DD never tired at night. Any sleep gurus tell me what I'm doing wrong?

[PerchanceToDream]

Hi all,

Following on from last night's rambling post about DD's sleep problems here I'm left wondering tonight why 22mo DD never seems tired at bed time.

The only time she's ever really tired is if we've been out really late, like 10/11pm, say if we're coming home from travelling or something.

She gives me very good cues in the day as to when she's tired and wants to go for her nap. She makes a little bed for herself in the living room and tells me her toys are tired.

But at night she's as bright as anything and it invariably takes us 45 mins to a frigging hour to get her down AFTER lights out.

Am I feeding her too late? We have dinner at 6, bath at 6.45/7 and then lights out by 7.30. Is she still too energised?

[jkklpu]

How much does she sleep in the day? It sounds as though it's to much or too late on. Can you wake her up after 45 mins instead of letting her sleep as long as she wants? You could then bring bedtime forward a little if she's still tired.

[cafebistro]

At what time does she have her day time nap? and for how long?

[PerchanceToDream]

Ha! jkklpu that's the polar opposite advice we've had from seeing a sleep specialist (not that she's right at all!) But her theory goes that the more sleep DD gets in the day the more she'll sleep at night. She'll have an hour roughly midday to 1pm but I've been advised to try to get her to sleep longer by stirring her at 55 minutes and trying to get her to sleep another half an hour. Trouble is, I just wake her up if I do that. She's such a light sleeper that it doesn't work anyway.

[ChippingInLovesChristmasLights]

I would go for either a single sleep cycle (40 mins) or a power nap (15 mins) - at 22 months she does not need to be encouraged to sleep more in the day. What are this 'sleep specialists' qualifications??

[cafebistro]

At this age my DD was growing out of her day time nap - maybe that's the problem?

[PerchanceToDream]

She's a HV who runs a local sleep clinic and was recommended to us by a friend. I have another friend who says his 2yo definitely sleeps better at night the more sleep he 'banks' in the day. I know it doesn't sound logical...

TBH I just don't know what to believe anymore. It's doing my head in.

[UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea]

Is she getting enough fresh air and exercise? Mine needed 1-2 hours minumum outside to get properly tired for bedtime. Swimming always guaranteed a good night's sleep in my house.

[PerchanceToDream]

This is what I thought cafe but I certainly welcomed the advice about trying to make her sleep more. I still think she needs a nap. But then again she might just be tired because we've all had an horrendous night beforehand, and so the vicious cycle continues...

[PerchanceToDream]

It's hard with this weather Unexpected but yes she usually does and I think Christmas has put a spanner in the works with all the activities shutting down - can't wait to get back to it next week.

[DewDr0p]

I'd try bringing her dinner forward if that's feasible and think about what she's eating too - when ds3 was small ANY sugar at teatime left him wired, even a yoghurt. Ditto the fresh air thing too.

What happens when you put her down? We ended up having to ignore ds once he was in bed, if he could even sense I was outside the door he simply wouldn't lie down and go to sleep.

[PerchanceToDream]

We do the rapid return/Supernannying thing. There isn't a gate on her room as it wouldn't work with the way our rooms are set out - she's also in a toddler bed so she just gets out and tries to find me or DP (we're just in the adjacent bedroom). It's backbreaking!

Good point re sugar. I'll definitely give that some attention.

[ChippingInLovesChristmasLights]

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in an HV that runs a sleep clinic.

That aside.

It could go either way - more sleep in the day, sleeping better at night or cutting down on naps, sleeping better at night. Your DD is her own person so it's unique to her. Whatever you do, pick something to try and do it for at least 3 weeks. Chopping and changing your 'method' is just going to screw things up more.

I'd go for rapid silent return too once she's in bed. Generally massively, massivey horrible the first night, bloody horrible for a couple of night, successful 'staying there' after that.

[omama]

Id agree rapid return sounds a good idea. What time does she get up in the morning? Her nap doesnt sound overly long at just 1hr so i cant imagine the bedtime resistance is due to her getting too much daytime sleep, unless she doesnt get up until say post 8am. We had bt trouble at similar age & tried cutting down the nap but it didnt help bedtime as he just got overtired. I am now a firm believer in sleep begets sleep & find the better my ds naps the better he sleeps at night. What we did find worked at that age was to move his nap and bedtime a touch later so he napped at 1pm for 2hrs & bed at 8pm & the extra time awake before his nap seemed to tire him out more & he stopped fighting bedtime.hth.x

[3ForMe]

All children are different.
My eldest slept for two hours in the day and twelve hours at night til he was nearly 3. If he didn't have enough sleep in the day he would sleep terribly at night.

Dc2 will maybe have an hour in the day and sleep for ten hours at night. He's not even 18 months yet!

I'd say more fresh air should help. Little walks to the shops, play ball in the garden, get to the park for an hour, go feed the ducks etc

Mine gave always slept better if they've been out in the fresh air.

And if you're going to keep the afternoon nap -which I would- I would do the same sleep routine in the afternoon and evening. So she knows what's coming and knows what to expect. I think it's the routine which makes a difference.

I only have to out ds2 in his gro bag and his eyes start rolling, and he could be running round playing five mins previously.

[PerchanceToDream]

This is the really annoying thing - before the official sleep training, DD went down OK and she napped like an angel - 1pm to 2pm, going straight down without a fuss. She would generally do 8pm-8am but of course that was with multiple wake-ups and her coming into our bed, tossing and turning all night, hence the need for us to seek help in the first place.

Now the sleep training has screwed up the naps too and we've ended up shifting her whole day forward, 7.30 - 6.30/7ish. She's absolutely not allowed in our bed, even in the morning. Once she's up, she's up. Lights on. (which I'm a bit upset about because she's such a lively thing it's not as if I get the cuddles in the day and I miss our morning cuddles - that really goes against my instinct, TBH). Anyway, now the whole thing's gone tits up where before it was only her coming into our bed that we had the issue with. Grrrrr! When she was little I couldn't do controlled crying, it just wasn't me, but now I think I'm paying for being so bloody soft with her.

To add another spanner in the works, though, we think she's teething again. She still has her last four molars at the back to come so who knows. It could just be that. There are just too many variables for us to pin anything down and sort it out. Seriously stressed! Oh, and the wait and return thing might work for other toddlers but not for DD - we've been doing it for about 5 weeks (admittedly with XMas in between) but it can still take us an hour to get her down - bedtime AND nap time.

[3ForMe]

Maybe a gro clock would work well for her regarding her getting up?

I'd ditch the sleep training, you don't seem to be getting anything from it.

Decide on a routine that would work for you and your dd. decide what you will and won't accept (joining you in bed etc), get a baby gate on her bedroom, stick to your guns and implement the routine.

I know it's easy for me to say and harder to do. But I've done it and in the most passive parent ever!

After a few nights you'll be wondering why you didn't do it sooner.