Budget 2013: did you see it? What did you like/not like?

(246 Posts)
SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:00:22

Morning everyone,

George Osborne will be standing up to give his 2013 Budget at 12.30pm today. With the UK experiencing its longest period of economic stagnation for a century, and the public squeezed between rising fuel costs rise, falling welfare payments and flat-lining wages, the country will be giving him its full attention. In terms of family finances it's possible that the most significant announcement for most of us has been made already: the government outlined its plans for the Tax-Free Childcare Scheme yesterday (read all about it here). But inevitably there'll be plenty more to come - look out for announcements on fuel tax, first time buyers and alcohol (dear to your hearts, we know ... )

Here's a link to the BBC's live stream; for those of you at work who can't see it, we'll post the key announcements as they happen; do tell us what they mean for you.

And for those looking for an at-a-glance rundown of what's been said, we're delighted to welcome back Mark Dampier, head of research at independent financial advisers Hargreaves and Lansdowne, who'll be sending us his bullet-point version of the Budget as soon as possible after Osborne sits down. And Will Hadwen, rights adviser at charity Working Families, which offers advice on advice on employment rights, benefits and tax credits for working parents, will be giving us a breakdown of what the Budget means from their point of view.

Off we go ...

HippiTEEHoppoTEE Wed 20-Mar-13 12:10:09

::hides behind hands and peeks through fingers::

LexyMa Wed 20-Mar-13 12:17:35

At work (public sector, but not on strike). Lunch break. Can't watch (ancient Internet Explorer that doesn't do streaming video), news websites similarly clunky, and no radio. I'm relying on this thread, don't let me down!

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:21:41

LexyMa we'll do our best! <cracks under pressure>

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:24:16

in fact LexyMa the Evening Standard appears to have the whole thing already!

SilverSnake Wed 20-Mar-13 12:29:27

I love the last question about what the PM will spend his millionair tax break on lol

Headinbook Wed 20-Mar-13 12:31:42

I am terrified that the 15 hours for 3 year olds is going to be withdrawn or means tested - will follow this thread as can't actually bear to listen live...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:34:37

he's up!

lubeybooby Wed 20-Mar-13 12:35:35

oh god here we go..

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:35:40

I am listening on the radio. There is a chance I will put my foot through the telly if I watch it!

I'm not hopeful that many people,who need support will get it, and that business will be graced with goodies which won't necessarily benefit the UK or society.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:35:50

lots of cat-calling/halloo-ing ...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:36:30

this is "a budget for our aspiration nation", apparently. Can you get that on a t-shirt?

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 12:36:45

Would like to watch but dear old George makes me rather irrational and want to throw things at the tv!

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 12:36:50

now they are getting a telling off....

Oodsigma Wed 20-Mar-13 12:37:17

Marking my place so I don't have to listen to the waffle and see George Osbourne

Main concern is motoring costs. We live ruralish and both drive 50miles to work.

stretch Wed 20-Mar-13 12:37:54

I am worried too. I am a SAHM and don't think I actually need help with childcare costs, personally, until I go to work obv, but the 15 hours that DS2 gets is for HIM. It's just enough to get him prepared for school.

In fact, the 2 full days he goes (I combine the vouchers and pay for the lunch hour) I volunteer BOTH days at the Surestart Centre! So not for me to go for lunch or coffees! If they withdrew this, then I wouldn't be able to afford to volunteer. Lose/lose...

Oodsigma Wed 20-Mar-13 12:37:57

Wanted to 'like' your post there shelley

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:38:06

My mums old tv had a wonky line running along it - she says it was the result do throwing her walking stick at Tony Blair!

HippiTEEHoppoTEE Wed 20-Mar-13 12:38:11

I can't even listen to him. He just sounds like this 'blah blah blah lies lies lies'. I'll just read the highlights.

fiddlemethis Wed 20-Mar-13 12:38:40

which radio statio are you listening to ?

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Wed 20-Mar-13 12:38:51

I'm also watching, but not espcially hopeful.

Was that Ed Balls getting told off? I hope so because he's an utter tit who's set the Labour Party back years

MissPricklePants Wed 20-Mar-13 12:38:58

I am watching it now, he is getting heckled a fair bit!

MissPricklePants Wed 20-Mar-13 12:40:37

It is utter lies and lies isn't it?!

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 12:40:38

aspiration as in the medical sense? i.e choking,

the nation is choking, I would tend to agree grin

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:41:27

Sadly I don't 'aspire' anymore. I just struggle to make ends meet. I don't want handouts (not that we'd get anything at all anyway), I just want imdusties to recover and the cost of living to stop galloping. Don't get me started on utilities.

Unemployment lower??? There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Fewer people claiming dole because fewer can claim dole.

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 12:41:52

Stretch - I'm also one of those good for nothing sahm that this govt so hates (after they made me redundant). Am holding out for dds nursery funding in September - she needs it as there is no way she will be ready for school next year - if there are any places left!

Headinbook Wed 20-Mar-13 12:42:08

Scruffalo I think that too every time I hear talk of aspiration.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:42:24

I'm also watching on BBC news for the tweets. Very amusing.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:43:25

Oops, connection down there for a sec, but back up now .. Growth pegged at 0.6% for this year and next according to OBR ...

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:43:40

For every one job lost in public sector, six are created in private? Not in my industry, mate!

So teachers can work in KFC then?

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:44:05

I can actually feel my blood pressure rising.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:44:31

The deficit continues to come down, says George. From 11.4% of GDP in 2010 to 7.4% this year ...

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:44:55

Moominsarehippos

I'm also watching on BBC news for the tweets. Very amusing.

Or watch us! @MumsnetTowers <redoubles efforts to be amusing>

stretch Wed 20-Mar-13 12:46:20

I am not watching this live. I am just relying on MN. (Dh won't let me, he values the TV too much!)

MissPricklePants Wed 20-Mar-13 12:47:06

I am now shouting at the tv much to dd's amusement!

HippiTEEHoppoTEE Wed 20-Mar-13 12:47:08

I think I'm too ill to deal with this. I'll read the depressing summaries after I have a sleep!

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:47:13

The promised spending reductions have been "more than delivered", he says ...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:47:44

The measures he will announce today are "fiscally neutral" ...

Please god not petrol. Its already £1.40 and I need the car to get to work.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:48:13

I am multitasking! Watching on BBC, one eye on Mumsnet and listening on radio 4. I am also clearing out cupboards and doing a bit of work.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:48:30

... and apparently if you "ask the British people" they'll say that we should spend less rather than tax more. Well, British people?

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:50:26

I miss working in the City! It was so much fun on Budget Day.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:51:08

Getting into economic specifics now. Lots of numbers. Everyone in the house very muted because they don't understand what he's on about

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:52:07

Govt depts are forecast to underspend their budgets by more than £11m this year ...

wannabeEostregoddess Wed 20-Mar-13 12:52:25

Well Gideots rich mates would say that...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:52:42

Schools and health budgets will remain protected this year: "our promise to the NHS is a promise we will keep", he says

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:53:14

... but most depts will see a 1% spending cut

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 12:54:22

......but their staff to get pay cuts

stretch Wed 20-Mar-13 12:54:33

I think you could do a bit of both! Why not tax a bit more, esp luxury items and cut down certain others things, ie food allowances etc.. for MPs/HOL hmm

PainForLife Wed 20-Mar-13 12:55:00

he is sounding like blah blah blah to me aswell I.e lies lies lies......

as someone who was made redundant because of his crap budgets and tax cuts & being forced to go on benefits due to lack of jobs I wanna just throw "something" at him [angry face]

LOL can he feel the wrath of people as he is chocking away.... smile

SilverSnake Wed 20-Mar-13 12:55:09

Where are these 60k jobs coming from and where do I apply?

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:55:22

Govt will "extend the restraint on public sector pay for another year" - pay rises limited to 1%

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:55:53

oooh - he's got a frog in his throat! Whole thing stopped while he choked and had some water. Drama ..

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:56:00

I had one of those once, sniff.

HolidayArmadillo Wed 20-Mar-13 12:56:27

He's got a face I'd never tire of punching.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:56:37

He is choking isn't he? What a nightmare. Where's his whisky?

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:57:39

rofl moominsarehippos

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 12:58:20

Back to the matter in hand: military will be exempt from 1% cap on public sector pay

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 12:58:35

I've come to the conclusion that the only qualifications that a politician needs is the ability to talk bollocks. Can we get rid of this bunch of fools?

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 12:59:26

What happens if he does choke? Does someone take over? His voice is getting quite wobbly now. Poor love.

PainForLife Wed 20-Mar-13 12:59:31

omg someone kick him "spending more on railways" by increasing the tickets prices year on year....!?!

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:00:00

What? He doesn't have a degree in Economics? Well I never.

wannabeEostregoddess Wed 20-Mar-13 13:00:41

I think Channel 4 should make a programme where he has to go work in poundland for JSA for 8 weeks.

Seriously. I would give my right arm to see that.

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 13:01:21

Not yet lady Mary.unless we start a mumsnet revolution.Would that work?

soverylucky Wed 20-Mar-13 13:01:22

1% whoop de doo.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:01:26

Investment now: infrastructure investment will be boosted by £3bn in 2015/2016

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:01:35

We = You! hmm

I may have to throw something at the tv in a minute maybe not as I'd have to pay to replace it

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 13:02:39

Ok, have tv on now. Is it me or do the cabinet look rather smug?

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:03:16

Yeah, infrastructure investment is really going to help people feed their children. Where are they going to get the workers from? Get the builders to make more social housing, this will help.

mistletoeoak Wed 20-Mar-13 13:03:41

Is it April 1st? clueless ... aspire for the rest of this to be utterly dire

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:03:51

oooh - big reaction to announcement that some industries will be exempted from the climate change levy - what do you think?

HolidayArmadillo Wed 20-Mar-13 13:03:57

I can't watch any more. Overpaid, plastic, self important, smarmy scumbags.

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:03:57

Dunno, shelley, my screen is pink (needs a new TV).

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 13:04:04

I have taken the precaution of having dd asleep on my lap so I can't throw anything!

landofsoapandglory Wed 20-Mar-13 13:04:15

Military will be exempt from progression pay rises, not the 1% pay rises.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:04:37

He's talking about investing in shale gas now. Any energy/environment experts care to comment?

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:04:40

That'll be us paying for that then, SarahMumsnet!

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:05:17

Capital gains tax relief for sales of businesses to employees ...

PainForLife Wed 20-Mar-13 13:05:32

"tighter increase on spending" I think he just wants people to start dying.... a thought perhaps a tactic to control birth rate in UK hmm

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:06:41

He wants Britain to be the place "where people raise money". Slip of the tongue, perhaps - or new economic plan? grin

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:07:21

Sometimes I think it would be easier to raise money than to raise children <muses>. Less answering back ...

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:07:56

Just bring back the workhouses. We all know that this is their master plan. Stick anyone infirm or jobless in there and leave them to die. It'll reduce the deficit and open up the housing stock. Less nurses will be needed to care for them so it's a win win for this bunch of fools. angry

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:08:10

"Britain is open for business" apparently. Corporation tax to be reduced by a further 1%.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:09:03

On to tax evasion. He's against it.

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:10:32

Yeah, that's why they have been allowing the large corps to get away with it for so long. It's all talk and no action. Someone needs to pump some viagra into this lot.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:10:54

he's unveiling a bunch of measures to bring in unpaid taxes - details available afterwards. There'll be naming and shaming of people who promote tax avoidance schemes.

VictorTango Wed 20-Mar-13 13:10:57

Unless his friends are the ones doing the avoidance I suspect

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 13:11:08

Yes it's only the poor that they want to die. I think I am getting grumpy in my old age. ooh child care now

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:12:20

Reaction from elsewhere: Greenpeace already coming out against announcement on shale gas mining (fracking)

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:13:01

The poor are a burden. sad We should measure a society on how well they support their most vulnerable, not on how much of a burden they are. Wankers

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:13:05

Bringing forward intro of single tier pension to 2016.

latebreakfast Wed 20-Mar-13 13:13:25

Will he name and shame all those that "employ" their spouses as "researchers" in order to get extra tax allowances?

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:13:53

oops - beeb has flat-rate pension being brought forward to 2014 - my mistake

Tortington Wed 20-Mar-13 13:15:00

tax breaks for the oil industry ......the tories .........I can't believe it - never, it's not like them to make rich people richer at all

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:15:02

The vulnerable won't make it until 2016, Sarah. People are dying daily due to ATOS and benefit cuts. sad

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:15:57

Dammit! I was right the first time. 2016. Sheesh.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:16:40

Single tier pension! But we'll all be working until we drop anyway.

I can't get my head around these Very Big Numbers. Can't they cut off several zeros? I can understand £350, but my brain can get around £3.5 billion.

PetiteRaleuse Wed 20-Mar-13 13:16:51

Why the obsession with buying own home? Isn't encouraging people to borrow more than they can afford to pay back the whole reason for the recession? In effect they will be 95% of property value combined mortgage/loans? Can someone clever explain why this is a good idea?

landofsoapandglory Wed 20-Mar-13 13:17:42

The home buying thing might help people I suppose.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:18:54

Home buying caused all the shifting the US. Scramble to lend to people who couldn't pay back. Surely it's better to get more folk into stable employment first?

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:19:38

News on help-to-buy - £3.5bn of capital spending going into shared equity loans. Put down a 5% deposit from savings on a new-build home and gvt will loan a further 20%, interest free, repayable after three years.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:20:16

oh and from earlier - social care spending cap to be brought forward to 2016 to protect savings over £72,000

landofsoapandglory Wed 20-Mar-13 13:20:23

I'm glad the fuel duty is cancelled.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:20:50

They will find that a silly amount of people will lose their homes.

I don't drink beer.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:21:06

September's fuel duty increase CANCELLED (as widely reported in advance)

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:21:17

Booze! he's on to booze ...

mistletoeoak Wed 20-Mar-13 13:21:33

Beers all round then smile

sweetkitty Wed 20-Mar-13 13:21:38

I just thought instead of all this buy your own home thing why not build more council houses?

Affordable rents (which the government gets as revenue), a boost to the construction industry etc?

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:21:51

Oh do shut up George. Stop being so condescending.

PainForLife Wed 20-Mar-13 13:22:10

exactly encouraging people to get mortgages they can't afford already has lead to one global recession....how on earth is it a good idea to start the whole process again.... I'm getting very angry now!!!

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:22:19

Help-to-buy; helpful to those in work (laughs), will the banks make these loans when they won't lend to small businesses? What about social housing?

Oh, 1% cut in duty on beer. Lets get the UK pissed and they won't care that they can't feed their children or keep them warm. Yeah. hmm

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:22:38

Planned rise for all alcohol duties going ahead, with exception of beer. Planned 3p rise in beer duty tax cancelled - in fact he's going to cut it by 1p. "Penny off the pint" from Sunday night.

MissPricklePants Wed 20-Mar-13 13:23:01

he is a twat. Cheaper booze and cheaper fuel is just a token gesture to please people!

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:23:13

Let them drink beer ... ?

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:23:48

Stupid question... If you don't pay tax, will you not be eligible for state pension? Oooo £10k tax free earnings. Well that's something I suppose.

How many times is he going to say 'hard working families'? I shall have a sip of whisky every time he does.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:24:08

Personal tax allowance to be raised to £10,000 next year, not at the end of parliament, as previously suggested.

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 13:24:37

banks lending to people who can't afford deposits....that's never caused problems in the past, has it hmm

just another way to try to keep housing costs artificially high IMO

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:24:41

When's the next General Election? Is there a party capable of taking over?

Come on, Mumsnet! Let's set one up. We'll do a better job!

stretch Wed 20-Mar-13 13:24:50

He thinks that will appease all the tabloid readers hmm

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:25:10

The Mumsnet Party. I like the sound of that.

Tortington Wed 20-Mar-13 13:25:50

he will appease tabloid readers - they are stupid

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:26:44

Oh, he's back on aspiration again ... jobs and small businesses to be supported through "the largest tax cut in this budget". Cost of employing people a burden on small firms, so he's creating the "employment allowance" - first £2k of NI bill of small companies removed.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:27:08

'Aspiration' sip
'Hard working families' sip
'Aspiration Nation' two sips

That was short!

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:27:15

It's a Daily Fail budget. sad

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:27:15

Moominsarehippos excellent call. Will we all get special hats?

VictorTango Wed 20-Mar-13 13:27:50

Personally I'll be over the moon if this gets the housing market moving.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:28:06

"the way to restore our economic prosperity is to energise the aspirations of British people". That's ASPIRATIONS. in case you missed it the first time ...

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 13:28:19

Its not cheaper booze and fuel though, its staying the same as it is now. Its only cheaper than it would be if he did increase the duty on it. That's not a saving its just hyperbole.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:28:29

... and he's commended it to the house. All done. Let's see what Ed Miliband has to say.

VictorTango Wed 20-Mar-13 13:28:41

Nothing on welfare?

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:28:48

Ahem! I'm in charge! wink

Suffragette rosettes and yellow hats with two fingers sticking up in the air.

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:28:57

Asper-what was that now? All together now...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:29:46

But controversy from without the chamber - that Evening Standard front page (linked to upthread) which was posted online before Osborne stood up, is making everyone v cross. Red faces at the Standard, I'm guessing. Apparently the person who tweeted it has been suspended <erk>

stretch Wed 20-Mar-13 13:30:18

I am not at all hopeful we will be able to vote them out come 2015. The budget that year will be all fairy dust and magic sprinkles everywhere, tax breaks here...tax cuts there...and POOF! everybody will have forgotten the previous 5 years! sad

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:30:27

Oops. grin

Meglet Wed 20-Mar-13 13:30:40

George wants us to get angry and chuck things at our TV's. That way we'll all have to head to the shops and buy new ones.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:31:25

LadyMaryQuiteContrary I'll take a rosette!

mistletoeoak Wed 20-Mar-13 13:31:26

Mumsnet Party gets my vote

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:31:54

a "more of the same budget from a downgraded chancellor" says Miliband ...

Moominsarehippos Wed 20-Mar-13 13:32:03

The other idiot's up now.

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:32:10

What happens if the Lib Dems break ranks and join Labour? wink They can't stay in office, surely? Parliamentary issues big style. Anyone got Nick Clegg's phone number?

Tortington Wed 20-Mar-13 13:32:35

the fact that it was in the standard - should have given Miliband a heads up, so much so that if he doesn't make Osbourne look like a total twat. He makes himself an utter arse

domesticslattern Wed 20-Mar-13 13:32:43

Holidayarmadillo
Because of your comment about Gideon's punchable face I have just spat my drink all over a stranger sharing a table with me in Pret. Please desist in posting these things without warning.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:32:44

Meglet actually properly rofl at that one ...

timidviper Wed 20-Mar-13 13:32:57

That whole thing was targetted at Daily Mail readers and the sort of obnoxious people in the Golf Club on that awful Dispatches about rich pensioners getting benefits from the rest of us. Let's keep property prices up and subsidise people buying houses up to £600k, which is a damn sight more than most people can afford!

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 13:33:10

"the way to restore our economic prosperity is to energise the aspirations of British people". That's ASPIRATIONS. in case you missed it the first time ...

translation: the economy is in a mess so we want ordinary people to work harder to fix it for us

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:33:12

custardo agree - it definitely ups the ante ...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:33:51

Miliband is castigating the chancellor over the growth figures - "tomorrow never comes" for Osborne, he says ...

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:35:18

"Britain's families" paying the price for chancellor's failure, says Miliband. Apparently the OBR has confirmed that British people will be worse off in 2015 than in 2010.

VictorTango Wed 20-Mar-13 13:35:54

Ed is doing well I think

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:36:00

Mumsnet United!

There's a wealth of experience, education and knowledge on here. We need to pool our resources and make our lives better because we can't count on these fools. If we want improvement then we need to make it happen! I'm sure I was a suffragette in my past life

MakingAnotherList Wed 20-Mar-13 13:36:49

I'm quite enjoying Mill I band's speech.

The cynic in me thinks they want people buying and selling houses even if they do default on their mortgages because of the stamp duty and/or CGT slice every time it changes hands.

Not much surprising though?

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:37:02

He's talking about Osborne's original 4-year plan now - and pointing out that the chancellor will borrow £200bn more than planned

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:37:50

"Three years, no progress - deal broken", says Miliband

MakingAnotherList Wed 20-Mar-13 13:38:15

Miliband, grr autocorrect

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Wed 20-Mar-13 13:40:14

We so need to get the Tories out. Grr.

The hatred between Ed Balls and Gideon is entertaining.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:41:16

oof. Osborne will see a personal tax cut of £250k, Miliband says. "Millions paying more, so that millionaires can pay less"

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:41:55

"Nod your head if you're getting the 50p tax cut" says Miliband to Cameron. Goady!

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:42:04

<Round of applause for Milliband>

PainForLife Wed 20-Mar-13 13:42:18

I'm actually loving Ed's speech!!! Go Ed smile

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:42:30

I am mainly loving the Deputy Speaker, actually

Tortington Wed 20-Mar-13 13:42:38

Millions are paying so millionnaires can pay less

Milly ...I might like you after all

VictorTango Wed 20-Mar-13 13:42:42

Ed is getting better and better

shelley72 Wed 20-Mar-13 13:42:59

Yep he's good isn't he Sarah

SilverSnake Wed 20-Mar-13 13:43:06

I like Ed miliband.

But I have to say all of them are like unrulely toddlers.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:43:11

PainForLife cross-posts!

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Wed 20-Mar-13 13:44:16

The Deputy Speaker rocks. One in the eye for all the people on mumsnet who hate people with accents grin

Tortington Wed 20-Mar-13 13:44:44

"Hands up if you're not getting the 50p tax cut," oh Milly <swoon>

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Wed 20-Mar-13 13:44:49

#Downgradedchancellor Love it!! grin

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:45:49

"More of the same is not the answer" says Miliband.

MoreBeta Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:13

Right. I've had several glasses of Chablis to get me through that and frankly I'm ready to harm to another bottle!

THAT WAS A DOGS BREAKFAEEAAARTST!

Off to read the thread.

VictorTango Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:15

##downgradedchancellor has to trend!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Scruffalo Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:24

MakingAnotherList I thought Mill.I.Band was Ed's new stage name grin

Tortington Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:28

#downgradedchancellor will be trending just you wait

FannyFifer Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:28

Fuck this shit, I hope to god Scotland votes YES to Independence next year.

SarahMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:41

.. and now the BBC has cut to news, so I'll bow out. Will post links to our experts' rundowns in the thread as they come in ...

ticklemyboobsofsteel Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:45

I actually, and rather unexpectedly, quite enjoyed Ed Milliband there...!

SilverSnake Wed 20-Mar-13 13:47:49

17/18 borrowing down to 42 - is that because they are trying to kill off poor people so less people to need anything off the govenment?

Oodsigma Wed 20-Mar-13 13:50:47

Half wishing I'd bothered to watch now if Milliband has actually got himself together!

HolidayArmadillo Wed 20-Mar-13 14:02:22

domesticslattern many apologies grin

mam29 Wed 20-Mar-13 14:05:38

More fixation with home ownership ahh!

surly banks have lots of other criteria other than a deposit.
so unless banks ok mortgages then not many deposits given.

I currently live in a new build rented shoebox which has audacity to be sold as a family home would never want to buy one and new houses depreciate faster so greater chance of negative equity.

A few years ago went to my bank barclays we then had combined income of £52k and as responsible lenders they said max 125k cant buy house for that amount round here.

Its not just about the deposit its about monthly amountl, age , duration of loan, employment. I read that banks even take into account childcare costs which are huge .

maybe someone who works in finance could agree here its bit odd.

supports big builders.

I would love to have seen land give so people can build their own wooden homes-maybe im an eco hippy but seen so many on tv and we dont get hurricanes here.

We need much more social housing the half part buy is quite complicated and restricted to specific locations.

Also much better protection for private tennants.
fair rents and rules.

maybe tax on 2nd homes ie holiday homes.

the childcares just deceitful.

no gifts for me, no cuts as they taken it all already.

spending reveiw in june with more cuts.

Viviennemary Wed 20-Mar-13 14:21:49

Well as I don't drink beer and am not a millionaire it was a complete and utter waste of time.

PainForLife Wed 20-Mar-13 14:22:36

mam29 your on spot about the lending criteria..... my brother was a mortgage consultant for a leading bank (has now changed careers due to lack of mortgag lending) he told me even if on paper it seems like a couple would ne given lending most of the time they are declined! usual reasons were "too much borrowing already so no affordability", bad track record with repayments of debt, age factor, employment history, childcare cost also included but at the same time CB & CTC counted towards income.

so as you said it more about affordability to repay the monthly amount taking into account the deposit you have!
so basically you would not obey need a good deposit you would also need to be high earners I.e combined income has to ne realistically over £50k mark and low current borrowing more like no current borrowing.

TeWiSavesTheDay Wed 20-Mar-13 14:34:02

Pretty much more bollocks that won't make anything any better as expected, isn't it?

That home buying scheme is batshit really. If you haven't got a 20% deposit in the bank how are you going to raise what is real terms will be 20/30k+ in in only 3 years to pay it back?! If you are actually wealthy enough to be able to save a 25% deposit in such a short amount of time you're very likely to be better off waiting and seeing if the market drops.

Glad Opp. pointed out they are raging hypocrites re: 50p tax rate at least.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MoreBeta Wed 20-Mar-13 14:37:41

The lowering of beer duty goes completely against the objective of taxing/pricing alcohol equally to stop binge drinking.

The freezing of petrol duty goes completely against the objective of reducing CO2 emissions.

The introduction of home buyer incentives will just be offset by the house builders raising the price of new build homes and banks raising the price of mortgages and will do nothing for people buying a used home.

Reducing corporate tax rates will do nothing to stop multinationals avoiding tax.

Just about every other measure introduced today adds acres of complexity to the tax code.

This is all just meddling. Does my head in.

teejwood Wed 20-Mar-13 14:38:14

TeWi - hypocrites re the 50p tax rate aren't just on the Tory benches.
And no - I'm not a tory voter
Don't drink beer. Not a millionaire (unlike many MP's). And haven't had a pay rise in years. The only thing that is vaguely helpful is petrol not going up.

solongivewaited Wed 20-Mar-13 14:38:53

Don't suppose the employers NI relief will make employing a nanny any cheaper? Anyone have any ideas?

MoreBeta Wed 20-Mar-13 14:39:27

Miliband was no better. All he has to say is borrow and spend!

teejwood Wed 20-Mar-13 14:40:00

Oh - forgot to add can't afford to move house, even with this madcap scheme. Agree would be better to build more social housing.
And agree with what MoreBeta says.
Just don't agree with Osbourne or Balls, or their leaders. We're all just pawns in their game.

solongivewaited Wed 20-Mar-13 14:40:35

Don't suppose the employers NI relief will make employing a nanny any cheaper? Anyone have any ideas?

TeWiSavesTheDay Wed 20-Mar-13 14:44:15

I didn't say they were teejwood all I said was that I was glad it had been pointed out.

MoreBeta Wed 20-Mar-13 14:45:20

Oh and by the way I do wish the Chancellor would stop talking about the deficit coming down.

IT IS STILL A DEFICIT!

THE GOVT IS STILL SPENDOING MORE THAN IT TAKES IN TAXES!

That means the total amount of UK Govt debt will still be going up every year until well beyond this Parliament. This is not good. Look at Cyprus to see where that leads.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 20-Mar-13 14:48:31

Beta I agree, it is a shambles.

What would you do?

All those praising Milliband - for what? His 'policy' still consists of a levy on the banks and bankers, which is miraculously going to pay for any number of vastly expensive schemes. He has nothing concrete to offer, nothing.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 20-Mar-13 14:49:15

Oh dear God now Balls is on.

<turns off TV>

FannyFifer Wed 20-Mar-13 14:51:07

scottishmerlottish UK is the sinking ship dragging us down with them.

Sonnet Wed 20-Mar-13 14:53:26

MoreBeta - if there was a "like" button I would use it on both your posts smile

teejwood Wed 20-Mar-13 14:59:06

Appreciate that, TeWi - it just worries me that some people look at e.g. Labour MP's and think "they're one of us" when so very few of them - if any - actually are.
Should probably say that I WAS a long-term Labour voter until Iraq/selling gold reserves/ridiculous borrowing during economic growth.

MrAnchovy Wed 20-Mar-13 15:01:32

@solongivewaited
Don't suppose the employers NI relief will make employing a nanny any cheaper? Anyone have any ideas?

No it won't - not intentionally anyway - this will be a relief from business taxation and as a nanny is not a business expense it doesn't help. However I can see a few possible loopholes which if they aren't closed might make this possible which will discredit the whole scheme.

At least those of us stuck with CTF can now switch them to Junior ISAs although I missed that bit being announced.

TeWiSavesTheDay Wed 20-Mar-13 15:21:23

MrAnchovy + solong - I imagine if you are self-employed you could.

HippiTEEHoppoTEE Wed 20-Mar-13 15:28:38

Oh can we Chazs? That is good news. CTF is useless.

Isthiscorrect Wed 20-Mar-13 15:37:37

Does anybody have links to more info? I am very interested in the social care costs as my DM went into residental home a short while back and we are in the process of doing up her house and working out costs to see if we need to sell it to fund her care.

mam29 Wed 20-Mar-13 15:57:16

Pain for life-glad its not just me who thourght that,

Only people i know who brought in recent years are 2income families and people who had financial assistance from families most who had no kids at all!

As he announced it the caveat was subject to banks checks and conditions be like lending to small businesses its a scheme announced and availible but not many benefit from it.

Short of inheritance cant see us owning hubbys 41 this this year and under 50k. we have some consumer debt we are paying off, big loan in 2015 and houses round here the kidn of size would would need as in buy stay in and ie as moving up ladder so hard these days.

Other alarm bells up to 600k thats huge amount to guarantor.

Also another point bbc raised its not for 1st time buyers can be used by those who already own to move up ladder providing they can find some mug to buy their overpriced starter home!

So the couple on 150k each get to upgrade to house with room for pony and childcare help and the 100k a year working couple can get childcare help keep cb, get income tax cut and now this.

They should stop buy to let as they not building at a rate that replaces and theres huge demeand shortage but if the build too much think figure quoted was 15,000 home drop in ocean compared to whats needed then that will lower house prices

Would love to see obbsesion move fro home ownership why is aspiration just owning cant people aspire to living wage, a few luxuries ie travel or just aspiring not to worry about how much shopping is in a supermarket?

I aspire for my kids to do well.

latly i aspire to emigrate and live elsewhere as uk so depressing at times.

I would like to see new rules that my agents dont fleece me for admin fees every time they renew contract, that they dont harass me by doing 3monthly inspection, that im allowed a family pet, that the rent is fair and repairs done prompty to high standard and they treat with with some ounce of respect when i go into their office.

I recognise right now and we only have 3years that we cannot buy.
still we have 3lovley healthy kids which we fully support ourselves other than child benefit.

I would love to go back to work but their childcare proposal stil doesnt help me unless I get a high earning job and dont have the after school provision here and holidays for older kids.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 20-Mar-13 16:15:26

Chaz not this financial year I don't think, although I am really pleased to see that it is being looked at.

I don't even mind if the CTF just sits there doing absolutely nothing, provided I can open an ISA for DS1 as I am going to for DS2 (who doesn't qualify for a CTF).

Hippi
I just checked in the full Budget document and it says they are going to consult on ways to transfer the CTF to a Junior ISA so watch this space.

Ali
x post I was reading the budget document. Yes you are correct it won't be right now but at least they seem to have recognised the problem at last.

ChocolateCakePlease Wed 20-Mar-13 16:23:49

I don't like the way some of the things aren't coming in until April 2015 - a couple of months before the next election. Seems like a ploy to gain votes just in time for the election.

HippiTEEHoppoTEE Wed 20-Mar-13 16:24:51

Ah well. Maybe in a year or two.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 20-Mar-13 16:26:11

Chocolate that is normal, for the measures being announced to be for one, or two years ahead. The things which will change next month in relation to tax credits, tax thresholds and so on were announced last budget or possibly even the one before.

ChocolateCakePlease Wed 20-Mar-13 16:27:19

I don't sound cynical do i? grinwink

ChocolateCakePlease Wed 20-Mar-13 16:37:14

I'm still not over the fact he did a U-turn on VAT on hot take away food (pasties/pies/sausage rolls.) It's unfair that as a small business we have to pay VAT on hot food we sell from a hot cabinet (been law since the 80s) yet big companies such as Greggs carry on using the legal loophole to avoid VAT by exployting the fact they have a high turnover of customers so can therefore bake throughout the day and sell it from there unheated display because have a quick turnover. angry

Last Budget they tried to close that loophole until Greggs made it sound like the Government were bringing in VAT on hot takeaway food for the first time when in actual fact it had been law since the 80s to charge VAT on food served from a hot cabinet or if it is kept hot from heated lamps. VAT was never applied to food that is cooked and left to cool because that covered things such as pies that would be bought and re-heated later at home for tea etc. Sadly Greggs and the like took advantage of this loophole by baking throughout the day and serving lukewarm pasties to fool the public they wanted you to have it "freshly baked." In other words serve you lukewarm pasties to aviod VAT.

So smaller business loose out and the big guys win as usual.. that lost you my vote Mr Osbourne.

MrAnchovy Wed 20-Mar-13 16:37:17

@TeWiSavesTheDay
MrAnchovy + solong - I imagine if you are self-employed you could.

No that would not be legal.

MrAnchovy Wed 20-Mar-13 16:43:27

@Alibabaandthe40nappies
The things which will change next month in relation to tax credits, tax thresholds and so on were announced last budget or possibly even the one before.

Actually the changes to tax credits and other benefits (increase by 1% instead of CPI) and the income tax threshold of £9,440 (was planned to be £9,205) were only announced in December 2012.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 20-Mar-13 16:47:18

MrAnchovy grin I was generalising.

It is fairly usual to announce measures further out though, isn't it?

The nanny point is surely that if you directly employ your nanny (not through an agent or if she is self-employed) and currently pay employers' NI etc then you count as a micro-business and ought to benefit.

ChocolateCakePlease Wed 20-Mar-13 16:56:59

Certain things they could do sooner. To me it just looks like a ploy to bring certain changes in just in time for it to fresh in the voters mind when Election times come. I could be wrong but i don't trust this Government.

pacificjade Wed 20-Mar-13 17:23:22

I am involved in the beer industry & thought I'd point out that although the beer duty looks cut at odds with government policy it's not really been reduced to help drinkers.

There has been an almost 50% hike in beer duty in the last 5 years which has affected thousands of jobs in pubs and also closed thousands of pubs. That has a knock on effect on jobs in breweries (one of the few British manufacturing success stories in recent years) & also their related suppliers and agriculture.

Sales of beer has plummeted, meaning the amount of tax the government was raising fell short of targets. Beer, which is usually low strength, is not a big factor in the binge drinking problem. Generally people are going to the pub less & drinking, relatively cheaper, imported wine at home instead.

There has been a massive campaign over the last year to cut the beer duty escalator, so this is not a simple 'please the masses' quick fix.

Snog Wed 20-Mar-13 19:32:20

Surely the home buying scheme will just mean that new builds will cost more as developers put their prices up. It certainly will where I live which is economically buoyant with lots of new build selling like hot cakes

Domjolly Wed 20-Mar-13 20:03:12

God i must hate red ed i wish he would just sit down he looks like a random that just wondered in and picked up the mic

I shudder at the thought the lefties will no doubut vote him in to rule over us all maybe they may bankrupt us again hmm

Dear lord cant even imagain this foll standing next to obama the might think hes the work experince boy or worse its a joke

Domjolly Wed 20-Mar-13 20:10:41

Snog i m a bit gutted about the house situation i think he could of done more help for forst time buyers than helping people who already have a house

We live in london and we would at least need 350k to buy a home and thats in a shitty area

We can afford the mortage but not the 50k -70 deposit that most banks want ffs

My sister and her dp have just brought a hime also live in lonon and had to find 55k deposit they earn wAy more than us but as a result have no money left there roof fell[has to buy a fixer uppper ] in lest week and are living under tarploine they dont even have £50 spare now

We just want to buy a frigging house we dont even mind being lent the deposit and are happy to pay it back

portraitoftheartist Wed 20-Mar-13 20:12:26

Help to buy your own home! Great, borrow the deposit, owe even more at even more interest, and it's got to be a new-build rabbit hutch. Your kids get a room the size of a single bed and a garden too small to play in.

Domjolly Wed 20-Mar-13 20:19:24

portraitoftheartist i know we have a large. Council home with a massive garn gidion should explain why we would give that up to live in a tiney home above a frigging lidel

MiniTheMinx Wed 20-Mar-13 20:32:51

Gidiot thinks the medicine we need is to stoke up another housing bubble, more fictitious growth based on debt.

Domjolly do you live in a council house? you who is the backbone of the striving class?

noddyholder Wed 20-Mar-13 23:15:00

Jeez he is gambling on a house price boom again. This gives temp boost to the economy via sales of household goods and employing tradesmen. By the time it is implemented and people have over borrowed again the figures will look better but in reality it is a disaster waiting to happen

mam29 Wed 20-Mar-13 23:34:18

Just read lauren keunsburg blog economics editor of itn saw her twitter updates.

The scheme is obviously designed for people who want to buy a house but are struggling to get the cash together for the kind of massive deposits many lenders currently demand.

They have, as you would expect made some exclusions, so professional investors can not use the scheme for buy-to-let mortgages, and potential buyers must be able to afford the loan realistically, so interest only deals will not be part of it. But what Treasury officials had to admit tonight, when we put the question to them, is that they have not ruled out the taxpayer underwriting the mortgages of the well off who want to buy second homes. The Department for Communities is clear however, their shared equity scheme is specifically, and explicitly only available for people buying and owning one home. But the Treasury plan, the Mortgage Guarantee, right now has no such condition.

so it could fund people trading up
or 2nd holiday homes even

its not about helping worthy individuals as its not targeted.

wealthy can benefit.

massive blow to people who felt in time housing would fall to reasonable levels,

MrAnchovy Thu 21-Mar-13 00:20:57

@HorryIsUpduffed
The nanny point is surely that if you directly employ your nanny (not through an agent or if she is self-employed) and currently pay employers' NI etc then you count as a micro-business and ought to benefit.

No you don't, you count as a small employer which is a totally different thing. A business is an enterprise carried on with a view to profit and is taxed on those profits; the proposal is to relieve from that tax up to £2,000 of Employers NI. Employing a nanny is not carrying on a business with a view to profit and there is therefore no tax against which to relieve the NI.

aquashiv Thu 21-Mar-13 00:38:48

I would not employ this man to clean my drains let alone run the country. I am sick to the very core that he is allowed to continue in this job.

margot1962 Thu 21-Mar-13 01:10:35

Labour introduced the minimum wage, which was so important. Their brief is to be on the side of the workers (as opposed to the aristocracy or establshment or millionaires or banks or big business). All the things we take for granted: free education, NHS, social services were introduced by the Labour party. Everyone should do a little research before they vote...smile

poppydoppy Thu 21-Mar-13 06:34:50

We need to make the country more attractive for big companies and the super rich to set up businesses here, instead of opening the flood gates for low level workers.
We need to stop the benefits culture that has plagued this country for years before the country goes to the dogs.

LexyMa Thu 21-Mar-13 08:42:02

ah yes, the trickle down theory. Where in the world does that really demonstrably work?

but to take your point seriously, poppy, I think that the change in corporation tax from high 20s% to 21/20 now is trying to do exactly that, encourage business. The continued existence of IR35, although controversial, also helps a sector in which the UK has proven talent

MoreBeta Thu 21-Mar-13 09:18:01

Wealth does not trickle down where their is a surplus of workers. This is especially true for relatively unskilled workers and those with skills only suited to working in declining manufacturing industry.

The problem is that immigtration of unskilled labour constantly undermines the ability of the incumbent unskilled workforce to negotiate higher wages.

The historic precendent for this was seen in the USA in the late 19th and early 20th Century when waves of desperately poor immigrants turned up constantly for years and the incomes of earlier immigrants continued to fall. Their living standards did not improve. The owners of manufacturing businesses who were able to exploit these waves of low paid immigrants grew very rich though by exporting goods to the Old World.

This is happening in Europe with waves of immigrants from Eastern Europe moving to take jobs in Western European countries. It is also happening in China with waves of peasants from Western China moving to the coastal provinces to work in manufacturing to supply export markets. It is happening in the US with South American labour flooding across the US border or US firms just shutting factories in the US and opening them in places like Mexico/Brazil. The net result is unskilled and semi skilled workers are constantly having to bid their wages down to compete or even just get a job across the Western world and youth unemployment is skyrocketing.

This is why UKIP is becoming so spopular. It is not racist to say that uncontrolled immigration is causing huge economic consequences for people on low wages while the owners and controllers of capital have seen their incomes and wealth surge in recent years as they have been able to take advantage of flat or falling wages of workers.

It is these basic economic facts that this budget did not address.

MrAnchovy Oh I see. Which seems a shame but I suppose "making it cheaper for people to have a nanny" wouldn't be a great headline...

Xenia Thu 21-Mar-13 10:13:55

On NI and nannies if you look at cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2013_complete.pdf and hm-treasury pages they say businesses and charities.
I do not see why creating work for domestic servants should not be in the same category and may be as Cameron supposedly wants the female vote there could not be some lobbying to include nannies in the scheme too - after all they pay tax and the state wants more people working and more tax paid.

Most people who work full time need childcare which costs about £14k per child in London so about £30k if you have a couple of children at nursery or with a nanny out of taxed income nothing like the pathetic £1200 per child to be given to those with children under 5.

Anyway the housing thing will be interesting. On R4 this morning Osborne was asked about the second home point and he inferred all the details have not yet been worked out.

It certainly looks like low interest rates and house prices will be propped up for a goodly long time with no crash in prospect although the scheme is for a limited period only. 3 years I think after which the Bank of England will decide if it carries or something like that.

boxershorts Thu 21-Mar-13 11:29:15

Budget Thatcheresqu and pointless. Cameron shud change chancellors

LexyMa Thu 21-Mar-13 11:35:46

That's interesting, MoreBeta, and very well summarised, thank you.

However, elements of that system are ripe for key pieces of corrective action which the government could easily put into place:

"immigtration of unskilled labour constantly undermines the ability of the incumbent unskilled workforce to negotiate higher wages."

- isn't the answer either a faster-growing NMW, or specific living wage per region (which, if cheaper in non-London conurbations might also improve business-led regeneration there)
- also (and much more lefty?), capped ratios of director-to-shopfloor pay, with senior bonuses also more tightly controlled perhaps by shareholder vote, so that within at least a corporate unit there is a better sharing of the profit of that business.

"uncontrolled immigration is causing huge economic consequences for people on low wages while the owners and controllers of capital have seen their incomes and wealth surge in recent years as they have been able to take advantage of flat or falling wages of workers."

Again, this concentration of wealth in a few hands can't be an ideal outcome even in a very hands-off capitalist system.
- Some intervention to ensure that immigration is both legitimate and optimised against the available jobs/skills required surely helps balance this flow. Isn't this what Australia does?
- I can see that the free movement across Europe has a huge effect and it is tempting (UKIP style) to want to just get out. However, the UK's problem is surely that our working age population don't seem to have the language skills or adventurous nature to go in significant numbers in the reverse direction (even if wages were comparable). The UK also offers high standards of state-delivered services but without our interpretation of the EU construct is somehow less able than other EU member states to restrict who can access them (I know little about this, so would be resting on tabloid-level info if I went further in discussion of 'health tourism' for example)
- The only problem you are then left with is illegal immigration and the undercutting effects of black market labour, which isn't a tax/NMW/benefits problem, but an enforcement issue.

MrAnchovy Thu 21-Mar-13 12:57:36

Hmmm, now more details have been released it seems that the £2,000 employers NI rebate will in fact be exactly that, NOT an offset against business taxation. By default this would therefore apply to all employers, including employers of domestic servants or carers. But the Treasury document states that it is only intended for "businesses and charities"; it is not clear how they will achieve this.

Is this another "pasty tax" fiasco in the making?

megandraper Thu 21-Mar-13 13:25:39

Fingers crossed on the nanny front.

Personally I think the NICs rebate should definitely apply to carers for the sick/disabled, whether or not it does to nannies.

MoreBeta Thu 21-Mar-13 13:42:53

Lexy - the questions you have asked are about what an academic would call 'political economy' and really is what the job of politicians is all about or should be about. Balancing the economic, social and political issues for the benefit of all.

An economist purely looking at the economics would say that the UK economy as a whole will benefit from cheap labour flooding in as it will become more competitive and hence bringing higher economic growth. More especially if we focus on the things that we have a comparative advantage in already like banking and finance, legal services, high tech manufacturing (eg Formula 1 racing cars around Oxfordshire) , luxury goods (eg whisky, fashion) certain aspects of film making and production, education, pharmaceutical research, oil & gas, mining, construction.

Problem is that not every person in the economy benefits from the type of economic growth we have experienced in the last 10 - 15 years. Only an elite group in th eprivate sector really benefit along with higher grade civil servants who are paid out of the taxes that these industries produce.

A higher NMW would benefit those on lower grades in the public sector and would also benefit those that can keep their job in the private sector. Some people argue that it might though destroy other jobs that private employers cannot afford to pay above current NMW levels. The danger is that we destroy jobs with a higher NMW. Higher NMW would also draw in even more immigrants.

I do think we need to close the UK borders to anyone who is not in the highest skill and highest paid jobs (ie like Aus/NZ and Canada).

I dont like pay caps and wage controls but I do think that freely allowing skilled people to come in to compete down the pay of those in top jobs (which are frankly out of control) while keeping out those who would drive down pay of people at the bottom would be a good thing.

If we could close borders to low skill or semi skilled immigrant workers but kept it open for high skill workers then we might well have a case for raising NMW and indeed wages might be bid up at the bottom anyway with less competition from immigrants. This would help close the gap between top and bottom of the pay scale - which is in real danger of violently rupturing society if we dont do something.

It is the job of politicians to balance the politics and economics of this. The incumbent political parties are not doing that but UKIP have a message that is increasingly people like and want to hear - especially among what was the old 'working class'.

Labour are just as frightened of UKIP as the Coalition parties and they should be.

Xenia Thu 21-Mar-13 13:52:36

Mr A I was looking at that too. I suspect ehy have not drafted it yet. So perhaps parents with nannies need to keep quiet so it stays under the radar and they get their £2k a year sum rather than asking if it applies to those using nannies, most of whom contrary to popular misconceptions are not in any sense "rich" and plenty of women pay almost all their salary to cover the nanny cost.

megandraper Thu 21-Mar-13 14:01:44

Good point Xenia. I think I will shut up now!

MrAnchovy Thu 21-Mar-13 18:33:29

Xenia I wish that were the case, but the way they chose to describe the measure as applying to "businesses and charities" instead of "employers" looks deliberate to me.

But this was obviously a late and little thought-through measure - a key technical document that is usually published for budget measures (a Tax Impact Notice) has not yet been made available.

Xenia Fri 22-Mar-13 09:31:11

I can certainly see how they may not like headlines - female millionaires employing nannies to get £2k a year tax break on employer NI; "save tax on your butler" etc

nannynick Thu 28-Mar-13 13:27:50

Should it be of interest to anyone, HM Treasury have a Employment Allowance Calculator in beta testing, to help give an example of what happens in April 2014 for employers taking on staff.

Is there any latest news with regard to how "businesses and charities" is being defined, thus that it will certainly exclude small employers? Or are we still waiting for news on who it will and won't apply to.

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