Why is there a separate section for special needs in Education?

(166 Posts)
depankrispaneven Wed 01-Jan-14 16:07:11

Wouldn't it just be simpler to include something referring people to the more active SN section further down the page? And indeed to put that section immediately underneath the Education section?

CatherineMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 01-Jan-14 22:54:13

Hi OP, topics headers usually come about from requests from the boards. We take your point though, does anyone else concur?

No. I think it's right Education has a SN topic; that one seems the busiest one. It seems to attract dyslexia and learning difficulties threads; which to me seems the proper place.

Special needs education one seems slower but maybe that's because it (I think) attracts more complex issues surrounding children with educational and other special needs.

Personally I can see a time when I will need both for my 2 DC with SN. DD2 is in mainstream school with some SN 'complications' (once everything has been diagnosed and agreed with) but DS may be in a SN school or in mainstream but with bigger SN issues (PEG tube, Neuro damage and communication issues). If they clump the two together I might be put off posting about DD2.

nennypops Fri 03-Jan-14 20:51:20

I don't think you can have been looking at the main SN thread, Clutching, it's way busier than the one in Education. That's why there's a permanent post in the Education one referring to the SN section for more traffic, and it covers the entire range of SN from mild difficulties to really complex issues.

VworpVworp Fri 03-Jan-14 21:08:26

I think it's necessary- SN would be for parents of children with difficulties of all types, and medical needs etc, SEN is different, and children that are NT can have educational difficulties.

VworpVworp Fri 03-Jan-14 21:09:19

Conversely, some children with SN will never have any educational difficulties.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 03-Jan-14 21:11:43

I agree with VworpVworp.

PolterTurkey Fri 03-Jan-14 21:40:45

Most children with disabilities and additional (special) needs have SENs too. The SEN topic under the Education heading really doesn't get the traffic that SN Children attracts.

RudolphLovesoftplay Fri 03-Jan-14 21:50:43

Hi, can anyone help? On I-phone app and want to go back to non-Christmas nn. However, I can't match what I know is the old user name with my usual reem of passwords. There isn't an option I can see for "forgotten password", what do I do?

RudolphLovesoftplay Fri 03-Jan-14 21:51:29

Sorry, meant to start a new thread...ignore grin

zzzzz Fri 03-Jan-14 21:52:00

Well to blunt I think it's because people don't want to consider that a SEN is a SN. They like to think that an educational disability is not the same as any other disability. It keeps "the disabled" nice and seperate from "the normal". If I had the energy I would find it utterly offensive, but I have bigger fish to fry.

Ineedmorepatience Fri 03-Jan-14 22:15:33

Right at this moment zzzzz I need a like button!

JaquelineHyde Fri 03-Jan-14 22:22:00

I think Vworp vworp is spot on actually.

PolterTurkey Fri 03-Jan-14 22:23:35

Well said zzzzz

I've said it elsewhere but SENs are SNs

I do wonder sometimes what people think the term 'special needs' actually means.

zzzzz Fri 03-Jan-14 22:40:25

VworpVworp Fri 03-Jan-14 21:08:26
"I think it's necessary- SN would be for parents of children with difficulties of all types, and medical needs etc, SEN is different, and children that are NT can have educational difficulties."

I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. [boggle]

VworpVworp Sat 04-Jan-14 00:23:28

zzzzzz- I have a child with SN, she has no SEN whatsoever- top of her year in fact. My DH (no SN) has SEN- he has dyslexia and couldn't read until he was 9yo. That is the distinction I'm trying to make. I may have it all wrong, of course! grin

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 00:40:45

I think we probably just think about the term SN differently.

For example I can't see how you can have SEN without having SN. So I would say someone with dyslexia did have SN (though I prefer plain old disabled).

Ie SEN is a subset of SN

VworpVworp Sat 04-Jan-14 00:48:29

Well some people consider epilepsy a disability, but my friend with epilepsy does not, I suppose everyone has their own view on it.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 00:52:45

Lots of children with SEN are top of their years. SEN doesn't mean not academic any more than dyslexia does.

PolterTurkey Sat 04-Jan-14 09:11:04

Vworp I wonder if you could define SEN as you see it?

For me, SEN includes not just learning and intellectual disabilities/difficulties but also anything that impacts on a child's ability to learn. So, my ds has a primary dx of an ASD, significant difficulties with many aspects of school, but academically performing top of class. He still has SENs.

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 11:31:43

Why doesn't she consider epilepsy a disability?

All disability means is that you don't function on an even playing field without accomodation. Would your friend cope without medication?

"I'm sure everyone has their own view on it" seems to imply that people are making a choice. I would suggest that people are just effected by their disability to a greater or lesser degree.

I am bothered by the underlying idea that people should "pass as normal" if at all possible. While we maintain this attitude there can be no true inclusion for our children with disabilities.

colditz Sat 04-Jan-14 11:35:20

Zzzzzzzzz my son has asthma but he doesn't have special needs. It's just asthma. It's treatable, as is epilepsy in most cases. You can't just decide someone has special needs, and declare that they are wrong to think otherwise.

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 11:40:25

colditz your son has a condition that is controlled by medication. How is that different to a child using any other support to overcome their disability?

Can I also ask why having SN would be so negetive?

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 11:41:04

Sorry "negative".

StripyPenguin Sat 04-Jan-14 11:46:22

Vworp some would say that being top of the year did indicate SEN - it's an educational need and if somebody is very intelligent then they have additional educational needs. SEN isn't just at the lower end of the scale, though many perceive it to be that way.

colditz Sat 04-Jan-14 11:47:33

It's not negative. My older son does have special needs. My younger son does not.

Everyone, everyone on the face of this planet, has slightly different need than everyone else. Ds2 does not have special needs because he self administers his medication when he needs it and it impacts on nobody. It stopped being a special need when he was about four.nSame with me. I don't have special needs because I don't need ANYONE ELSE to do something for me.

Ds1 needs someone else to intervene and support him with some aspects of his life that children his age are expected to be able to cope with alone. That is a special need.

I would say that SEN is different to SN in education, but that SEN could still be classed as SN in education, if you wanted one topic (I don't think that SNinE could come under SEN)

SNinE could include, to use the examples above, how a school has to provide accommodation for asthma or epilepsy, but they wouldnt imo come under SEN.

Personally for SNinE I would call it "Disability and health requirements in education" though, i think?

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 11:56:32

The fact you are dependent on a drug/equipment rather than a person is not the point. SN is not about the impact you have on others it is about what is required to even the playing field.

CatherineMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 04-Jan-14 11:56:41

Thanks for the comments and please keep them coming.

colditz Sat 04-Jan-14 12:00:47

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but my opinion is different. I disagree with you.

nennypops Sat 04-Jan-14 12:03:02

I think most people would understand special needs in children to be special educational needs. Do parents of children with disabilities but no learning difficulties normally describe them as having special needs? I can't say I've come across it.

But to bring this back to the initial issue, the fact is that most people wanting to discuss SEN ultimately migrate to the special needs group, and on any interpretation there is a BIG degree of overlap; whereas people posting in the thread under education often don't get the responses they need because it is relatively much more inactive. It does seem to me more logical to keep them all in one group, and to show it on the page near to the Education stuff.

I see where you are both coming from zzz and colditz, but I guess that if you counted everyone that had any medical need whatsoever as "special needs", it would water down the impact that disability has the people at the difficult end of the scale?

For instance, using an adult example, my mum has high blood pressure, my dad has hypothyroidism, I have inflammatory arthritis and my sister has PTSD. We are all medicated daily, but I am the only one that is "disabled", and that is measured on a purely physical level, because my medication does not solve the problem, just allegedly help it

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 12:10:16

Well I think that to be a "disability" the impact on your life has to be "substantial". (I think on going too or everyone with a broken leg would be disabled rather than "injured")

Beccadugs Sat 04-Jan-14 12:10:23

Perhaps it is helpful to have a seperate place to post about educational things for SN families.

I work with lots of families who's SN/SEN children find getting the right school place/help in school very very difficult. Perhaps it is useful to have a specific place where "education" people who can help are more likely to see the topics.

I could be wrong though!

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 12:16:03

My ds has spld and a few other mildish health issues. Most of the help i need i get from the secondary boards. I get the impression the SN boards are cliquey and i dont like the bullying of those who dont follow the party line

StripyPenguin Sat 04-Jan-14 12:20:26

*Beyond said: SNinE could include, to use the examples above, how a school has to provide accommodation for asthma or epilepsy, but they wouldnt imo come under SEN."

I would agree with that, though I'd prefer it to be called 'additional needs' rather than special needs. All children are special and so are all their needs, just some have additional ones. That goes way beyond what an area on MN is called though!

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 12:22:07

Meant to saybuse the allergies boards for allergies , and his epilepsy problem is incredibly rare and i havent com e across anyone on these boards who has it

hazeyjane Sat 04-Jan-14 12:25:46

I get the impression the SN boards are cliquey and i dont like the bullying of those who dont follow the party line

Bruffin, slightly off topic but I am getting tired of people accusing the posters on the sn boards as being cliquey and bullies, I would hate people to be put off because they see one of these posts and believe it to be true - if you believe you are being bullied, then you should take it up with mnhq.

KatyMac Sat 04-Jan-14 12:41:40

I get tied up in knots about this so if I offend please forgive me

I like "additional needs"; as a practitioner I consider additional needs this could be:
A substantial physical difficulty
A learning difficulty
A sensory difficulty
A food allergy

but it could also be:
Parents going through a divorce (or indeed a marriage)
Moving house
A broken leg
A bereavement
Potty training
Starting school/Nursery

as they are all times when I alter my practise (practice?) in order to make life a little easier (more accessible?) for the child

For me it's about treating the child as an individual and knowing the family; I feel (perhaps wrongly) that in school (for example) the groups of children are larger and the closeness that I can develop in my setting wouldn't be possibly (eg 1 teacher 30 children) plus I have a wide age range so I can easily alter my provision for that child with the equipment & skills I already have.

When DD was 'disabled' (visually impaired with a psychological issue) I was shocked at the wide range of accommodation that could/couldn't be made in school & the attitudes of the teachers to her problem.

She now has asthma which she doesn't consider a disability, but I do - because when she gets a 'cold' it can mean 3-10 days off school depending on the severity and how it hits. The asthma isn't her disability it's how her body reacts to minor viruses due to the asthma (if that makes sense?)

Again no intent to impose my views - just to explain how I feel

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 12:45:48

bruffin I'm really sorry that you find the SN board cliquey shock. I post there a lot but am following my own line for my children. I have found people to be very tolerant of that, so can't identify with your characterisation. What is it that makes you feel that way? I've heard it said before and it would probably help everyone if we addressed it rather than just kept plodding on. (As a total aside my youngest has epilepsy in very unique way. [wave] )

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 12:57:02

I have taken it up with MN Hazeyjane. It wasnt me that was being bulied but other carers have been and i reported it because Mn was condoning it. They did seem to understand the points i made. But i do get the impression they listen to those who shout and swear the loudest.
I do think many posters are put off by what goes on MN

JadedAngel Sat 04-Jan-14 12:58:25

I too prefer 'additional needs' as a term. It seems a broader catch-all for the many different scenarios families face.

Back to the original point about the SN sub-section of education. My view is that it's worth having, for parents who have realised, or suspect, their child needs additional help in the classroom but are perhaps not ready to leap into the SN section. It will probably be a quiet board, and should definitely include a signpost to the main SN talk section, but I do see the value in keeping it.

FWIW I don't think the SN boards are cliquey at all, but I can see how one might be daunted by leaping into posting there, in the early days of thinking their child is having difficulties with their learning.

JadedAngel Sat 04-Jan-14 13:00:23

oh and an aside, bruffin, my DS also has an incredibly rare form of epilepsy (among other things). He stopped breathing during an EEG and the report simply says we can see an event occurred but we have no idea what it is shock

I agree with SNinE being renamed "Additional needs in education" and with KatyMacs list, and then keeping SEN separate, but linked to in ANinE smile

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 13:48:52

Perhaps what we need is a sort of anti-room to the SN boards for people who have questions that are "borderline" and to dabble in IYKWIM.
For example you won't find a better place for ideas on how to make a hospital stay easier, or get medicine into the intransigent.

PolterTurkey Sat 04-Jan-14 13:56:30

This is all getting ridiculously complicated. The topic headings need to be clear, there needs to be less of them and they need to make sense to new posters and especially, in my view, to the often desperate parents who have concerns about their child's development or their child's needs not being met, whether educationally or otherwise. It makes sense to concentrate the support, knowledge and expertise in as few topics as possible.

Educational provision for disabilities, SNs, ANs, SENs, whatever heading you prefer, can often not be separated from the broader challenges of parenting a child with additional needs (etc)

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 14:58:16

Bruffin, the SN board doesn't have a party or a party line. All views, perspectives are challenged regularly which is what most people think is it's main value.

The only vague 'party line' I can think of is that it is assumed that each poster is seeking the most effective strategies for their child, their family and their relationship with their child's school or LA, which is WHY whatever your stance you will face alternative perspectives.

moosemama Sat 04-Jan-14 15:15:31

Well, I started out venturing into SNinE when I first had concerns about my eldest ds. Yes, it was quiet, but I was listened to, advised and ultimately directed to the SNChildren board - which is where I suddenly found immeasurable support and understanding.

The folks on the SN boards have helped me navigate both the assesment and educational sides of identifying what the issue was with ds and from there helped carry me through making sure he is properly supported.

He is another one who doesn't struggle academically, in fact he is extremely capable academically, but without additional support he simply wouldn't be able to access the curriculum and achieve what he is capable of.

Conversely, a year or so ago I discovered ds2 had a disability that we had been unaware of, but increasingly causes him lot of pain and distress. Again, the folks on the SN boards helped me work out what the problem was and seek out the right referrals for a formal dx to be made.

Ds2 is not on the SEN register at school, but, he does have a care plan and the school keeps some of his medication to administer when necessary. He has also had medical professionals visit the school to advise staff on things like appropriate seating and equipment. Without that equipment (albeit fairly minor in the big scheme of things) and his needs being taken into account on a daily basis he would struggle to achieve - in fact his grades rapidly improved once his disability was identified and properly supported. Yet for some reason he is not considered to have SEN or SN according to school records, but is dealt with under a different heading, so-to-speak. confused

So I have both a child who has a neurological condition that requires a lot of support in order for him to meet his potential and another who has a physical disability, also requiring support and consideration by the school.

Essentially they both have a disability and they both have SNs, by my reckoning, based on the fact they both need support to access learning effectively they both also have SENs - apparently the educational system disagrees though.

Personally, I think the system we have works - it did for me. For those who are only just starting to realise their child may have issues (regardless of what they are) that need education support the SNinEducation board is probably where they would head first. If they're anything like I was, they might not be ready to jump headlong into the acceptance of their child's condition that comes with opting into the SN boards. The SNinEducation board is quiet, perhaps that's where we could make a difference, if we all made a bit more effort to check the board and reply to some of the threads, especially as we would then be more able to help gently redirect some of the posters to the SN boards if needs be.

As for the comments re bullying and cliqueyness on the SNBoards, it's something I have never experienced, having been on there for several years now. There will always be differences of opinions on every board and by it's very nature, the SN Board has a lot of exhausted, stressed parents on there who at one time or another may be feeling very sensitive, so it's never going to be plain sailing. I have to say though, that the vast majority of posters are genuinely lovely, caring people who give up their (often extremely precious) time to support others. Newcomers are always welcomed and whilst many of us have different beliefs and approaches to the care of our dcs, that doesn't get in the way of the genuine support on offer.

I would hate to think that someone might read one of the posts accusing the board of being cliquey and bullying and choose not to post, thereby missing out on such a wealth of knowledge, advice and support and would encourage anyone with any concerns about their dc/s to give it a try. I have never regretted it for a second.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 15:21:14

We coukd moose, but I've been on MN for 7years and as you know a daily poster on the SN boards and yesterday was the first day I learned of the SN IN Education topic.

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 16:06:54

Just reread bruffins post

"But i do get the impression they listen to those who shout and swear the loudest."

I don't think there is much shouting and swearing on MNSN????? Have I entered a parallel universe? Why would HQ condone people being bullied on the SN boards? shock

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 16:22:26

My experience is that those on the MNSN boards are more tolerant of 'differences' whether they be opinion or anything else.

I have had some experiences too of MNSN 'friends' pulling me up sharply when I have posted something that might be taken wrongly by someone or even rightly but that they consider it inappropriate.

But that isn't bullying.

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 16:44:34

It wasnt actually on the SN board at the time, but it was the users of the SN board that were bullying other parents of children with SN.

OP wanted to know why some people wanted to use SEN board rather than SN.

My DS has spld that is purely educational. The only way it affects his day to day life is lack of organisation and a bad sense of time. He is 18 and very independent.

As I said his allergies are better dealt with on the Allergies Boards

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 17:00:18

My DS has spld that is purely educational. The only way it affects his day to day life is lack of organisation and a bad sense of time. He is 18 and very independent.

What i did mean to say, any queries are better off answered by teachers or SENCOs which tend to be found on the schools boards rather than the SN boards

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 17:38:58

'What i did mean to say, any queries are better off answered by teachers or SENCOs'

That's an interesting idea. Though in reality I think it is a rare teacher or SENCO that actually knows the laws regarding SEN. Those that do tend to post on the SN board either because they do, or as a consequence of doing so.

SofiaAmes Sat 04-Jan-14 17:54:36

My experience has been that society/schools/medical professionals make a distinction between SN and SEN and therefore in order to get the best help for my children, I have to use those terms. For example, my ds struggled in elementary school because of his learning differences. He also struggled because he was sick all the time and missed weeks to months of every school year because of his mitochondrial disease (not yet officially recognized as a disability). I could never get the help or support that I need from the school or gp because as far as they were concerned he didn't have any official SN's and his SEN's were not serious enough to pay attention to (their words, not mine). Ironically, 2 weeks before the end of elementary school, they finally gave him an IEP for speech therapy because he had developed a strong lisp (a symptom of his mitochondrial disease), and I used that as an opportunity to write in all the extra support he needed because of his SEN's.
Also, I found that ds often had friends who were on the spectrum, but their parents often commented to me that I didn't have the same struggles that they did because my ds didn't have an official SN.

PolterGoose Sat 04-Jan-14 17:57:14

bruffin in my experience, and I am not alone, teachers and Senco's have been the least knowledgeable professionals I've encountered in terms of SEN support/law and I really wouldn't trust most teaching staff to know how to support a child with disabilities/additional needs, which is why they're supposed to take advice from external experts (SLT, OT, medical professionals and so on). You've clearly been more fortunate in your encounters with educational professionals, most of us aren't so lucky.

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 18:03:55

SEN is not just about law. I have had no problems accessing or getting help for my DS. Both primary have always been helpful giving him one to one or getting him extra time for exams. Its pretty obvious he is very very bright, just behind the rest of "himself" mainly in writing.

PolterGoose Sat 04-Jan-14 18:04:10

Sofia are you outside the UK?

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 18:25:02

If your child has an 'obvious' requirement for help, it does make things easier often. But most SEN and SN's are outside the training and experience of the average teacher and SENCO, in terms of strategies and duty of care.

Teachers often think they know what is expected of them but this is often down to cultural-bias and inadequate and often inappropriate training from LAs encouraging schools to keep children in the cheapest provision rather than adequate provision.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 18:26:53

'Also, I found that ds often had friends who were on the spectrum, but their parents often commented to me that I didn't have the same struggles that they did because my ds didn't have an official SN.'

I find that pretty horrible tbh. Apart from anything else, due to the spikey profile children on the spectrum often display, there is often a greater difference between them than between NT children.

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 18:48:34

I dont need help with duty of care or the law. He does not gave social or behavioural problems.
The questions i ask are best answered by teachers who know about exams he is taking or at present ucas application advise.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 18:53:05

But wouldn't you just ask on the education board for that information, rather than SN IN Education?

I know I would, as that is rather generic education information.

Posting in SN Children doesn't mean you can't post anywhere else on the board.

lljkk Sat 04-Jan-14 18:53:24

I dread the SN section, I don't belong there, They have their own group think which is not how I think. They wouldn't like 85% of my opinions and would flame me for having them.
But I do have a child who is sporadically on the SEN register & is "High profile" (for all the wrong reasons) at school.
So I know I am unwelcome in SN section but sometimes I feel safe to ask something in the education->SEN section. So I would like to keep it as is.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 18:58:47

'So I know I am unwelcome in SN section'

That's ridiculous. I'm sorry but it is. You can't possibly 'know' that. I don't know of anyone who is unwelcome on the SN board, unless your opinions are disablist.

The 'group think' extends only as far as a general acknowledgement that parent's want reasonable outcomes for their children. There is no consensus as to how to do it, or even what those outcomes should be.

I think the closest to consensus I have seen is a general agreement that to treat people equally you do not treat them the same. And even that is sometimes debated in terms of what it might look like.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sat 04-Jan-14 19:00:44

I would urge those who have some kind of issue with a board and have evidence of your 'unwelcomeness' or bullying to post a link here so that it can be a)proven and b)if found to be true, addressed.

signandsingcarols Sat 04-Jan-14 19:17:15

This may be a complete aside, and if so forgive me, but I really wanted to add my POV, I use the SN sections and find them supportive and informative, I don't always agree with posts and posters and I know some hold very different views to me about the disabilities and needs which my ds has, but I have never felt dismissed or belittled, and i have always been listened to and supported, personally it is the rest of MN that I don't 'fit' with, and I don't feel the need to engage with... but for me (as a mum of a ds with SEN/SN, as the carer for a dh who is physically disabled, and as a professional working in Health and social care) MN SN has been amazing and truly inspirational, and I woulf hate anyone to feel they couldn't pop in and check out what is on offer to see if it would be useful, or if they had anything to contribute.

bruffin Sat 04-Jan-14 19:28:21

I will and have talked directly with MN they sometimes agree they, sometimes dont.

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 19:34:13

lljkk what is the "group think" on MNSN? shock.
85% of your opinions would be flamed? Honestly? I'm really really shocked, to hear that. I can think of two times I've been cross with anyone on the sn board, in 5 years.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone flamed.

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 19:38:26

"It wasnt actually on the SN board at the time, but it was the users of the SN board that were bullying other parents of children with SN."

Eh? You don't use the board, but someone was bullied by someone and when you reported it HQ said you were right but then did nothing because someone swore and shouted??????

I have slipped into another universe. How on earth could that happen on MNSN without any of the regular users knowing about it????

moosemama Sat 04-Jan-14 19:48:17

lljkk how do you know you are unwelcome and the people on MNSNs wouldn't like your opinions. Fwiw, I have never seen anyone flamed for their opinion on MNSN, we often have different opinions, but respect our right to differ in both opinion and approach.

As sign and sing said, I feel far more unsafe and unwelcome on the main boards, where people - particularly recently - seem to think it's perfectly fine to voice extremely disablist attitudes and then cry 'professionally offended' when those they are disrespecting object.

I'm not saying the whole of MN is like that, but when I venture outside MNSN I often feel like I'm walking on eggshells, waiting for someone to 'call me' for daring to have a child who might somehow impinge on the fringes of their existence. Never once have I been made to feel unwelcome or like I don't fit or that my opinions are wrong or don't count on the SN boards - it's a place where people can genuinely post and celebrate the milestones that many others simply wouldn't understand eg an 11 year old being dry at night for the first time. There is no consensus of opinion and no common diagnoses - in fact many of the dc on there don't have a diagnosis at all. I can't help thinking something must have happened on there a long time ago (and I've been on there almost 7 years, so it must have been a very long time ago) and those who claim the board is bullying and unwelcoming should come back and give it another chance. There are a handful of longer-term alongside quite a lot of new posters, a wide spectrum of issues and disabilities and masses of different opinions and approaches, but it works - without any nastiness at all.

Blimey, this view of MNSN is not one that I recognise! I don't always agree with the opinions of all posters on MNSN, but there's rarely a slanging match. confused it's the best resource of information and support I've found and despite having a DS with SN for 14 years, many friends with DC with all sorts of SN in RL, being a 1:1 TA for a DC with SN, being a governor at a special school etc, etc, nowhere have I had more support and understanding.

I used to feel that ABA for Autism was pushed a bit on the board, but now I know more about ABA I realise it's hardly pushed at all.

The issue with SEN in Education has come up before. It's very quiet there as is SN education. SN Children is the busiest board with the most posters and the most advice. I just feel sorry for those who don't access it because they haven't come to terms with thinking that their DC may have SEN/SN or are in denial, or think that their DC's issues aren't 'serious' enough to bother the SN board. We really don't mind. We do not play SN top trumps, and if anyone did, they would be called up on it or, more likely, be given support for what is probably a shitty day (often literally! grin )

Ineedmorepatience Sat 04-Jan-14 20:49:53

I have also been around on MNSN for at least 3 years and have never seen any bullying and have only seen swearing when people are sick to the back teeth of their Dc's needs not being met.

I am stunned at lljkk who doesnt know me or anything about me and yet seems to think she/he knows what I am thinking !!

To whoever it was that thought teachers and sencos were the best people for advice... I have nothing to say bit have a biscuit

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 21:05:54

So is the rationale that it's better to have a separate section for SEN in Education because the MNSN posters are too nasty ?

<hovering between disbelief shock rage and laughter>

lougle Sat 04-Jan-14 21:07:48

I love the idea of MNSN agreeing with each other enough to have a 'party line'. We are all individuals and we have different ways of tackling the same thing.

Some do ABA, some hate TEACCH, some like nutritional support, some like therapeutic methods such as Tinsley House, some Home School, some Mainstream, some Special School....as varied as it could be.

On the subject of SEN/SN the legal definition of SEN is:

"Children have special educational needs if they have a learning difficulty
which calls for special educational provision to be made for them.
Children have a learning difficulty if they:
a) have a significantly greater difficulty in learning than the majority of
children of the same age; or
(b) have a disability which prevents or hinders them from making use of
educational facilities of a kind generally provided for children of the same
age in schools within the area of the local education authority
(c) are under compulsory school age and fall within the definition at (a) or (b) above or would so do if special educational provision was not made for
Children must not be regarded as having a learning difficulty solely because
the language or form of language of their home is different from the language in which they will be taught.
Special educational provision means:
(a) for children of two or over, educational provision which is additional to,
or otherwise different from, the educational provision made generally for
children of their age in schools maintained by the LEA, other than special
schools, in the area
(b) for children under two, educational provision of any kind."
SEN Code of Practice pg 6., referring to See Section 312, Education Act 1996.

This is further clarified throughout the code, but basically, diabetes/mild or moderate asthma/other medical conditions - not SEN.

Any disability which hinders or prevents the child making use of educational facilities or causes a learning difficulty - SEN.

JadedAngel Sat 04-Jan-14 21:07:58

If that's a genuine perception that's worrying. Of all the places on MN, SN needs to feel welcoming.

OddFodd Sat 04-Jan-14 21:30:54

Gosh, I'm really surprised by people saying they'd be unwelcome in the SN section. I'm an infrequent visitor and only start threads when I have a question (largely because I feel too ill-informed to contribute as I'm so new to all this) but I've had really good advice and support. And no sense whatsoever of 'toeing the party line'.

My DS doesn't have ASD or any of the more 'popular' disabilities either

VworpVworp Sat 04-Jan-14 22:08:09

zzzz He doesn't consider epilepsy a disability because his is controlled by medication, and is life is unimpaired by his condition (cf. colditz's experience)

polter I do think my view is similar to how you defined it- SEN is an additional need that impacts upon a child's learning.

I may point out Starlight and stripy that being top of the year may be a SEN in some schools, but it is not in DD's- she attends a highly selective academic school, and she is pushed, and stretched all the time, it is expected of their pupils.

I have never posted on SEN board (I think, but maybe for DS) but I have been lured to SN boards on occasion, primarily when moose, HJ and Hothead are on there (goldmandra, marne, and ?rockinhippy have also helped enormously), and I have received excellent advice, been warmly welcomed in the main, and empathised with- support I very badly needed at the time. There are some abrasive posters... but there are all over the internet MN, and I'm a big girl, and can stand up for myself mostly. I do realise that MNSN is a safe place, where people who are going through the same kinds of issues (and we are talking issues that are life-changing, and have serious long-term consequences usually) and posters will need at times places to vent, and to howl, rage, rail against the system, and grieve or mourn what might-have-been too. I don't think anything really prepares you for having a child with SNs, the more limited choices for that child, the lack of support for parents in that situation- I am very grateful that MNSN exists, whether it is imperfect or not.

bochead Sat 04-Jan-14 22:17:23

It took 5 years to get my DS a diagnosis, and in that time, often the ONLY place I could get ideas for how to help him was MNSN.

The board can seem a bit ASD heavy at times, but other issues are definitely covered. The sheer range of approaches and people willing to explain them is wider than I've found elsewhere.

Most teachers only do a 2000 word essay and one afternoon's lecture on ALL SN's as part of their PGCE. It's not enough by a long chalk, in recent years training opportunities for school staff have also been severely curtailed so I don't blame schools for not always having the knowledge.

Parents often try MN as a last resort or when they are feeling really stressed out and worried so I'd like to see us all address this concern that some posters on this thread have expressed. I am worried about the allegations of bullying, group think etc and feel it would be really helpful to see some links to specific threads.

lougle Sat 04-Jan-14 22:20:07

vworpvworp I don't want to speak for stripy or star, but I really don't think they meant their comments as you've interpreted them.

Star said:
"Lots of children with SEN are top of their years. SEN doesn't mean not academic any more than dyslexia does."

She isn't saying 'Top of year=SEN' she's just saying that there are children who have SEN, who also happen to be top of their year.

For instance, some children with Autism can have quite a low functioning profile in terms of every day life, but have splinter skills such as mathematics, where they are exceptionally able. So they can be top of the class for maths, but bottom of the class for many other subjects.

zzzzz Sat 04-Jan-14 23:03:45

He is very lucky to have found a drug so effective and without side effects. It's good to hear.

Many disabilities with appropriate support (be that in the form of drugs, appliances, therapy or physical assistance) can be reduced to the point where their impact on life/well being is significantly reduced. I wouldn't say the individual was no longer disabled though, because if the support was removed they would not be able to function at the same level.

The search for that support, it's form and source, is what most of us are yacking about on the SN board. This is exactly what any discussion around SEN will cover. What is the difference?

lougle Sat 04-Jan-14 23:24:01

Epilepsy is recognised as a disability, legally.

I'm sorry but I feel I have been flamed by some sn posters and if I find the Fred I will link. However unfortunately half of the convo would be gone as Mnhq deleted posts. I was not the first to be deleted but my retaliation to what was said to me was. What I retaliated to was deleted before mine. Anyway it has put me off posting or asking for help. I do however get the odd inbox asking how it's going so I done an update a few month back. I wanted to post an update again but felt hesitant. Though I eventually done it. The response shows me I still don't belong and only few are interested. I know I'm not the only sn poster to feel like this and they don't post at all now, anywhere on man, though some still defend Aibu. I do lurk and try to find info rather than ask.

For me the sn chat and sn children are confusing. What is missing is the age old argument of post 16/18. Hence why a lot felt unwelcome and left. They were posting on sn children and being told they are not children but had no where to post. I am now at that stage with 3 of my lot, 2 have been expelled from sn college.

Anyway I don't want my post to turn into a big argument, just wanted to post how I feel about the board from my experience. And although I will say it time and time again and posters don't like this but for me the board went downhill after the riv stuff. I feel people were scared to post, posters were wary of posters, some even strived for domination/hierarchy. When really the place should of remained supportive.

Anyway enough from me. I hope you all make the right decision for yourselves soon.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sun 05-Jan-14 00:16:14

'They were posting on sn children and being told they are not children'

I have never seen that dev. I HAVE seen a lot of your posts saying that you feel you don't belong however, and I have also seen a LOT of posts trying to find ways to rectify that.

Not children as they are adults iykwim, post 16 or 18, again it would be a trawl through.

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 00:20:46

They were posting on sn children and being told they are not children but had no where to post

That is certainly not my recollection of the events.

There are some posters who did comment a few times about feeling unwelcome as their children were older. They got told a lot that MNSN as a whole welcomed their posts. And would (as always) try their best to help with any issues, but that (as was being pointed out. repeatedly.) the majority of children were younger (at that time; although there was still considerable experience of various disabilities in teens and young adults).

it was repeated over and over that it was not 'right' to post queries about teens and young adults on the SN:children board (not, I hasten to add, by any poster with a younger child!). and a board for teens and young adults was pushed for.

this board was created, and is still in existence (I believe). it doesn't, however, get much traffic, as those who were vocal about wanting it still declined ot post, and now say they were 'pushed out' of MNSN and made to feel unwelcome for having older children and teens.

I, for one, and completely confused about it all. but fed up with the accusations of cliqueyness about a section which has historically been welcoming and accepting.

So I might of worded that wrong, I'm not here to argue. Some felt they couldn't stay as there children were technically adults. I'm now off to find the section and tell some of those who left about it. Maybe it happened after they left, I am on about people who were on mn from the beginning, so may not of seen it after leaving.

I didn't accuse anyone or mention cliqueyness

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 00:29:38

I understand the point that was boing made. I remain confused as to why it had to be made, tbh. I've been here what feels like forever, and can't see that I will be objecting to the title of the main board in a few years time - i'll either need help (highly likely) or not (would be very surprised).

the section was promised (although maybe not setup) before the posters left, I am sure.

My feelings were highlighted as others on this Fred had also said similar and received similar responses. I think only one person took on board what these were saying and wanted to try and help. As most of us have been away over a year I wonder if the board was setup before they left. Still need to find it first lol.

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 00:38:11

the teens/young adults board has been there since 2009.

it doesn't get much traffic, admittedly, but it is there. one reason why so many on MNSN were against the division was that the boards might become too fragmented, and the opportunity to give help and support lost, through simply not seeing the threads.

Wow, special needs teens and adults is there! I will let them know and then it's up to them what they do. On first glance doesn't look much traffic but I haven't looked properly.

X post

Tbh I have too much to deal with in rl to remember other peoples arguments here but maybe it was the other way round and lack of traffic making them want to post here.

zzzzz Sun 05-Jan-14 00:41:24

"They were posting on sn children and being told they are not children but had no where to post"

If that happened I am aghast. Who said that and why? MNHQ I am sure wouldn't hesitate to correct that idea.

Wasn't there not a sn law section, is that still there? < goes to have a look>

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 00:47:22

afaik, the SN: legal section is still there. along with a couple of others. The majority of traffic remains in SN: children and SN: chat though, so the other boards are pretty quiet iirc.

Yeah I've just post in legal, I know it doesn't get as much traffic but I'll see if anyone posts. Just didn't want to post back here as it looks as though zzzzz and I have x post.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 09:23:56

I am sure beyond sure that this was not what happened. What happened was a small group of posters (2 or 3) consistently telling the posters with younger children that they couldn't possibly post about their older child/young adult in SN because

a) we couldn't possibly help because we hadn't been there.

b) They wanted their own section to discuss teenage/post 16 issues with other parents of post 16s.

c) their teen's issues were private.

several of us started clearly that we were sure we could help, Google, research, etc., only to be told it was not good enough.

The teens board was set up, then there were complaints that there was not enough traffic and it was isolating.

devientenigma, you posted on a thread and I welcomed you back right there. You posted an update and got replies. Why did you feel you don't fit?

I know you did, I just feel uncomfortable, don't want to do or say anything wrong, I walk on eggshells enough at home, without doing it here too and I think because of the way I feel due to what happened to make me feel like this I lost what used to be a lifeline if that makes sense. Now if others feel like me and have post in their own defence which has been on this thread, whether we all now coloured and reading a wrong tone the responses and usual posters who defend the board can make it feel like you are being accused or that the board is cliquey. I don't mind posting this as I felt I lost this place over a year ago and like I said I do feel uncomfortable so won't post many if any of my issues but if I can help others feel they want to start posting again and find support I can try. It's horrible when you lose a lifeline and would hate for anyone else to feel the way I have.

Lol Lougle, is that the 4 replies. It shows who is interested especially when you see names you know posting above or below your thread. All that says to me is they are avoiding you, I don't believe for one minute they didn't see it. Call me paranoid, cynical etc but like I said maybe the board and what happened has coloured me.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 10:15:47

We all post threads that get very few replies. It doesn't mean anything. There are lots of new posters who won't even know who you are because you haven't posted since they joined.

Perhaps posters who feel on the fringe need to try and give support to other posters who are struggling. Then they'll feel more involved? The SN board is for getting and giving support.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 10:20:57

Oh, and as an aside, there would be no issue of traffic if we didn't have separate boards because posters feel that people with younger children cannot contribute meaningfully. I'm on a select committee for children and young people.They don't only let me contribute to matters concerning under 8's because my DD1 is 8! Similarly, the local authority phoned me and asked me to be a governor at a special secondary school. They didn't bar me because my children are primary age. I still don't understand why we aren't able to give support to posters with older children.

onwardsandsidewards Sun 05-Jan-14 10:23:53

SN Support might be a good idea, like the Feminist Support thread I just noticed.

So are you saying there should be one board? If so, I agree. I have never said though that people of younger children can't post on threads involving older children/adults.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 10:31:56

I'm not saying you have. I'm saying other posters you refer to did.

Yes, I think there should be just one board for SN support, and one board for SN issues/chat that disappear after 90 days for those who don't like their posts to hang around.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sun 05-Jan-14 10:36:39

I never post in SN legal. That has nothing to do with who might post there. If you had posted on SN children (and IMO they are children provided they have a mother) I most likely woukd have responded as that is where I tend to go.

That's good, just didn't want anyone to jump on the band wagon and think I had. As for the people I refer to, yes some left and as I have already clarified, might be getting mixed up on the ins and outs of that arguement but I see there's others on this thread not happy or uncomfortable with sn section for whatever reason.

RustyBear Sun 05-Jan-14 10:38:28

I would have thought that the main reason for keeping the separate SN section in education is that the main SN section doesn't show up in Active convos, so many posters may not realise it's there when they need advice. The Education/SN topic can act as a 'doorway' where more experienced posters can signpost the SN section if it's appropriate.

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 11:35:11

I don't think it is very fair to say that any defence of the SN section (especially when it is essentially correcting misinformation) shows how cliquey the boards can be, or that it would make anyone feel left out or worried about posting.

Imo, it would be far more damaging to leave the incorrect version (that people were hounded off because their children are too old, old to stop posting).

I'm sorry dev, because this looks as though I am having a go at you personally. I am not, and have always posted on your threads if I have seen them, have you as a friend on FB and have tried to offer support there too when I can.

We've all posted threads that get little support, or been told the opposite of what we want to hear at times. It doesn't mean people don't care.

I'm sorry Facebook became my new mn, I used to have fun there, told many jokes, had quizzes and stuff, must seriously start the fun again wink I just now have to work out who you are as you have obv nc! And your right I did feel it was a personal attack until you clarified it wasn't but it just goes to show how wording, tone etc can be picked up wrongly and how it now makes me uncomfortable, maybe some of the others are just like me.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 12:07:28

It feels massively unfair to have you come on and tell us how other posters who you do not name 'feel the same', then recount past events inaccurately (to say the least), simply saying 'oh my memory is hazy' when challenged. Why bring other posters up? It's not fair.

I think it starts on page 2 of this thread all you need to do is re read.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sun 05-Jan-14 12:14:13

That's who you are talking about dev? The two posters on this thread who haven't yet demonstrated or linked to examples of what they accuse and no others?

coff33pot Sun 05-Jan-14 12:28:42

To many pages for an iPhone and bad eyes lol but going back to sen education and sn? Some parents may only be on the first steps with their children. ie just having issues brought up in school that could well point (and quite often does) that their child has a deeper SN?

these parents may not be ready to step into the sn world let alone admit there are issues and a lot of the time "it's the school not their child" scenario kicks in.

sometimes it is a gradual acceptance and as a lot of things come to light upon starting education a separate sen section is a gentle way to get used to the idea before entering the signposted an children.

none of that I suspect makes sense! smile

It's not just about 2 posters on this thread, me or those who felt they had to go,it's about the way people feel they have been treat, the way they see things, the way they interpret things. No evidence is gonna prove that. Now I'm beginning to feel like I'm on trial. I may be able to link where I feel I have been hounded off, accused, bullied as well as times where others have been in a similar position. However these will be historic and may take ages to find. I don't recall every thread title. As for my memory I don't even know what was for breakfast, never mind what I had yesterday. As for arguing other peoples battles I've learned my lesson. However when people feel similar through my own experiences I will bring it up. After all I feel it was massively unfair the group that ganged up on me for retaliating to something that was said to me.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 13:01:34

Two threads which show MNSN posters telling other posters that they were welcome with their 'teen issues' and in fact, getting quite upset that we weren't seen as an appropriate support network:

May 2012

November 2012

PolterGoose Sun 05-Jan-14 15:58:19

Thanks for that lougle, clearly, we're just going round and round the same stuff again (and again).

StarlightMcKingsThree Sun 05-Jan-14 16:05:49

TBH I think it is a credit to MNSN posters that despite being severely criticised again and again, they are still falling over themselves to make those critics as welcome as they can and asking for proper information in order to try and make the changes necessary to ensure those posters don't feel unable to post.

And as a complete digression...

coff33pot How the devil are you?

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 16:30:16

I too, feel that this is a circular argument.

A section for teens/adult children was asked for. Done.Then complaints that it is too quiet (thread links are available to support this claim). MNSN posters offer support, but are told that they couldn't possibly support because they haven't been there.

MNSN is a place to get and receive sort, so suggestions are made that those posters can support parents who are facing situations that they have experience of. Responses of 'I've got too much trouble of my own to support other people. I need support.

Renewed offers of support are made. Offers refused. You couldn't possibly support because you haven't been there.

This issue has been raised since before 2009.It will never be solved. When DD1 hits transition, and ask those that are similar in age, we'll all talk about transition. Then complaints will come that there wasn't support for posters when their children went through transition. We'll offer support and get told 'your children are only teenagers. Ours are adults. You can't possibly know how to support -you haven't been there.'

In fact, I predict, that in 2033, when DD1 is 30, if I offered support, I'd be told 'your DD is only 30. Mine is 43. You couldn't possibly know how to support -you haven't been there....

PolterGoose Sun 05-Jan-14 16:35:49

Well said Star

I actually find it really upsetting when the SN boards are criticised for not being the same as they were. The 'character' of the boards (if indeed there is an identifiable 'character', I'm not sure there is) surely represents those who use it. Complaining that it isn't like it used to be suggests that newer posters who have become regulars (I've been around and posting nearly 5 years now but only in the last year have I become 'known') are somehow at fault for changing the SN boards. That's really not very welcoming.

The SN boards, largely SN Children, are a welcoming inclusive space. Within it we share, learn, develop, despair, weep and laugh. We also challenge and provoke at times. It's not always comfortable, many a time I've misinterpreted or got things plain wrong and lougle someone will usually correct me. I learn from that. There are topics I avoid, I hide ABA stuff, but yesterday, because of the knowledge I have gained from sensible clever posters like Star I actually advised someone to consider ABA shock That's me learning and changing. Like we all do, and hence the boards change too.

hazeyjane Sun 05-Jan-14 16:37:43

Haha, good timing on my part, i was just going to post how sick and tired I am of this implication that there is some sort of vendetta going on on the sn boards.

How about

disabled/special needs - support for carers (encompassing all age groups)

disabled/special needs - chat

disabled/special needs - parents

I think that hearing some of the arguments, that keeping a sn section in education, with a sticky at the top directing people to the sn section if they feel they need further support, is a good idea.

Would that work?

coff33pot Sun 05-Jan-14 16:40:02

Alive lol and missed you all so thought I would make a resolution to poke my nose in pop in more often grin anyhow said hi on SN board x

PolterGoose Sun 05-Jan-14 16:45:50

hazey I'm not sure I like 'carers', I see myself primarily as ds's parent, not carer. And I know it's bloody semantics again but it's too medical model for me <awkward>

For me, ds will be my child forever, many people describe their NT offspring as their 'adult children'. I really can't see the issue with D/SN: Children.

There's too many threads on this, it's all very confusing,

I was also gonna ask about the difference between carers and parents?

As for the age old circular argument I did try to say it's down to perceptions and lack of tone etc, misinterpretations etc . I for one never explain anything well and it's always picked up wrong, maybe it's like that for others. It's hard for me when my words are interpreted then I'm quizzed on what I said. It doesn't matter what I say or do it's gonna be wrong, so it then makes me afraid to type.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 17:06:46

'Carer' is a legal definition. You are a 'carer' if you spend 35 hours or more per week looking after someone who is 'severely disabled', with 'severely disabled' defined as:

eligible for, but not claiming, or claiming:
Attendance Allowance, Disability Living Allowance - the middle or highest care rate, Constant Attendance Allowance at or above the normal maximum rate with an Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit, Constant Attendance Allowance at the basic (full day) rate with a War Disablement Pension, Armed Forces Independence Payment (AFIP), or Personal Independence Payment daily living component.

So, I'd say that you are a parent, first and foremost, but once you are caring in a way that is significantly beyond that required for typical children/young people/teenagers/adults of your child/young person/teenager/adult's age, then you are also a carer.

I refer to myself as DD1's carer because it reinforces the point that the luxury of choice is not ours - she needs care and that prevents me from working. I think 'Stay at Home Mother' implies that a choice has been made.

Perhaps I would have chosen to be a SAHM anyway? I'll never know, now, because I can't choose otherwise. I tried to return to nursing, but had to reject my course and placement offer because the course required that I was available for all shift patterns and there was no way to fulfill that with DD1's SN transport.

Sorry if this comes over wrong, slightly upset over dd.....

Anyway, I meant between the boards not literally. And if that is the definition what does that make those on lower rate disability?

hazeyjane Sun 05-Jan-14 17:19:14

hmmm, yes I put 'parents' first and then realised there would have to be a distinction between parents/carers and parent's with disabilities. But you are right, polter, in that I think of myself as a parent first and carer second, it may also alienate people who are just realising their child has difficulties - it really is a thorny one.

I agree that sn:children, to me encompasses children through to adulthood, but i remember on one of the previous threads like this that parents of older children saw 2 problems - 1) they didn't want to 'frighten' people who were just starting out or (as was said to me at the time 'had cute kids'hmm) and 2) that parents of older children needed the advice from other parents of older children, rather than parents of younger children.

Does any of that make any sense? Personally I don't agree and I think we can all learn things from each other - regardless of age, diagnosis, lack of diagnosis etc.

And now i think I am going to disappear up my own arse.

PolterGoose Sun 05-Jan-14 17:33:31

Thanks for clarifying lougle, so, because ds gets mid-rate care DLA then legally I am a carer. Using the legal definition does exclude a lot of parents though.

There's absolutely no point having a SN teens board if no one uses it confused I pop in occasionally and most of the posts could be more than adequately answered by those who use primarily SN children. Even if our kids are younger many of us have professional and family experience of older kids and adults with disabilities/health needs/SNs.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sun 05-Jan-14 17:33:56

I don't think age has got anything to do with anything tbh, especially in the SN world. People are just where they are. Systems are what they are. And all of that has absolutely no consistency to speak of.

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 17:36:41

The parent/carer distinction is a fine line. I never think of myself as a carer. I probably should more.

Lougle you are right re: the SAHM issue. I chose to when dd was little. I have no choice now. I am studying (OU), but without any real hope that I will be able to do anything with it - it's 'just something to do' (although as we all know, there's plenty to do anyway!)

I do still identify as a SAHM, though. Despite ranting and racing about being stuck at home now, and not being able to make my own choices in life, etc. your post just now has made me wonder why. Hmmm. Interesting.

StarlightMcKingsThree Sun 05-Jan-14 17:40:46

I have no choice. It's why I had a 3rd. I saw it as a promotion, going from 2 kids to 3. grin

Now I'm a 'Executive SAHM', but I'm also in many formal documents 'Ds' Advocate'.

NewBlueCoat Sun 05-Jan-14 17:44:06


Ds wasn't a choice as such, but yes, he does usefully full my time now he's here grin

And has stopped (for now at least) the usual question of "so when do you think you'll go back to work" that I got all the time at dd2's school...

zzzzz Sun 05-Jan-14 18:31:11

star grin I have to admit I consider myself more shit hot barrister than legal secretary, in the SAHM echelons.

I agree that "the boards used to be nicer" is bloody rude, since what they are like is the people who contribute. angry

This has all come up before. I don't remember a single instance of anyone saying parents with older children shouldn't contribute.

If you ask my Mother if she has children she would say "yes". None of us are under 18.

If you wanted photos of older children in the TIMC campaign rather than "cute kids" perhaps you hold have sent some in?

IMO three boards are all that is required, children with SEN/SN/disabilities , SEN/SN/disabilities chat , and MNetters with disabilities . Stick a sticky t the top of education saying SEN are covered in the children with SEN/SN/disabilities board and please post.

brew anyone.

hazeyjane Sun 05-Jan-14 18:42:27

brew definitely. Maybe wine in fact!

Mumsnetters with disabilities - yes! That works, I couldn't think of anything except adults or parents.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 18:42:55

I agree, zzzzz. We all lead difficult lives. We all lead busy lives. Those of us who post on the SN: Children board, offering support to people as well as getting support, do so voluntarily. We don't say 'search the archives' if people have questions about support, statementing, school action plus. We sit and type an answer relevant to the person asking, even if the information within it has been said 1000 times.

For people to come along and say that the SN section doesn't meet their requirements and have no interest in posting, but just thought they'd let us know how crap we all are, is so demoralising.

devientenigma, I'm glad that FB has given you what you need. I have no interest in online jokes and quizzes and am rubbish at small talk. I give what I can in MNSN and get a whole lot more than I give, I'm sure. I do as much voluntary work as I can manage (governor at two schools, select committee for children and young people, independent admissions appeals panel, volunteer once per week at DD1's school, volunteer once per week at DD2's school), because it makes use of my skill set and gives me something to focus on - a change is as good as a rest, as they say.

For years I only had the internet to converse with when needing timeout from DS. I couldn't leave him in the house alone, so I used to have here for support and fb for fun. I'm sure the type of person I am at times people now on fb don't know whether I am serious or not but hey such as life. Even dds say that about me on there.

I used to like to help out on here when I could although I did find people thought my ideas were a bit extreme, then I realized I was treating everyone like DS and when you've tried everything what next. I think I got so stuck in the extreme ness that was and is DS that I could function at the going through the stages level. Now I know I'm not explaining myself right and now it looks as though here we go again, I am patronising etc when actually I'm not. Anyway did I say fb gave me what I needed.

What I needed was a face to face convo with an adult, maybe time away from the house. I defo needed and still do need changes for DS at home.i have no skills to offer and before I used to also volunteer as a parent alongside the profs on shaping the future for parents, as we'll as the kids themselves who are in the system. (What a joke that sounds with what we went through).

I do feel like you are having a gripe with me, I know I am inferior as a mother, as a wife, a a carer etc etc, in fact yes I'm totally useless, that's why life, my family etc is going through hell.

I need a life coach or something!

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 19:06:49

I don't have a gripe with you. I haven't suggested that you are inferior in any way, shape or form. I am saying that it isn't fair to come to MNSN every few months and instead of joining in, giving support, etc., just criticising it.

You came and posted on a thread. I saw your name and said 'devientenigma, good to see you!'. You posted an update, I posted. Now, you are saying that thread is evidence that nobody is interested in you.

If you are so sure that no-one is interested in you and it's all personal, you could have name changed, posted on threads, joined in, etc. Instead, you choose to believe that you are outcast from MNSN.

I can't change how you feel and I'm not going to continue to defend MNSN. It is what it is. I'm proud of all the posters there. They give, and give, and give and give some more, when frankly they're fighting big enough battles in their own lives to sink a ship.

I did not say it like that, I said that's how it feels which is different to how you say it but proves it doesn't matter what or how I say it, it's wrong. I know I could of nc but I'm easy enough guessed at who I am due to DS, then 6 kids, then 4 with needs. I know everyone has battles and i don't know how everyone seems to cope and get on in life. Everyone is fantastic.


There is no post from you here but then no doubt you will find another before me.

Ok yous all win, I'm defeated. I just thought if people felt like me, try to see it from that pov but no it completely went against me, as for bringing up old posts where people aren't here to defend themselves that's wrong too.

NoRunAround Sun 05-Jan-14 19:22:56

Devientenigma I think you're an amazing person and incredibly strong. I have some idea of how hard it's been, and especially over Christmas, so am sending you hugs xxxxx (I've changed names again)

I really must walk away now, I have been told since some time this morning, anyway Lougle your qualities are wasted in your voluntary work, maybe you should retrain as a barrister, you would be damn good.

hazeyjane Sun 05-Jan-14 19:25:31

Devientenigma, it isn't a war, you against the rest of mnsn. I am now worrying because I didn't reply to your pm, or post on your thread, because I just haven't got round to it...that's all...there is no conspiracy.

Aw thanks NoRunAround you have me beat just as much as trying to show how peoples perceptions, feelings etc do on here. Fingers crossed DS goes back to his few hours away from home come Tuesday, where I am gonna attempt to nap and catch up on the 5 nights of sleep he refused with being up a height, not to mention sorting a new carer as the one consistent can't afford to be attacked again ( who can blame her though) and continue try getting school formalised into part 4 of the statement. They already moan about the cost of him and I think what he needs is really gonna cost too much, I'm dreading asking for it. I wish you would inbox me who you are, please x

Hazey I'm not warring against mn just some think I am, I'm sorry you picked it up that way. Don't worry about the inbox or thread, we are all busy, in fact dd this weekend her ODD is shining through, she has me beat too, however one day she will see the consequences if what she has done will only affect herself.

NoRunAround Sun 05-Jan-14 19:33:36

You know who I am wink think sims grin

Ah cheers for that grin........oh how I really miss sims sad candy crush is not the same!! now shows how sad I am!

Can someone explain the group think thing please?

zzzzz Sun 05-Jan-14 21:22:08

Up thread, poster lljkk Sat 04-Jan-14 18:53:24

Thanks for that zzzzz, I knew I had seen something, was just wondering what the post in sn was referring to.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 21:31:15

I've only just seen this (not feeling at all well):

"Ok yous all win, I'm defeated. I just thought if people felt like me, try to see it from that pov but no it completely went against me, as for bringing up old posts where people aren't here to defend themselves that's wrong too."

Devient, I had to do that. Ok, I didn't have to. I chose to do that because you posted your recollection of events, which were completely false, then when you were called on it simply said 'I've got too much going on in my own life to remember the ins and outs of other people's arguments.'

If you didn't want to remember accurately, then you shouldn't have brought it up. That said, if you're going to remember inaccurately, and post that your recollection is that we on the MNSN board told other posters that their children were too old for them to post on our board, when the facts are the complete reverse, then it's only fair that the truth can be stated.

If I had said 'this is how I remember it', then people would be left thinking that everyone thinks the best of themselves in hindsight. So I posted those threads which very clearly show that we were imploring posters to stay and get support, but they were telling us we weren't able to support them because we didn't have experience.

Ok in response to that I am only going off people's inboxes, I have been asked to post this link in response to yours which I felt no it's not my fight, I'm coming over wrong and it's me getting the backwash, however I will post it as it also shows how people thought I wasn't bullied but at the time it felt as though I did. Anyway again it's perceptions and feelings etc stuff that can be mislead in a post and if you aren't that good at explaining, well your screwed, don't post, I get it now.


The trouble with the sn system, depending on experience etc and I know it has made me cynical, once I have that someone is against me it sticks, I am a born worrier and yes this is only mu pov but maybe others are like that too.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 21:54:28

"Ok in response to that I am only going off people's inboxes, I have been asked to post this link in response to yours which I felt no it's not my fight, I'm coming over wrong and it's me getting the backwash, however I will post it as it also shows how people thought I wasn't bullied but at the time it felt as though I did."

So you are posting on behalf of posters who aren't brave enough to post themselves? Who are willing to talk through the medium of devientenigma? Who are willing to slag us off through you? And you think that's right?

Like I said earlier I learnt my lesson, you knew before now I was. Maybe the word isn't because they are not brave but not as foolish as me for trying. No one is slagging you off, like I said its perceptions and how people are feeling, there has been a lot of hurt gone on and I think we can see who has been hurt the most by those who have left. An individual is nothing if they feel and see differently. Yes I thought it was right to help, obviously I'm not that good at it but then I'm useless at everything. Plus it doesn't matter what I do or say its wrong and tbh I don't care how crap you make me look.

hazeyjane Sun 05-Jan-14 22:15:00

I don't think I can read this anymore. You are saying you are the mouthpiece of people who are unwilling to come onto the thread themselves, to say how badly they have been treated by....who? All of MNSN? I don't think I understand it anymore, but one thing is clear it is not helping anyone to keep raking up these supposed hurts.

I am out of this thread, and won't be getting involved in any more that start going the same way.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 22:19:00

I read that thread earlier. I have just re-read it to make sure I haven't missed anything. I'm not sure what point your friends in your inbox were making?

For clarity, I only posted twice, once with a suggestion, then a quick follow up saying 'stupid me, I didn't read the thread...'

I have just read every single post. I can't see a single one where there was bullying behaviour. I can't judge the posts which were deleted, of course, but there seem to be equal deleted posts between yourself and another poster, so it seems tit for tat.

Re. the namechanging poster, come on. It was a bit daft to change names by one digit and one piece of clothing then expect people to realise you want to be incognito! If you want to be incognito, change your name significantly.

Your first post on that thread was to say 'I don't think you should be doing a campaign because even if you do, no one will grasp what our life is like and we'll still be outsiders'. You went on to tell the other SN posters that they couldn't possibly have a life like you do.

I am sure, beyond doubt, that your life with your DS is extremely challenging. I am sure, beyond doubt, that it must hurt all the more because you had the triple test and were deemed low risk for DS, then went on to have a DS with DS that is at the extreme end of severity. I am sure beyond doubt that you feel isolated and that you are against the world.

That doesn't give you the right to tell everyone else that they don't have it hard, or that they can't struggle, and you can't claim that it's misinterpretation by other people when you actually type the words in a post.

No one bullied you on that thread. People bent over backwards to discuss it with you. They expressed concern for you. They asked you time and time again what would support you.

If your friends have issues with MNSN, perhaps they should be bold enough to address them themselves? I can't see why you have to front it for them.

And like I said I am no more, there was only a few not all of mn, think of clothing. Then there was a few from page 2. However it doesn't matter how people feel if they don't fit, feel uncomfortable etc it's tough for them as there's never a happy agreement. And yeah I will be slated for saying that, maybe I'm using the wrong words, maybe I'm being picked up wrong. Either way where is the compromise when people feel hurt and there is no proof, how do they feel they can post again?

lougle the nc poster is not who you think it is! I am not incognito with them, lightpassenger would clarify that as she has just told me who it is. But then yet again I won't be believed, you'll come up with something else which I also can't defend, I defo think your voluntary skills are wasted as you would be paid good money as lawyer or barrister.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 22:27:00

They have to decide if the support they get is worth moving on from the hurt they feel? Just like I did when I took a break and then, after some time, came back? It's how adults deal with life. Nobody will force people to post. I have never seen someone excluded on here. Never. Yes, people disagree. Yes, it can be hard to see a way forward if every suggestion you make is met with negativity and rejection. But the same old posters keep trying, again and again.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 22:28:35

I was referring to that thread, not any other, regarding nc posters.

Please don't use your suggestion of me retraining to be a lawyer or a barrister as a thinly veiled insult.

Hang on why me? Life is still crap but the updates I posted were positive. I have not helped or asked for advice in case I say or do anything wrong. I have protected myself from that. I try to help a few others, it's going wrong, I back down.

Oh god I'm lost now, I thought you meant the 2 nc on here. Anyway if you knew me you would know that it's not an insult.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 22:34:22

No, I meant on that thread.

My post of 22:27 was in response to your question:
" Either way where is the compromise when people feel hurt and there is no proof, how do they feel they can post again?"

I was referring to the people who you vaguely reference who feel hurt and have no proof.

lougle Sun 05-Jan-14 22:35:32

Anyway, I'm done. I had a migraine earlier, I took my 2nd to last maxalt to combat it. I've only got one left and I'm not wasting it.

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