Find out your legal rights during pregnancy & childbirth - new Mumsnet & Birthrights factsheet

(51 Posts)
MylinhMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 19-Mar-13 11:04:02

Hello

Judging from countless MN threads over the years, it's clear that many mothers are unsure of what their legal rights are during pregnancy and childbirth, and how they exercise those rights. Questions range from "Can I have a home birth?" and "Can I refuse an antenatal check-up?" to "Can I request an elective caesarean after a vaginal birth?"

We've been working with a new charity, Birthrights, to bring you this Factsheet on your legal rights during pregnancy and childbirth. We hope that you'll find the factsheet useful and, for new mothers especially, empowering.

We also think that, if pregnant women are clearer about their rights, it will make working life easier for hard-pressed midwives and obstetricians. So this is by no means anti-midwives, in fact Birthrights works closely with midwives and doctors as well as with patients to provide them with support and information.

Take a look at the factsheet now or post your thoughts/feedback below.

Thanks
MNHQ

Flisspaps Tue 19-Mar-13 11:12:38

It's ok - but how is this information going to be given to women? If it's just on the website, then IMO it's next to useless as this information is ALREADY all available on the net to women who search for it.

Many women assume there's no choice, so don't search for it. To be really useful, it would be better if it was included in those bloody Bounty packs that you get at your booking in appointment.

Also, the 'can I have a homebirth if I'm high risk' bit is very woolly. It needs to be clearer 'yes - you CAN book a homebirth even if you are high risk, but it would be sensible to educate yourself about the risks specific to you'. To me, it still sort of dances round the edges of 'well, the consultants will advise you to give birth in hospital, but they can't really tell you what to do' - I say that as a woman who planned a home birth despite being high risk.

Perhaps mention there's no obligation to see a consultant either, some women are referred as standard and have no idea that they don't have to go.

hellsbells76 Tue 19-Mar-13 11:38:00

I also think the word 'decline' is preferable to 'refuse', and that the bit about syntocinon/syntometrine for delivering the placenta is OTT - it's pretty unusual for declining this injection in preference for a physiological 3rd stage to 'lead to her death and/or the death of her baby.' (exception being in case of PPH but even then she can of course decline it and there are other non-pharmacological methods of treating PPH).

TeggieCampbeggBlegg Tue 19-Mar-13 11:44:52

It's a good start.

Any chance of getting maternity service websites (hospitals, birth centres etc) to have a link to it?

Like Fliss said, the infirmation is out there if women will look for it. Those who are looking for alternatives, information and choice will find it.

What we need to do is ensure all women are able to access it. Including those who don't know they gave options and choices.

hellsbells76 Tue 19-Mar-13 11:50:25

(in fact I'd say declining third stage drugs never leads to the death of the baby. What with it being already born by then and everything!)

TeggieCampbeggBlegg Tue 19-Mar-13 11:57:32

It could do with a bit about consenting to intervention or treatment in labour. Can a woman in established labour give informed consent? Who gets to make decisions then?

hellsbells76 Tue 19-Mar-13 12:09:47

Can a woman in established labour give informed consent?

Yes, of course she can hmm. Women don't lose mental capacity in labour. You probably need to wait till between contractions but a labouring women is perfectly able to make decisions about her care. Of course, it's best if she's considered all the possible decisions she might be asked to make and done all the relevant research antenatally so she's as well informed as possible before labour, but she can change her mind and give or withdraw consent at any time at all, and for any reason at all.

TeggieCampbeggBlegg Tue 19-Mar-13 12:21:36

Yes. But usually only if she has had the information beforehand. And then if she is given the information at the right time, in an appropriate manner. Does that happen?

emmahere Tue 19-Mar-13 12:25:23

Having been to the launch of Birthrights - I think it is the "missing link" which all pregnant women can tap into if they are unhappy with how their pregnancy and birth is being managed on the NHS. The big question "But Am I Allowed?" or even not wishing to make a fuss (in case they suffer worse treatment on the day) should not come in to the decisions women make over their own bodies. Birthrights has shown, by taking the country Hungary to the European Court of Human Rights that pregnant mothers and their unborn are ONE, there are no "foetal rights", and that any doctor that tries to coerce a mother into a course of treatment they are unhappy with is ignoring those rights.

This is important stuff. We in Britain, through the work of lay charities such as AIMS, have more maternity rights than any other country in the world - and we should use them!

Midwives agree that positive change in maternity services has to be lead by the mothers - and this is a big step forward to achieve that. Birthrights is even offering Pro-bono work for women who want to challenge the medical establishment with just cause.

Flisspaps Tue 19-Mar-13 13:05:42

emma That's all well and good, and I am support anything that educates women about their choices.

My issue is with how this information is going to get to women. If it's just another website, then it's only there for the women who LOOK for it - those women who think there is no choice won't look as they don't know there's anything to look for.

We can have the most amazing maternity services and rights in the universe but if women don't KNOW about their options, then they're wasted. You can have the snazziest, most informative website in the world and all the online factsheets you could shake a stick at - but how are you going to direct women to them?

Whilst I think any information is useful, it has to be disseminated in a way that is going to reach ALL women, otherwise you're effectively preaching to the converted.

Teggie But usually only if she has had the information beforehand. And then if she is given the information at the right time, in an appropriate manner. Does that happen?

No - and that's appalling. That's where stuff like this factsheet COULD be really useful, but it's only ever going to be useful if it's given to all women and not just left on the internet where only a small proportion of women will find it. Even so, that doesn't, and shouldn't, remove a woman's right to decline any kind of action or treatment during labour.

Hanginggardenofboobylon Tue 19-Mar-13 13:10:21

I agree with Fliss, unless this sheet is given to every woman at her booking in it is only going to reach those seeking information about their rights i.e women who already know they must have some.

TeggieCampbeggBlegg Tue 19-Mar-13 13:11:57

I completely agree Fliss.

hellsbells76 Tue 19-Mar-13 13:21:12

Well if it's any help, I should be a qualified midwife this summer (if I ever stop procrastinating on MN and avoiding my dissertation grin) and I absolutely will make it a central part of my practice to ensure that women have truly informed choice, and are aware that everything we offer is a recommendation only and the final decision is theirs. I've already made myself unpopular with mentors by butting in when they talk about what women are 'allowed' to do to point out that it's entirely up to them what they choose to do. It's something our cohort of students (c.25 of us) feel very strongly about and frequently discuss. So hopefully things are slowly changing, but we're up against a very paternalistic system and old habits die hard.

BourneNic Tue 19-Mar-13 14:06:57

I think there is alot we can do to make women informed of their rights and choices; by talking about it on here, by sharing to facebook,Twitter or anyother media, by using this information in our everyday lives.. and as Hellsbells has said to stop the damaging language of "let" or "allowed" being used when healthcare professionals, women themselves or others use it to talk about a pregnant women's body, and degrade through language, that women's right to herself.

JollyYellowGiant Tue 19-Mar-13 14:22:47

It might be a good idea to clarify that the factsheet is for people in England. For example, in Scotland NICE guidelines are not applicable.

stargirl1701 Tue 19-Mar-13 15:22:22

I did not know that!

sleepyhead Tue 19-Mar-13 20:36:49

Well, NICE isn't a Scottish organisation, but it's not strictly true that NICE guidelines aren't applicable - they are highly respected and used alongside SIGN (Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network) guidance, RCOG guidance, Health Improvement Scotland guidance etc - the various bodies feed into each other's work.

But yes, NHS Scotland is a separate organisation with separate governance and structure and it would be nice if people would be clear when a campaign is UK or England, or applicable to both.

JollyYellowGiant Tue 19-Mar-13 20:47:54

Thank you for the correction, sleepyhead, I did wonder about my post before I posted it, but yours is much clearer smile

fuckwittery Tue 19-Mar-13 21:34:44

I am really pleased to read these fact sheets

I am practicing my "what do you mean I'm not allowed" queries, and "sorry, how exactly are you going to cut me open without my consent" phrases when I raise the possibility of VBAC after 2EMCS. Actually, I doubt I'll go through with it but I want to see exactly how pressured/bullied women really are, and whether or not I can have a grown up conversation about risks or not.

I am ALL for informed consent but there are so many discussions that take place in hospitals that do not highlight the choices women have.

MWs in my second pregnancy, oh no we won't let you go past 42 weeks, oh no, you won't be allowed a home birth.

Sorry HOW are you going to force me to have an induction/planned section/come into hospital without my consent? Strap me down?

TeggieCampbeggBlegg Tue 19-Mar-13 22:23:07

Fuckwitter. Look at the RCOG green top VBAC guidelines. No more increased risk of scar rupture after 2 cs.

fuckwittery Tue 19-Mar-13 23:36:57

Thanks teggie, I haven't started to research it yet as early days for dc3 pregnancy, but will look at that.

TheDetective Wed 20-Mar-13 01:55:34

I'm a midwife, who had to fight fellow midwives for my right to a 'higher risk' homebirth, and expectant management when I got to 42 weeks.

I don't know what the answer is any more. sad

TheDetective Wed 20-Mar-13 01:57:18

I love it when I get a woman who isn't afraid to say what she wants. She will always get it from me.

Sephy Wed 20-Mar-13 06:39:58

I'm only 9 weeks pregnant with DC1, so I've by done loads of research into this yet. So I found it a helpful sheet to look at in one place.

It did leave me with some questions though - what is that injection mentioned for, and under what circumstances might I want to refuse it? By including the question it made me think it must be suspicious in some way, or not always for the best, but I don't have any idea why! Most of the others I could at least guess why people would choose to refuse.

MylinhMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 20-Mar-13 09:46:20

Hello

Thanks for all your posts. We've been following the discussion with interest and Birthrights has kindly sent us answers to some of your questions.

Q: How is Birthrights going to raise awareness of women's rights offline; are you working with patient or midwife groups to disseminate the information in future? (flisspaps)
Q: Are you also working with maternity services websites or the NHS to get this info up? (teggie)

A: Birthrights is very aware of the need to reach out to women and those who provide their care offline and in a way that ensures everyone is well aware of the rights in advance of giving birth. We share your frustrations that it's only those with the time and resources to research that come across this information and changing that i a large part of our plan. We are a very new organisation, run entirely voluntarily at the moment and with small budgets, but we do have big ambitions. Our website is a starting point and is currently the only place with definitive, accurate advice on pregnancy, birth and human rights written by legal experts.

Now that this is up and running we are reaching out through partnerships such as this one with Mumsnet to make ourselves more visible and more women aware of the issues. Behind the scenes we are working with midwives and doctors too and have great relationships with organisations such as the Royal College of Midwives.

Later this year we will launch our first campaign. We can't tell you too much at the moment as we are currently planning and fundraising, but the broad idea is to work with service users and those who care for them to research, brainstorm and pilot a scheme to tackle these issues. We hope it's a scheme that will ensure in time that all women in the UK have this information given to them in a way they can understand, and in good time by their care providers and that midwives and doctors are well trained and supported in these issues. We'll keep you posted.

We will also be planning work directly with particularly vulnerable groups of women looking at the difficulties they encounter and as ever our legal advice service will provide help free of charge to those who get in touch.

If you feel passionately about these issues, please consider donating to our work and we'll keep you well informed about how we are using your donation.

Q: Can you clarify if the advice is UK-wide or for English law only? (jolly & sleepy)

A: The vast majority of our advice relates to human rights law and human rights remain the same throughout the UK, as all countries within it are bound by the Human Rights Act and the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights.

Where advice refers to non-human rights structures such as NICE, this is specific to England, but Birthrights is in contact with lawyers qualified in Scotland and Northern Ireland to ensure we can give advice specifically to women in these countries should they need it.

Thanks
MHNQ

fuckwittery Wed 20-Mar-13 22:17:48

I'm a lawyer and I have to say the reference to the vast majority of your fact sheets being applicable to across the UK isn't really true for some of your factsheets although I note they state at the bottom applicable to England and wales only - but not what the post above says.

The consenting to treatment factsheet - the sections regarding the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and Mental Health Act 1983 - England and Wales specific

facing criticism factsheet - regarding public authority intervention - this is all E&W specific.

You might want to make this clearer on your main website if not already so.

trustissues75 Fri 22-Mar-13 13:01:50

This is great - but what is being done to educate the HCPs about this?

Stories such as this one at the beginning of the article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/dec/16/mothers-fighting-against-birth-intervention - are shockingly common.

I've met at least 2 mumsnetters who have had similar threats mad and even carried out against them during the most vulnerable time of their lives. It's all very well educating women - and thank you very much for this fact sheet because it is very useful - but even if you've had access to something like this when you're in a vulnerable position and you're surround by professionals threatening you with the social services and the likes what on earth do you do?!

sagefemme55 Sat 23-Mar-13 14:42:05

This is a much needed, brilliant organisation. There are some great points in this discussion. I agree the word 'decline' is much better than 'refuse'. Decline refers that there was an option.

As I midwife I have always informed women (and health professionals) that the word 'allowed' isn't allowed! Works well...
Midwives, doctors and women benefit from a gentle reminder that 'guidelines' whether local (hospital) or strategic (NICE) they are GUIDELINES and therefore guidance. They are not policies or protocols (often referred to as such and very different meanings).

Local mothers currently developing a website for families using maternity services in East Lancs, and will certainly be adding a link to Birthrights!

TheDetective Sat 23-Mar-13 23:19:06

Sage I work in west lancs smile we can't be so far away...!

MyDarlingClementine Sun 24-Mar-13 20:57:55

Agree with Trustissues.

No amount of reading you have done helps you when you are at your most vulnerable and you are especially a trusting first time mother in the hands of HCP who can be embedded in thier thinking against a back drop of an under funded over run NHS hospital.

MiaowTheCat Tue 26-Mar-13 19:42:31

I've met at least 2 mumsnetters who have had similar threats mad and even carried out against them during the most vulnerable time of their lives

I'm one of the ones trustissues is referring to - I know I posted the brief story in the childbirth forum at one point (hell I cried when I first got linked to the Guardian article as I honestly thought it was just me it had ever happened to and the weight of carrying the feeling of guilt around that I had somehow done something "wrong" to put my new baby at risk of social services had dragged me down for so long by that point it was insane).

Briefly in my case I'd got scared at the idea of a premature birth, distressed at pain relief being witheld/dithered about for 3 1/2 hours and was being shouted at to have forceps used with no option to refuse - I panicked, was trying to get them to note my safe pain-free gap to prevent SPD damage... and was referred to social services as a "resistant patient" for it. No one should ever have to go through that - I was basically nothing more than a piece of meat and it replayed itself in my mind every single night, in crystal clarity until my second child was born last week - and seriously God bless the hospital who delivered her, who spent endless hours reassuring me they weren't going to call social services if I panicked or didn't want them to do something, and that basically what went on last time was assault and horrifically wrong.

Takes a lot of guts to risk the judgement that you only get reported if there's something you've done to deserve it and admit that it happened - but since I started telling people what happened (although one set of grandparents will never know it did so) I keep finding other people who know others its happened to (one of our local hospitals seems to use it as a patient cooperation insurance policy) - but it's an awful thing to admit to, that feeling you did or said something to cause the child you hadn't even fully given birth to to be put at risk of being taken away and I can understand why people don't want to lay that bare. It destroyed utterly my mental health and I've never recovered - I have an anxiety disorder and for months I had zero quality of life - I just existed back in that bubble of being yelled at by staff, and then that stomach-churning moment they told me they'd rang SS on me.

trustissues75 Wed 27-Mar-13 10:19:55

Thank you for sharing that, Miaow. And congrats on the new arrival!!! And I'm so glad you didn't have a repeat experience. I hope, that some time in the future, this new experience and affirmation from other health professionals that you were, indeed, horrifically assaulted, will give you the wind in your sails to make those that treated you in such an inhumane and degrading manner will pay.

MNHQ - this is a great first step - but we're often powerless in the actual situation - there needs to be a change in attitude within the NHS itself - I myself have already encountered the attitude of whether or not the NHS will "allow" me to give birth at home. Allow? This is the attitude pregnant women are often up against; we are infantilised. It is wrong. A HCP isn't \god and should not be allowed to act as God.

TheDetective Wed 27-Mar-13 17:19:42

I always re-iterate, there is no such thing as allow. We are free women, with free choices. No one can take that away from us.

I often encounter surprise when I tell people my baby was born 20 days after the EDD. 'I didn't think they let you go that far'. I just say 'well, no one can force you to be induced'. It often makes them think, and replies tend to be, well yes, you can't be made to do anything I suppose.

I can see it makes people stop and think, and remember that it is always up to them when it comes to decisions about their own body.

knittedflower Wed 27-Mar-13 20:25:58

miaow - congratulations on your second baby thanks and thank goodness you had a much better experience of the second hospital. I hope you are able to finally move on from your terrible first birth.

I am a supervisor of midwives and part of my role is to support women who are having difficulty in obtaining care choices. Every area in the country has a supervisor of midwives who is on call 24 hours a day who can and should support you if you feel that you are being bullied or coerced in any way in to any care choices that you do not wish to have. You can usually contact them through the local hospital switch board, they can be phoned by anyone, partner, yourself or your midwife.

a bit about Supervisors of midwives

TheDetective Wed 27-Mar-13 21:54:38

Knitted - I had contact with SOM's as a pregnant woman.

I was very saddened to find that I was not supported.

I have taken this up with the Trust involved.

What I would like to add, is that there is more than one SOM, so if you are not being supported from one, do not give up. Speak to another SOM.

nailak Sat 30-Mar-13 19:00:05

Birthrights, would you be interested in partnering with Maternity Liason Committees and providing training sessions to mothers support groups (meetings of the mothers who make up MSLCs) if so get in touch. I have alsi emailes you at your info address.

I know Tower Hamlets MSLC is planning spot checks by volunteer mothers on to post natal wards, to ask mothers how they were treated and support them in any action that needs to be taken.

As a student midwife I'm all for giving women informed choice. I've just finished my first placement (community) and was quite upset at some of the stories of the postnatal women told about their treatment whilst labouring in hospital.

The coercion to submit to intervention was widespread. Obviously in some cases the intervention was medically indicated but it seems very rarely was communication with the women and their partners good. There was a lot of 'you/we need to' as opposed to 'we suggest because'.

Every woman should be aware of their rights and be treated as a capable adult.

BoyMeetsWorld Sun 31-Mar-13 10:08:52

Miaow - your post actually made me cry. I haven't read your story before and cannot believe they did that to you - and others by the sounds of it. So glad you had a better experience this time, I'll definitely be more 'stubborn' (or sure of myself) when I have dc2

torncanvas Sun 31-Mar-13 20:41:54

I think this is a good thing but I do think that women are so obsessed and fixated by their rights in birth that they sometimes forget about their responsibilities - so often you hear women banging on about getting the birth THEY want rather than the birth that is safest for their baby. I say that as someone who has had 4 births, good and bad.

The main point about birth is that the baby is born safely. It is very, very, important too that the mother has a good experience, but the baby's safety comes first, and I read so much on mumsnet about women putting their experience before what is safest. Birth is not a lifestyle choice. Yes, pregnant women are adults, but sometimes they don't make the best choices - I've read about women on here who have been advised NOT to have a home birth for example, for good reason, but who have gone ahead and done it anyway because it is their RIGHT. Another one cheerily said that after 42 weeks your risk of stillbirth doubles, but it's still very small so she wasn't going to let the nasty bullying doctors induce her. I have experienced stillbirth and cannot understand how anyone could be so flippant. And another who said that her baby would decide when to be born, so she wouldn't be induced...... Please grow up, honestly. Yet another who refused all scans in pregnancy as she 'just knew' her baby was fine....

Women often seem quite proud of the fact they have gone against advice, despite the fact that luck and luck alone has ensured a happy outcome and they have risked their baby's safety. Why anyone would risk their baby's safety is beyond me. It makes me very angry. And thank God, it usually turns out fine, but the emphasis does seem to be on the mother's experience, not her baby's safety.

Women need to remember this is not their birth. They've had their birth. This is their baby's birth. It's not just about their rights.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sun 31-Mar-13 21:27:31

I have to disagree with you, canvas. And so does the law: it is entirely about the mother's rights. Period. If one starts on the slippery slope of the mothers' rights being subjugated by the babys' rights you invite in all sorts of possibilities....how would you feel if you were sectioned because you disagreed with a Dr.'s opinion and your body violated against your will? There are very few women who would put their baby's safety below their personal birth needs...but those that do have that right and no-one has any right to take that from them because of personal opinion.

Also, not sure where the 42 weeker got her info from...but the info I have actually indicates that the risk of stillbirth is highest at 40 weeks...go figure....

MiaowTheCat Sun 31-Mar-13 21:48:19

And here we go...

My baby deserved to have a mother not so traumatised and devastated by the experience that she spent the first months of her life sobbing, shaking and having blazing rows with her husband because she simply just couldn't deal with how utterly violated and assaulted she felt. She deserved, she had the right to a sane mother - not one so utterly and totally terrified social services would be back for her child that she was scared to love her, and then so scared of losing the child she loved that she cried herself to sleep every single night for 11 months - either from reliving the birth (I can relive every single moment of it all in crystal clarity) or having nightmares about the social services set on her by the hospital.

ALL I wanted was not to be left at risk of permanent SPD damage - to not be left in a position where I was housebound and barely able to walk with a newborn to care for - I didn't want fancy whale music, I didn't want to trailblaze for birth options beyond the realm of the commonly accepted - I simply didn't want them to shove my legs in stirrups so far apart that my knackered childhood Barbie dolls would wince at the prospect and wreck my pelvis... the forceps thing was secondary to that.

Yet still we get the same "oooh it's all about the baby" brigade wanting to belittle anyone who gets forced into things and just totally reduce women TO that inconvenient piece of meat between the doctors and the baby - which is EXACTLY how I was treated... indeed on the post natal ward several times I was told by staff members, "Well, actually we don't care about the mothers at all - we're only interested in the babies"... these staff members are still working on a post natal ward a year later by the way - pray you don't encounter them when you're dripped, stitched and catheterised up to the eyeballs! In that hospital I know of other women who went through what I did - with social services essentially being used as a patient taming tool - like I said - most don't ever dare speak out and admit it happened because of the stigma.

It absolutely, utterly, totally ruined my life. It still replays now (albeit less now I've had DD2 - that birth chased some of the demons away) and the feeling when we left that hospital, the utter hollow, totally shellshocked feeling, the feeling of being violated, bullied, (and I don't use this as a comparison lightly - I HAVE been there to draw the parallel) almost raped... not at all conducive to mental health or bonding or anything. I stammer fairly badly now (which means I can't go back to my old career if I wanted to) - I only ever used to do that before when under incredible pressure. I get flashbacks at the most silly triggers. I don't trust any child health professionals, I don't trust my own GP, I'm scared of any official letters that come through to the parent or guardian of... I live in constant fear that the closed SS case, that will always remain on file, will come back to bite us in the future - I feel incredibly angry that our family, the family we fought for six years to become, has to carry that stigma around with us... because I didn't want the doctors to cause me permanent mobility issues and got scared.

And yes, it makes me incredibly angry when people just push all of that aside and ignore the woman completely to tell them to basically naff off - you have no rights - you're an incubator on legs now, you will take what we want to do with you and you will do so without protest or quibble. I'd not even gone into things as a "demanding" patient - I had no birth plan written, I was fully prepared to roll with whatever happened - but things were so badly mismanaged, and I was so badly treated by staff that everything just snowballed into what it became - and what it became was SO utterly unacceptable that I've never met ANY member of the medical profession who even BEGINS to try to justify it... the universal reaction is to be appalled by it.

The main point about birth is that BOTH the baby and mother come out of it well and safe... that includes the physical AND mental health of the mother.

I didn't matter at all. I'm so massively grateful for the hospital I had DD2 and the staff there for taking the time to treat ME as a patient and not just a lump of flesh. Incidentally - I needed to have a spinal there as well (placenta got stuck again) and they could not have treated my SPD wrecked legs with more care or respect - even when conducting a relatively tricky furtle up into my uterus to play find the placenta (something the previous hospital had done without explanation, acknowledgement and with extreme brutality) and when not splitting my legs to ridiculous amounts was making it trickier for them - they still respected my body and did their utmost to try to prevent any pelvic damage... it was a difference so marked it was like night and day - things were explained, I was asked how I was coping and feeling - rather than just being dragged into theatre and having a succession of strange men shoving things up there James Herriot style - no wonder I felt violated like I did last time (and a new empathy for the cows on All Creatures Great And Small)!

TheDetective Sun 31-Mar-13 22:06:02

Torn I could not agree less with your post.

Echoing what Miaow said, "The main point about birth is that BOTH the baby and mother come out of it well and safe... that includes the physical AND mental health of the mother."

I am one of these people who has gone against 'advice'. Remember, it is just that. Advice. Research can say whatever the hell you like. I've critiqued enough of it to realise a lot of what is quoted as fact, is not fact at all.

I am so saddened to read attitudes like yours to be honest. When I was making my decisions during my pregnancy, the thing which was at the heart of it was the safety of my baby. It just happens that you may think the things I chose were not for his safety. Not being induced was for his safety - it is well known there are risks to induction. Avoiding the cascade of intervention was for his safety. Not mine.

To be honest. I don't know what to say to you. It would probably be a waste of time. I just feel sickened that anyone would think I did what I did for my benefit. Anything that was for my benefit, also directly impacted on my baby. A mum who is mentally or physically damaged after birth has a HUGE negative impact on her baby.

There is far more to it than you are thinking of.

I just thank god we live in a country where we are free to make choices about our own bodies and use our own intelligence in order to make those choices.

nailak Sun 31-Mar-13 22:36:38

canvas my experience is a lot less dramatic than miaows, and less serious, but it still demonstrates the point that medical advice and guidelines is not based on the individual circumstances of the patient.

to cut a long story short. I had home birth. baby was under 2.5kg. MW said we had to go to hospital, I said no, she phoned neonatal consult who told her to get me to hospital, i said no. My decision was based on the fact that i know i it is normal for me to have small babies, that asian babies are normally smaller and if growth charts were plotted for only asian babies that my dcs would be within normal range, i was a small baby myself and so on,

after wards the midwife confided in me that she thought i had made the right decision, although she had to advise me to go to hospital due to guidelines.

TheDetective Sun 31-Mar-13 23:10:20

Nailak my birth plan also said the same - I stated that small for dates, or baby under 2.5kg I would not consent to transfer for, unless my baby showed signs of low blood sugar. If otherwise well, I'd be staying at home.

I am perfectly capable of caring for my own baby, far far better than anyone else. I knew how to feed him, when to feed him, and what I was doing. I knew the signs to observe, and would have taken him in if needed.

But yes, as a midwife you would advise to transfer under the Trusts guidelines - but if the mother does not wish to, that is her choice. End of. You just have to ensure you have fulfilled what is required of you in term of discussion with the mother, informing medical colleagues, and documenting the above.

Flisspaps Mon 01-Apr-13 07:29:27

torn some of us so 'fixated' by our rights in pregnancy, labour and birth because those caring for us so often forget. Many women aren't even aware they have rights. To suggest that women who exercise their rights do so without any regard to the responsibility they personally have to their child is, frankly, a ridiculous notion.

I went to 40+15 in my first pregnancy.
I regret consenting to induction at that point and wish I'd have waited for spontaneous labour - physically I was a mess post-birth (several issues all if which are increased in likelihood through induction) and struggled massively to bond and BF. Looking back, I probably had PND caused by the birth.

I planned a high risk home birth for my second - with a lot of information and help from the MWs - and I'm bloody glad I did.

In both cases I made my choices based on what I believed to be best for me and my babies.

EauRouge Mon 01-Apr-13 13:04:44

I hope this is given to the MWs too. I was well aware of my rights but was bullied by MWs into having checks I didn't want during labour. There was no reason to think anything was wrong, everything was progressing well but they wouldn't listen to me. When I eventually found the confidence to make a complaint I was fobbed off because my labour notes were basically a work of fiction. It's put me off having another child.

Thanks for working with Birthrights, MNHQ, hopefully this will help to improve things for mothers in the future.

RealityQuake Tue 02-Apr-13 12:37:27

It's on the BirthRights website, but I think the complaints procedure should be on the factsheet alongside reassurance that making a complaint won't be on records or affect future care (I know a few women who feared to complain in case it caused them to be treated differently/worse by medical staff in the future).

Also information on when one can and how to change midwives if there is a need. Having the right, supportive, health care professionals is so important and most I know don't even know they may be able to do so.

PeaceAndHope Sun 26-May-13 03:57:14

Oh god, I am horrified at some of these stories.

Can they actually call social services if a woman refuses to consent to treatment?

MiaowTheCat Sat 01-Jun-13 15:36:36

I really didn't believe those things happened, and how utterly awfully you could be treated till it happened to me. Even now it still doesn't seem real that they could do that to a person and how badly they violated every single aspect of my life and person with how they acted - and I panic every time someone wants to pop into a quiet room "for a quick chat" - since that's how they described things when they hauled me into that room for what was much more of an interview/interrogation than a chat.

It's awful that they did it to me, and when I had my second - the staff at the (different) hospital were horrified at hearing what had gone on because I was understandably terrified of them all (indeed my birth plan started with "For reasons in the past, I am very scared and distrustful of you and I apologise in advance for this" and it was only when one of the midwives commented that, "You could have them done for assault for doing that without your consent" that I really began to shift mentally from feeling like I'd caused it and the life-shattering guilt I'd carried around that I had done something to put my precious little girl at risk, to realising that what had gone wrong was so fucking wrong it was out the far side of wrongness. I don't think I'll ever feel strong enough to complain directly - the most that has happened is that the specialist midwife who seems to exist to talk traumatised/tokophobic women out of having c-sections was also appalled by what I was saying when discussing it all prior to having DD2 (diff hospital but same NHS trust) and was going to pass the case up to the head midwifery bod as part of her own professional whistleblowing thingees.

Like I say - it's only the reaction of other midwives (it was primarily the doctors behaving appallingly though) that's making me realise more and more how fucked up things were that I went through. Indeed the midwives for DD2's birth encouraged me to assert myself and find my voice to express my wishes - even when it was going to make things so much harder for themselves - and I'm massively grateful to them (and to DD2 for deigning to enter the world in a more cooperative - and more spectacular - fashion than her big sister) for doing so.

RedToothBrush Thu 22-Aug-13 18:29:01

If anyone hasn't seen this, it might be of interest to you.

Birthright.org have issued a response to the CQC consultation on maternity. The short version is here

The more in depth response is here. Its definitely worth a read if you are interesting in this subject as it covers all aspects of maternity and choice/dignity/respect.

KangarooKaz Wed 02-Oct-13 22:38:35

I think the guidance is helpful and I would add that I think it needs to be expanded and then promoted as available to women at antental appointments though I suspect the potential for lots of informed and more demanding women might be a challenge for the current system.

I wonder if my story so far is helpful to share. I've been advised I should deliver by week 39 (and I accept this advice - i'm healthy but I am just over 40 and there is a risk of still birth post week 39 for us oldies). Here is what has happened to me.

When I started to research birth options it became apparent to me that it is important to understand my rights but also the difference between routine generally applied intervention and life saving medical opinion. Initially I researched hypnobirthing, homebirthing,birthing pool, and pain relief options to support me in spontaneous labour should it happen pre week 39.

I asked at an antental appointment if I could consider a water / home birth with hypnobirthing as my first preference. I was told by a registrar that I would need to deliver in hospital and have continuous monitoring. I felt disappointed but took it and then asked could I deliver in the MLU and was told that that I could not go to the MLU because I am over 40 and considered high risk. I was told that I would likely bleed heavily and my baby or I could die ( and I was told like that). I decided to talk to more senior personnel as I am in good health and only just over 40 and gained agreement that I could go to the MLU and had to arrange this with my consultant and the head of the MLU and get this in writing. I also gained agreement that I would not be bed bound and continuously monitored routinely that I would be listened in to on a regular basis and could wear a cordless monitor if it came to that. I also gained agreement that if I was unable to birth on the MLU for any reason (they were busy or because of my situation) that I would be able to have midwife led care on the consultant led unit meaning that rather than having a trail of DRs doing their rounds and coming in on a regular basis that the people in the delivery room would be kept to a minimum and the midwife would be responsible for updating the DRs outside the delivery room.

Had I not probed and asked more questions I would likely have spent the last months dreading a delivery where I would potentially not be mobile and where I was being continuously monitored.

Next I looked at what would happen if I did not spontaneously labour. After having spoken to many friends, talked to the midwives etc and read lots such as on mumsnet I concluded that for me induction was an option for me BUT only with a 24 hour pessary ( first stage on induction). I decided that if this did not work ( bearing in mind at week 39 my baby might not be planning to come for another 3 weeks) that my preference would be to go straight to C section rather than enter a drawn out labour ultimately involving a syntocinin drip, epidural, forceps and emergency c section. I know I cannot plan the future but this has happened to many people I know and I feel it will be distressing for baby and me and its just not the start I want.

In my NHS trust I found that the 24 hour pessary has to be given on an inpatient basis whereas in many other trusts they let you go home. Again because I am just over 40 I have been told that even if they did let people go home they would not let me go home because of that. Now don't get me wrong. I am really pleased to be looked after but when you are given the pessary procedure is that you are monitored for 30 minutes and again after 12 hours and then 24 hours so I question why I need to remain in hospital if all is OK at each stage. Having questioned this I have been told if I don't stay in they won't give it to me. Had I not asked questions here and been naughty I could have gone in and had the pessary and then discharged myself and gone home anyway and come back for the checks but I felt this was disrespectful to the medical staff who would have to deal with the fall out of me leaving. I have no desire to disrespect medical staff.

So I have decided that if I am going to have the pessary I want to be as confident as I can be that the chances of my body reacting to it are favourable in that my cervix has softened before I have it. If my cervix has not softened pre-pessary the likelihood of a drawn out delivery with further intervention is more probable and I don't want that and therefore my view is to default to c section.

In gaining agreement to this plan which I finally have I had to go through more conversations under the NICE guidelines where I felt pressure to do induction regardless and also to agree to forceps delivery instead of c section should there be an emergency and I am going through a normal birth. However now I feel happier that I have in writing a plan I can refer to that has been agreed by a number of consultants and will avoid pressure in labour to take interventions I disagree to without strong reason arising at the time.

I do put my baby first, that's why I have agreed to 39 weeks, to deliver in hospital and to follow emergency advice but I have also been keen to ensure that I am healthy of mind through the process to have a safe place where I feel I can labour, where I can be unobserved, not pressured when I am in delivery with pre agreed options to hopefully deliver a healthy happy baby.

I feel quite exhausted by this and wonder how the system would cope with more women like me.

Finally I have to say that all of the midwives I have encountered have really been supportive of me, my questions and my plans all along and this has helped me to have the confidence to get to where I am today.

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