rubbing eyes, refusing bed time bottle, smacking lips...buggered if I know

[megandmogwai]

Is she trying to tell me something?

My 16 week old baby goes to bed at 7pm, by which point, she's usually been rubbing her eyes for about an hour (at least). She used to go down very happily following a feed at about 6pm, but the last few days she has been refusing this feed, or only having a couple of ounces. She will then scream the house down when we put her to bed, but still won't take a bottle. Tonight she was smacking her lips a lot.

She will cry for up to an hour, regardless of what strategy we try to calm her. She then wakes up for a feed about 9-9.30pm. I don't geddit?! She's had a bit of baby rice every day for about a week now (which she appears to love). Not constipated etc. Would someone look at this routine and tell me something glaringly obvious that I'm missing?

6.55 am - awake..like an alarm clock
7.30 am - bottle (initiated by me - about 6oz)
9.15 am - down for a nap - about 45 mins
10.30am - teaspoon of baby rice (yum )
11.00 am - bottle (cries for it - about 8oz)

afternoons vary - rarely at home

2.30 pm - bottle (cries for it - about 8oz)
5.30 pm - bathtime (loves it but grumpy after)
6.00 pm - bottle (cries for it but fusses on it)
Starts off in a good mood then gets whingy here
7.00 pm - almighty battle - cries ++++
9.00 pm - wakes for bottle - 7oz
11.30pm - dreamfeed (about 8oz)

She doesn't nap much in the day, except for trips out, but she wakes when the pushchair stops moving (often with red eyes). She screams when I put her in the cot for naps at any time of day. She's a very alert baby, always has been, rolls over a bit, transfers things from hand to hand and has excellent head control. She has already found her feet and put them into her mouth.

Overtired? Wants more food? Wants baby rice before bed? Buggered if I know!

All suggestions gratefully received!

[dinny]

overtired maybe? try a walk in buggy from about 4pm for a bit so she has a nap? so hard to read, isn't it? still can't read ds and he's 14 months!

[megandmogwai]

forgot to add she's a big baby (95th centile height and weight) - 3-6 month clothes too short in the leg almost.

My husband used to walk her in the pram about 5-6pm but it's harder now the weather is dreary. He's often later home than that (sometimes 6.30pm) and I just can;t find the time or energy to walk for an hour every evening

[dinny]

is her only nap in the morning? if so, I'd say she's definitely overtired by bedtime - much harder to settle. dd and ds would be too tired to feed at 6pm if hadn't been asleep until 5pm (even if just 30 mins, iyswim)

[misdee]

she needs more naps i think.

[megandmogwai]

She has the nap in the morning, a pretty good routine I established because I knew the childminder puts the children down at about 9.30am (she'll be going there in January), but I am out with her almost every afternoon. She falls asleep in the car or pram but it doesn't last beyond the end of the journey or the walk. If there's a sudden noise, she wakes up and stays awake.

Situation not helped when husband working nights - as she screams, I try to get out of the house with her, so she gets out of the nap routine.

On the odd occasion we are at home, she will have a short nap every third hour, but screams every time I put her down (for about 5 mins). I read on mumsnet that babies are a bit cranky if they are awake more than two hours at a time. This is certainly true, but I'm not sure how to read the signs about putting her down. Eye rubbing can happen when she's been awake for 30 mins.

BLoomin confused

[dinny]

Megandmogawai - try her morning nap and then out her down about midday and see how she goes. this really suited dd (she'd sleep for 3 hours from midday) and kind of suits ds sometimes (though he rarely sleeps for more than 45 mins and often needs a quick sleep late pm so not too cranky for bedtime bath/feed etc) btw, if (when mine were younger) they were twitchy and overtired would put them in sling an poddle about for a walk for 20 mins. even if they don't sleep is calm time for them. and both mine are big bruisers just under 98th...

[megandmogwai]

I'll try that tomorrow (though husband won't be too chuffed, he's on nights, so if she screams it's a problem).

I wonder whether, because she's so alert, two hours is actually too long for her? She does a lot while she's awake; typically some time in a bouncy chair, on a mat, on a baby gym, looking at some toys, and I sing and talk to her. Perhaps she's knackered after all that?

[dinny]

I really think it sounds like she is overtired/overstimulated maybe? don't do anything stimulating late pm. oh, and both mine (dd is 3 and ds is 1) are SO knackered after a bath it's basically in pyjamas and into bed straight away really.

I couldn't work out why dd cried so much until she was 6 months old, when I finally clicked she really needed more sleep in day! if you put her down for a nap, try letting her grumble for 10 mins before you go to her - dd used to chunter loads when falling asleep in day (not cry though)

[hunkerpumpkin]

Sounds like she might be a bit overstimulated, M&M - it'll take her a while to calm down from all that activity. Def agree she sounds tired though. Perhaps don't change her activity as often? DS was like this - very alert, very averse to naps when he was little. I used to leave him to play in his bouncer or under a baby gym at this age - think it's good for them to get used to playing by themselves for a bit.

[megandmogwai]

she's always been very good at amusing herself. I change her activity when she gets bored, but in general, she's playing alone. We used the baby whisperer routine but always skipped the "activity" bit before she went to bed, ie, kept things very low-key. It's always worked very well for us, just the last week or so it's not so effective.

We've also allowed her o cry rather than go to her straight away - am a firm believer in that!

We are going to try the pick-up/put-down thing, see how that goes.

[megandmogwai]

ok, it's definitely about daytime naps

Took her to the seaside today, she slept in her pram. Went down at 7pm as usual, wide awake and happily chatting in her cot

So now we just have to sort the daytimes out!

[startingtobehalloweenylover]

in the afternoon will she fall asleep having her bottle? the 2.30 one? if she gets sleepy while having it you could put her down straight afterwards.
I sometimes didn't bother winding ds as it made him wake up again but just put him straight down after his feed.

having said that he also went through a phase of refusing a bottle which he obviously wanted. I found that sometimes a change of scenery helped... he wasn't interested if too much was going on (if we were int he front room with dp banging around etc) and would take the bottle more happily in his room with the lights turned down
otherwise i used to give him his dummy to calm him down and then try the bottle about 10-15 mins later and he'd take it

[dinny]

exellent, Megandmogwai - try putting her down for morning short nap and then about midday. if she gets upset just go back, cuddle her and put her back in cot. and repeat till she zonks.

[megandmogwai]

Forgot to say I tried the midday thing today...which was why we ended up at the seaside (after I held her up in the bedroom and said to my husband "I don't know what to DO with her!!!").

We tried to do put down/pick up but she just got worse and worse. In the end she was clenching her fists to her head, poor mite. When I was getting her ready to go out, I noticed she had managed to either scratch her eye or cause one of those little bleeds on the white of her eye

THATS how much she dislikes napping!

I moved her 6pm bottle to 6.30 tonight, so she was fully of milky bliss when she settled herself. The baby whisperer routine was so useful, but the sleep always comes long after the food. I'm beginnning to think that routine isn't useful for us anymore and will try to put her down after a bottle tomorrow

Thanks for your advice ladies!

[Judessis]

Hi there, I know she's only 16 weeks, but maybe try more food at about 5 as well and some of her bottle, then bath, then a small bottle then bed. My ds (now 14 months) was (actually still is ) knackered after his bath and just wants to settle with his bottle. I still give most of the milk before his bath if he is really ratty - then just a coupld of oz afterwards then bed. Note to your dh - buy some ear plugs!!

[megandmogwai]

just to update, I took on board some of this advice and things are getting better.

I've started putting her down for a nap about 11.45am. She initially cried for longer than she slept but that's going the other way now.
Tried pick up/put down.......can't do that

So thanks for your replies

[Em32]

Both my children struggled with napping in the day to start with and dd will only sleep in her swing/pushchair/car seat at the moment (she's 8 weeks) If I try and put her in the cot she just screams and screams even though I've seen her yawning away previously so I know the feeling. I think she may need more structured naps as she may be very tired by the evening if she's only napping a little. I had to do this with ds and it worked although I really can't remember how I did it -but I did get him to sleep in his cot probably by leaving him to cry for a bit but it worked in the end.