to all who need them.

danceswithbaby Tue 17-Oct-06 17:21:01

Blimey Difers! Your post came in just before mine, we must have been typing at the same time.

8 HOURS SLEEP and 2 HOUR NAP?!?! [envy}..

Almost tempted to ask if we can swap babies just for one night......

Difers Tue 17-Oct-06 21:05:31

Oh he's way too cute to swap...what about husbands?

Have downloaded night logs from the Pantley website but if it's another 8 hour stint tonight then I might not even bother to fill in!!

Did I mention that I couldn't sleep and was awake for hours as I'm not used to sleeping more than 3-4 hours????

(Only joking about the husband)

moljam Tue 17-Oct-06 21:14:56

humfrey,glad to hear it works!wow sounds great!love the snoedol thing!(was that name?).iris ,dont worry,it was odd post for ncss,maybe she misread title.dont apologise for what you said,we all feel strongly when it comes to our children.hope your ok.
ds had 2 nice naps today,both on me! but didnt want to sleep tonight.has just gone down holding his toy cow.im missing cot a little,thinking if i had cot hed sleep.although i know he wouldnt.hes unwell so any kind of sleep is gone!

moljam Wed 18-Oct-06 09:29:52

bad bad night.up hourlyuntil 6am.i was so tired i turned of alarm clock and slept till 8 making everyone late!

iris66 Wed 18-Oct-06 12:13:04

oooh moljam - I do feel for you lovely. At least you know that it's because he's not well rather than a "normal" thing Hope you can get some rest today.

something I've noticed is that as DS is sleeping longer at night (albeit with lots of wakings) his naps have gone haywire. He wont go down in the morning now (& almost falls leep during his lunch) then may have a (only slighly) longer nap straight after or gets a second wind & then wants to sleep at around 5.Odd eh!

We have family all arriving tomorrow for a long weekend so know it's going to be a nightmare sleep wise. I'll try to keep up with everyones (positive)progress.
hugs & confident sleep thoughts to all.

moljam Wed 18-Oct-06 12:16:16

do any of you have baby same age as my ds,hes 10 months.hes kipping in pushchair at the moment but i know it wont last so cant be bothered to lay down and sleep myself.im finding it really hard.

iris66 Wed 18-Oct-06 12:43:23

moljam - DS is 9 months today. Keep yer chin up try to remember that this isn't going to last forever (though I know it feels like it!)

You do need to try to rest though even if it's just sitting with your feet up & eyes closed whilst he naps (even 10 minutes will help). Have you got anyone you could ask to have him for a couple of hours whilst you have some kip one afternoon (with strictly no catching up on housework!!!)?

moljam Wed 18-Oct-06 12:56:15

iris,thanks.no dh gets in at about 5.30 so its mayhem,dinner,bath,bed etc for all 3 shortly after he gets in.best go thomas crying..

Difers Wed 18-Oct-06 13:58:47

Hi, mine is 9 months 1 week I think he's developmenting so fast that it is disturbing his sleep!

danceswithbaby Wed 18-Oct-06 16:44:52

Mine is 8 months 1 week. I know what you mean about growing fast... Did you know that 60% of total brain development occurs in the first year? No wonder they sleep so badly!

Last night was an improvement here. Only 5 wakings (whoopee). That's half the usual number and there was no sitting up, crawling etc. (I'm pretty convinced she sleep-crawls - anyone else had that?). Just wake, suckle, back to sleep.

Could be the gro-bag, could be the ejection of dh to the spare bed, could be that she's finally taking to solids better, could be that NCSS is working. It's probably just fluke and a one-off.

Good luck with the family Iris! I've got my mother tomorrow and that's bad enough. She just doesn't know when to go. On the other hand, if she knew when to go she wouldn't show up in the first place. God, I'm horrid when I'm tired.

Loads of sleepy vibes to all - especially Moljam.

momomama Wed 18-Oct-06 19:27:36

Hello strangers! It's lovely to be able to come online and find out how you are all doing. My pc has been broken to top off a spectacularly crap week and I'm scared to go onto MN at work in case I get caught and have to add that to my stress.
I am sooooo delighted for all you lucky mums who are getting more sleep!!!! Well done for sticking with it and enjoy. As for the sleepless ones I understand, I'm still really struggling too. Moljam stick with it.
It's been marginally better but only because DP is on the couch. I feel worn out and quite tearful, just sooooo knackered and sick of living in a shit hole because I'm too tired to tidy up.
Also I'm sick to death of people telling me I should stop B/f. One supportive colleague said my 11 month old baby is 'playing me like a violin' after I said I hadn't much sleep... My thoughts are unrepeatable
Anyhow Difers success and Iris comments have cheered me up sooo much

Difers Wed 18-Oct-06 19:44:02

Monomama - That's a ridiculous comment about bf. She's only 11 months old. It is so wrong with our culture that something as natural as bf should be made out to be abnormal or somehow manipulative, I suppose the formula companies have spent so much on marketing that people are brainwashed. Anyway, well done you for continuing to breastfeed and work, that's quite an achievement in itself, no wonder you are tired and welcome back online.

mads1 Wed 18-Oct-06 20:36:04

Had any of you that had slagged me and cc off actually read my thread fully?
I had said that cc was an absolute last resort because I, like yourselves, had tried everything!
I did the pu/pd, ncss, lying on her floor next to cot, standing over her bed for an hour with my hand on her etc etc - you name it I tried it.
I had to seriously consider the cc and did as much reading and research on it as i could. Finally I realized that I actually wasn't doing dd any good by not letting her go to sleep herself. After a few weeks of thinking about it i went ahead. I never left her for more than 8 minutes to cry. I know my dd has not been effected by it and infact is alot more confident ,happier and rested. It was also beneficial to her because I am now more rested.
Lastly, Iris - with regards to your comment - I feel there was actually no excuse for the extent of your comments. I am fuming at the moment but I won't belittle myself to such nasty remarks. Like I said, I've been there and I know that no amount of sleep deprivation would have made me be so rude to anyone - especially to someone who had taken the time to post a thread in hope of offering some help - Shame on you. Hope that ncss works for you but more so for your ds.

iris66 Wed 18-Oct-06 21:04:30

mads1 - thankyou for your comments and I can only offer my sincerest apologies for being so uncharacteristically offensive when, as you so rightly said, you were only trying to help. It may be that your positive story would have been better received on a CC thread though.

I don't intend to revisit this issue again, however I would like to point out that you did leave yourself wide open for the responses you got because those of us on this thread are a) on here for a reason; to adhere to the tenets of the NCSS not CC and b) suffering significant sleep depravation (as I'm sure you are aware and have experienced yourself).

We are trying to support one another in NCSS and welcome any posts of success with this method. Should any of us feel that it isn't working and decided to go down the CC route that will be fine by all concerned I'm sure, but it is generally understood that CC is (as you said) a last resort (and maybe not even that for some)so therefore not discussed on this thread. Thankyou

mads1 Wed 18-Oct-06 22:01:08

Dear Iris
Apology accepted! You also made some very good points and I wish you and all the other Mums every success in your chosen methods

Difers Thu 19-Oct-06 13:23:04

No capol No sleep Well, he got his 10 hours of course, but was awake for 2 and half hours in between sleeps. Has now got a front tooth though - awwwwwhhhhh!!!!!

moljam Thu 19-Oct-06 14:09:12

i put thomas down at 7pm and fell asleep with him!we were up every 2 -3 hours though.and he had 1 and half hour nap today but in sling!

danceswithbaby Thu 19-Oct-06 15:50:02

I have spent the whole day fielding questions about the whereabouts of dd's cot (we don't have one), her pram/pushchair (we don't have one), why I'm still breastfeeding at 8 months (disgusting, should be on meat-and-two-veg three times a day by now) and "why isn't she sleeping all night? Leave her to cry - she'll learn". (My mother is famous for leaving me as a baby, to cry so long that I damaged my vocal chords and so hard that blood vessels in my eyes burst).

I am now comfort eating for England.

So Difers, no more gummy smiles! DD got her teeth quite early and I was really sad, but she looks so cute now. Just like a little rabbit.

We had 5 wakings again last night, but the biggest improvement is that instead of mega-suckathons she seems content just to snuggle sometimes, before going back to sleep. So long as she is touching me.

If we could just get it down to 3 wakings a night, then quickly back to sleep I think I could take that for years probably. (How sad is that?....)

BikeBug Thu 19-Oct-06 17:12:08

danceswithbaby, for being left to cry so long as an infant - my parents left me crying till I threw up (and it didn't get me sleeping anyway ), but as far as I know I never damaged myself. Sympathy vibes over the fielding of questions - had similar on Sunday when they visited their one and only grandson... He has me 'wrapped around his finger', he 'certainly has me trained' etc etc. At least they're not fussed that I'm still bf & co-sleeping, but even so, it's hard work defending yourself. Have some chocolate and breath deeply, it's your child, your choices...

BikeBug Thu 19-Oct-06 17:21:22

Difers, congrats on the tooth! Also a good reason for lo waking up at night, and moljam hope your ds is feeling better very soon and sleeping very much more. ds's only nap yesterday was in the sling, and he's 21lbs, so I feel it! But... what is it with these babies at the minute? all my antenatal group friends in RL (that's 5 people, I don't have many friends ) and lots more babies I read about on bbs at the moment are waking up so much, and with no 'good' reasons. I guess at least it makes me feel like it's not just me (ie doing it all wrong and making a complete hash of motherhood already), but it is very strange how many sleepless babies there are around at the moment. Anyway, just rambling, off to cook interesting finger foods in my continuing quest to do BLW without ds choking on my lovingly prepared offerings.

lori21 Thu 19-Oct-06 19:49:32

I've been recommended the ncss on another thread but wanted to check that it is for me. My DS1 is 15weeks. Once he gets to sleep he sleeps OK but it is the getting to sleep that is the problem, especially in the day. He really needs his naps but is very hard to settle. Currently using the hoover and rocking him but even then he cries. I feel like a complete failure as he is even worse if I try and hold him. What I need to know is whether there is any useful advice for helping babies with the transition from awake to asleep in the book. He has a special teddy as a sleep cue, a darkened room, I wait until I see the sleep cues, but still he cries.

Sorry for hijacking the thread but I really need to know before buying the book!

Thanks

Difers Thu 19-Oct-06 20:12:43

Dances with Baby - My older sister was also left to cry as my other sister who is much older is mentally ill and had a a bit of a breakdown when she was born and mum felt she had to do it to give older sister her attention. She comfort eats too, I don't and was never left to cry - I think you might have a theory.

Lori1, Welcome to the thread, the NCSS has loads of suggestions regarding getting baby to sleep whether you bf or bottle feed and it is well worth getting. I got mine on Ebay for £5.

Difers Thu 19-Oct-06 20:19:53

As to why are all babies waking up at the moment..I don't know about babies but I live in the country and everyones noting how many mushrooms there are and there is also a bumper Acorn harvest!!!!!

somethingunderthebedisdrooling Thu 19-Oct-06 23:17:24

can i recommend this website to everyone here?. I am a disciple of it and go back from time to time to read bits when i find the time. it has great links to great websites which supports the ncss sleeping method.

moljam Fri 20-Oct-06 10:31:40

thats excellant!i saved it to my favorites!i was beginning to feel a little lost but that link gave me a big confidence boost,i ordered baby whisperer from ebay but have feeling i wont be using it but looking for ncss instead!.i have good news!yesterday ds had 2 good naps,1 in sling on my back and 1 in pushchair,about 1 and half hours each,then slept 7-3 am!feed then slept 3.30-6.30am!and hes just gone for a nap in bed!even if it lasts 10 minutes ,hes having a nap!i think hes over worst of cold too,just teething now.it may be a fluke but i could dance!

danceswithbaby Fri 20-Oct-06 12:00:06

Moljam, dd & i just sang & danced "Animal Fair" round the living room to celebrate with you! That's brilliant news

We had a normal 5-wakings kind of night, but dd slept on from 6.30am untl 8.40am which is unheard of. She was probably just making sure that grandma wasn't going to show up again.

Sorry to blow the theory Difers, but I only comfort eat after a visit from mother. DH usually joins in. That's after we've run around like 5 year olds punching the air and shouting "she's finally gone! Yess!".

Dunno about all those waking babies either Bikebug. All my friends' babies (all 2 of them)seem to bf for 15 mins then sleep for 4 hours. In their cots .

Great site Somethingunderthebedisdrooling (!!). Thanks.

moljam Fri 20-Oct-06 13:26:17

nap lasted 1 hour!sorry boasting,but it probably wont happen again soon so im making the most of it!

BBWBabeLisa Fri 20-Oct-06 14:54:21

I've just seen ur post re mads post Iris! Didn't half make me giggle!
DD woke within 20 minutes of going down last night and was awake til well past midnight. Screamed blue murder whenever her bum touched the cot mattress. Only thing that stopped the crying was snuggling on the couch with us watching telly! I tried just giving her cuddles in the armchair in her room with the lights dimmed etc but she still squawked. Tried a wee bit of CC but that just confirmed to me that I'm not up to that, couldn't bear it.
Think it was about 00:45 when she finally went to sleep, and only then after another full 8oz feed, and being taken into our bed and cuddled til she got into a deep enough sleep to move her without her waking. Once I got her into her own cot then she was fine, and would happily have slept til lunchtime today if I'd let her, but I woke her at about 9.20. It's meant she's been a grumpy little madam all morning but is now happily napping in her cot cuddling the t-shirt I slept in last night!
I reckon this is payback for the 9 months of sleep I've had. I was really surprised to have a baby who slept so well, and kinda got complacent about it, suddenly getting problems at 9 months has been a real shock to the system. I thought it was just while she was ill (croup/cold) as she slept 9 til 9 the previous two nights when the cold had got better, but I guess last night knocks that theory out.
Loved that website you linked to somethingunderthebed.
Have just ordered my copy of NCSS from amazon. FYI, cheaper than ebay. One about to end on ebay today bidding is already at £6.50 plus £2 p&p. Got mine (used) on amazon marketplace for £7 all-in.

moljam Fri 20-Oct-06 16:58:29

amazon dont accept paypal though.i dont have cards or cheque book.i'll keep looking on ebay!even if paying a bit more ,it sounds worth it.

humphrey Fri 20-Oct-06 21:12:48

Why don't you check whether your library has a copy that you can borrow, our library has an online site that you can check availability of titles and order a title to be sent from a different library branch if the local one hasn't got it, try googleing your council's libraries. Alot cheaper then if you don't like the book

moljam Fri 20-Oct-06 21:22:41

great idea humfrey!im sure our local library does online too,good job some ones thinking!

Difers Sun 22-Oct-06 14:45:22

Hi Guys,

I've slacked off the plan due to colds, grandad visiting for the 1st time and teething, it's all gone wrong and Jake was awake every hour all last night. I suppose when you start something like this you have to keep it up. How's everyone else doing?

moljam Sun 22-Oct-06 14:58:24

difers,sounds awful.we had similar night.after 2 nights of only waking once and 2 x hour and half naps a day we were up every 2 hours last night!do you think its boosting syndrome?next time he sleeps well im telling no one!dh let me sleep in though!
heres to better sleep tonight difers

moljam Sun 22-Oct-06 15:01:36

i got copy of baby whisperer from ebay but reading bits i dont think its suited if you cosleep so have feeling it will be resold!might flick thrrough rest though!

danceswithbaby Sun 22-Oct-06 16:11:28

It must've been the night for it. We were up every hour last night too. It seemed to be reflux related.

I slacked off the schedule all last week too, purely because I felt so awful after night after night of hardly any sleep.

I'm going to have one more night off, then start the sleep logs etc properly tomorrow.

BBWBabeLisa Sun 22-Oct-06 16:44:19

Sorry to hear y'all had a bad night last night. DD fell asleep in her beanbag chair in the lounge about half an hour before I planned to start her bedtime routine, so I immediately whisked her upstairs (during which she woke), skipped her bath and went straight to bottle. She fell asleep on the bottle and slept thru fine. It kinda confirms my suspicion that the reason she's not been settling is she's overtired by bedtime. I have no illusions that last night spells the end of the problem tho, looking forward to getting my ncss book thru from amazon soon.

moljam Mon 23-Oct-06 10:49:22

i cant even remember lastnight!i think ds slept till 3 or 4 but then i think it was hourlt suck on bottle then back to sleep and so on!then up at 6am and raring to go!a lovely mumsnetter has offered me ncss book so i'll know what youre all on about better!naps so far today are going badly as next door are having very noisy work done which is disturbing ds!

Difers Mon 23-Oct-06 16:00:28

I've no neighbours but a noisy barky dog who I suspect to be the main nap disturber culprit. He slept in the car for 1.5 hours this morning but so far this afternoon I can't get him to sleep. Last night was better but still every 2-4 hours. It was better because I went to bed with him at 7.30pm. Did you read the thread about the woman who is concerned because her baby sleeps from 7pm to 5.30am and she thinks it should be 7-7pm?

moljam Mon 23-Oct-06 16:03:27

no wheres thread?you are joking arent you?

moljam Mon 23-Oct-06 16:08:35

oh my god i read it!its true!im lost for words!i want to say something but wont/cant!im gobsmacked

Difers Mon 23-Oct-06 16:10:00

No joke.....it's the "Why won't my baby sleep on a shedule" one, admittedly I just re read it [for amusement]and she now has put that sometimes her baby does wake slightly before 5.30am.

moljam Mon 23-Oct-06 17:04:36

just read that one,that was bad but i thought it was this one - 'Popsy hits stalemate....can someone remind me how to do controlled crying for during the night please......'i may have read it wrong but are they doing cc to get extra hour in bed?

moljam Mon 23-Oct-06 17:06:58

i just reread,baby sleeping till 4 or 5 but its the you can crack it that sent me mad,its a baby!you dont crack babies!maybe im wrong so ignore me just my opinions!

iris66 Mon 23-Oct-06 19:57:11

I have tied my fingers together to stop me typing anything I may regret later

However........good progress alert!!!! (whispers just in case I jinx it)

Had a house full over the weekend so naps were up the swannee but DS only woke 1/2 times from 10-6 over the past 4 nights !!! He's still going to bed at between 7-8 with a wake up before the late feed but I've been able to get him to have water while in bed with me and have held his hand/cuddled him back to sleep more than a couple of times now. It finally seems to be working!!! (have I said this before???)

Anyway - he had 1.5 hrs sleep this morning (have noted he sleeps better after having a snack and bf - fuller tummy?)& 30 mins this afternoon then late tea & down at 7 so we'll see what tonight brings. He's also teething but I'm using 30c chamomilla which is really helping(homeopathic remedy available from Boots - cheaper & more effective than the weaker 6c teething granule stuff they sell)

BBWBabeLisa - must be murderous for you after Lola spent so long sleeping 12 hours a night!!!! hope she gets back to her old routine soon for you.

somethingunderthebedisdrooling - fab website - thanks so much for the link. It was certainly the boost I needed (so easy to lose heart isn't it)

moljam/difers - it was a new moon sat night (full one is 5 Nov) is it me or do your LOs seem to be particularly affected by these????

danceswithbaby - I'm guilty of not following the schedule properly too - but I am trying to tune into what DS wants more & just going with it. I seem to be getting more sleep that way...for the moment

sweetkitty - you still around lovely? hope you're not jsut too stressed to post

sleepy relaxing vibes to everyone for tonight then. xx

moljam Mon 23-Oct-06 22:35:03

yay iris(also whispering!so as not to jinx or wake baby!).i heard good things about those chamollia(sp?)things,apparently weleda also do them.ds didnt want to go to bed tonight,he wanted to scratch wall!2 short naps today even after extra long walk in park!
heres to a good night!

BikeBug Tue 24-Oct-06 08:01:26

Hi all, I'm really pleased for your good progress Iris, hope no jinx came and got you and you had a great night.

We have been going backwards recently - utterly awful night last night, to bed at 7.30 then up at 8.30, every half hour until 11, then 1, then 4, 5, 7 . Ds had what seemed to be a night terror at the beginning of the evening (even though I think he is too young for them yet), and I've just been reading that they are related to being overtired. Feel like such a bad parent today, no idea what I can do to make things better, really tired (feel dizzy when I move my head this morning). Really hope every one else is doing better.

moljam Tue 24-Oct-06 09:05:55

bikebug!thats awful.its hard coping with no no sleep isnt it!wish i could help.ds slept 7-2 then up hourly until 6,im sure its his teeth.also he was cold so put grobag on him.my dd now 6 had night terrors,theyre awful.i used to find them quite scary to watch.he will grow out of them thats the good thing!(not much help!)

BikeBug Tue 24-Oct-06 09:37:59

thanks moljam <weak smile>. I think it might be ds's teeth too, at least in part. I'm worried because he seems to wake up with pain, rather than just wake up iykwim? A real howl, often quite windy. Today we are going back to the start with weaning - nothing but pear and sweet potato (not in the same bowl!), no wheat, no dairy, no pulses etc. Maybe a few days of that will help. If not, at least I'll know it's not food sensitivity.

moljam Tue 24-Oct-06 09:49:33

goodluck bikebug!if its night terrors he shouldnt be in pain,just like a nightmare but up and moving and 10 x worse from what i can remember.hope it goes ok!

iris66 Tue 24-Oct-06 10:33:20

bugger - up every 2 hours from 9 last night

but then I think it was largely due to wind from the copious amounts of broccoli and peas he demolished off DHs plate after his tea last night (and my sneaky boast - that'll teach me!!)

Bikebug - DS had a really bad virus at 5 mths that made him intolerant of loads of foods. Dairy, wheat & tomato seemed to be the worst(potato & peppers are the same family as tomato btw so we avoided those too) good luck.

Difers Tue 24-Oct-06 16:14:48

Bikebug - Did you give him cheese or fish???? DS was awake for 3 hours last night. I think it might be cheese or fish or cheese and fish combo??? I keep startling awake to check that he is in cot rather than very unsafe bed with me..

Iris - Like yer moonlight theory - made me laugh...I checked his palms for hair...can't see any!!!!!

DS had 1.25hours this morning and is asleep now..I hope tonight's better!!!!!!

BikeBug Tue 24-Oct-06 17:20:20

ooh, I gave him cheese... It was at lunchtime, but still, maybe that was it. He's not had much cheese before. Today we have had pear for breakfast, butternut squash for lunch and were going to have another spoonful of pear for tea in a moment (baby led weaning has also been put on hold, I'm shovelling puree for the duration of this experiment or I'll be too tempted to give him a bit of whatever I'm having). I'll stay off the tomatoes, potatoes, peppers too, thanks Iris.

He has had a 45 min nap this morning, an hour and 5 mins at lunchtime and about 20 minutes during our hour-long afternoon walk. PLEASE let these babies sleep tonight!

danceswithbaby Tue 24-Oct-06 17:24:41

I think I'm evolving into some kind of weird creature that never has to sleep. I haven't had a stretch of sleep longer than 2 hours for 4 weeks at least and yet I don't feel too bad. Just been swimming, made rusks, done the nappy wash... there's no end to it. I look brilliant too, all white and gaunt with black circles under bloodshot eyes.

I re-started the programme yesterday, nap logs, sleep logs, trying to do the same stuff around the same sort of time each day etc. Kind of difficult when dd sometimes gets up at 6am and somethimes at 8am (short of bopping her on the head there's not much I can do about that).

She's being extra-clingy at the moment and for the last couple of nights has pretty much slept under my arm-pit. She had an hour long suckathon last night. Long b/f sessions like that make me itch like crazy (anyone else?).

Sorry to hear about the bad nights last night . I really hope your lo improves Bikebug. DD has only really been taking solid food for a few weeks and her reflux has returned with a vengence (even more wakings.... bring 'em on!). So it's back to very basic, plain foods for us too.

Hope it's better nights all round tonight!

treaclebeetle Tue 24-Oct-06 17:37:48

Hi, bit of a new Mum me.
Hello all.
I've been reading with interest all your efforts/tips etc..
I guess I am trying the NCSS technique too, although I didn't know it was a 'technique' as such. My mum keeps telling me that my DS at nearly four months should be getting herself to sleep by now, and that all her four did. Talk about pressure!

Anyway, good luck to everyone, I think you're all doing a smashing job and I'm quite inspired.

p.s. cut Mad1 some slack, they may not have realised how the site worked.. I'm still learning!

iris66 Tue 24-Oct-06 18:56:54

danceswithbaby - all together we'd make a fab halloween picture wouldn't we - and with no additional make up needed

with you too on the annoying bf sessions DS seems to just suck me in through his teeth <<<shudder>>>>(makes me want to scream "just gerroff me!!" )

teaclebeetle - welcome and glad you're finding the thread useful. Family pressure is the pits isn't it. I just smile weakly and go "hmmmm" in a "ooh I hadn't realised I was such a crap parent" kind of way
Actually, I lied, I've taken now to just ignoring their frequent comments and trying to go with the flow (DS's flow, to be precise

moljam Tue 24-Oct-06 22:18:20

ds wouldnt nap today!he usually naps at about 10 then again about 3 and bed at 7 but today he napped at 12 then 5 and bed at 8.30.are planets shifting?not holding out much hope for night sleep!
can i be nosey,do any of you cosleep?i find it hard telling people i know in rl that ds isnt sleeping well as theyre immediate responce is its because we cosleep.he was in cot part time until recently and after about 8 months of sleeping 7-7(!!!!!)he decided no more rest for mummy!he had about month of starting night in cot then big bed but now full time cosleeping.im babbling,need sleep.

momomama Wed 25-Oct-06 08:22:03

HELP I am feeling awful. I'm beyond exhausted and called my HV in tears yesterday. Her advice was to try CC as I need to get sleep before I go gaga. I'm already feeling anxious and can't bear feeling like this much longer. DD like most of the other babies has made some progress but is regularly still waking for a b/f 4+ times a night. I'm starting to crack under the strain!!!

moljam Wed 25-Oct-06 08:58:25

momomama,big(((hug))) to you.i called my hv last week too,shes coming today,i think i have pnd AGAIN!i cant believe a hv would suggest cc!what are you going to do?hope all goes ok,let us know what happens.

BikeBug Wed 25-Oct-06 09:31:00

Big hugs to momomama and moljam, you sound like you're both having a hard time. Moljam we cosleep, I'm sure some others on this thread do as well. I hope your hv has some good advice about possible pnd.

momomamma, I think hvs always recommend cc, it's what they know about . I can't remember, how old is you DD? Do you think she is waking out of habit or need? Let us know what happens [hug].

moljam Wed 25-Oct-06 10:12:33

ive just got copy of ncss through post,cant wait to read!i flicked through looks great.ds slept 7-2 ,had milk,then woke again at 4 ,more milk then awake at 6.30.not too bad!just had 5 minute nap though!silly mummy tried moving him off me so i could clear up before hv comes!now hes awake but im not cleaning im on mn again!

Difers Wed 25-Oct-06 12:01:28

Dear Moljam and Monomama, Big hugs to both of you! I hope things get better soon!

I found that when I co slept that I was less tired, I don't think it makes much difference to baby's sleep. I can't co sleep at the moment as I'm moving house and it not safe to where I am just now which is why I've stopped. Though Last night I heard DS wake and move around cot and go back to sleep on his own.... (9mths) I have the Dream N play travel cot with a 10cm thick mattress as I don't like proper cots with bars.It's right next to my bed. We like to kiss through the mesh and also he rubs his head against it without getting hurt so I think it's a good cheap compromise if you did want to try a cot.

Difers Wed 25-Oct-06 12:05:12

Sorry misread - You have a cot already! If cc makes you more anxious and unhappy it's not a solution.

I have just tried the wake to sleep suggestion for extending DS naps IT HAS WORKED I hadn't the courage to try that tip until now!!!!

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 12:34:38

moljam/momomama ((hugs)) it's so hard isn't it especially when people in RL are so unsupportive . We co-sleep too & DS seems to sleep better that way at the mo (I certainly do!)

Difers - congratulations!! (must read the book more !)

must go DS awake.....

momomama Wed 25-Oct-06 13:08:08

Thankyou everyone. I'm totally confused what to do next. HV is actually very supportive and helpful but feels I NEED to make sure I get more sleep very quickly thus CC. I'm soooooo tired I think I'll cave after 10 mins so not even considering it at the moment (that time could come). Just read Dr Sears sleep book (to confuse matters further) and their advice for burn-out mums is to take steps to stop bf through the night usually with a lot of support from DP. I am considering this. DD is almost 1 and I feel like such a wreck and so anxious its really affecting me.
Moljam (((hugs))) too. Just remember you need to take really good care of yourself too.
Well done all of you for sticking with the plan. I'm sure it will yield rewards it just takes soooooo long.

danceswithbaby Wed 25-Oct-06 13:47:05

Momomama & Moljam, I wish I could say something that would help.

We co-sleep and alway have done. We don't have a cot at all. It's the only way for us as I think DD is at the top of the 'high need' baby tree! As for me, I'd so much rather cuddle her up in bed and fall asleep while she feeds than get up and wander around in the dark a few times a night. Last week I started going to bed with her at 7.30-8-ish so I could catch up on some sleep and I do feel a bit better this week.

Well done on the naps Difers! It's worked for me too, up do a point. I still have to b/f her back down after the first half hour though.

I met a young mum today at baby gym whose baby is 8 months the same as my DD. When her baby was 3 months old she found a lump in her neck and has been having chemo ever since... Dunno about you, but it kind of put a few night wakings seem a little bit insignificant all of a sudden .

manuka Wed 25-Oct-06 14:14:39

What a nightmare you are all having! I think in a lot of cases parents make it into a problem by feeling guilty when baby cries so go and jiggle it about etc also co sleeping is not helpful at teaching babies to sleep happily on their own. When a baby has proper structured naps in the day they sleep better at night. My 4month dd has learned to sleep an hour in the morning and 2 hours at lunch time and is asleep at 7pm and wakes between 6 and 7am (I wake her at 10pm for quick top up) She is the most laid back jolly soul but if I hadn't let her go through the screaming from tiredness every night for 2 weeks she would be a pain in the arse still. It was AWFUL to leave her crying but she was fed, changed, the right temperature, burped and it wasn't colic (no writhing around etc) and its the best thing Ive ever done for her. I think all parents need to be hard with themselves and be honest and look at how you are with your babies and ask yourself Am I creating this needy baby? More often than not the answer is yes. Do not feel bad about sleep training. Sleep is IMPERATIVE for a healthy immune system. Its the best thing you can do for your child. I wish I could bloody sleep!!

danceswithbaby Wed 25-Oct-06 14:24:48

you know what I just said about naps? About always having to feed DD back down after 30 minutes? Well I just went upstairs to do just that. At 30 minutes in, nothing happened. At 40 minutes in, she briefly opened her eyes, snuffled a bIt, then SHUT HER EYES AND WENT RIGHT BACK TO SLEEP AGAIN!!

That is the first time EVER that she hasn't woken rooting for me after half hour into a nap.

Could this finally be progress??!(trying-not-to-look-too-excited face).

danceswithbaby Wed 25-Oct-06 14:30:10

With reference to the post by Manuka:

Iris, over to you............

moljam Wed 25-Oct-06 14:57:08

manuka,have you read through the rest of the posts?i really think you should!

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 15:12:41

manuka - honey, I'm so pleased you have trained your baby not need you but we have a slightly different take on CC here.

danceswithbaby - you naughty, naughty girl!!

moljam Wed 25-Oct-06 15:13:13

go iris.

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 15:25:35

momomama - I'm so sorry you are so low lovely (((hugs))) is there any way you & DD can have the bed to yourselves for a few nights? Just having more room to move has made a huge difference to the quality of sleep I've been getting - DH isn't impressed but I'm figuring it's short term so..

or can family/friends/DP take her out for a couple of mornings/afternoons so you can sleep uninterrupted?

If you do go down the CC route please don't worry - she'll be fine and you will too (and we'll all still love you even me)Just make sure the decision is yours.

manuka Wed 25-Oct-06 16:44:04

I have read the posts and I think you're all making something so straightforward into a big hardship and none of you are happy! My friends who do what you do have unhappy, whingeing babies most of the time.I wasn't wishing to offend any of you so I shall bog off and wish you all luck with your methods. x

momomama Wed 25-Oct-06 17:19:48

we've been co-sleeping for months and the last few weeks DP has left the bed to give us space etc but i'm feeling awful still. Ideally I would love to just keep going with the demand bf and co-sleeping but I've reached the point where I know I can't without really running myself into the ground.
Manuka, have you ever heard the phrase if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all. Talk about kicking people when they're down. I can ASSURE you that none us are in thge business of 'creating' needy babies. In future think about a little empathy and sensitivity before giving useless opinions which only serve to undermine and antagonise others!

BikeBug Wed 25-Oct-06 17:24:11

but that does offend. I have a lovely, happy, smiling little boy who just happens to be a high needs baby who is excited by the world around him and who resists sleep, not an "unhappy, whinging baby most of the time". The NCSS is not the quick way to help him sleep better but, for him and babies of a similar character, it is the kind way. CC would not suit either him or me, and I resent your implication that I am somehow deliberately and obtusely making my son miserable for my own ends.

Papillon Wed 25-Oct-06 18:35:24

Manuka "honey" think only a kiwi would notice that going together! There is a manuka honey vodka in NZ. Anyone thats enough useless information on Manuka products... my sisters dd did not sleep through till just over one year old and she was left to cry etc. I cosleep after trying ds on mattress next door with dd. I am too lazy to get out of bed and tbh it supports my ethos of raising my kids with alot of support, trust and companionship in sleep and life. I see alot of freedom in dd (3) which really reflects my hippie style of parenting!

Hi everyone nice to see this thread still running for support Once we are all over our colds ds will be working towards one feed a night and try and only feed 3 times max in 24 hour period. So you might well see me back for commanderie then

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 18:44:14

Thanks for your support Papillon - we're all committed to doing the best for our LOs, whichever route we take but it is such an emotive subject isn't it!!
Am trying to get DS down to 2 bf per day (and conveniently ignoring the 3/4 night sessions for the moment )

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 18:47:25

being very childish but sorry I can't resisit....

manuka - just to add
- my DS is, and I quote many friends and all his (very) extended family, one of the most contented and happiest baby boys they know.

so there

manuka Wed 25-Oct-06 18:51:20

That was funny - the manuka honey- comment! I've read your comments and really thought about it and had a good look at myself and to be honest I think I was motivated to comment on here through a deep sense of feeling like a shit mother. I did the cc thing because unlike you I found it horribly difficult to love my baby at first from pnd. I was terrified to love her and terrified to have anyone need me. So it wasn't hard for me to do cc. luckily she is naturally very happy and giggly and thankfully no worse for wear from the 2 week cc. I do love her endlessly now. Reading your ways of being with your babies made me feel shit that I couldn't love as much as you do and I can not go back and change those first 3 months. So I humbly appologise for all my comments and thankyou for your replies as it made me really look at myself.I really admire you for your selfless love. Your babies are lucky to have you.

Papillon Wed 25-Oct-06 18:51:57

Oh that's so childishly reinforcing Iris My ds was photographed by strangers yesterday cos they just liked his peaceful aura

Papillon Wed 25-Oct-06 18:54:50

((manuka)) thats beautiful, healing and very aware of you

If you need support in the future and I see you name, I will try and be there for you... Take care

manuka Wed 25-Oct-06 18:58:21

Thanks thats very kind especially as I was such a twat. Its really brought it all up which is good as I need to deal with it. Its funny and ironic that she sleeps like an angel and I'm awake most of the night with insomnia!!! Doesn't life always have the last laugh!

Papillon Wed 25-Oct-06 19:11:15

Sleep! tell me about it Manuka. I used to be a 8.30pm till 7am sleeper, now I am lucky if I manage 6! boo hoo

Being a twat is what makes us human I do try and be a raised consciousness kind of girlie and it takes a "big person" to speak from your heart, like you did. Goes along way in the Paps camp

Right I am off to bed NOW!

manuka Wed 25-Oct-06 19:23:44

Hope you sleep! I cant be bothered to try anymore! Have you heard of Amma? Reading about her selfless love is helping. Check her out on internet she's amazing! Amma.org

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 21:02:06

Manuka - aw bless you sweetheart. To post as you did was very brave - and humbling. Thank you. I think we're all guilty of lashing out when we feel hurt or offended/useless/a shit mother/incompetent/ knackered etc etc etc (note to self.... )

FWIW I certainly don't feel selfless or that I love my DS any more than anyone else. Maybe I'm doing NCSS because I feel a crap mother in other ways?? (food for thought but probably not for this thread) It's horses for courses isn't it. CC worked for you and was what you needed at that time. Perhaps it's time you forgave yourself for being human those first few months. I am pleased your LO sleeps though and hope your insomnia sorts itself out too (I know reflexology can help www.aor.org )

BikeBug Wed 25-Oct-06 21:17:46

hey manuka, sorry I snapped at you - I was guilty of not trying to see things from your point of view, and I apologise. Thanks for coming back and keeping talking.

iris66 Wed 25-Oct-06 21:25:44

Momomama/Moljam - hope you're both ok & are already in bed.

Danceswithbaby/Difers - so pleased for your nap results & hope it's a good indicator of a better night.

Loads of sleepy vibes to all our babies.
Night night all

BBWBabeLisa Wed 25-Oct-06 22:29:48

Hi Ladies. I've just spent over 2 hours trying to get DD to sleep (Manuka, til 9 months old she slept 12 hours every night without a single problem, I really hope your LO continues to be a great sleeper, but bear in mind that it can all change in a heartbeat). I wish my book would hurry up n get here! She was displaying all the signs of being tired between 7.30 and 8, so I took her upstairs and gave her her bottle in dim light in her room. She started to nod off on the bottle and so I cuddled her for a bit to be sure she was asleep. As soon as I tried to put her down in her cot she woke and started to screech. No amount of cuddles and reassurance would stop her. Took her into my bed and tried cuddling her there but she just seemed to have a new burst of energy and just wanted to climb all over me and pull my hair. What does the NCSS recommend in that case? Do you persist in trying to settle her or accept that she's now wide awake and take her back downstairs and wait for her to show signs of being tired again, even if that's hours later? I know my problem is miniscule in comparison to most of you, but I'm finding it really difficult not knowing what to do for her. DH left yesterday for 2 months overseas so am all she's got.

bottomburp Thu 26-Oct-06 01:07:17

Hi all, not been on for a while and just had a nice time catching up on thread and getting cross and giggling on cc/ncss bits but hat off to manuka for explaining.dd just 7mths old tis wk and been crawling for last 3wks, now trying very hard to collect as many head injuries in one day as poss.we/ve had one fab night, last sat with a 12-7 sleep, all others rubbisho. last night tho was up pureeing my way thru annabel karmel so couldnt rush up tp dd when she woke at midnight for usual feed, she moaned a bit, didnt sry adn then within 4 mins went back to sleep!is now 1am and still not woken again tonight.fingers crossed. am finding that the better nights are then followed by better day naps, anyone else?

moljam Thu 26-Oct-06 08:47:02

manuka,that was very brave to come back and say what you did.if you were really a bad parent you wouldnt have bothered as you wouldnt have had that understanding(am i making sense!).i had pnd with my first 2 ,i had test yesterday as we thought i had it again but i havent.i found bonding with my ds1 very hard so i know where your coming from.hope we didnt offend you,its just sometimes its a touchy subject,many people have the view you first had and feel they have right to say if you dont do it my way your bad and your children are growing up 'wrong' thats why i personally got cross.
anyway.
yesterday ds fell asleep at 5,i let him sleep half hour then he went to bed at 7.30 and up from 12pm onwardsafter 6 times i stopped counting!i think teeth are hurting again as i couldnt comfort him .then up and wide awake(him not me)at 5am!
have been reading ncss,loving it already,cant wait to start properly with logs etc but want to read through first.so much of it just makes sense.with other books i skim bits that dont suit us but so far this is all good!

moljam Thu 26-Oct-06 08:51:45

bbwbl-my ds also slept wwell till a few months ago.i was in shock after 2 non sleepers!i keep thinking was i too relaxed about his sleeping so now he doesnt sleep?never mind.
bottom burp,how did it go?,do you want to come and cook aload for me?freezer is empty!

manuka Thu 26-Oct-06 08:58:19

You're all very kind and have given me much to work on. If she becomes a bad sleeper I'l check out this book you're all reading. Should try it for myself! Thankyou for the reflexology tip I'll give that a try.
The fact that you can be so giving is what broke my heart you're what real mothers should be. I had to force myself to 'give'. Its becoming more of a joy now.
Anyway thankyou and good luck and if it doesn't work as my friend said There's plenty of time to sleep when we're dead. He's a great dad even though his son never sleeps!

tiredandgrumpy Thu 26-Oct-06 09:38:17

Hi - have been skimming through this thread as am bleary-eyed and grumpy after another bad night with dd. I'm not even pushing for her to sleep through although the general advice seems to be that at 7 months she should be able to. What I am desperate for is for her to be able to settle at bedtime. Last night it was 11pm before she finally crashed. I did usual routine and she fell asleep at 6-50, only to wake up at 7-35 ready to play. She has become incapable of ever falling asleep without bf and rages into a fury if I so much as put her in her cot awake.

Never got into these difficulties with ds, who was also bf to sleep when young, but learned to self soothe and after 4 months, we never had a problem with bedtimes. dh is getting fed up at lack of evenings together, I'm getting fed up simply at lack of time to myself.

Soo....what it what are easy, painless tips for a successful bedtime which don't involve disturbing ds who is also trying to get to sleep and is currently an angel.

iris66 Thu 26-Oct-06 11:04:36

BBWBabeLisa - DS went through a phase of waking as soon as his head touched the cot mattress too.
The two things I did were:
holding him until he went into a really deep sleep (ie very floppy) (but that didn't really help in getting him to self settle), or feeding him whilst lying on a bed (so not being cuddled) then transferring quickly from bed to cot as soon as he was asleep. HTH

tiredandgrumpy - it's such a shock when you've had one child that slept so well isn't it And I don't know what it is about that first 40 minutes or so that makes them so unsettleable after!. Have you tried music on a loop or doing a shortened bedtime routine again? Interaction is what gets DS going. If I avoid eye contact & talking it seems to be easier (though that didn't work during last nights kick boxing demo!! - my ribs are so bruised this morning)

bottomburp - result!!! better nights = better naps?.... definately (DS just coming up to 45 mins blasting the zeds)

moljam - so pleased for you about the pnd (or rather the lack of it )

sweetkitty - you ok lovely?

a restless night in irisville. 3 naps yesterday totalling 1hr 40. started trying to put him down at 7.15, he finally dropped off at 8.45 then in with me from 10.30 kicking & roaming the bed until 5.30 with 2/3 bf.

I'm definately going to read more of the book today as I realise I really really need to have him off the night bf by mid nov as DH wants to organise a birthday party for me(it's a biggie) & I won't be able to enjoy myself (or even go!!) otherwise!!!

<<iris scuttles off with renewed determination >>

Papillon Thu 26-Oct-06 11:16:03

Oh yes you need a big night on your big four0ty Iris

I just put ds down for a nap with some rice milk rather than boob and once offered water when he woke last night, to get him used to the idea. He is abit weary, as am I with this cold.

Manuka, I am using a Edward Bach remedy atm to help me sleep will write it up in another post once ds wakes (its in the bedroom SSHHH)! Actually I have found that Motherhood and its sleeplessness is a reason for sleep training for myself. I have various techniques for creating sleep. Just feeling abit knackered right now, but will post about that later too

Difers Thu 26-Oct-06 11:58:36

Hello,

You've all been so busy...I've really enjoyed reading the posts since I last posted...you are such a supportive & inspiring bunch!! If Ds does start to sleep fine, what I'm I gonna do then? I might still be on this thread when he's 18.

Moljam - Good news re: PND

Manuka - It's a big change for us when we have a baby and often in our culture we just do not have enough support and practical help so don't feel you have done anything wrong in the way you parented or felt about your child at first. In the Book there is a whole chapter (11) called Baby's sleeping but Mommy's Not...there's too much to precis but the headings are

1) stop worrying about sleep.
2) Pay off your sleep debt.
3) Set your body clock
4) Get organised.
5) Avoid Caffine last in the Day
6) watch out for effects of Alcohol (if only)
7) Excercise
8) make environment favourable for sleep
9) Have your own routine
10)Eat light before sleep
11) Relaxation (Yoga, breathing, progressive relaxation)

There, I hope I haven't breached copyright, I'm sure Mrs. Pantley would understand not like some of those other CC type authours.

iris66 Thu 26-Oct-06 12:23:42

And there was I thinking everyone would think I was only going to be 30 Paps - suppose the 66 in my name is a bit of a giveaway

Difers - you'll be on the thread when he's 18 because you wont be able to sleep until he's safely home!!(like I am with DD)

mummyscaryhouseonthehill Thu 26-Oct-06 17:55:59

Not got the book will read through thread later but thought I would introduce myself.

I have a 13 month old ds who won't sleep and i think i am going insane.

tiredandgrumpy Thu 26-Oct-06 19:24:54

iris66 - you know, I haven't tried music with dd. ds always slept with it in the background. May help.

Plus, have just ordered ncss book after everyone's glowing reviews. How good to know that other people have ended up in the same trap as me.

Difers Thu 26-Oct-06 21:28:39

Hi Guys...welcome to Mummyscaryhouseonthehill!!!

Iris, yep, I'll be up when he's 18, waiting..worrying....Good for you doing baby and young adult at the same time, that must be really hard!!

Good news about naps Bottomburp!

Here's the daily report,

DS cold/cough is better, his teeth are still bothering him a bit.Last night he woke up a few times 12,2,3am.

This mornings nap lasted 1 hour 45mins with feeding him back to sleep after 40mins. I think this has lead to a breakthrough as this afternoon he slept for another 1hour 45mins WITHOUT needing to be fed back to sleep. In his buggy in the garden. It was great, I sat there with my steaming cup of tea in the sun & wind as he opened his eyes and then went back to sleep. I feel much better for more of a break in the day as he needs watching every minute, he loves the stove, wires, sharp surfaces and the compost bin!

He went to bed at 8pm. I wonder what tonight will bring now, he's never napped for more than 3 hours before during the day.

Difers Thu 26-Oct-06 21:31:53

Hi Guys...welcome to Mummyscaryhouseonthehill!!!

Iris, yep, I'll be up when he's 18, waiting..worrying....Good for you doing baby and young adult at the same time, that must be really hard!!

Good news about naps Bottomburp!

Here's the daily report,

DS cold/cough is better, his teeth are still bothering him a bit.Last night he woke up a few times 12,2,3am.

This mornings nap lasted 1 hour 45mins with feeding him back to sleep after 40mins. I think this has lead to a breakthrough as this afternoon he slept for another 1hour 45mins WITHOUT needing to be fed back to sleep. In his buggy in the garden. It was great, I sat there with my steaming cup of tea in the sun & wind as he opened his eyes and then went back to sleep. I feel much better for more of a break in the day as he needs watching every minute, he loves the stove, wires, sharp surfaces and the compost bin!

He went to bed at 8pm. I wonder what tonight will bring now, he's never napped for more than 3 hours before during the day.

bottomburp Fri 27-Oct-06 00:12:00

Hi y'all, major bummer last night as DD woke up as i logged off mumsnet at 1am, i REALLY must sleep train myself as am insomnialc but too broke for alc at mo.all todays threads have a real optimistic feel i think, i love the 'plenty of time to sleep when i'm dead', wish i was brave enought to have it tattooed in chinese letters on my arm a la david yum beckham.my driving is too shocking for words at the mo and wish i cd buy a warning sign that said my baby believes sleep is for the weak, that wd scare the tailgaters. am feeling optimistic now, am so glad logged on as was feeling tad despondent, DD had good 90 min nap morning, only woken by the little brown dog barking at the audacity of our next door neighbour to walk up his own drive.then another 45 mins nap this afternoon when walking the mutt. have been running into real trouble last couple of wks with afternoon nap getting 5=6ish time and then manic bedtime. hoping todays naps were better timed so poss better night [rolling eyes].i've added a massage into DDs bedtime routine so after bath and before milk, shesnot lying still at all for it and am spilling oil all over her bedroom carpet but am hoping she might eventually lie still and chill out a bit more for it.sleepy vibes to all children, has anyone tried the Lush ickle baby bath bomb?supposed to be sleep inducing but not sure if i can use it on an under 1yr old.also cant remember who was thinking about music but the putumayo music 'dreamland:lullabies' is amazing.
moljam, have humungous amt of organic local cauliflower, courgette and broccoli ice cubes that dd HATES in freezer!night after cauliflower i cd hear her bottomburps on the baby monitor and they were waking her up!
iris i thought it was your 21st hope you are going to get gorg new outfit too.

iris66 Fri 27-Oct-06 08:14:16

bottomburp - snap for the bad night last night I made the Annabel Karmel butternut squash risotto for DS last night (went down a storm) but put too much onion in it for him as I was making it for all of us. Mucho wind & wakings hourly from 1.30am. Cauliflower has the same effect poor lamb.

hope everyone else had a better night[hopeful emoticon}

moljam Fri 27-Oct-06 08:58:17

welcome new non sleepers!
im here to boost im afraid!!!!ds went to bed at 7.30 and woke at 6.30am!no night wakings what so ever!im trying to remember everything i did yesterday and do same again!i feel great!sorry to boost,got to tell people that will understand how amazing it is!

iris66 Fri 27-Oct-06 09:18:27

moljam - WOW!!!! I'm soooo pleased for you!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

moljam Fri 27-Oct-06 10:09:11

i cannot believe my luck!!!!!!!!hes just gone down for nap,in bed!sleeping peacefully!whats going on?he probably wont sleep long but hes in bed!!!!!!!maybe that book is magic,just having it in house makes them sleep!

Difers Fri 27-Oct-06 11:26:12

Moljam - WOW What are you doing??? I hope you slept too!!!

danceswithbaby Fri 27-Oct-06 13:01:54

Moljam! .

You probably just saved my copy of the book from the recycling sack....

If you do remember everything you did yesterday please write it down.

(That's SO brilliant for you though, well done!)

momomama Fri 27-Oct-06 14:11:13

Hiya girlies
Wow I feel as though I've not been on for ages, so much news!
Firstly I've not went over to the dark side (CC) yet!!! Although I do have a new focus of like you Iris stopping BF through the night. I've decided I need to start drinking alcohol again, its this clean lifestyle that is making me tired, cranky, anxious! So onwards and upwards!
Moljam wow wheeeee! How fabulous??? I cannot believe it would happen so quickly but go girl.
Glads the wee one's cold has lifted Difers, that should make a bit of a difference. Its so horrible when they're not well too just make sure you don't catch it!
As for Manuka, you sound like you need to give yourself a break. If you're feeling really bad about stuff you could maybe go and talk to a counsellor or therapist. You actually gave me a lot to think about too so thankyou for your comments too.
Anyhow DD fast asleep in cot for nap (its been over 40 mins), DP is back in the big bed which is good for cuddles and support, I think teamwork is the way ahead and I'm feeling marginally less knackered. Fingers crossed maybe Moljam's miracle will spread.

fluffyanimal Fri 27-Oct-06 16:22:15

Hello, can I join in? DS is 7 months and with a totally erratic sleep pattern. Some nights can be great, but others, and with increasing frequency, are crap (although I hope you wont all feel I'm fussing over nothing as I know many of you have it worse than me). but take last night as an example:
Goes down at 8pm.
Wakes at 3am settles back with cuddle and finger-suck.
Wakes at 4am settles back with cuddle and finger-suck.
Wakes at 5am I give bottle, change nappy, cuddle and finger-suck, goes back to sleep at 6am until 8am.

The thing is he won't go to sleep without sucking my finger. This is what I did when I stopped bf as previously I always bf to sleep. He hardly ever goes to sleep without it, even for daytime naps. Consequently, he won't go to bed for DH. See this lovely rod? I made it for my own back...

Have just ordered NCSS and Baby Whisperer, and am sitting here with a lovey in my bra

moljam Fri 27-Oct-06 17:14:18

fluffyanimal,sounds like your having fun same as rest of us!
LO slept for 2 hours in bed for morning nap,did i nap too,no!my eldest 2 (6 and 5)are off school so no naps for this mummy!but i was a bit naughty,when it got to 3pm i had friends over so didnt even try to put him down to nap,there were 4 lively children running round so dont think it would have worked but does that mean hes unlikely to sleep so well tonight!?i had 1 nights sleep,i shouldnt be so greedy and expect more!
momomama,its not only happened quickly,its happened before reading more than half book!!!!!!!!!!

iris66 Fri 27-Oct-06 21:20:08

fluffyanimal - welcome - hope you benefit from all the wonderful support here.

whinge alert ignore if you're feeling fragile....sorry to moan but I'm on my knees. Crappy night last night but for some unknown reason I was like a woman possessed & decided to go on a cleaning spree from 6 am - trying to get every job known to woman done in record time (on the plus side my house is now pretty sparkling & all the washing is done). Ds has had 2 hour long naps (so good) & went down at 7.30 but has been up 3 times already and I just feel so worn out now from being punched/elbowed in the throat, bitten, pinched and kicked (oh is he boistrous!)and that's only playing during the day. I know I've got a night of kick boxing and nipple biting to come. I just want to cry.
sorry to be such a moaner but just needed to get it out - why is there not "no cry and very quick to sleep" solution?!!!!
will probably be better tomorrow - my mum has been having a go "rod for own back" etc etc & bumped into friends this afternoon who were when I told them DH in spare room because DS in cosleeping which really didn't help........feel pants mother/wife...

iris66 Fri 27-Oct-06 21:26:42

am taking myself off to bed - hope everyone has a better night.

iris66 Sat 28-Oct-06 07:58:09

sorry about that....

DH had DS all last night for the first time & I've no idea how he slept (or not - suspect they dozed in front of the TV) but I actually had a full night's sleep!!!

I feel so much better today (though a tad guilty for some daft reason) & DS is happy & bouncy and had a mega bf at 7 when DH brought him in (thought I was going to explode - I'd forgotten what that was like ) It'll be interesting to see how he naps today (and to find out if he actually went in his cot!)
Hope you all had good nights (there's a lot to be said about giving yourself a break I think (as per the book). off to make brekkie

momomama Sat 28-Oct-06 09:43:40

Iris, well done. I'm going to suggest this to DP as a way of moving forward. I've started doing a 'dream feed' of formula at around 11ish or whenever dd wakes up and she's taken it fine much to my surprise. She slept a bit longer following this but I wakened exactly 3 hours after she had been sleeping and couldn't go back to sleep myself - sods law!
I am now on a mission though and nothing is going to stop me!
As for your domestic godessness - wow! DP actually asked me if we'd been burgled house is such a state.

Difers Sat 28-Oct-06 10:59:33

Iris, Well done, I might also suggest that to DH as a way forward too...!!!!

The way to deal with the partner in another room scenario is to tell people that hubby sleeps in another room and when that concerned 'oh you must never have sex and your marriage is clearly over' look fleets across their face, say breezily, "We have loads of sex though" (even if not true. It always works!!!

Discussed evening off with hubby, he said "oh god" it may be a no no.

BBWBabeLisa Sat 28-Oct-06 11:15:10

momomama - here have an ice cold glass of chardonnay (it's been sitting in my fridge for an unknown length of time - but am sure it's drinkable!)

Iris - Congrats on getting a good sleep last night! Wanna come and start on my house next? I'm trying to do the FlyLady thing, but rather unsuccessfully as yet. I dread to think what state the place would be in if I was as sleep deprived as most of you, the fact that you can still clean at all amazes me.

My book arrived yesterday!!!

On Thursday night I decided to let her totally dictate sleep & bedtime, to see what time she would naturally want to go to bed if left to her own devices (that and pure laziness as I couldn't face another evening of fighting to get her to go down). She had a brief nap on her beanbag chair at around 7ish, then spent the evening playing with her toys on the floor, then went to sleep properly at 11pm. There was no fighting/crying/whingeing, and I thought that meant I would just have to go with an 11pm bedtime from now on to fit in with her body clock. She slept til 9.30am. I figured with the clocks about to go back that wasn't at all bad (and I know so many of you would give your right arm for that, I'm not complaining at all, honest), as that'd mean she'd be in bed by 10, and up by 8.30. I started reading the book as soon as it arrived and decided to put into practice the advice about making bedtime earlier (I decided to go with the option of just doing bedtime at the time I want it to be, regardless of how much earlier than normal that is - rather than the making it earlier by 15 minutes every few days option). I began her bedtime routine at 8.45 (as post-clock-change I'd like her to go to bed around 8ish) and put her down awake at 9.15. To my surprise she went to sleep by herself without a tear. I was sure she'd treat it as a nap and wake up shortly afterwards, so I had a bottle ready and waiting to dash in before she had a chance to fully awaken and soothe her back to sleep. She slept til 8.40am without stirring! She's napping on the sofa now (since 11am). I'm going to read some more of the book now!

danceswithbaby Sat 28-Oct-06 14:49:54

Well done Iris!

I must admit that the way I field questions now is to lie through my teeth. eg.
Q. "How's she sleeping?" A. fine thanks!
Q. "How's she getting on with solids?" A. "fine thanks!"

Nothing new to report here. I think the one time DD slept through the half hour must have been a blip. Still no sleep stretch longer than 2.5hrs.

I really don't mind b/f her to sleep, I think it's a lovely, natural way and it's a real shame that we think of it as a 'trap' and 'making a rod...' etc. DD always goes to sleep easily and happily. It's getting her to stay there that's the problem.

I know that Current Thinking says that babies from 6 months are 'capable' of soothing themselves to sleep and of sleeping for 12 hours. Well, I'm 'capable' of doing back-flips but I'm buggered if I'm going to try. It'd take more than 6 months that's for sure.

In a Mum & Baby changing room yesterday we saw a baby lying flat on it's back with a bottle stuck in it's mouth. The mother didn't bother to even hold her baby when she fed him. I can't understand why she didn't just park him in a cot and feed him intravenously. Save on the washing up.

I bet that baby soothes himself to sleep every night though, and doesn't dare to wake before he's supposed to. Is this was Currrent Thinking is leading people to do?

On the other hand, I bet that baby never looks at his mum like dd looks at me. Sometimes when our eyes meet and I smile at her I can almost see the good, happy feeling surge through her little body and spill out of her eyes. She makes a little gurgle and holds out her arms to me. I don't think I'd exchange that for a good night's sleep.

Anyway (clambering clumsily off her high horse , as my dd seems to be one of the worse sleepers on this thread, it's a good job I'm feeling positive!

I'm SO glad that some of you have seen such improvement.

hotpot Sat 28-Oct-06 22:01:54

Hello, I am new to MN and am just finding my feet with the threads.

I have just ordered NCSS and Baby Whisp solves all your problems (does she mention how to get the housework done too?)

DS1 is 3 and I did baby whisperer PUPD from him being 8 weeks, worked like a charm and he slept through from 9 weeks 7-7 hoorah. DS2 is 5 months was terribly poorly from day 1, severely jaundiced and then reflux. He sleeps on me in the day, I am his bed and then at night he sleeps in his cotbed but frequent wakings and needing/wanting water (not milk) has finally taken its toll on me and DH.

He is on prescription milk and I started to do PUPD one night and he was quite responsive but I was exhausted from doing it all myself (DH is an absolute star with the boys) then the next night DS2 has terrible cold and can't breathe so allowed him to fall asleep in my arms as normal then turfed into cot, DS1 then wakes with croup after touching some dubious Christmas decorations and having an allergic reaction to them.

By 5am I end up taking DS2 into our bed where he sleeps in the crook of my arm and my shoulder hurts like hell the next day. He is not content to lie next to me (plus DH is 6'3" big fella and is scared of rolling over onto him)

Am now waiting for books to arrive (knew I should have forked for express delivery) and will start again. I am SAHM so no plans to put DS2 in nursery etc.

It is reassuring to know that I am not alone in being awake at ridiculous times in the night and that it does seem to be natural to cuddle/feed our babies to sleep. I couldn't do CC it would tear me apart, listening to DS2 scream in pain with reflux before we found a solution that worked for him was heartbreaking.

Difers Sun 29-Oct-06 09:39:46

Dear Hotpot, welcome on board, the baby whisperer didn't solve all my problems as like yourself I found PU/PD physically too tiring to do but I have found that the NCSS is improving DS sleeps slowly and gently. It's taken a while especially I am not very good at sticking with plans. I'm sorry that your baby was poorly and glad he is better now. DS had jaundice and never cried at all until the MW put him in a phototherapy cot naked with all the lights but without a mattress heater, he cried for 3 hours until the morning shift came on and realised that he was cold. Since that day I can't bear him to cry and get really distressed whenever he does cry, so I know how you feel. I don't think babies cry for no reason it it just sometimes a reason that we can't readily see.

moljam Sun 29-Oct-06 10:05:45

well after a good night and day the other day its back to normal!no sleep!and guess which mummy forgot the clocks went back and was eating breakfast at 4.45!i have started to fill in logs for whats happening now to see his usual sleep.im dreading having to write down in night,i'll probably end up writting on wall!after each bad night i wake up thinking im going to get cot but i love cosleeping and know if i got cot he wouldnt sleep and id end up doing something like pupd and i really dont want too.i love idea of a night off,i'll see what dh thinks!lo will proberbly sleep all night!

iris66 Sun 29-Oct-06 12:53:00

hi all
hotpot - welcome to the thread. Sounds like you've been having a bit of a time of it Hope your books arrive soon.

Difers - what an awful story! no wonder you hate hearing him cry.

DH stayed in DS's room last night & he slept 7 hours straight! 2.30 - 3 he had a bit of a grizzle & DH cuddled him back down into his cot but it wasn't so bad that I felt I needed to feed him (so really was no more than a half asleep moan - I normally rush in there!) I was awake though & couldn't get back to sleep until about 5. He woke again at 6.30 so pretty good I think (fingers crossed..fingerscrossed...)

He seems to be totally ok with the lack of bf at night (not even having a dream feed)but I have to admit I'm bf more during the day to make up & still bf & cuddle to sleep for naps (not that i'm feeling guilty at denying him or anything - how daft am I)

moljam - I actually never got round to doing the log (I may yet though) I think my commitment levels to following the plan rigidly leave something to be desired which is probably why I have trouble seeing the improvements (though they have been pretty huge this week)

Hope the time change hasn't been too bad for everyone (we've done it in one go & DS even delayed his "I need my morning nap" routine which was surprising)

Happy Sunday everyone

momomama Sun 29-Oct-06 17:59:09

Babelisa I'm drooling thinking of the lovely wine, that thought should increase my focus a bit.
Danceswithbabies you are probably right about how our babies tune into us and I think you are doing remarkably well to keep calm and positive in the face of lets face it no where near enough sleep. I know its hard but I really think comparisons with others are unhelpful, they've been the source of too much of my giving myself a hard time because I think I come off looking chaotic and shit compared to loads of my friends. things have evolved the way they have and I need to focus on where I want to go and how I want to get there. Just stick with your instincts and you can't be far wrong.
Moljam, I stand corrected. The speed not fast enough for any of us, I was just jealous and pleased for you. I can't believe it was so short lived, its almost worse having your expectations raised then dashed eh!
I am really exhausted today and feeling a bit flat again so knowing you're all out there in sleepy cyberland has made me feel less alone. The formula dream feed is certainly helping a bit and I'm going to keep trying that with the addition of cooled down boiled water for later feedings from tomorrow. I'm DREADING that!!!! DP going to give me a break one night this week so thanks for the suggestion Iris. How did your DH survive? Did baby sleep better/worse?
Hotpot welcome to our world.....

momomama Sun 29-Oct-06 18:03:28

Iris, am I going mad? Is this the second night your DH has been on the nightshift? WOW, this will be suggested to DP as a model of how to move forward. Congratulations!!!!!
(I'm so tired obviously missed the critical info 1st time)

BBWBabeLisa Sun 29-Oct-06 20:01:00

Nights off are for winners! Can't reccomend it enough. For a while now I've had every Friday night off. I put DD down at her bedtime (coz it's just easier), then I'm off duty til whenever I wake up on Saturday. If she wakes up after I've put her down DH deals with it (coz I'm usually sat with my fet up sipping a large JD & Coke on the rocks, and he gets up with her in the morning while I sleep til lunchtime. Kinda makes the week more bearable when I have Saturday mornings to look forward to. DH then has his lie-in on Sunday morning, then weekdays we're both up early. Unfortunately he'll be in Belize til around 16th December so no nights off for the forseeable

iris66 Sun 29-Oct-06 20:01:32

momomama - DH said he'd do the nights for 4 nights because
a) he's been around a fair bit lately (works away a lot sometimes for long spells) and so DS doesn't get hysterical if he goes in to him at the moment
b) he's got a few days leave, and
c) I'm really not functioning very well on any level at the moment and haven't been for a while & he's starting to recognise this & wants to help (TBH pnd is at the back of my mind & I'm hoping to keep it there - or make it go away)

I know I'm not really doing NCSS at night at the moment & so ought to bugger off the thread but I really value the support so does anyone object if I hang around? (please be honest - I wont mind )

Difers Sun 29-Oct-06 20:10:39

I don't mind if you stay on as long as I can stay on too as I'm having another lapse in the NCSS plan aswell.

iris66 Sun 29-Oct-06 20:37:43

Difers - thanks <<hug>> but I bet you are doing NCSS really..I've just been reading the book and discover (to my infinate joy) that we are still pretty much in keeping with NCSS at night (p137 - moving baby to own room) (guilt trip neatly avoided )

Thinking logically, we're on here as none of us want distressed babies so we're always going to be doing something that's written in the book (or variations of it) and so I figure that if it fulfils the no cry/comforted and contented baby criterion it's gotta be ok (hasn't it?? - or am I having "a moment"? Though probably my "moment" is that I'm actually thinking about all of this so seriously )

moljam Sun 29-Oct-06 21:14:56

both of you defiantly need to keepposting,i think it helps talking to like minded people even if youre unable to follow ncss at moment.ive only just started following it but have been posting on thread for a while.iris,hope you get rest you need,hope you dont have pnd.i find dancing helps!our favorite is aretha franklin,we dance round room singing at top of lungs to stop sad feelings!
bbwbabellisa,sounds great!what a fantastic husband you have!i suggested night off to my dh he kind of agreed but we'll see.i dont think hed do it weekly though!

somethingunderthebedisdrooling Sun 29-Oct-06 21:17:29

Belize BBWLisa? i'm from Belize. sigh....

bottomlessburp Sun 29-Oct-06 23:02:20

Hurrah finally thought of a halloween-ish name!
Iris this thread wouldnt be the same without you, you started it for goodness sake! and now you have made me confess that i havent read my book yet, yikes, can only plead too tired to start.will defo start it by end of this week.
after 2 absolute shockers of nights with cumulative 2hrs sleep (DD had huge bags under her eyes on fri morn whilst i had no eyes whatsoever) have had 2 bearable ones.both days DD has had a 1.5hrs nap in her cot in morning about 10.30ish and then a 30-60min nap about 5pm.the one thing that seems to help her nap markedly is if i close her bedroom door (always have monitor on).also think DH getting up at 5.45am must always wake DD as she always sleeps longer at weekends.last night bed at 8.30pm, she seems to be enjoying her massage now as lays still for it for 5 mins, then awake at 3am for 50 mins then asleep until 8.30am old time.i was in sucha good mood which is lucky as dealing with in laws is requiring a LOT of patience today.however tonight DD already woken up once and can hear her shuffling about on monitor now .saw a top tooth coming thru yesterday so maybe explains particularly bad nights but sometimes feel am always making excuses.....colds...teeth....overtired....etcetc

big welcome to hotpot, mummyscaryhouse and fluffyanimal.it feels so much better when you ard up in the night to imagine the other mums on here also up.

danceswithbabys - i feel just the same when ou wrote about your child looking at you when BFg to sleep.i dont know why some mums didnt just buy themselves a new handbag instead of having a baby, they look like it'd cheer them up more.my sil is big routine and cc fan, hence mil thinks it is only way to do it and keeps asking DH in shocked tones ;is she still feeding her at night?and keeps telling me to stop bfg.have never even seen sil touch her baby and is 12wks old!

anyway more stirrings on monitor so had better get going, good luck all, sleepy vibes to all bambinos.

iris and moljam big congrats for your great nights

tigertum Mon 30-Oct-06 00:16:17

I didn't try the 'solution' itself but I used the general advice in the book and it helped sooo much. Not just in terms of helping DS sleep, but just the kind, sympathetic loving approach to babycare. By far the best baby care book I have ever read.

BBWBabeLisa Mon 30-Oct-06 00:20:41

Seriously SUTBID? Small world! He left for there almost a week ago but due to a plane fault got stuck in the US til yesterday. I'm guessing it's pretty hot there at the moment coz every time he texts me he's just been swimming!
Why the sigh hon? Homesick?

BBWBabeLisa Mon 30-Oct-06 00:36:41

P.S. Every night since I received my book (can't remember which day it was now) DD has gone down like a dream and stayed down. Was stunned that the advice worked first go. Tonight she fell asleep halfway thru her bedtime bottle tho, so woke around 11pm and took another 4oz but happily went back down without a fuss. Hoping that's her for the night now. SO glad I bought that book, I'd never have known about it if you hadn't mentioned it in our January thread Iris , thank you and big hugs.
It was really only the one piece of advice in it that I used, it just gave me the confidence to try it when all my instincts before had been that putting her down so much earlier than she'd got used to would just lead to more problems. It didn't. She went from going to sleep at 11pm to going down at 8.30 (now 7.30 with DST) like a dream. Really hope I'm not tempting fate with that remark, but just hoping it gives others some light at the end of the tunnel. I know DD wasn't nearly as wakeful as most, but I'm sure given a wee bit of time it works for most. It certainly makes more sense to me than many other theories I've read about.
Keep you chin up Iris, and take DH up on as many nights off as you can. You need to look after yourself before you can look after anyone else. Ya know where we are if you wanna chat. Lis x

fluffyanimal Mon 30-Oct-06 08:24:45

Iris, so that your dh can do some night shift. Just wish fluffybaby would settle with anyone but me. Also, my dh is always on cat duty at night (we have a neurotic cat) so we are both always up at least once a night! Fluffybaby has cold at the mo, woke just as we were coning to bed and screamed for an hour inconsolable. But then later in the night he deceided he didn;t need to suck my finger to settle him thank you very much and would suck his own thumb like a big boy. Is this a breakthrough?

BikeBug Mon 30-Oct-06 09:14:20

hello all, just signing back in as my BT connection went kaput last week. No phone, no internet until the bloke from BT (the most miserable man in the world) turned up and fixed the problem in less than 2 minutes. Days and days of MN deprivation, shudder.

We've had a few nights of 2 hour sleep blocks so last night I moved ds out of our bed to his cot, as none of us were getting any sleep . I felt really mean and selfish putting him down to sleep alone, and I missed having his little warm self next to me, but his sleep was actually a bit better - awake at 12.10, 2.30 and 6 am. Which would have been fine, but at 2.30 he was not going back into that cot by himself! It took me until 3.15 cuddling, feeding, lying on the spare bed saying 'relax, sleepy-tired' to him while he thrashed about, crossly, until he was tired enough to go back to sleep.

Does anyone else feel like they are doing pretty much everything in the book already? I keep looking through it thinking that ds doesn't feed to sleep, has lots of different sleep associations, lots of the advice isn't relevant, he just won't stay asleep. I've been trying waking him up just before his usual waking time in the evenings, but it has only worked once out of 3 goes. Anyway, rambling now, sorry for mammoth essay! Hi to everyone I haven't spoken to before, welcome to the sleepless zone!

iris66 Mon 30-Oct-06 09:49:04

Lisa - so pleased DD is sleeping better for you now.

Fluffyanimal - don't be too DS was in with me again last night so DH got his full 8 hours grrrr. DS didn't have an afternoon nap yesterday or a bf (we were at a halloween kids party & there was too much going on for him to be interested)or much for his tea. I felt so bad at potentially leaving him hungry I bf 6-7.30 then bf when he woke at 10 so DH said "he just as well stay with you tonight yes?" my knackered mumble didn't cut much so we were back to a fidgety night & awake from 3.

danceswithbaby Mon 30-Oct-06 09:55:37

Hi all,
I feel like my eyes are burning holes in my head this morning. DD's naps went out of the window because I had to work all day Saturday then with the clock shift I had no hope yesterday. Poor babe is all over the place at the moment. As are my sleep logs.

Iris, please don't think of leaving your thread!

Momomama, thank you for your kind comments. After seeing my close friend loose her two year old and then my own horribly nasty miscarriage, I still tend to get upset when I see how some people treat their babies. But there's no excuse for intolerance. You are right, comparison is unhelpful and if I can't control my feelings I should at least keep them to myself - sorry everyone

iris66 Mon 30-Oct-06 10:15:56

tigertum - thanks for your positive input - gives hope to us all I agree it really is a beautiful parenting book.

danceswithbaby - you have nothing to apologise for !!! But do sound like you could use a hug <<<<hug>>>>
Bloody hell if we can't vent here where can we? I'm always moaning on here (it's my therapy ), I'd explode (more )in RL otherwise

moljam - thanks for the dancing tip - made me (and may try later)

bottomlessburp - (like the new name btw ) - changes in light levels seem to affect DS too.

bikebug - I'm focussing on believing that I need to help DS learn to resettling himself rather than thinking about how many times he wakes up.

iris66 Mon 30-Oct-06 10:25:51

PS - thanks for your encouraging words everyone.

moljam Mon 30-Oct-06 10:44:02

i just wrote long reply and lost it!how do you get your lo's to go for nap?im having trouble getting ds to nap!glad to hear tigertum that the book worked so well for you,which bits did you find most helpful.ive only just started,we logged usual sleep pattern yesterday but i keep thinking of giving up already!im desperate,as i know we all are!keep thinking surely baby whisperers not that bad but then wed have to give up cosleeping

BikeBug Mon 30-Oct-06 11:05:11

Iris & Difers please keep posting! I agree with moljam - it's talking to like minded people whether or not you're following the plan properly. Lisa - wow, I'm really glad the books suggestions worked for you, send some positive vibes this way .

On a different note, has anyone tried cranial osteopathy with their lo? I should go and start a separate thread really, but just wondered if anyone here had tried it and whether it was any good??

moljam Mon 30-Oct-06 12:29:35

my cousins dd had it done as baby!worked brilliantly apparently!

fluffyanimal Mon 30-Oct-06 16:10:50

My copy of NCSS just arrived. I've only read the first few pages but already feel much more confident about dealing with family and friends who tell me just to let him cry. I feel better in myself that I'm not being soft (cos I'm a real disciplinarian me ), but also hopeful that there are better ways to get fluffybaby to sleep.

moljam Mon 30-Oct-06 16:18:44

when she describes in book for crib baby,(which we arent but are considering!)sounds alot like pu/pd anyone else think so?have i misunderstood?weve started day one of sleep log!well naps anyway!for those of you who have been keeping logs,how long have you been doing it and how long did it take to see difference?i just can see how its going to work and i know i shouldnt be saying that i should have lots of faith in it so it works!but....aaarrrggghhh!

san2 Mon 30-Oct-06 16:34:22

Hi am new to this thread!
CAn anyone tell me what the No cry sleep solution is? And how much success are you having?
DS now 24 weeks and nights broken (goes down ok if v relaxed and sleepy) and day naps difficult and short (is this affecting his night time sleep?)
So many people say leave them to cry. Have struggled with that concept from the off but feeling stressed/anxious about his sleep and not enjoying him as much as I should be (cos he is very cute and funny) so wondering if I should go down that route?!?

thanks

iris66 Mon 30-Oct-06 18:04:44

fluffyanimal - you're not soft, just caring and in tune with your baby

moljam - I think the crib/family bed thing are options to get your LO use to sleeping on their own a bit more (and therefore self settle) rather than PUPD - though I may have misread it myself! I tried a varation on the theme by letting DS have the top half of the bed whilst I lay across the bottom keeping contact to a minimum between bf (obviously wont work so well if you want to continue co-sleeping) DS certainly woke more last night when he was back in with me.

san2 - welcome The No Cry Sleep Solution is a book by Elizabeth Pantley and describes a gentle way of encouraging your baby to go to sleep by themselves (and sleep for longer because they can resettle themselves when they wake)using sleep cues such as a wind down routine, music, cuddly toy etc.

It's by no means a quick fix - I've been at it (albeit not rigidly) for 6 weeks now and although DS doesn't sleep through yet his daytime naps are much longer & more consistent. He's getting there slowly at night as a result. Others on the thread have had varying degrees of success too.

Each baby is different, and only you can tell if it's the right way for you, but if the thought of CC leaves you as anxious as your current lack of sleep I'd say this thread is for you - the support here is amazing

Difers Mon 30-Oct-06 19:30:45

Hello everyone,

Moljam, I found that the sleep logs are useful in analysing what is actually going on in order to focus on the solutions that are best going to help but in some ways I found them very useful to do as I realised that DS wasn't hungry and needing food, then it became very clear that he was teething as his sleep pattern changed alot so I feel a bit more of a capable mum as a result.

eg// My case - DS's suck to sleep association, hence trying the removal technique and secondly the lack of decent naps during the day leading to overtiredness and difficulty settling at nights. The naps are going well but I like bf him to sleep, also he's just getting used to his new teeth and biting a bit - Iris - I think you had this problem!!!

I'm having a break as I'm moving house next week so I will be back on the plan when I get settled. The HV suggested not even bothering to tackle a sleep issue whilst living at my mums house while we buy our new home. (She has met my mum though)

San1 - Welcome, I think the success depends on what the issue is and what needs to change to remedy it and whether you want that change just yet! (I thinking about me and how I quite like to feed him to sleep if i'm really honest) It's a very nourishing book and really worth the read as it doesn't make you feel bad for doing things like feeding baby to sleep as some books do.

hayles78 Mon 30-Oct-06 23:06:48

hello - am new to mumsnet and have just read thread after seeking out advice and help with getting baby down to sleep - i dont know all the abbreviations yet (DD DS or DC mean nothing to me although think they refer to our babies??). My lovely baby girl is 5 weeks old now and has always fell asleep breastfeeding or on me but now shes getting bigger and things have settled since the first newborn weeks i feel i should try and get her to sleep properly ie in her moses basket. Currently i have managed by a mix of putting her down after b/f, cuddling or sometimes co-sleeping however if trying to put her down in moses basket she always wakes up and the whole feed and sleep process can start again. very rarely i can get her down without her waking up or by putting her down while happily awake. i have to admit to having her sleep on me while i lay on the sofa when ive been too tired to try the moses b. I have just ordered the ncss bok that everybody is talking about and feel quite comforted by the amount of people that do the same as me - i too could never even contemplate the CC approach. Its quite funny how a few comments from the health visitor can make me feel so guilty that im not getting her to sleep 'properly' and that im doing it all wrong and to be honest despite this being my second (first is 8 now) i havent a clue as to where to begin (well i kinda do but confidence in myself is pretty poor which tends to make me ignore my instincts and focus more on what everyone else says).

momomama Tue 31-Oct-06 08:28:34

Hiya everyone,
well the formula 'dream feed' has became a nightmare, DD has cottoned on and is totally refusing a bottle when mummy has breasts! if I wasn't so demented I'd be impressed by her supreme intelligence.
Can i just reinforce NO ONE IS LEAVING THIS THREAD! Its so lovely to hear how you're all doing on and off the programme (personally I'm more off than on, please don't expel me).
Iris so sorry you're feeling a bit frazzled, your DH's offer of 4 nights off has been mentioned to my DP 1000000 times, so he's going to give it a go! I know what you mean about pnd being in the back of your mind too. I'm sooo terrified of sliding into even more of a mess through sheer exhaustion. I've looked up loads of sleep deprivation websites and its not good reading for those of us who have had months of disrupted sleep, so take care folks! I've been doing the dancing singing to combat feelings of yukkiness - ta moljam

danceswithbaby Tue 31-Oct-06 09:49:25

I looked in the mirror this morning and realised it is Haloween. I haven't dared check out any sleep deprivation websites Momomama.

DD napped really well yesterday but last night was slightly worse even than usual. Why isn't it working??!

Bikebug, we seem to be doing everything the book suggests too, but she just won't STAY asleep. I think you were one who mentioned a 'high need' baby. Do you think that's got anything to do with it? Hightened sensitivity/survival instinct or something? DD always startles easily and doesn't seem to really deep sleep much.

Hi Hayles, we told our HV to sling her hook after she spent two hours on our soafa drinking tea and eating biscuits saying "you really should get some rest". You don't HAVE to see her if you don't want to. Trusting your instincts is absolutely the best thing you can do. Hard though, isn't it?

moljam Tue 31-Oct-06 12:53:20

hayles personnaly i think at 5 weeks,youre still in first few weeks,do what feels right for the 2 of you,worry about how and where later.by the way,dh-husband-ds-dear son-dd dear daughter etc.it is confusing!
momomamma,glad the dancing is working,just make sure the neighbours dont catch you!ds seems to love music as a result of our daily dance sessions!today and yesterday was cat stevens.we were having chilled day!
yesterday s naps went well once i eventually got him to go to sleep,last night he went to bed fine and only woke twice!and todays morning nap was great too!after what happened last time he slept well maybe i shouldnt tell anyone!how do you wait 10 days before recording log?i need to find new chill music,my cd is doing my head in,its beginning to sound like supermarket jingles!

iris66 Tue 31-Oct-06 13:23:31

cooo aren't we getting busy!!

hayles78 - hi there - I am inclined to agree with moljam. At 5 weeks your LO is still getting used to being outside & I know my DS just wanted to still hear a heartbeat (mine or DH's) & be cuddled all the while. Have you tried a sling? or swaddling her & having a muslin that smells of you in with her (sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs). Your instinct is the best guide though and will be right for you and your LO.

momomama - I am definately NOT looking into sleep depravation then

Bad luck with the formula. DS will only have about 2 ounces max during the day and never at night. He only does that because DH introduced it when he was really hungry).I heard somewhere that it takes two weeks to form a habit. Could your DP do the formula dreamfeed for a couple of weeks? (I'm assuming it was working before)

difers - I'm still bf to sleep at night but trying to change the day bf so naps are 1/2 hour later than bf. Today I bf at 10.30 went for a walk to the shop, wide awake, & he was asleep by 11.15 - and still is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hope it doesn't stop him from sleeping later though.

iris66 Tue 31-Oct-06 13:30:37

danceswithbaby - I've found that it took couple of weeks to "set" the naps enough for them to have an effect on the nights. I keep forgetting thata I'll never have a set routine anyway - their needs always change just as you think you've got it sussed oh the joys of motherhood

ps - on the subject of feeling crappy. I have discovered that, on the days when i feel particularly miserable, if I pile on the slap & get dressed up as if I'm going somewhere I actually feel better! The tip was passed on to me by a very good friend - works for me so thought I'd share

BikeBug Tue 31-Oct-06 13:38:58

'lo again all. I've just made an appointment for cranial osteopathy for my little sleepless lad, I'm a bit worried - I hope it is OK. I'm not very 'alternative therapy' really (a very teenage reaction to my lovely mum who believes in everything except physics. Naturally I became the family scientist and sceptic). Anyway, I hope it does some good - it really is distressing how he wakes crying so often, I don't think waking up with a shriek and crying before eyes are even open is the kind of waking that creating nice sleep associations is going to help with.

DWB, yes it probably was me that said 'high needs' - it's a lovely phrase from Sears Baby Book, so much better than calling babies 'difficult' or 'problem', which gets done so very often . I often use it to describe ds who is into everything, can't wind down, and needs a lot of stimulation, attention and touch and who absolutely does not play nicely by himself. At all. Ever. I think that kind of hypersensitivity does extend into nighttime and makes it far harder to sleep soundly than a more placid settled personality might manage. I also explain a lot of this to myself in terms of survival instincts and evolution. It honestly makes sense to me that ds doesn't sleep through, I can see that he is thinking the lions and tigers and bears are coming to get him, and it's a sensible reaction for cave-baby. But suburban-semi-baby needs a bit of help here!

BikeBug Tue 31-Oct-06 13:44:50

Iris, just thought I'd add - slapping on the slap, doing hair and wearing proper shoes, I do it too! Thought I'd organise my life a while back and started the FlyLady thing. It was far too much like hard work, but I did keep the getting dressed properly thing going, and it works for me (and the shiny sink thing, but thats another story ). Moljam, you've made me think I must try dancing too. If having ds can get me singing, dancing must be within my motherly powers

moljam Tue 31-Oct-06 15:57:20

i cant dance-but do!
my ds doesnt want to go for afternoon nap,weve walked,fed,bottle,sling everything!oh well!dh is doing bedtime tonight as im taking dd and ds to a party,im hoping hes going to stick to the ncss routine we worked out.doubt it though.

san2 Tue 31-Oct-06 16:58:03

Hi again.
Have been going through dilemma of whether to leave DS to cry for naps as even with dummy they were becoming fraught and nights were still broken and I was feeling desperate and some people make you feel like you have been too soft!
BF to sleep never really worked for us as I have a very windy chap.
Anyway, I realised that some of his wakings are because he jerks himself and can't resettle once he has started crying. We have been diving in with a dummy which works most of the time but not all. I then heard about a baby hammock and thought I would give it a try as DS really wanted to feel safe/secure when to sleep as a newborn.
3 nights in and he has only woken once each night for a feed. I have heard a few yelps but I think he then gets gently swayed and goes stratight back off.
Naps have become easier too. Initially he cried in it even with his dummy. Now it is as if he is moving his bottom to get it moving and help lull him off. (it doesn't stop him waking after 30mins in day though)
I know it is another prop and at some point he will outgrow it but he looked so happy this morning when he woke up that I am going to keep going with it. As nights have got much better don't feel like CC is worth the trauma for either of us in the day - PHEW!
If anyone else has a jerky baby or one who likes to feel coccooned this maybe worth a try.
they can be ordered from www.naturesnest.co.uk

san2 Tue 31-Oct-06 17:02:16

Bikebug
Hi! Just read your message. My DS also wakes shrieking with eyes closed too - it is as if he has had a fright - think it may still be the MORO reflex?!? Where they feel like they are falling - think it goes at 8 months.
Anyway - maybe hammock worth a go.
Also we did cranial osteopathy at start - think if they have any pressure in their cranium it helps with that. It has helped my DS digestive issues too. It is a worth a go to see if he settles better.

danceswithbaby Tue 31-Oct-06 20:27:19

Love the dancing Moljam! Now everyone Danceswithbaby

BikeBug Tue 31-Oct-06 21:15:50

Hi San2, I hadn't thought of the reflex - you might have something there. Ds is very nearly 8 months, perhaps it will stop soon (wishful thinking ...). I looked around at the hammocks a while ago and really wished I'd seen them sooner, but ds is already 21lbs so decided against buying one, but if there we have another one I don't think I will resist temptation...

<dances away to thoughts of more lovely babies>

Difers Wed 01-Nov-06 11:01:58

Hi Guys, Everyones sounding quite chirpy and happy. Are all our babies quite highly sensitive???

Shall we rename this thread "Happy Dancing Mums wearing makeup and heels" thread? According to my Occupational Therapy Textbook Dancing helps to stimulate or calm their vestibular system and therefore is uber beneficial in terms of development, our babies may not sleep now,but never mind, thanks to our loving arms, they will not be clumsy in the future.

Hayles - I'm sure you've heard the "warm the basket with a hot water bottle" tip.. (you then take it out of the cot before you put the baby in it).

More breakthoughs - DS went to sleep in cot last night at 7pm exactly semi asleep as opposed to asleep after BF. Also now sleeps in carseat and buggy without BF first. Awake just 2 times in the night 1.30am and 2.30am.

I wish I'd got that hammock, maybe for the next baby. Who wants another??? Is sleep deprov putting anyone off???

danceswithbaby Wed 01-Nov-06 15:35:25

Thanks for the info on the benefits of dancing Difers! As and ex-pro classical dancer and teacher I was dancing for hours every day up until 39 weeks pregnant and dance with DD ALL the time now. Glad I can do at least one thing right without even thinking!

Don't know if it's actually a breakthrough but DD seems to expect longer naps. Her nap this morning came to an untimely end about 40 minutes in because I hit the wring button and we were treated to a rousing chorus of 'girls and boys come out to play'. DD got really grumpy.

I did the hammock-thing. No good at all. This child will not be fobbed off with an inanimate substitue when there's a perfectly good mummy to be had!

danceswithbaby Wed 01-Nov-06 15:38:49

I forgot to say - I took your advice and I'm covered in slap today! Dunno if I feel better or just plain stupid....!

moljam Wed 01-Nov-06 16:54:01

we had awful night again but he didnt get up till 6am so kind of better!but 2 hour nap this morning!hes not wanted another but hes waking at 6,napping 9-11 and bed at 7(and up all night!)do you think he needs another nap?,hes 10 months.im finding it quite helpful for me having more of a routine.i usually run round doing stuff,forgetting stuff etc but im being quite organised,wonder how long that will last!im doing make up today!weve not had chance to dance!glad there is actually a reason!

Difers Wed 01-Nov-06 19:07:37

Sorry you had a bad night Moljam, hopefully tonight will be better! I hate to say it but I think DS has been much better since I have implemented a routine. Wake up 6-7am, Brekkie at 8, play until 9.30, Go in buggy sleeps, wakes plays, eats at 1pm, plays, 2.30pm sleeps in buggy, tea at 5pm, bath at 6pm, asleep at 7pm. BF's as and when. My probs really started when I moved to wales as before then I must of had a routine and not been aware of it. I'm really worried that the move will throw everything out of sync and it will take 2 months to get back to where I am now. We move friday!!!

Also, since I did the long post re: what to do if as a mum you can't sleep I've developed insommia!!!

DWB - good news about the naps. Shame about the hammock.

san2 Wed 01-Nov-06 19:41:30

Hi all

Knew I would tempt fate when I wrote that DS nights better with hammock. Last night not too good but I think it is teething pain as until I gave him calpol he didn't want to eat- poor lamb. Expecting a stormy night.
Does anyone else have any tips for helping them through the teething phase?

Also on naps - does anyone else's baby just do 30min naps? Am sure he needs/wants more but seems to wake up. Any advice out there?
Maybe I should try dancing with him to chill him out first!

iris66 Wed 01-Nov-06 20:46:35

Bikebug - good luck with the cranial osteopathy - I've heard really good things about it

Difers - your Lo's routine is virtually the same as mine (but then so is your insomnia - PITA isn't it )

danceswithbaby - PMSL over your hitting the wrong button (sorry) times like that you don't know whether to laugh or cry. However.... "to slap or not to slap" that, is the question I've been pondering. Don't slap, and you risk feeling even worse when your unexpected caller calls. Slap, and...... I can't think of a down side

Thought for the day.... I rarely eat sweets (apart from the obligatory daily Green & Blacks fix - obviosly ) but... I ate one small packet of haribo cola bottles today(the only ones with no E numbers listed - or are they hiding something....)then bf DS an hour later. He had a 2 hour manic session I can only describe as being worthy of an ADHD diagnosis and has taken over 1 1/2 hours to put to bed!!!!
Either a) there's something in those sweeties they're not telling us.... or
b) DS has one major sugar sensitivity

I'm sorry but I eat as may biccies as the next girl & I don't think sugar is a contender.......

ps - We've had a crappy few nights. DS has ended up with me. He's just woken again now (hysterical again )so must fly.

Difers Wed 01-Nov-06 21:09:50

Iris - Don't touch those haribo things - I know someone who ended up in hospital as a result of eating too much Haribo liquorice allsorts leading to a depletion of something.. she did eats lots though and not much else.


San1 - The NCSS book suggests that you get a baby to nap longer by going to them 5/10 minutes before they wake up and as soon as they stir, get them back to sleep by whatever method you normally use and eventually they will nap longer. IT WORKS!!! Bizarrely.

momomama Thu 02-Nov-06 09:09:01

Well DD now has another cold so no chance of any better sleeps unless she is plyed with calpol. She has just got over a cold too, has anyone else entered a perpetual state of runny noses?
Difers, I always wanted to have babies in quite quick succession but the lack of sleep has caused a rethink. I would definitely like another one but I now want to wait until DD a bit older before even trying. What about you? Have you been put off?
Sans2 I think for teething lots of cuddles and reassurance. I only use calpol as alast resort but it has worked for DD when she's really uncomfortable and sore. I don't think there is any way to totally avoid the discomfort for you or baby.
Poor Moljam and iris, its hard going when you're still not getting enough sleep. I feel like i'm taking one baby step forward and giant steps backward. fingers crossed tonight is better.
Incidently, I've discovered cbeebies, feel i need to confess zoning out with DD for balamory. Am I a bad mother?????? I want to be all creative and engaged with DD but am soooo tired all the time. I'll keep up the dancing tho', I like the idea of us all singing and dancing about (i was well impressed DWB, by 39 weeks I could barely get up off my ass!)

iris66 Thu 02-Nov-06 11:11:42

momomama - PMSL at "am I a bad mother... just discovered CBeebies!!" - DS isn't 10 moths yet & sits there agog when the Fimbles come on at bedtime (and no, I don't just let him watch bedtime hour - it seems to be on half the day here (not that DS watches it of course...it's merely background noise. He's too busy being amused by his earth mother's antics and participating in brain enhancing activities )

difers - don't you the move. Maybe the upheaval will sort your LO out! [hopeful emnoticon]

I'm broody as a very broody thing in broodisville at the mo (yes, despite the sleeplessness!)We'd planned for two - and I'm no spring chicken any more! Sadly, I need to convince DS to sleep first so DH can take a little wander back into our bedroom!!

Bikebug - has your LO had the cranial osteopathy yet? How'd it go?

danceswithbaby Thu 02-Nov-06 12:18:56

Bikebug, I'm curious about the cranial osteopathy too.

San2, my dd was the queen of the 30 minute naps but the tips in NCSS do actually seem to work, up to a point. I still have to get her back to sleep 30 minutes into her nap but then she's happy to sleep on for longer.

Broody did you say?? Just a bit. At this rate though, by the time I stop being a milk factory it'll be too late. There's no sign of business resuming as normal and then there's DH being relegaged to the spare bed... Let's just say the odds seem to be against it.

It I do manage to get pregnant again there'll be no dancing until 39 weeks, or 2 hour gym sessions. In the hope of a 'normal' baby there'll be sitting on the sofa for nine months and eating cake.

momomama Thu 02-Nov-06 13:38:42

broody hell

BikeBug Thu 02-Nov-06 15:16:46

ooh you broody items, I do so want more babies (yes, that's plural ). DS seems to be happiest in company, it would be doing him a great favour to provide siblings. But here too DH is pushed away in favour of the little non-sleeping person, so no idea how we're going to achieve it (well, I have an idea, I'm not that daft , but ... you know what I mean).

The cranial osteopathy has happened (thank you for asking!) , and DS is currently asleep on the sofa downstairs. He doesn't usually sleep at this time, so I'm putting it down to whatever the lady did to him. And I have absolutely no idea what that was. She just chatted away to me with her hands on him. And sympathised about my nasty birth story and DH working 7-7 and no family near etc etc, so I feel very sorry for myself now because sympathy does that. And DS smiled and laughed and tried to pull her hair and grab the buttons of her blouse . And then we went to the shops and he was very happy, and now he is fast asleep. I'm not sure what I expected - she didn't seem to actually do anything. And I paid £40, and made another appointment for next week. There's something about paying for healthcare which I am finding very uncomfortable, but I'll get over that very quickly if this works! I'll report back after tonight. It can't be worse than last night, he didn't sleep for more than an hour at a time all night [and there isn't an emoticon for feeling ghastly, and I need one!] I really, really have my fingers crossed for this, I am getting very tired now...

fluffyanimal Thu 02-Nov-06 16:27:43

Bikebug, will be interested to see if you notice a difference.

Monomama, fluffybaby has a cold too - and as there is no more powerful biological weapon than a baby cold, dh and I have it too. Lucky us can have night nurse or the liquid cosh as I call it. Was expecting lots of disturbed nights but - it may be too early to say - have been putting ds to bed earlier the last two nights, and he has [whisper it] ^slept through^!

Difers Thu 02-Nov-06 19:23:02

Good, glad you are all broody too. Yep, this milking business does hold things up and DH's in other rooms doesn't help much either. I held a 2 week old at Tiddlers today I can't believe that DS was ever that small and helpless. I notice her mum has less bags under the eyes than me!!! Still one day soon our babies will sleep through the nights and we will love once more.

I have also heard great things about Cranial Scracal Therapy.

Move tomorrow!!!

moljam Thu 02-Nov-06 19:56:18

difers good luck for tomorrow.today we had fab naps!2 hours in morning,hour in afternoon but this dumb mummy didnt make most of it.in morning for whole 2 hours i babysat another 10 month old,in afternoon i was feeding a 6 month old her lunch!silly mummy!went to bed great tonight so heres hoping for best!

moljam Thu 02-Nov-06 19:57:49

just remembered,we use cloth nappies and im wondering if wet on his skin could be causing him to fidget be uncomfy and wake,any one have any advice?im looking for a reason for no sleep!

iris66 Thu 02-Nov-06 20:20:42

fluffyanimal - fab news on the sleeping through!!!!!!!!!!! (I did whisper that - honest - don't want to jinx!!)

Bikebug - sounds like a positive result so far to me! Big fingers crossed for tonight XX

Difers - good luck for tomorrow's move

moljam - it's awful when you're trying to find reasons for them not sleeping isn't it (I still find myself doing it and it's never anything I can pinpoint )my DS is in cloth too. FWIW I rarely change him at night & really don't think the dampness is an issue. Hope your LO sleeps well after his brilliant napping sessions today

DH has DS again tonight after 2 nights off (tired I think ) I'm going to bed early with a good book. night all x

moljam Thu 02-Nov-06 21:45:09

night iris!my dh has buggered off to france on holiday!

MAZinOZ Fri 03-Nov-06 03:01:38

Hello fellow sleep deprived mummies, I'm new to mumsnet but have been finding great solace and comfort in your messages in my addled and often miserable state. I have a DS who is 3 onetime sleepless little rotter now fully reformed. Also have a DD 4 weeks who is giving us hurry curry at night but sleeps all day with very little intervention. Am so very knackered, can anyone fill me in on what NCSS is, have found the energy to be intrigued!

fluffyanimal Fri 03-Nov-06 08:19:31

Hi Maz, it's a book by E. Pantley, involves v. gentle ways of forming good sleep habits. Results take time but it looks to be worth it.

Well I jinxed myself didn't I. Ds woke - only once - but stayed awake for about 2 hours, I despaired of getting him back to sleep. He sucked finger - no joy. Had a bottle - no joy, He wasn't unhappy, just wide awake. In the end I thought I'd better change nappy, so put him down and went to bathroom for water. Came back - fast asleep!

Moljam, we use cloth too and I don't notice any difference in sleep from the nights he is in disposables.

momomama Fri 03-Nov-06 09:03:58

Difers, hope the move is well underway and you're surviving!
Fluffy animal, sorry your success didn't last. The cold is waning but DD's sleep unaffected, still up every three hours. We've hit a plateau.
Bikebug, I know what you meanabout paying for healthcare but if it works this whole thread will be following suit! I really hope it works for you, you sound knackered and in need of something lovely to cheer you up ((hugs))
Moljam - HOLIDAY??? FRANCE??? I'm speechless, you must be a lovely partner, I moan if DP goes to the supermarket never mind on holiday!
TFIF maybe get a break this weekend, DP promised to do a nightshift.... I wonder if he'll back out?

tiredandgrumpy Fri 03-Nov-06 09:24:36

Probably a bit of a fraud as dd is sleeping much better now...fingers crossed, touch wood etc before I jinx it.

Things I found made a real difference:
- waking her for a feed at 7am, no matter what. Was a killer at first, but really helps establish a routine for the day and makes naps much more predictable.
- putting her in her cot while still happy, but shortly before I know she's going to need a sleep. I reckon she can happily stay awake 1.5 hours after she first wakes at 7, so put her in her cot as long after 8-30 as I dare. She's starting to settle herself at 9am this way. Next nap is 12-30 or 1pm ish.

OK, so we still can't get her to settle herself at night as she does get utterly exhausted, but that's my next goal.

Oh, and having been through a phase of her waking up for a 2 hour play during the night and utterly refusing to settle unless bfts when she finally got knackered, I've found a few occasions she's happy to play in her cot once I've topped her tummy up, turned the light to absolute minimum and gone back to sleep myself.

You all probably hate me, but just wanted to say hang in there! Routine appears to be the trick for us.

This is second time round - went through similar things with ds. He finally slept much better at 11mths when he weaned himself off bf. Suddenly there was nothing to wake up for. From day one he slept through. My sister had a similar experience with her 15 mth dd. I didn't chose to stop bf, ds did, and it had always been my sole way of getting him back to sleep at night. Have not had problems since.

What a ramble, but after a good night's sleep I wanted to share my optimism.

BikeBug Fri 03-Nov-06 10:19:22

t&g, all optimism is welcome here .

Well, I can tell you all now that cranial osteopathy hasn't been a miracle cure for us . After our promising afternoon, DS woke up about 3 times in the evening and again at 12.30, 1.45 and 4.45, then up for the day at 7. The only difference I've noticed is that he was happy to play on his tummy earlier in the day (he really doesn't like tummy time).

Like you moljam I keep looking for reasons. He def. has a lot of wind which I think causes him pain, that might wake him. I almost lost my temper with him this morning. In fact I shouted at him . I had to put him in his cot and walk away, I felt so angry because he wouldn't stop screaming unless I picked him up, and then he was absolutely fine. And I am just sooooo tired. Anyway, he's napping now, and I'm going to try the early wake up then back to sleep thing in a few minutes.

Keep going everyone, it must be OK in the end.

And happy moving Difers, hope it is all going well!

Difers Fri 03-Nov-06 10:52:02

I haven't started yet. DP is out on his bike so I'm sitting here with a nice cup of tea in a calm before the storm sort of way,

Welcome to all new ones, especially from afar a field as OZ!

Moljam, Agree with others - My friend Laura went through the "is it cloth" thing and so I did I, No it doesn't make any difference, save yourself the cost of a pack of huggies!

Bikebug, I hope the nap thing works this morning, having an hour to chill in the morning really helps that end of your tether angry at baby feeling!!! It must be VERY hard without much help. Big hugs XXXXXXXXXXXX

Difers Fri 03-Nov-06 10:59:38

OooooHHH..I sent the link for this thread to Elizabeth Pantley and she e-mailed this message back, which I hope she won't mind me sharing with you all:-

Hi Diane,
How wonderful to know that you are all working together. Support is so very very important and since we all are so much alike it is important that we bond together. I'm sending some HUGS to everyone in your group with wishes for lots of sweet dreams!
Hugs,
Elizabeth

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Elizabeth Pantley, Author
http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth

danceswithbaby Fri 03-Nov-06 11:34:28

We had a grand total of 4 hours kip last night, in half hour stretches. This morning DH & DD are drowning in a sea of snot (but not me - hurrah!).

So Moljam, you off to the Bahamas for a week then, when your DH comes back from France all rested and takes over??

Exciting day today Difers! I hope all goes well and your lo settles ok tonight. DD plays HELL if we go to bed somewhere new.

<<Hug>> Bikebug. You're right, it can only get better (can't it??). It's disappointing about the cranial osteopathy - I think we all had our fingers poised over the 'phone, ready to make an appointment.

We all use cloth nappies! Here's another thought - everyone who posts on this thead has a baby who won't sleep. Perhaps we should stop posting...

danceswithbaby Fri 03-Nov-06 11:37:41

Hey, that's really cool! Thanks Difers. A shame she didn't offer to come over and baby-sit

hayles78 Fri 03-Nov-06 13:32:57

Hi MAZ,
I have 5 week old DD and am not so much bothered about a routine but am wanting to be able to put DD down for sleeps (although i suppose it goes hand in hand). Currently she falls asleep when BF or on my chest, in car etc but always wakes on transfer to moses basket. The night is a mix of her on my chest while i sleep on sofa, in the bed next to me, or occasionally in moses basket. i have bought the NCSS book but havent started and am just up to reading about how we sleep. Someone suggested a grobag which i might try although no idea when to put her in it (before or after feeding or to try putting her down in it when awake). Ive also realised that sometimes she needs a little 'prompting' in the day to wake up if shes been asleep too long ie when i go out and about in the car shopping and stuff she will sleep whole time but then i pay for it at night big time. Just thought id mention that i live in Staffs so if anyone in this thread does then be happy to meet up maybe??? Speak soon everyone to let you know how things are going but as Maz said its comforting to read messages and share ideas.

moljam Fri 03-Nov-06 15:53:02

wow elizabeth pantley may have read this thread!hello mrs pantley!
differs sorry to here cranial thing didnt work,i too was ready to phone and make appointment.
thanks for advice on nappies everyone,its the fact hes waking soaked(which he never did till recently)i think i need to change my night nappy,we currently use terry boosted with terrypads and either fleece or wool wrap.ive been recommended minki boosted with hemp,either that or change him in night!dont want to do that!.
dwb,nah i went to london for weekend,im happy with that!
t and g,its great to hear your sleeping,any secrets?

lori21 Fri 03-Nov-06 16:01:49

Well I've just bought the NSSS book and have read it cover to cover. Can't decide whether to do the log at the weekend - my DH has a problem with routine so weekends are always different to the week days - or wait till Monday. DH is desperate for a good nights sleep (I haven't the heart to tell him that this is unlikely to happen yet - ds1 is only just 4 months old). I just hate the crying. DS1 struggles to go to sleep anywhere. He cries before sleeping in his pram, in the car, in the bouncy chair, in his carry cot, in my arms, when rocked.... The only way to get him to sleep without crying is by feeding him but that does not always work in the day. He dozes on the breast but then wakes up.

Well fingers crossed we have some success... although it does sound like it is a long process. Hope DH can cope that long....

iris66 Fri 03-Nov-06 22:48:02

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh am sooooooooooo embarassed that the actual Mrs Pantley may read our thread & witness my sleep depraved vileness [blush
However, <<iris tries to get rational>> I'm sure she'll understand how sleplessness sends you doolally and not view me too harshly [hopeful emoticon]

Bikebug - so sorry the cranial osteopathy didn't yield the immediate results you (and we) hoped. I very nearly posted that many complementary therapies do take at least 3 sessions to show a solid change but didn't want you to lose heart <quickly whispers under breath..I am a holistic therapist you see ...ducks for cover>

moljam - oooh I do feel for you. hope you have lots of support whilst he's away. PS you are mad looking after other children and not napping!!!!

tiredandgrumpy - you have a very good point on the routines front. DS is so much better when I clockwatch his naps (I'm just not very good at it - I'm starting to think that it's a case of "if I really wanted him to sleep better I'd do this properly" )

MAZinOZ - Hi and welcome At some point people will drop off the thread because their LOs are sleeping through.

hayles - the book has some wonderful ideas and is definately worth a read. As for the waking on transfer.. grobag & shushing worked for me (shushing whilst feeding then continue the shushing whilst transferring to cot) but there are other methods in the book that may work better for you.

DS was agog with seeing his first fireworks tonight (we watched through a bedroom window & he stayed up 1/2 hour later than normal) He went down well but naps were all over the show today (he just wouldn't go to sleep!) so we'll see what the night brings. I should add that nights overall are loads better. He generally only wakes 3 times now and is getting a good 11 hours a night (pretty good huh?! ) we're getting there girls!

tiredandgrumpy Sat 04-Nov-06 08:37:50

Trick has been to spot when dd is approaching need for sleep. She hides it well, so I'm helped by clockwatching. Last night we went back to old habits, so not out of the woods yet.

ds used to wake upon being put back in his cot at night until I spotted this was because the moses basket had got cold whilst I was feeding him. I got over it by wrapping him in a blanket whilst I fed, then moving the whole bundle back into the basket when I put him in so he never went onto a cold sheet. Putting him in a grobag to sleep would eliminate this anyway, but have heard of some people using a hot water bottle to take the edge off the cold too (although how on earth do you make one up in the middle of the night whiilst you're dealing with crying baby?).

Off away now for a few days, so any good habits we have will be well and truly gone when we get back. Suppose they say a change is as good as a rest.

moljam Sat 04-Nov-06 08:50:08

lori,personally what worked for me was starting on a sunday night as having 2 older children were more organised in week.also i find it hard putting ds down for nap when theyre about!as for weekends being different to weekdays,i think you may have to(atleast for few weeks)make the weekend routine more like weekday routine so lo doesnt get confused.
bikebug,in light of what iris has said re.at least 3 sessions,are you going to try again?
iris,wow at being a holistic therapist!do you use any of the therapys at home to help your lo sleep?we use massage but would love to find out about anyother alternative therapys that may help!
yesterday was another not good one!no morning nap ,but i decided at 10.30 to go shopping,it got to lunch time so we went to find somewhere to eat,but he fell asleep in sling,so later nap than usual,then no afternoon nap went to bed fine at 7 but up from 11 every hour onwards!then up for day at 5.30.which i wouldnt mind if id had more sleep in night!i was naughty and didnt give him his bath before bed as i was feeling lazy nd dh came back just as we start night routine.maybe i can blame that for last night!ive still got 6 days i think before i fill in log again,im wondering what if anything may have changed!i know patience ,patience,patience but .....

momomama Sat 04-Nov-06 09:16:16

Bikebug, I hope you are not giving yourself a hard time about being cross. One wee blip in months of supportive, calm, lovingness is nothing to get your knickers in a knot about. I'm really sorry that the treatment didn't yield miracles (yet) too.
Mrs Pantley WOW! I was glad I hadn't posted any cheeky messages about the programme in my moments of dementedness at how long this is taking to move toward full nights of sleep. I felt quite touched by her message of support, thanks for forwarding it!
DWB only 4 hours, you poor soul, lots of naps yesterday and more sleep last night I hope. Iris well done I think you've made a breakthrough with only 3 wakings a night. You've given me some inspiration.
I can't belive I'm typing this but I think I need to go back to the log thingie again, I feel I've lost my way. Advice re set times and routines was v. helpful as I'm awful at sticking to the same times every day (and night). DD STILL needs fed back to sleep during the night and although the removal technique has had some success DD doesn't seem able to do without bf for comfort. She's over 1 now so I know she doesn't need the food!!! My head hurts from thinking about this so much

lori21 Sat 04-Nov-06 17:12:45

Thanks for the advice about weekends. I realised that there is little point in starting yet as my poor lo has his 4 month jabs on Monday. Poor thing has to have three 'cos he is on the new routine. He always reacts to the jabs so I'll give him a day or two before trying to get a proper routine. One the big problems we are having at the moment is that he is waking up at 4am and not really going back to sleep, even with breastfeeding.

Here's hoping for a better nights sleep for everyone......

BikeBug Sat 04-Nov-06 20:40:25

hi all, I hope the fireworks aren't disturbing everyone's precious sleep! Big hello to everyone I haven't spoken to yet, and hayles I think grobags are brilliant too. That and warming the cot sheets with a hot water bottle really helped DS and his moses basket. Momomama & Difers, thanks for your kind thoughts. I'm not too mad at myself, but it's scary to get that angry and I wish I hadn't done. Iris, thanks for the 3 sessions comment about the cranial osteopathy - it's what the therapist said too, but 3 sessions = £120 (gulp), so I was unkindly suspicious... But, and I'm trying not to count any unhatched chickens here, last night was pretty good. I mean, he woke up (don't get me wrong!), but not shrieking and pained, just woke up. And this morning he woke up smiling . Usually he starts crying before opening his eyes. And yesterdays naps were brilliant, and this evening he is out like a light for over an hour now (usually it is 35 minutes). So I'm def. going back for my second session. Maybe it's just taking a while to kick in?

shatteredmumsrus Sun 05-Nov-06 07:02:31

Jabberwocky - how did you attempt to stop giving milk to your lo in the middle of the night. I am at the end of my tether. ds is 2yo and wakes at 12.3 and 5.30 every night and the only thing in this world to get him back to sleep if a bottle of milk. I have tried everything else, even ignoring him screaming for 2 hours and going in to re settle- nothing works and it is driving me a partner apart. Life is miserable. He has never slept thru the night. Got to be my fault i know x

iris66 Sun 05-Nov-06 09:11:39

morning all

finally got DS to sleep at 8.30 (fireworks & very awake in the evening due to a late nap at 4.30) then he only woke briefly at 1.15, 6 then up for the day at 7.15 this morning. Yay!!!!!!!!! it's working Though how much of this is the fact that I'm not going to him I don't know. It'll be a good test this week as DH goes away tomorrow for 4 nights.

moljam - DS gets regular reflexology, massage & reiki, and he's a very chilled and happy boy, but these clearly have no impact on keeping him asleep

shatteredmumsrus - It's not your fault!!!!!!!!!!!! (unless you're going in and waking him!!)The NCSS book has a big chapter on toddlers and older children which may help. Have you tried just giving water and/or getting your DP to go to him (apologies if you've already tried this).

Bikebug - I'd definately take DS back for more sessions - sounds like something has definately improved for him!

Lori21 - good luck with the jabs. No advice about the early waking really apart from have you tried pretending to be asleep & keeping everything really dark & quiet?

momomama - I'll be doing the log this week but may yet eat my words with Dh away as I only seem able to settle him without bf during the day (and that usually involves a walk in the pram).

Hope everyone else is doing well sweetkitty hope you are doing ok good luck for long naps today all

moljam Sun 05-Nov-06 09:15:33

lori,hope jabs go ok.poor baby!
this morning i think i may be caving in.i reached for baby whisperer book.i m on the edge of giving up cosleeping as none of us are sleeping,so surely thats not a good thing.i knew when i started(or before i started thanks to you lot!) the ncss that it wasnt quick fix but im losing faith that we'll ever sleep!i feel bad moaning on here as i know none of us are sleeping else we wouldnt be posting!i will keep going with ncss for now as i know its to soon but arrrrgggghhhh!
sorry rant over.for today

shatteredmumsrus Sun 05-Nov-06 11:19:25

thanks iris. i have tried the water thing but he hurls the bottle accross the room as soon as he realises. I may try watering down the milk and see if that has any affect. Partner tried once or twice i think(hmm i know) but no diffeence but he has said that he will try again as of tonight. Not sure whether to do this or the watering down milk thing????

danceswithbaby Sun 05-Nov-06 12:55:35

Well, it's still a house of snot here. Poor DH and DD are leaking from nearly every orifice.(Still not me!) My DD seems to be the only child on the planet that Calpol has no effect upon whatsoever. (Any tips on getting the stuff into her?). I think she may also be teething. No sleep for the forseeable future then!

Sleep logs and any attempt at 'routine' have gone out of the window whilst I lovingly wipe away green slime (am truly Florence Nightingale - wonder how much sleep she got?).

Where are all those lovely anti-bodies I'm supposed to be making and passing over to DD?? Probably gone for a cup of tea and a nap.

Moljam, you sound so down <hug>. Have you read the chapter at the back of the book 'When Nothing Else Works'? I think it was Bikebug who pointed me in that direction when I was feeling like you a couple of weeks ago. If nothing else it helped me re-focus.

Iris, you seem to have spotted the light at the end of the tunnel and be running towards it . I hope it's downhill all the way!

sweetkitty Sun 05-Nov-06 13:41:22

hi everyone sorry I have been missing for a while we changed ISPs then got a virus and I haven't been able to get online for nearly 3 whole weeks!!! Been quickly reading everyones trials and tribulations. It seems we are all getting some success surely but slowly I think.

Well we have been following the actual plan for 10 days now (about to do my first 10 day log) except I am always so tired in the middle of the night I forget to pull her off as I'm usually fast asleep. Would say we probably have 2 wakenings in the night, some nights she has been going 7.30pm to 1-2am which is a good stretch. Other nights she's up an hour after we put her down but I can usually settle her with a cuddle and back pat. Daytime naps are still a bit hit and miss I cannot do the resettle her immediately thing as I have 2.4yo DD1 to contend with. (DD1 who has always been an excellent sleeper I hasten to add).

I am following the routine/lovey/dim room thing though but I don't know if it is working, am thinking of going cold turkey with the nightfeeds (am always thinking of it never actually do it) not withdrawing me just the feeds.

Sorry am rambling will catch up again later.

iris66 Sun 05-Nov-06 13:47:37

moljam - moan away! that's what the thread's for!! The "when nothing else works" tip helped me hugely too (I got DH to read it - after much grumping) I didn't want to stop co-sleeping as I love waking up with DS but it had just become impossible to get any sleep & I hated DH not being there too.
I couldn't not bf DS back to sleep whilst he was in with me (no staying power) and so it seemed better to just try to get him to stay longer in his cot instead as he always starts the night there. DH has been a star (and I so needed the break) but who knows how I'll fare this week doing it myself again! DS still comes in for a snuggle & bf in the morning which is lovely. I'm going to do a log from today.

shatteredmumsrus - I'd be inclined not to give anything. As you said, he's not hungry. If he doesn't want the water he's not thirsty either. Sounds like he's doing what many of ours do ie needs to suck to get to sleep and is used to milk. It's a horrible association to break. Does he have a cuddly toy for bed?

danceswithbaby - don't worry I'll let you all know before I go clip clopping off in my high heels & slap am metaphorically staying in flip flops & yesterdays smudged mascara for the foreseeable

iris66 Sun 05-Nov-06 13:49:57

Yay!!!! welcome back sweetkitty so glad you got the PC sorted.

moljam Sun 05-Nov-06 15:41:40

thanks.im putting travel cot in our room tonight,whether he gets put in there or noti dont know!webottle feed,were watering down the formula but not drastically enough i dont think.maybe i'll try water or cold turkey!scary stuff.ive just had long walk and nice cry so feel lots better!will read the chapter you both suggested in a minute.i feel like such a idiot wanting to give up so quickly.hes teething too so poor babys hurting.weve worked out the nappy situation,hes wearing about 100 pads!slight exageration!so waking dryer.

shatteredmumsrus Sun 05-Nov-06 16:51:19

thanks. He has a soft book that he goes to bed with. He doesnt fall asleep with milk. He does it on his own as good as gold. Thats whats hard to understand???

shatteredmumsrus Sun 05-Nov-06 17:07:02

please advise re CC??? I want to start tonight. HEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!

iris66 Sun 05-Nov-06 20:53:40

shatteredmumsrus - can't advise on CC I'm afraid. There may be another thread that can help.

The No Cry Sleep Solution book is really really good though. Though it isn't a quick fix, I can't recommend it enough for good tips to help your LO get to sleep without the all round trauma of CC

moljam Sun 05-Nov-06 21:09:54

cot is up but were going to have couple of days of getting used to it in room first,so still in with us.i read chapter you adviced,excellant!going to do step 2,get serious!
as for pp about cc,ncss is total opposite so none of us would be any help if thats route you want to take.agree with iris,although ive been whinging,its great book.

bottomlessburp Sun 05-Nov-06 23:05:41

Hi all, baby burp has been poorly, 5 nights of v.high temps (40.5 for 3 nights) and days so all sleeping and routine totally out of window and also DD in bed with us cos was worried wd not know if she was hot/cold.we've been sleeping in the day and playing in the night.she's also gone bakc a step with her weaning and only just having a little bit of apple puree but mostly booby only.have had to use loads of calpol and ibuprofen .anyway also having nightmares with outlaws which culminated in having to take poorly DD to their hols house with them for weekend.she was miserable all weekend and VERY snotty but when we got home this evening she was a new baby burper, really happy and crawling all over the place and had a whole weetabix - hurrah!so we start again with the sleeping!am going to try the hot water bottle warming the cot from tomorrow.
hope all babies sleeping x

momomama Mon 06-Nov-06 09:25:37

Shatteredmum I know how you feel when you are so exhausted and at your wits end but personally I could have made some really bad decisions when I'm feeling sooo shattered. I can't remember if you have NCSS book but the otherts who suggest reading the last bit (when nothing is working) are right, a total break from trying/thinking about sleep is a good way to refocus. maybe CC is the right thing for you but my guess is you'll need to be really strong to carry it through so why don't you try and give yourself a couple of days off before making a decision. I spoke to my HV too and she is going to refer us to a sleep clinic. I think if I have to do anything 'cold turkey' I'll need lots of support, reassurance and help and i would want to be coming from a place of calmness rather than reacting through total frustration. Make sure you get all the help you can. I really feel for you ((hugs)).
Iris you're an inspiration, all your patience has paid off. Good luck this week but I think you sound well on your way and it will be fine.
Moljam I've read all about some of the other techniques suggested. This is bloody hard going. I'm still trying to implement NCSS stuff but I found knowing what a backup could be really helpful and reduced my feelings of panic and hopelessness. I'm releived is doesn't need to be NCSS or CC there are middle ways and the what to do when nothing is working is now the most thumbed part of my NCSS book!
Sweetkitty, I to am thinking cold turkey - aghhhhh! Feel sick thinking about it though, not a good sign.
Poor DWB's, our wee DD still has a cold too and it has made her sleeping even more sporadic. How much snot can one person create? it's phenomenal how it gets everywhere. I've turned into widow twanky washing clothes constantly.
I'd just like to say to you all that I felt crap this morning but hearing how you're all doing has brightened my day

shatteredmumsrus Mon 06-Nov-06 13:04:28

Thanks m- we have seen a sleep counsellor and we tried several things including the NCSS and reducing the amount of milk but decided that i have a very strong willed boy who will not let up at these soft approaches. So CC is the only other option to try. I have been giving him the milk he wants in the night for the last three weeks and i was getting less sleep than i did last night with starting the CC. He was awake for 1 hr and 10 mins compared to 30 mins three times a night!!!So hopefully CC is the way for me???

iris66 Mon 06-Nov-06 14:15:35

WARNING POSITIVE PROGRESS ALERT !!!
< whispers...DS slept 8.30 - 6 last night in his cot. Small 30 sec grizzle at 11 and again at 1 but I didn't even shush him or get out of bed once! >
DH was back in our bed last night (yay!!)as he had to leave the house at 3 but even his fairy elephant stomping around didn't wake him!!!!! Brought him in for a snuggly bf & we dozed until 7.15 !!!!!!! (and he's such a happy chappie today too)

I think what worked for us was going cold turkey on the night bf & DH going to him with just water. He's also dropped his morning nap. I struggled to get him to sleep & he would always wake up grumpy so I've encouraged him to wait until after lunch as I know he'll sleep longer then (he's asleep now and has already had 1 3/4 hrs) and have 1/2 hour at around 4.30. I'm still bf 2 or 3 times during the day.

Ooooh I hope I'm the first to leave the thread! - if he keeps this up I'll be clippety clopping off into the sunset with a big

moljam - though DS doesn't sleep in his cot during the day still, I plonk him in to play quite regularly when I'm doing stuff upstairs & he doesn't immediately cry in there anymore. May work for you?

bottomlessburp - poor DD. That must have been an awful weekend for you all! So pleased that she's full of beans again

momomama - it's hideous when you get so down isn't it. I think the best bit about NCSS is that it "allows you" to take a break and the method recognises that we're only human. I'm really glad you're finding the positive stuff inspiring. I must admit that the "one step forward" makes me instantly forget the two or three steps back - I must be turning into an optimist in my old age

shatteredmumsrus - Your last sentence sounds as if you are asking for someone to validate your decision and say "yes, go for CC". I don't think that's likely on this thread. Trust your instincts as only you & your DP know the best way for your DS. Good luck with whichever method you choose (though I still hope it's NCSS) .

shatteredmumsrus Mon 06-Nov-06 15:40:50

well i have tried everything else so it has to be. You have to be cruel to be kind and keep reminding yourself that it is for their own good at the end of the day. He is a happy boy today and im a happy mommy!

moljam Mon 06-Nov-06 15:51:22

iris,wow!what a night!come and help me in cornwall!congratulations!even if your lo is sleeping dont leave thread we need you so we can be reminded that it can be done!
we had bad night again!suprise!bed at 7,up at 10,12 and every half hour from 3 am till 5.30 when we got up!but has had hour nap this morning and has been asleep almost an hour now!lastnight i only gave water but he didnt mind still drunk 8 oz!not what i wanted but we'll see,maybe he'll realise!

moljam Mon 06-Nov-06 15:52:43

oh and fogot to say-firstly all those poorly babies hope youre well soon!i dont do snot!

sweetkitty Mon 06-Nov-06 15:53:47

yes Iris I hope the good nights continue for you (fingers and everything crossed) so you have had success with the no boob in the night technique, this is the way I'm thinking of going, going to be very hard though, I will stop offering her the boob to get to sleep but still be there for her with loads of cuddles. I think I will also put the fourth side of her cot up as well in some ways I don't feel ready for her to sleep alone but in others I know it has to be done as none of us is getting a particularly good nights sleep.

shattered mum - I won't condone you for trying CC I think only you can decide whats right for you and your baby, each one is so unique theres not one technique that fits all, good luck with whatever you decide and keep us informed of your progress.

momomama - I too am dreading the cold turkey approach but I reason that I will still be there I just won't be giving her the boob to get her off to sleep. I had a rare night out 2 weeks ago and DP had her she woke at 1am and cried solidly until I came home at 2.10am (problems getting a cab) it's so difficult though to see her crying for over and hour knowing that 5 minutes of boob and she'll be sleeping so soundly.

I hope everyone else is doing OK with the sleep deprivation too. I'm supposed to be doing a 10 day log tonight but I forget in the wee small hours

moljam Mon 06-Nov-06 15:56:35

sweetkitty,let us know outcome of log,how it compares to your last one as ive only done 1 so far.

lori21 Mon 06-Nov-06 16:58:36

so good to read about some positive progress. jabs went fine and he hasn't reacted like before.

my lo is a nightmare napper. how do people get their lo to fall asleep for a nap. i feel such a failure as it in't me who gets my lo off to sleep in the day but the hoover or car.

shatteredmumsrus Mon 06-Nov-06 19:00:09

ive heard of lots of weird and wonderful ways people get their little ones to sleep so done punish yourself, you are not the only one driving around aimlessly! With my first son he didnt have a routine either, he just slept when and where, usually in the car.He always fell asleep with a boob or a bottle too. So with my second i was determined to change things. I bought him a soft book and associated it with bed, always had it for sleep times. Taught him how to fall asleep but i cant remember exactly how to be honest but it was the best thing i ever did. Now he just doesnt stay asleep. Whatever works for you but dont beat yourself up about it though your doing great!

bottomlessburp Mon 06-Nov-06 19:27:19

iris - great news, fabtastic, your progress is buoying me up .we've been dancing to lloyd cole and the commotions last 45 mins, just having a nappy break, dd smiling and i am so cheery.Dh wont recognise cheery wife when he gets home!

someone told me wayne rooney can only get to sleep with the hoover on!!

fluffyanimal Mon 06-Nov-06 19:38:08

Hello everyone! Iris, great to hear you are getting somewhere. Welcome new folk, and Lori, don't worry, I can only get my DS to sleep with him sucking my finger. So Fluffybaby continues to have a totally random sleep pattern. A couple of nights of sleeping through, a couple of nights of waking 3 times. Wish I could predict it. I'm rather crap at doing the logs, must keep up with that. Not much else new to report. I know I must try to knock the finger-sucking on the head and create better sleep associations, but it's very hard when there's a pair of little hands wafting around searching for my hand and dragging it up to his mouth. Tugs at my heart strings it does.

MAZinOZ Tue 07-Nov-06 00:54:19

Hi all, just wondering how all the mums with very young bubs are faring. My 5 weeks DD seems to be turning her days and nights around, for the better! Hint for you all, have found that if I get her to sleep in the afternoon, she sleeps through the evening, wakes for a feed and goes back to bed with little fuss and so on throughout the night. She had been awake in the afternoon and grumpy, then we had an almighty fight on our hands to get her to sleep. It seems a good solid sleep breeds more sleep.That's where we are at the moment, a welcome releif from being awake with a shouting baby all night. Feeling almost half human today. Wishing you all the best out there!

moljam Tue 07-Nov-06 09:34:05

lori,glad jabs went ok.
bottomlessburp-sounds like youre having a fab time!
we had a fantastic night,ssshhh dont tell anyone!i put ds to bed at 7 and i went to bed at 9.he woke at 1 had a sip of water and we said our 'magic' words as dd and ds1 calls it(!) and rolled over again,then same at 3.woke at 5.30 had milk and went down to have breakfast at 6!this morning went for nap at 9am still there!lastnight i think may have been helped by fact i used a really dim nightlight i forgot i had,it was enough to see outline of us but nothing else.im scared of dark and found it quite calming!also before he went to bed he had calpol,bonjela and teething powder(i checked with doc that he could have all!)because hes got loads of teeth coming at once!or maybe just luck!