Mumsnet Talk

I don't know, lovely. It's hard to sit back and not help - human nature is (normally) to dig deep when others need help.

i agree... it would also let us all moan to our hearts content and wallow in our communal misery without the inference that anyone HAS to do something about it...

I don't want to live in a 'virtual' world where people are prevented from helping others.

It's not right. Instead we all need to develop a thicker skin and ignore the detractors or wankers who PM just to insult.

I'm not a fan of prosecuting people for writing malicious things on Facebook - whatever happened to delete and ignore? Never give arseholes headspace.

There are enough fabulous people on mumsnet to ignore the very small amount of people who will be tossers - in fact I'm constantly surprised how few arseholes there are on mumsnet.

Yes you can. But I hope that you are told the answer is NO we wont ban it.

Yes, there's some crap going on aimed at Giraffes right now (and misdee and others in the past) but it's generally a few nasty people and they should never be allowed to spoil it for others.

Without the 'whip around' for Aillidh/Expat/Giraffes their terrible struggle would have been even worse. They needed help. They used the money to get people where they needed to be, for food, for 'treats' for Aillidh - for all kinds of small things and towards Aillidh's stone and a few days away for her siblings after Aillidh died. A little girl here died - some of us wanted to make her last few months as bearable as possible. Do you not get that? We gave freely, willingly - we are adults, we exerted out free will.

I am sure your post comes from a good place - BUT, I am actually really angry that you have asked this, without thinking about what that money did, how it helped a little bit, to make their lives a little bit easier at that bloody awful time.

Do you really think the bastards who send nasty messages should 'win' here? Really???

bitsofmeworkjustfine I hope that you have never come across any of expats or giraffes threads about Aillidh and that you know not of what you speak. Otherwise your post is probably one of the nastiest I have ever read on MN.

I think people just need to accept that if they give money to people on the internet they have no guarantee that it will be used in the intended manner.

It should also be acceptable to post on any thread and point this out without being accused of being heartless.

As long as the givers freely acknowledge that the "Gin money" may be spent on handbags rather than gin, nobody can come along and say "don't give money to her".

No we shouldn't ban them. Lots of people gave money to help a little girl and her family. A little girl who was dying.

I whole heartedly agree with everything Chipping said.

If some sad wierd people have nothing better to do than berate a poor woman who had to watch a girl she loved die then they need to grow the fuck up.

Hear hear expat.

Perhap we should ban the Mumsnet blankets as well.

Maybe we should try to ban posters from meeting up in case they meet John the Trucker. Mumsnet secret Santa a huge no no

Or perhaps we should accept that we are grown ups who can make up our own minds and judgement.

I am in my 40s. I have been through plenty in my life time and I seriously object to people who want to try to protect me from myself.

I would rather risk be "fleeced" of a fiver (not that I think for one second I have been) than have a heart of stone.

giraffes if you see this - I hope you get enough money to put yourself up in a 6 star hotel, have a massge and a lovely meal - that's what people would like for you.

I am sick of people trying to turn this place into a nanny state - we are not children.

perhaps if mn hq banned people when they make really nasty pm's it would help.(maybe they already do) rather than punishing the victim of such nastiness.

But you can't tar every thread of this nature with the same whopping-great brush.

Giraffes and expats threads are not the same as A.N.Other poster moaning about their washing machine breaking.

So actually I think if you post about money safety/internet/blah blah on a cast-iron 100% genuine thread such as theirs, then you are being heartless.

In my opinion.

It cannot be argued that there are posters that send begging threads, sadly it happens.
But anyone who knew just a tiny bit of Giraffe's story understandably wanted to help her.
I'm so angry that some coward sent her a pm without even having the guts to name herself.
So, no, of course not. We should never ban people who want or are able to help.

Has something happened to prompt this thread?

Hec - giraffes threads

No to banning.

We are adults. We make our own choices. No-one who has ever donated to a poster has done so because a gun was held to their head.

Anyone willing to give money should have the sense to not give more than they could 'afford' to lose. If someone gave their last £10 to a poster they later discovered wasn't genuine then that is their own fault.

I have been on threads here before when I have thought "hold up, something isn't right here" and a little bit of searching/googling has born fruit - so I haven't donated.

But if I still did - that's my lookout. Once the money has left my account it is no longer mine - and the recipient can use it however they need.

I think the problem lies entirely with the twats who think they have the right to get snippy about it, tbh.

They should stick their noses elsewhere and realise that MNers can think for themselves. Some poster seem to have some kind of "God complex" regarding MN and it's ways.

thatbastard do you not get that people want to be able to make up their own minds?

We aren't 5 you know.

So many threads this morning about fivers, travelling from scotland etc, all sad really when you know a child died. It would be best to not do money begging threads, I suspect they won't be banned.

As an aside there are loads of deserving stories and lots of people could do with help, a lot of families needs are ignored, how about rather than giving all to one family, hook up with a local family to you with that is in need and give them a break and a bit of fun?

I don't think OP means we're 5. Not that she needs me to defend her

"I just think that the site is too big and too anymous nowadays (and probably too jaded) for anyone to just ask for stuff without people getting snippy about it."

It's not their place to get "snippy" it's the place of the person who has chosen to donate.

I don't agree with a ban.

Essentially it boils down to blaming the victims of the bullying. "Only have official appeals so that the bullies aren't tempted to be nasty to you."

Far better to deal with the bullies than to put barriers up between would-be donors and the people they would like to help.

<passes crate of gin>

agree completely with Chipping.

seeing this is a site for adults why not let people make up their own minds?
I think it would be a shame to stop kind hearted people helping others.
yes sometimes people will be scammed, but that is rare, but as long as you never give what you can't afford, you are ok.
a lot of people want to help Expat and her family, what is wrong with that.
I think it would be better to concentrate on stopping people being allowed to send nasty pm's.

I think a blanket ban is a really really bad idea.

I think it's got to be borne in mind that no-one should ever give more than they can afford to spare (so no <wail> but I sent that hairy handed trucker my gas bill money) and accept that it will be spent by the recipient as they see fit.

I've donated money to various causes on here and was pleased to do so. I'd be sorry to think that someone I know, even only because I spend too long lurking on here and recognise their username, was in dire financial straits due to shitty bad luck and even a couple of quid from me would help. If a hundred posters donate £2 that they won't miss to someone who really needs it, that person then has £200 to spend on petrol, ready meals because hosptial food is rank, naice ham & fruit shoots or whatever they need to get them through. If someone receives enough - there are a LOT of generous people on here - that they're able to buy non-essential items that just make life a little more bearable, then that's just extraordinary and wonderful and how life should be.

I've found it now, pinot, thanks. Awful. Giraffes must feel like shit.

I know Pinot but I am really cross. I was the first person TK suggest giving money to giraffe - she didn't ask for it - but I have read through the year of her help for expat - if she had posted she needed a break I'd have wanted to help.

Mumsnet helps so many in black times - sometimes it is heart warming when you think the world is black, to read how Ine person has supported another.

And this attitude - where we constantly seem to be protected from the consequences of our own actions - it drives me insane.

I just think that the site is too big and too anymous nowadays (and probably too jaded) for anyone to just ask for stuff without people getting snippy about it.

AFAIK no-one connected to Aillidh in RL asked for anything. It all came from people hearing about her terrible illness and wanting to help, putting themselves forward voluntarily. Those who were unable to offer practical help donated money. And I'm glad for it.

I've been here forever - this comes up with monotonous regularity over the years.

When I was in crisis - 2 mumsnetters came long distances to visit me and help me - I had met them once before - I have never been so touched - they restored my faith in humanity.

Leave u's try to help others in whatever small ways we can - it's eases our own pain sometimes.

No don't ban them. So long as you don't give more than you can afford materially or emotionally then wheres the problem. You read a post that touches you and want to help anyway you can. Sure you can't be certain that its always genuine but its your choice. Having given myself i know how good it feels that you may actually have helped someone in need. Nobody is forced to do this.

No. I dont think they should be banned. You know why?...
Because if I chose to donate money to anyone who starts a thread here, and believe me I dont have much cash so I am very careful, then I do it in the clear and obvious knowledge that the person I donate it to can do EXACTLY what they want with it! Gifts shouldnt come with conditions. The people who have attacked Giraffes should be ashamed of themself. But sadly probably won't. and probably didnt donate in the first place

I can see where youre coming from but I dont agree with you

And what about the "i have x does anyone want it/ does anyone have x im in need" type threads? There no way you could vet or moderate or validate all the posters/ donaters/ offerers on those but to ban them all would be very sad and take something away from MN somehow

But thebastard that's still Mumsnet deciding for us.

We are grown women on a self moderating forum.

op I can see your point, and it is hard if you see someone "taking the piss" I have seen this in the past, where imo the poster has used mn as their own charity.
but banning threads would stop people who really need help getting it, that can't be good.
(disclaimer I am talking about something I saw a couple of years ago)

What Chipping said. Every single word of it.

I think the snippy nasty posts/pms are made out of jealousy quite often. Lots of people are struggling with money and must just see the threads and think 'its not fair, why help them and not me?' And become bitter and suspicious. The people complaining ought to really think - would they really want to swap places with giraffes/expat etc for the sake of a few ££. I very much doubt it. No one is forced to donate anything ever. It's easy to close a thread or hide it, as adults we are able to make our own choices and it wouldn't be right to have that choice taken away from us.

I hope whomever has been so vile sending nasty pms feels very guilty this morning.

But you are talking about Ailidh, im sorry but you just ARE.

Because you are talking about a wholesale ban, that would have included a ban on the money raised for Ailidh and family ( and your suggestion that it could have been made an official MN thing is poorly thought out imo, hoiw on earth could Mnhq pick and choose between MNers in need?)

I agree with everything Chipping said.

And also i think its pretty ironic you say 'begging' (ugh) threads ALWAYS go wrong...surely thats because some over-thinker/boson hoiker starTs a thread rather like this one?

I really REALLY needed to let off some steam once, and it was because of a desperate lack of money - it had worn me right down, I was upset and frustrated so I posted about it, just to get it off my chest really.

That was reported as a begging thread (which I can assure you it was NOT)

How do you tell the difference though?

I totally see your point, and i think sometimes people can whip themselves up into a bit of a frenzy.

And i don't like seeing innocuous remarks like bitsofme's reinterpreted as 'the nastiest thing ever ever ever'

I am so glad that people who need it get help and support. And i think there are chancers, but i think people get wise to them, and it's no skin off my nose if some gullibull wants to contribute to MrsChanceyTakeThePiss's annual christmas disaster.

On the whole i think mnhq themselves get the balance about right; i have recently seen a repeat offender get what i presume was a rap on the knuckles after one too many threads 'venting' about money.

It's the mass hysteria i cannot abide, but i suppose they can't really legislate for that beyond talk guidelines.

baby and bathwater

My whingy thread? hmm ok.

And I'm getting quite sick and cross at people equating Giraffe's needing money for a flight to see a child she once nannied for with any appeal for Expat/Ailidh. The one has absolutely fuck all to do with the other.

That is bollocks I gave money to giraffes to see the child she nannied precisely because of what she had already done for expat and ailidh. There is a clear connection in my mind - you can form whatever opinion you like - but don't presume to understand the decision making processes of other posters.

And I'm getting quite sick and cross at people equating Giraffe's needing money for a flight to see a child she once nannied for with any appeal for Expat/Ailidh. The one has absolutely fuck all to do with the other.

<<brain cogs grinding into action>>

I agree with chipping. However op I think you started this with the usual "oh woe is me, its Christmas and the Hoover has broken" threads in mind, am I right? Still think people should donate if they want to, in possession of the knowledge that they actually have no idea who they're giving to or what the money will be used for

I think it would be silly to stop them. Just look at all the people such whip rounds have helped.

It's up to the poster to decide who they are going to donate to.

If you don't know the poster or the back story don't donate. That's how I operate anyway.

I get your point, Bastard, and I think I'm with Artex on this.

No we shouldn't ban them, although as adults we all have to decide who to give to and how much we can give.

I am always reminded of my grandad's philosophy in situations like this - he always said he would prefer to be taken in occasionally than to avoid helping someone in genuine need.

Totally get the point your making op, come sept anyone complaining about being broke or worrying already about Xmas usually gets at least one comment basically saying they are trying to scam the Xmas appeal. In fact there was even a time when I didn't post because I was worried that's what people would think.

Mnhq stance has always been to act with caution (as per everything in tge interent) and to never give away more than you don't mind losing.

The problem is that this particular case is very emotive (and for good reason). The unseen links meant this streched far across mn and people sometimes think they are giving blindly.

I do get where you are coming from but think that it would put an enormous amount of stress on MNHQ to decide which MNetter is sufficiently in need to have an official appeal started.

It is very much part of MN, that when something dreadful happens, our thoughts turn to 'What can I do? How can we, as a community, help?'.

This comes from a mixture of counting one's blessings, sorrow and empathy for the person affected and sheer helplessness because I can't fucking cure cancer, no matter how much money I donate, or how many blankets I knit.

It is support for the person, rage at circumstances and making us feel better for having helped in a tiny way.

Everyone who donates to a person or a cause must decide for themselves if they think it is the right thing to do, and we should all be aware that there are people who would take advantage of our good natures.

In my years of MNetting, I have probably donated a couple of hundred pounds to charities, funds, personal appeals (made by friends of the needy), blanket wool, Xmas Appeal etc. Only once has the person been subsequently revealed to be on the make.

I think that is a risk worth taking.

I do see where you're coming from Bastard, but I don't agree.

We are all adults, we do as we see fit. If people get sucked into scams then more fool them. I'd rather that than someone genuinely in need go without because we're not allowed to use MN to help - not everyone has FB and I don't know the mobile numbers of many other MNers. If someone wants to start a thread asking for help for someone else then I fail to see how that can be seen as a begging thread anyway. If there are any suspicions then threads can be reported and MNHQ can investigate.

I'd also rather that MNHQ didn't get to decide which causes were worthy enough. I prefer to make that decision myself. There have been plenty of threads on here that I haven't got involved with and I'm generally a sucker for a hard luck tale

No, I don't agree let them bitch and moan, I don't care. if someone needs help they should get it. Also I think there should a little more faith in the average MN poster to spot the unworthy. I am the hardest faced cow there is and I think i always tell if someone's trying it on or not. I don't go anywhere near those threads. They are really obvious.

Anyone who has issues with the situation this thread is based on is just a first class arsehole. If this rule was in place, people who really needed it wouldn't have got help and the thought of that makes me want to cry.

I think it's a risk worth taking.

(I always forget to add something)

I would also like to say that I think this is a good discussion to have, and one that we should have regularly.

There are people on MN who are vulnerable to those who would manipulate them, and who do not recognise that there are people who will troll - for money but also for emotional responses.

I have seen at least one thread in the past day or two that made me raise both eyebrows to the sky, where I thought, 'OMG, how ridiculous, how could anyone believe this crap' but people were offering advice, assistance and sharing their own personal stories of abuse.

When posters start using MN, they do not know about trolls. Those of us who have been around a while have seen them come and go, and are more likely to recognise them (and report to MNHQ).

It is GOOD to have this issue raised, and raised often so that new posters get a heads up and don't get taken in.

For me, losing some money is the least of my worries. I get more upset when posters share obviously traumatic and very personal stories to support an emotional troll.

I can see op that you were talking about moaning threads in general.
I felt the same when reading the comments in the secret Santa appeal there was lots of comments saying
I would love to donate but I can't this year as I can only afford to give coal to my children as presents and we are having to eat the cat for Christmas dinner
I must admit I stopped reading anymore and it put me off the whole thing so I ignored it, because of those comments

I think each thread should be taken on its own merit. And since Giraffe's thread was clearly NOT a "begging" thread, it shouldn't even be relevant to this - and yet somehow it is.

It really does piss me off that some people can't allow others to do something nice for someone who really deserves it without whinging about it.

I get where you're coming from OP, and it makes me uncomfortable that a number of women on mn are clearly in levels of distress - but because they are not "well known" or "notorious" on other streams of social media - their plight is ignored.

But mnhq are not the administrators of a charity.

The begging is distasteful - and we all know that you can beg without being quite so blatent!

I don't know.

There was one the other week saying has anyone got anything in a certain child's size, as my son is growing and I've got no money...people queued up to suggest sending stuff they had.

It wasn't a well known poster.

They even offered to pay for postage - surely it'd have been easier and cheaper to buy stuff from a local boot sale or charity shop, not ask people on the net to send things? I mean kids' clothes are ten a penny if you go in a charity shop.

Back to the point, but I tend to separate RL from MN nowadays. I've had some good experiences involving doing favours for people and vice versa - always repaid with gifts or such, it was a bit uncomfortable at times, feeling like someone is helping you out and you're not sure WHY they would want to. But it was Ok thankfully. (someone collected and posted a buggy to me, I took a buggy to someone else on the train...good fun!)

But when it comes to money, or 'having a bad time' and people wanting to donate actual hard cash - well I can see some people are FINE with that and I have no problem with it if so.
But for me, this place is about talking, not action - it's about letting off steam, about having someone say, Yes, I get you - it's about friendliness and understanding.
I don't want money or things from the people here.

I declined to receive anything after being nominated for the Christmas appeal a while back (not this year) as it felt like it crossed a line, it wasn't necessary (though very kind of whoever nominated - I was polite and said to pass on my thanks)

Do you see what I mean, we're here for support, for mutual hand holding - I don't really understand why money HAS to come into it.

And absolutely no offence intended to those who feel differently. It's just my view.

I think Bastard was making the point that SOMEONE else started asking for money for Giraffes, not Giraffes herself, and then Giraffes was attacked for begging - a situation not of her own making, and also for misusing funds previously sent - where we are entering seriously dodgy territory. No way should Giraffes have to face these sorts of accusations.

I don't think money should play a place here either - it is an internet chat board. I too think it would be better, in similar cases to that of Expat and Aillidh that MN sanction an official collection.

Tricky. The problem with having official donation threads is that would mean MNHQ is effectively endorsing them, and I can imagine that there would be ramifications (legal? ethical?) with that.

Bah, that took me so long to phrase properly that I've x-posted with HelenMN, and she's obviously said it much better than me.

Oh for goodness sake. We are all adults and can make decisions as to weather to donate our money or time.
If you don't want to donate, don't!
If your concerned someone is a troll, report it!
I on the other hand feel I would rather give a few pounds now and then to 3 people and would be happy if one of them was genuine.

I should say in most cases where money is collected in large amounts, they are long standing posters and IME they have all been in national papers, therefore backing up proof they are truthful and in need of help. Help I'm happy to give.

Oh I killed this thread, such a shame

Or, if you don't like threads like that (and you'll be able to tell by the title), don't click it. If you know they get you riled, or if you are an old-skool MNer prone to cynicism and easily irritated, don't look at those threads. Stick to other bits of the board.

I get irritated at many things, but it's entirely my choice where to click and what to read.

I agree with everything chipping said!

I am running out of gin
<hopeful>

BIWI that's cos of last nights experiments ;)

I remember chipping in to help Trinity Rhino pay her fuel bill when she was suddenly bereaved, many years ago. This kind of thing is what keeps our faith in human nature alive.

Perhaps there should be an informal rule that no one starts threads to raise money (or do anything else) for another MNer without checking with the other MNer first. I'd be really very upset if that happened to me. I'm guessing that a lot of people do check first, but perhaps some don't.

I want to contribute.
I want to send wool, money, presents, chocolate, PomBears, flowers, gin, jewellery, tiaras.
I want to do it to help someone who needs it, but also because it makes me happy to do so.

I don't want you, or MNHQ or anyone else to stop me doing a kind thing.

The miniscule chance that somebody might not be all they seem is a chance I am prepared to take. I trust my judgement and would rather make a mistake in favour of a scammer than be prevented from making someone's life a little easier.

We are a community, and a community helps those in need.

Trin got a right flaming at some point as well, over the same sort of issue I think. Poor thing.

Oaty the problem is very few would agree to this as we are all proud and don't like to have to depend on others.

Pinot
I agree with that, but at the same time there needs to be awareness, particularly among new MNetters, that while many times it is a genuine case, there are chancers who will try it on.

There are people who are naive about the ways of trolls and we should make them aware of the issues.

Agree with Norks

I don't understand why anyone can object to one human being helping another. I expect if we all lived close to each other and disaster happened we would be round helping each other out with practical things. We can't do that, so sending money is a good substitute.

I feel so sorry.

I started the thread for giraffes. I'm her rl friend (I'm also friends with expat and many other local MN people).

I'm now wishing I hadn't. I was trying to help, I'm aware of just hoow much she did for aillidh and her family.

She shouldn't get any stick for this. Maybe I should!

MmeL, I disagree (respectfully!) As Helen has said, HQ now always comment on such threads, I think the informative angle is well covered. No need for cynical snippy comments from certain quarters.

weegie, you shouldn't. Don't be a daftie. <manly punch on shoulder>

Oh, yes, lisad, now that you point it out I can see that it would put people in a very difficult position if they were asked first, before a thread was started in support of them. Hmm. Rock and a hard place. I suppose different individuals would feel very differently about a thread started for them without their permission. Some would see it as a blessing, others as a source of awful difficulties and intrusion.

I think that things should stay just as they are.

For the people who use it, MN doesn't necessarily feel like the corporate entity that it is in reality.

It is to some extent a community of friends.
For some it is a first resort. For others, it is a last resort. People come and go in their thousands, and some name change and take the piss.

But if disaster were to strike tomorrow, I'd have very few people in RL that I could thrash things out with in the way that I might on here.

If amongst the thousands of people on here, one took it upon themselves to do for me what I could not (for whatever reason) do for myself, then I think that should be allowed.

I'd like, in turn , to be able to do my bit in what ever way I see fit. If I come across someone here whose distress I can alleviate (even a little) buy virtue of donating small change, then it is my perogative to do so.

I wouldn't like to think that decisions on who was deemed 'worthy' were being made for me. What if some hapless person fell through the gaps?

People are funny, and ridiculous, and vulnerable, and kind. For the most part, they know their own minds. They don't generally need protecting from themselves.

And MNers have a very low tolerance for bullshitting. I mean, if all else fails, there's always Hully.

Thanks HelenMumsnet - for posting and for not changing MN policy on this.

Ok then I'm starting the "weegie posh vodka fund"

my point..... was that i read every story and want to help..... Some people are just having a moan, some are in need.... how am i supposed to tell the difference?

Oh, very worthy!!

(sadly my medication means I can't drink much . But i can dream!)

i've never read anything about anyone dying!!!

WeegieMum Don't you dare feel bad for doing a good thing, just don't you dare! Do not let the miserable few upset you or make you feel like you have done the wrong thing. You did (are doing) a very kind thing - Giraffes is on the bones of her bum right now and if a few people sending a few quid means she can go and see that little girl, then it's absolutely fabulous and if it means there's a bit left over so she can stay in a hotel (if she wants to) or buy some food or whatever, then even better. People want to help, enough people know her IRL to know she's more than 'on the level' FGS.

bitsofmeworkjustfine As I said, if you haven't read the threads about Aillidh (or Cup or Trin or Misdee etc) then I can understand your POV until you know differently. Hopefully now you can see why banning these threads is a terrible idea?!

I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt in my first post but after her comment And I'm getting quite sick and cross at people equating Giraffe's needing money for a flight to see a child she once nannied for with any appeal for Expat/Ailidh. The one has absolutely fuck all to do with the other Sadly it appears I was being too generous

I'm happy to donate to things when I think it appropriate. I've given to various things, including the odd charitable thing that a poster's child was doing. It makes me happier to be able to help in a small way, I like the connection, and I would be sad for mumsnet to get so corporate that we couldn't help each other out financially sometimes. So no, I don't want a blanket ban.

No its not that, people have been very generous on here to me personally.

I feel that i need to reach out to help others too, but i'm not in a situation to be able to do that.

but sometime hearing all about someones plight makes it your responsbility to do something about it, but i'm not in a position to.

therefore if it were banned, it couldnt be my responsiblity could it?

Perhaps it would be be better to have a CAN YOU HELP ME thread, then people who wanted to take on that responiblity could

The blanketeers are awesome though aren't they ? The best thing about Mumsnet I reckon

And I think the Christmas Appeal to give gifts to those who might need or appreciate them was started by a MNer and only taken over by MNHQ when it became so massive and they decided to help out

I do have some sympathy with your idea OP - as I like a good moan eg. about affording Christmas etc. without having to worry that it sounds like I'm begging - but on the whole I'd agree with the "we're all adults and surely we can decide whether to make a small contribution to a good cause with no harm done" brigade

If you've had some strong replies OP I think it's just the timing.

Peace and goodwill to all this Christmas season (well nearly)

I don't think they should be banned. We are all adults and we should be able to decide for ourselves.

That said, I do think that some posters take the piss. There are posters who frequently post they only have tuppence to feed their kids because there is a "y in the day", "the bank has fucked up", "there's an r in the month", or whatever, and when they are called on it they get the thread deleted. I think that should be stopped. New posters, or infrequent posters, should be able to search to double check before donating if they feel the need and by deleting threads this option is taken away from them.

But, like others have said, only donate what you can afford, and once you have donated you have no say in what the money is used for.

Oaty but that's the joy of MN, we know each other well enough to know if a thread of help would be seen as a bad thing by friend in need.

Personally I don't donate to every cause, and will say I wasn't around much for TR stuff and didn't donate as didn't feel I needed to. I of course donated my time and money to my wonderful big sister misdee <waves, and of course happily help expat and G as its something ode to our family.
Like any charity donations, you give to causes and people that touch you, those that you want to help. There's not a ban on asking for money from charity's on TV for fear people might get upset.

If you look at all the bug giving threads there has always always been another few MN who have met or know them in real life, who know others. We aren't taking people at what they say, we are a little more clued up than that

I'm glad MN has seen sense on this.

I agree with MonthlyName especially about the Christmas appeal and comments from posters who say they contributed before but cannot again for whatever reason, is really winds me up.

I thought they were banned tbh.

I really don't mind either way. I veer towards the 'all adults here' pov.

If they are permitted then they all need to be permitted - MNHQ shouldn't be in the incredibly difficult position of deciding who is genuine and who isn't.
Their interference (for want of a better word) should be limited to posting the usual words of caution on every thread that is asking for something and leaving it.
Or, they don't allow threads asking for anything. Ever, no matter who is asking.

I think that MN has become a place now where people daren't moan about being skint in case they are accused of begging.

bitsofmeworkjustfine

but sometime hearing all about someones plight makes it your responsbility to do something about it, but i'm not in a position to

It doesn't make it your (financial) responsibility at all. It gives people an opportunity to help out (financially) if they can. We can't all, always help out (financially). I do when I can (and want to) and I don't when I can't (or don't think it's genuine or actually needed). I know it's hard when you can't if you want to. I've only donated small amounts, I would dearly love to be able to do more, but I just cannot afford to right now.

You can help everyone one out, it doesn't have to be financial, it can simply be a kind word.

ThatBastardSanta

I do resent the implication that I am disgusting and heartless

I didn't imply that at all.

I disagree with you, but I certainly don't think you are disgusting or heartless.

I can say that Giraffes utterly adores the children she nannies for. I haven't met the child who is currently ill, but I have met the children she nannies for now, several times, and it's clear just how much she loves them and they love her.
She has a way with children I've never seen, my DD asks her to move to our town every time we see her, and loves spending time with her.
I swear DD likes her more than me!

Something that always comes up on these threads is the suggestion that if people give money, that's their free choice, and they shouldn't give if they're not 100% sure/don't want to risk being duped/can't afford it.

Obviously that is true, but I think it is quite tricky to know (being on the internet and all) whether someone donating is actually quite vulnerable. Maybe they're new, and mistakenly think we all know each other in RL (not that that always means someone is legit). Maybe they're not actually capable of making decisions rationally. Maybe they're not in a good place mentally, or they have disabilities meaning they don't understand as plainly as they need to.

It might be silly but I do worry about people like that, because increasingly I think it's gotten to feel normal to respond to a thread with 'oh, god, I'm so sympathetic ... I will send you some money' '... oh, if she's sending money, I can give you a tenner' ... 'right, the paypal is all set up, everyone who wants is donating a tenner ...'.

It is a very fast moving site and I don't think it is immediately obvious that there's a difference between the Christmas Appeal, or the blankets threads, and any other thread.

But then I do see why MNHQ don't feel comfortable (or able) to 'vet' people and it'd be a pity to lose all the generosity.

I wonder if MNHQ could, routinely, post on any thread that includes people offering to send money with a reminder that this isn't official? Would it perhaps help to drive home the message to anyone new or not very aware of internet safety that there are plenty of ways to be supportive that don't involve giving out money?

Chipping In - that's nice what you said about how you can help everyone out and it doesn't have to be financial it could be a kind word. That's more or less my approach ..... mind you inspired by the pressies for DP's thread I am thinking of getting a nice bottle of gin, some tonic, and limes for DP .....
so if anyone's got money burning holes in their pockets .....

Pinot
It is not just the 'whip round' threads I am talking about. Honestly, I read a thread just this week where within a few posts, people were talking about nipping round with <insert needed items>.

How often have you read, 'Where are you, OP? If I am anywhere close by, I'd be happy to bring you...' ?

MNHQ are only aware of such comments when the thread is reported, and they do come on and say their piece if they are alerted to it, but I think that the rest of us should share some of that responsibility.

I don't think donation threads should be banned, because they are part of MN, but I do think that we need to be aware that some posters have less sense than my 10 yo daughter when it comes to internet safety.

Ahh, yes I get what you mean now

chipping you dont know me and cannot say what i FEEL and what i dont.

dont you EVER wish you could have done more in a situation than comiserate and say 'poor you'

Usual totally agree

See now I see a situation where a LARGE sum of money has been raised for one poster, and one MNetter, who has done nothing wrong, gets accused of impropriety because the large sum of money was sent to HER. She then feels to she has to justify where every penny is. Is it not FAIR to put this level of responsibility on to well meaning posters.

Coming late to this one. I disagree that there should be a ban. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about donating and helping.

As for the idea that it is up to 'wiser' MNetters to advise or warn, that doesn't sit well with me either.

So therefore - I think if MNHQ are happy for on-line whip rounds, they should also take responsibility for them. It's not like these things happen everyday. In the case of Aillidh, or others with sick children, it is not THAT hard to send an email saying "someone would like to do a collection to help you out, is that OK with you?" But these should be the exception, not the rule.

I think that starting a thread to ask for donations (however well intentioned - as it certainly was in this case, and I'm sure usually is) risks creating more drama, and is maybe best avoided except in really major cases like life-threateningly ill children, blanket contributions and suchlike.

I have been on a couple of long-running threads where the OP in question (who both times seemed transparently honest and decent) ran into a specific problem, and a few posters offered to make small contributions via Paypal for something particular (I did so myself once). The OP was grateful and life went on as normal. However, had someone started a specific money-related thread on the OP's behalf then I suspect the drama would have escalated, more money pledged than needed for the specific thing, criticisms raised, and it would have ended up (as here) causing upset and difficulty for the unfortunate well-meaning OP, which is the last thing most people wanted.

Quite Moon-cup. And I don.t get the argument that MNHQ has to make moral judgements on worthiness either, it could be based on a strong message from posters that they want to support xyz.

And has been pointed out, where people are on benefits, large cash donations might cause more problems than they solve. There might be more appropriate ways of giving assistance. I am a bit alarmed by some of the hysterical posts in the last day or 2 where anyone who questions this is demonised

Let's all cave to the nasty, narrow minded bullies then And stop trying to help others because some people can't kept their spiteful thoughts to themselves.

I for one am more than happy with things just the way they are and I don't see how bowing down to the minority helps anyone.

This thread is horrible,if you resent other posters getting help from posters that have chosen to help then just hide the threads,We are all grown ups and make our own judgements and choices online. Threads like this just cause more drama

As an old timer on MN (under various guises) <rocks self in rocking chair and tucks blanket round legs> I have seen a fair few whip rounds. I haven't contributed because I'm bloody poor but every time I've read about one I feel moved, uplifted and part of a real community of real people. It makes MN what it is.

Mners are bloody lovely. They do really lovely things. I would hate the spontaneous generosity of a bunch of random women who have mostly never set eyes on each other to be regulated or banned.

So what if some people are trolls and others are spiteful troll hunters? Lets let the spirit of generosity win over the naysayers.

I've been dipping in and out of this thread all day and can no longer contain myself. I think it's no coincidence that this thread appeared on the same day as others about donations, NOT begging, and if that's the case, it is mean-minded beyond words.

No - not mean spirited. Op was very clear that it is when MONEY comes up here, things MOSTLY go very wrong. Op was concerned about how such threads are viewed, which is not the same thing at all.

No one would wish to support an opportunity for fraudsters.... however fraudsters will sting the local playgroup/school/scouts/church. How many of you have had calls or e-mails designed to get money from you. It happens.

The desire by many to support expat was huge. Stopping that would have been cruel. People wanted to do something. I am also sure that something helped

MN's statement is very accurate - if you cannot afford to give it....don't. If you can afford it and want to take the risk of not knowing where it goes.... well you're an adult. Go ahead

Re the linking of Giraffe/child flight and Aillidh. Of course it's linked. I know giraffe because of Aillidh. This thread is really insensitive.

It may be a useful discussion. Not today though

So not a coincidence then? Just bad timing?

Someone seems to have a made a link between OP and donations sent for Expat's dd - and are now accusing her of being heartless, where as she was quite clear that was not what she meant, rather that we should have an official whip round in such circumstances

X-post with cabbageleaves, same thought though....

And what if certain posters have issues and should be encouraged to seek help for those issues, rather than be funded by MN to go off to a situation where those issues might be compounded.. What about that?

tbh even mentioning the word "begging" in this context is fucking insensitive and hurtful. I don't believe OP was unaware of the emotional effect this would have on the posters concerned. Really, really nasty thing to do

In which context, Greensleeves? Op didn't mention any particular situation.

Sorry Portofino, but I interpreted this thread as being connected to Giraffes and her thread about receiving vicious PMs. In fact I think it would be disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that there is no connection. I just think giraffes ad expat have been through more than enough and didn't need to see this as well.

But I take Olivia's point, and I'm sorry I have waded in and added to the negativity. Just feel so sad and angry about this, especially the wording of the thread title.

<butts out again>

I get where you are coming from Porto - but on a self moderating forum we all have to be allowed to make our own choices.

And I agree that refer to threads as "begging" is an emotive and offensive term - regardless of what thread it refers to

Olivia

I think some of you should go and actually read the OP of this thread.

It is very clear to me that ThatBastardSanta was concerned that people like Giraffes, who through no fault of their own, are being accused of begging/scrounging/abusing generosity of mnetters.

What is mean spirited about being worried that this happens to posters like Giraffes, Misdee and Trinity? And wondering if it were better if whip round type threads should be banned?

I don't agree that they should, but don't turn this into bashing the OP for expressing her opinion.

Maybe mme but some later comments by OP question neutrality.

er, as to the word 'begging' - Santa put it in quotation marks, and went on to talk about threads started by other people to have a whip round.

I understood her point to be that these threads always go pear shaped, even when the person receiving the money has nothing to do with the whip round.

I read the OP and the whole thread. I just disagree with you.

okeydoke, Greensleeves.

Yes - Mme Lindor put it very well. I for one, am concerned that Giraffes has been put in a horrible situation, when she only ever meant well, through others who only mean well, but just never fecking thought.

Isn't trying to ban people from helping - a bit like blaming the victim?

Giraffe has done nothing wrong, someone has bitched about her - so we should never have tried to help in the first place?

Isn't it better to deal with the bitching.

I think the OP was about Giraffe but only to the degree that someone else decided to ask for money on her behalf and SHE ended up getting grief - an unfairness that prompted OP to post. I don't think OP ever criticised Giraffe?

Threads about money almost always end up with some criticisms, which are obviously hurtful if the OP/recipient is in a bad place. I think that's the obvious thrust of this thread. It's not mean to point that out. That said, I do think that it's up to individuals if they want to send things or money to other posters.

It can be tricky in some circumstances though, because sometimes you do see posters regularly giving it the old puss-in-boots eyes, and it's difficult not to find that a bit annoying. That's very different though to when people all rally round a genuine case of somebody who's had a bit more misfortune than just failing to budget properly. I love being part of a community which can genuinely pull together and make a difference. Striking the balance between that, and MN becoming a magnet for cynical hard luck stories is never going to be an easy feat to accomplish.

Izzy
I agree with you. I don't think that donation type threads should be banned.

At the same time, I see where Santa is coming from. Giraffes didn't ask for money, but she was the one attacked via PM, and for some that would be reason enough to stop posting on MN.

It is such a shame when posters such as Giraffes, who have given so much to MN felt unwelcome, or that people were talking about them and bitching about them.

I don't know the answer, other than MNHQ do what they have been doing for some time - make a steadfast rule to post a warning on all threads where posters are arranging donations, whether monetary or gifts.

The posts at 15:50 and 11:50 are well OP seems to have spectacularily missed the point of why so many people want to help giraffes.

Of course the timing of this thread is not a coincidence. Someone started a thread requesting donations for a poster and the poster (who had nothing to do with the thread being started in the first place) received a pasting for it which she neither invited nor could have anticipated. What's wrong with starting a thread suggesting that this is often the outcome in the case of these threads (which it certainly is)?

While I don't think that we should ban donation threads, I do think that donation type situations fall into two categories, those such as expat/misdee/onlyjoking who were regular, well-known posters, known by others in rl etc and going through real life-changing situations, posters who many feel they want to be able to help in some way, and then there are the other types of threads which are often started by the "I can't afford to feed my children/buy a pint of milk/pay for the broadband," threads which are unfortunately often taken on as a cause by the competitive want-to-be-seen-to-be-doing-something types (and yes, there are unfortunately a lot of those on mn).

I think posting about your child's serious illness/bereavement on a website where you are well known is entirely understandable, and that if well-meaning posters wish to collectively do something to give their support that is also entirely understandable and shouldn't be discouraged in any way.

However I think that posting almost competitively about your state of poverty and that you can't afford to feed the cats and are sitting in the library because the broadband isn't connective is a bit crass actually, as is posting about money in general, and I can absolutely see why some of those types of threads get jumped on. We are all in different financial situations, most of us don't feel the need to be competitive about it. And I do believe that those types of threads (and associated whip-rounds) should be discouraged.

I imagine this thread has made giraffes feel a lot worse

Do you think so? I'm actually worried about giraffes taking on so much, and I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to offer emotional support for this recent sad news, rather than financing her rushing to the other end of the country and giving yet more of herself. As I understand it, her health isn't great? I feel uncomfortable discussing her like this and making speculative assumptions though, because she's not here right now. Giraffes, if you do read this, I hope you are taking care of yourself, and not taking on too much.

Wannabe, I agree with what you've just posted.

I've seen loads of "can't feed the cat" type threads that have been totally ignored or where only practical advice is given

It is rare for lots of people to want to throw money into the hat.

This is a thinly disguised thread about a thread.

Also it asks a question in the OP
"Does that make any sense at all, and does anyone agree with me?"

The answer is pretty much - no no-one agrees (or very few), that's the message here and on the other 2 (maybe more) threads going on.

People want to help.

And now I'm off to read my book - instead of feeding my Mumsnet addiction which I def need help for.

How about all begging/suspected begging threads are reported so MNHQ can look at them? They know stuff that us mere mortals don't (posting history etc), so can let the thread stand if they see fit? People on here are lovely and supportive, and I wouldn't want that to change.

I hope you're OK, Giraffes (if you're reading this).

Yes, that is it, Wannabe.

But how do you ban the latter type of thread, while allowing the former?

I hope that this thread hasn't upset Giraffes. I hope that she can see that it is out of concern for her that people are questioning donation type threads. We can see how hurt she was by the horrible accusations.

Can I explain something? The reason I justified all the expat money was because in one nasty pm were the words "YOU ALREADY RECIEVED A LOT OF MONEY BEFORE WHEN A WAS ILL"

Now this implies it was MY money. It never was. All was spent as explained. And remainder transfered to expat.

So you see the 2 things are linked when people are saying I am "ALWAYS BEGGING FOR MONEY" Would love to see examples of these posts!

So either the 2 things are linked or they aren't. The nasty PMer was rather confused about this issue too.

Of course, Giraffes - this is at least part of the point. No one is saying you have done anything. It is just the adhoc, money givng thing on MN leads to SITUATIONS,

I don't think that anybody but that rather mean person thinks that, giraffes. Did you pass on what you knew about them to MNHQ? It does sound very upsetting.

The message doesn't represent the views of all of the people on here, giraffes. It's one person, one person with a warped view of things. I don't know if they are jealous of whatever, naive, a troll, I do know that you mustn't let them get to you.

Giraffes
no one has that you are begging for money, aside from the wanker who sent you that PM. And no one thinks that of you.

I think that people offered you money because we know you, we know you are a lovely, funny and sweet poster who offers support and a helping hand to all. And we know you are having a hard time and we wanted to help. (when I say we, I mean they but I'd have pitched in if I'd seen the thread yesterday).

I would have sent you a fiver even if you hadn't done all that you did for Expat, cause of the above, so it isn't connected in my mind really.

Please don't think this thread is to accuse you of anything. It really isn't.

Yes all passed on thanks.

giraffes I just want to say I'm sorry if my piling in made you feel worse, that's the last thing I want. I think you're a star. You should NOT be having to waste your time explaining yourself to arseholes who should know better (I mean the PM freaks, not anyone on here!)

BOFing they say if you want something done give it to a busy person. But know why got worried but please don't. I know loads of people going though a rough time and try are also the type that are most helpful to others. It's weird, but by helping others, your helping yourself too, it makes the crap easier to swallow
Well I can only speak for myself not for G but can guess she might be the same

As for threads of "I can't feed my cat, pay phone bill ect" I don't think I have ever given any money to those. Have offered to help meal plan, budget plan or pop round with a few needed items but that's my limit, and pretty sure most other posters are the same.

Yes, I see your point.

God I saw this thread and thought it was about me! Self absorbed, I am!!

My threads at the moment are full of woe. Honestly the shit I am going through re money right now so pathetic it hardly seems real. But I have posted looking for advice. Not money. I havent asked, or given paypal details or anything like that. All I have asked for is real life advice. And that is what I got. I would ghate to think that someone thinks my posts are shady and have been reported. How shitty would that be?

I think people are old enough and big enough to look after themselves. Dnt give what you cannot afford, Thats true for money, advice etc.

Oh Giraffes, don't stress yourself worrying about it. This is the internet, which means everyone and anyone can and does join in. There are plenty of people here who know you are genuine, just ignore the people who sign up just to be nasty. Some people get a kick out of it, and if you bite, then that is their sad pathetic reward. Its not worth giving them any thought space over it.

Mordecai - I haven't noticed any of your threads (sorry - but quite often I don't remember the Op's name), but I'm sure you didn't come across that way. The ones who do come across badly are pretty bloody 'obvious' - there are a lot of people asking for advice and getting brilliant advice - don't let this stop you.

I don't think we should ban threads asking for money even if they do cause the odd kerfuffle.
Firstly, no-one has to donate. We are adults with credit cards. Where I work, we occasionally have whip-rounds, usually because someone is leaving or having a baby, but we'd all be pissed off if our boss banned the whip-rounds.

It seems quite obvious this IS about the "fiver" thread. No-one is saying that giraffes going to visit her friends is the same as money being sent for Aillidh.
But... a lot of people here are in awe of giraffes and all she did for Aillidh and expat. She never took any of that money for herself and spent her own time and money on Aillidh.

And what does she want to do now?
Does she want to go to a spa?
Does she want to go on a week's holiday?
Does she want to sit in a drink a bottle of wine a night?
No, she doesn't, she wants to go and see a little girl who has retinoblastoma and who has had her eye removed. A child she nannied for, and cared for and if everything people say about her is true, a child who probably adores her. Because that's the sort of person she is.
And if people can't chip in to make that possible, then what sort of substandard nest of vipers are we?

<has the urge to stand up and shout "here here" in a man,y voice at chipmonkey

Agree with chipmonkey and we are all adults. Noone is forced to give money.

I wish I'd never started the "fiver" thread!

I'm responsible for that.

I also know giraffes (and expat) in real life.

G deserves the help.

In December last year I developed a crippling neurological disability. I cany walk much, my hands, feet and face are numb. After my dh, the first person who took me out (for coffee and chocolate cake) was giraffes. She enjoyed using my shiny new blue badge to park on double yellows!! But she was there for me. I think she's amazing!!

mordecai I hope you are ok. I think you may be close-is to me but I am not sure. I hope things get better,I dont think this tread is remotely related to you though.

I'm not sure how its not the same situation. I don't know any of these people but if child X has cancer and their and their families' suffering could be lessened slightly by money (for visits from special people or for treats or whatever) how is that different from child Y having cancer (or similar serious illness)? Surely the point is people want to help a child and their family. If Giraffes was a much loved nanny, wouldn't a visit from her make an ill child happy?

Its about people wanting to support the child not the poster surely? Of course these things are more likely to take off when a poster is well known and many less charismatic posters won't get the same help but that is (internet) life.

Still strongly against any MNHQ involvement. The threads where people donate are amongst the best on MN.
And no, I'm not talking about the 'I can't feed the cat' threads.

I also think what lisad said is very true. At times of great stress, being busy is sometimes the only thing you can do to keep the demons at bay.

weegiemum you did the right thing starting the thread

giraffes hope you have enough to ge there and do something nice as well

both of you - as my teen would say "hate the haters" just take no notice - when you get upset then that's when they get what they want - it's plain old jealousy - no different to when DD bit my belly and announced she was biting the new baby!

weegiemum you did the right thing starting the thread

giraffes hope you have enough to ge there and do something nice as well

both of you - as my teen would say "hate the haters" just take no notice - when you get upset then that's when they get what they want - it's plain old jealousy - no different to when DD bit my belly and announced she was biting the new baby!

giraffes My messages were not directed at you, i hope you are okay and that mean people leave you alone and you get the support you need on MN.

MY comments were meant that sometimes you cant tell who is having a moan and who is really struggling. and when I read them I feel like I should help more than saying 'poor you' but i'm not in a position to help them and it makes me feel crap.

I was merley pointing out that if only moaning was allowed we could all wade in with our moaning stories and comiserate together, without ignoring the point that the OP is in serious trouble.

If you are in SERIOUS TROUBLE you SHOULD be able to get help.

I want everyone to know my problem is that i want to HELP everyone and cant not that people shouldnt ask for help if they are in serious trouble.

I agree with Olivia PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL

Just spotted a line in Obi's post at 15.03 yesterday ....

"People are funny, and ridiculous, and vulnerable, and kind"

- thought that summed us all up rather well

and she says we don't generally need protecting from ourselves, which I guess tends to be part of the Mumsnet ethos.

It's not fair to discriminate though. If threads asking for donations are allowed they all need to be allowed and that isn't the case at the moment.

As I said previously, I'm not bothered much either way, but you can't have the policing of threads soliciting financial/material help whereby some are zapped as concern is expressed as to the motives of the OP and some are left to stand.

I used the word heartless in one of my posts. I want to make it clear I wasn't referring to the OP. I thought I worded it carefully enough and am sad if it has been misconstrued (but I may be worrying unnecessarily as Chipping also mentioned that word and has explained herself again ). Anyway, if it was referring to my post, I didn't mean you, OP, who I know well.

I stated that to post about internet safety re:giving money on a cast-iron genuine thread such as giraffes would be heartless, as no-one should be in any doubt whatsoever that giraffes is a genuine, wonderful poster and that any concerns about scamming would be absolutely incongruous.

So to post about trolly/scamming concerns on her threads/threads started about her would be, in my opinion, horribly misplaced. And create drama.

Hope I've explained myself better

Not if it was a standard MNHQ post on every thread where money was being discussed, Pinot. I think everyone would just get used to it and it wouldn't be taken as an implication that there was anything amiss.

Wah!
YY I said as MNHQ already post on every thread then for others to wade in was inappropriate.

But MNHQ don't post on every thread?

That's why people do get concerned.

I think the issue with giraffes, if I am understanding it correctly, is kinda separate - abusive PMs are not on, trollhunting is banned, it's simple. But if HQ posted on a thread just to say 'this is not an official MN fundraising campaign, the organizers are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, we have no reason to think they're not genuine but always be aware of internet safety', it'd be simple.

Helen said they did. Up there ^ ^ Or at least they try to - I guess with a gazillion threads they get to them when they can.

They don't, though, I know Helen's saying that, but they really don't, and it's never a standard message. Which I think is the problem. Because then people inevitably either think they're hinting the OP is a troll when they're not, or there is something different about this thread. So posting only on most of them actually makes it worse, IMO.

That's an excellent standard message, LRD. I don't think it would be too difficult as most, if not all threads asking for money are Reported anyway, due to the hazey rules on it.

I wouldn't think to report a thread most of the time, because I'm guilty of doing that 'oh, I know this poster, so it's fine' thing we all do. But if it could be done without the warning coming across as anything off, it'd be nice.

blimey, thatbastard has got an unfair pasting here fwiw, I think its a tough one. I have been the recipient of a mn whipround and was hugely grateful. but there is a big difference between helping someone who has a sick child/partner/is incredibly ill themselves and the "I have a tin of beans and a pear to last til next month" threads. threads about money rarely go well, and the op shouldnt get a flaming for pointing that out. nor should anyone get a "name" because someone else wants to have a whipround.

I think threads like that can turn into competitive "warm and fuzzies" with people feeling obliged to donate so they dont seem heartless. mners are ace. they are kind, supportive, funny and caring. but they can also be nasty and giraffes pm showed that.

we should report "please donate" threads (although sponsorship pleas arent allowed) so mnhq can post on it.

A standard MNHQ post sounds like quite a good idea LRD - and would make life easier for HQ ?

Or could you have two standard messages - one more generously worded where OP was well known, something known by HQ about the cause ?
And another where not much known at all, but no real reason to think anything untoward going on ?

Third category, suspicious and would be deleted by HQ ?

I think it would be very unfair to deem any thread 'suspicious', if they are to be allowed.

But what about if a completely new poster came on immediately asking for money for something very dubious - surely those type of extreme things could happen sometimes ?

Yeah, I agree with beertricks.

I think it'd be important that 'known' posters got exactly the same message. Because that would make it clear that the message isn't about saying 'wooo, trolly troll, hint hint', but it is about reminding people gently that they shouldn't get caught up and give money before thinking it through.

But they could still delete in the normal way if it was dodgy, juggling?

But MNHQ and all of us do know much more about some posters and threads than others ? I think a one statement approach is possible though, as long as it was carefully composed to reflect and encompass different situations.

Juggling, I'm tempted to say that if we're going down the road of "We're all adults" then that's what we'd have to put up with.

Yes, that was all I meant about some dodgy threads being deleted by HQ LRD - I was just trying to cover all bases

There's so many bases to coever with this issue, Juggling, that's the problem!

The compassion and generosity that is so often demonstrated here is what makes Mumsnet such a wonderful place but from what I have seen over the years, there often seems to be some sort of backlash after donations have been given. The very people that we were trying to help then end up feeling they have to justify themselves and are upset and hurt which is the last thing that they need.
There is no easy solution, but I wonder if we could somehow moderate these situations ourselves, a bit more formally than is currently done, so that when the inevitable flack starts it is directed at the 'moderators' rather than the recipients.

Yes I guess they would be - I was just trying to cover all bases really with a comprehensive approach, and responding to a post that appeared to say all such threads should be allowed to stand - though poster may not have been thinking of these worst case situations.

I think people are too subtle. They won't come on here and ask for money, they will come on here and say 'I can't feed my children' or 'I have no money, what should I do?' or 'My benefits have been messed up/the bank has taken my money etc.' Some posters do point them in the direction of the CAB or social services, some don't and will offer food or 'help'. I've only seen one thread where the OP has asked for items outright, and people did help, despite it being a new member.

You're all too kind hearted but some people forget to check on the person asking.

Luv ya! (I don't want your money)

helen, I wasn't criticizing. I know you're very busy and I know you can only post if someone reports.

Is there any value to a standardized reply, though?

I think there's a lot of value to the standardized replies, LRD, if it makes people stop and think before they send anything then it has helped. It can be so easy to get carried away and give more than you can afford IYKWIM.

There's nothing wrong with a standard reply, Helen. If it is a troll, it should deter them. It will make posters who are going with the flow of the thread stop and think. Seems like a good thing to me (unless I'm missing something very obvious).

You need a cake Smiley.

Well, the way it looks now - and I get that this isn't necessarily the way you want it to be, because it depends on us reporting - is that HQ's comments are responses to the OP, not responses to the basic situation of posters talking about sending money/goods to another poster.

I don't think I have ever, in all honestly, seen the first post from HQ on a money thread be the same as another time.

If we always saw exactly the same message, it'd be clear you're not hinting the OP is a troll, and you've not checked this specific OP - you just want people to treat giving money with caution.

Because as long as you keep on posting idiosyncratic responses to threads, I think people are going to keep on second-guessing what you think and assuming you're being cryptic. And they'll keep troll hunting or getting into a frenzy about donating to someone they've never met or heard of, just like before.

have to say that I am sad to see that there is now a mn post on the £5 thread,
well done, bet that has made Giraffe feel all happy !!
talk about kicking someone when they are down.
the timing of this thread is questionable.

Oh fgs!

FFS this thread was absolutely nothing to do with Giraffes, why can't people see that.

SAF did you mean to be quite so rude?

Actually I am a mumsnetter who has been helped in the past few weeks by a fair few MNers, since being diagnosed with cancer. I didn't ask for it, fuck I didn't even know they were doing it until I started receiving parcels every bloody day with essentials like wine and chocolate. I completely understand where he OP is coming from. I'm not sure why there has been a mass jumping on the bitch bandwagon frankly.

take our pick bastard

*your

It isn't mean or in questionable taste.

A discussion was had, most posters stated they wanted no ban on donation type threads, LRD made a very sensible suggestion, which MNHQ have taken on board and are going to work with.

Isn't this exactly what it should be? Posters questioning how things have been done - not to bitch or be mean - but in concern over others, and then MN sorting itself out.

You may say that you are not naive, and that you are clever enough to not be taken in, SAF, but there are others who are not. I could c&p posts that I have seen just this week that show otherwise.

I don't think that all posters are able to see the dangers, and I don't mean to be patronising when I say this.

Frankincense
Great distraction technique. Olivia should use that, rather than her <ahem>

To reply to the OP - I did a whipround for somebody this year that didn't go wrong. I didn't do paypal, just asked for tesco vouchers - because that would meet the need. The stuff came in, I sent it off, all fine. It is possible.

You may not have meant this thread to reflect on giraffes but the timing alone gives that impression. Yes it's important to prevent snippy and grumping posts and it's important that people don't get take for a ride but imo the MOST important thing about this site is that it makes the lives of the people posting on it easier not harder.

The thread is obviously prompted by seeing how upset giraffes was, and looking for ways to stop that happening again. And it makes the point that threads which solicit donations almost invariably end badly, often for a completely innocent party. It wasn't some covert attempt to accuse anyone of impropriety. Sometimes I think people read what they want to into an OP.

BOF, yep.

did i mean to be so rude? not really - just meant to give my response to the thread and this kind of self appointed policing.

as to some people are naive and need protecting therefore everything should be regulated and banned and controlled - you can't idiot proof the world or avoid every negative possibility and risks are inherent in freedom.

But mumsnet is a largely self-moderated site. So yes, anyone who has ever reported a post is a "self-appointed prefect" and as threads like the one the other week/last year show, sometimes begging threads appear. Either by the poster or by someone who has taken it upon themselves to organise a whipround. And they rarely end well. Giraffes got nasty pms which she absolutely did not deserve because someone with good intentions started a whipround thread. Posters have been banned for calling out repeated offenders. They often end up in a bunfight with "aw, the poor op. Leave off, she only has a pack spaghetti to last the month" posters on one side and "umm weren't you buying a brand new 4x4 and moving to a 7 bed house with a jacuzzi" posters on the other.

Mumsnet is self-policed. Someone asked if hq could look at a different way of handling things. What's the issue?

Anyway, I think it is best to leave this now. Giraffes has posted, and has hopefully hidden all the threads. She knows she has our support. MNHQ have responded and are looking into the issue. I don't see that it helps anyone to go around and around in circles.

I am off to buy some delish food for the weekend, cause DH is coming over.

i do not believe this thread has, 'helped' giraffe or been motivated by concern for her.

there is a distinct difference between reporting a post and starting threads calling for things people freely do on here and always have to be banned.

How do you know what the op's motives were?

i don't - i know what i believe - hence the 'i don't believe' as opposed to 'the ops motives were...'

And you don't think that posters should post suggestions for stopping certain things? Like railing against other posters.

Threads have been started to discuss deletions, trolling/hunting, whether we should have hide poster, pms, sponsorship... Its no different. Reporting a post because it offends you is policing.

Anyway, hiding the thread now, I have better things to do.

i think jumping in to stick the boot into an already difficult situation is in bad taste and usually no matter how saccarinely (sp) it is dressed the smell comes through.

Sorry, xpost.

* don't - i know what i believe - hence the 'i don't believe' as opposed to 'the ops motives were...'*

Why though? Considering she has said that if such threads were banned then g wouldn't have received those messages.

OP, I see what you mean about wanting to moan without people feeling they need/want to give financially but you don't have to accept anything that is offered.

I still remember a year or so a knock at the door and opening it to see the biggest box full of chocolates I had ever seen in my life. It had been send from Mumsnetters who had seen I was having a tough time and needed a boost that people cared. I still have the card and still smile every time I see it. I haven't the words to tell you the lovely feeling ti gave me to actually feel that strangers cared about me when my family don't.

I had hardly got over the shock when there was another knock at the door and there was a delivery of a big bunch of beautiful flowers. They cheered up my room and cheered my heart and I have never forgotten the kindness of strangers.

People should do what they want, only give what they can afford and never be told not to do something because bullies decide to cause a fuss. These people who have been cruel enough to send vile messages are cowards and pathetic people and I just hope they are never in a position to need the kindness of strangers as it won't be forthcoming as we will find out who you are eventually.

And how is it sticking the boot in? You seem to have already decided that the op meant this maliciously, stuff what she has said.

I don't like the idea of MNHQ deciding, voting, on whether posters can help another. They might own the site but they are not parents to us.

And I'm getting quite sick and cross at people equating Giraffe's needing money for a flight to see a child she once nannied for with any appeal for Expat/Ailidh. The one has absolutely fuck all to do with the other.

But part of the wanting to help Giraffes is exactly because of how much support she gave to Expat and her family, is it not?

Exactly, JustFab. People want to help giraffes because she herself is so kind, thoughtful and giving.

I hope Giraffes is OK about all of this ? Does anyone know how she's doing ?
I think I'd be feeling quite upset about it all if it were me

I believe OP was CONCERNED about Giraffes and accusations made against her and wanted to prevent similar things happening in the future - and I do agree that money threads never end well here.

Is this a money thread ....
I'm not sure how well this one's going either .....

How do Netmums or other parenting forums manage this type of thing - out of interest?

What Chipping said. We're all adults here.

But expat, the OP was not at any point saying that we can't decide whether to support x,y,z and need protecting from ourselves. She was pointing out that mere fact of asking normally backfires in some way, and should we find a better/different way of doing this? As a recipient of MN assistance, why should YOU have to justify where money was spent, for example. That is not the spirit in which it was given, but there are nasty, spiteful people out there.

I dont think these sorts of asking threads should be banned, or MN deciding.
I do think however, that it is a better idea to ask a person first before collecting for, or on behalf of them, whether on MN or anywhere else for that matter.It can be done with the best of intentions, but sometimes the other person may want to say no.

MNHQ have stated they don't want to get involved or police this. Many, many posters have said they prefer to decide for themselves.

I would presume if you don't want to donate you just don't and if you have concerns you report, as per the usual advice.

They've said they don't want to be involved or police it, but if an 'unknown' poster appears to be asking for money they will delete the thread. It's inconsistent.

I don't think it's inconsistent as such. I think they're using common sense. Of course they're going to give more leverage to an existing poster.

I don't think it's inconsistent. It seems a fairly sensible way to proceed.

How long do you have to have been here in order to be allowed to have a thread like that? How prolific?

It's just too subjective and it does lead to inconsistencies. Hence my opinion that they are all allowed to stand or none at all.

Well you can't put an exact figure to it, can you? That's daft. HQ use their noggin. Their experience and nous will tell them whether to delete or let it run.

It's not a black and white issue.

Is nous even a word? I know what I mean, anyway.

yes. is someone who posts every day for 3 months more trustworthy than someone who posts once a week for 5 years?

I think allowing posters to decide when and how they respond and trusting that MNHQ will be able to make decisions on 'new' posters is the way forward.

Why does there have to be hard and fast 'rules'. We are all adults and this is not school.

They get it wrong sometimes, about lots of things. Which leads to bad feeling, suspicion and bitching and that is kind of Santa's point.

I think it has to do with trust.
I always say that trust has to be earned.
A new poster, nobody knows. They could be anybody.

Pffft.

I don't think HQs decisions lead to bitching and bad feeling. I reckon that goes on regardless!

We could all be 'anybody', amillion. Every one of us

BlameIt, that is why the search facility is there. So you can make your own mind up about whether to trust the poster.

Same reply to Beer!

No, it's not mistakes on MNHQ's part that leads to bad feeling, suspicion and bitching - it's the posters involved in the bitching who are entirely responsible for it.

I think we should just trust MNHQ to do their investigating when a post is reported and allow them to make the decision.

As MissA says, there are no absolutes. It comes down to the judgement of those on the thread, and of the MNHQler on duty.

I PMed Giraffes last night and she said she wasn't going to waste any more energy on this, and I'm going to respect her wish and shut up now too.

(I know I said that earlier, but I mean it now. Permission to kick me if you see me back on this thread is granted)

MissA is saying what I want to say but so much better.

<logs off>

ooh xpost

<leaves with Mme>

You really don't know much about anonymous social networking, do you, amillion

I feel sick that this thread exists and has made giraffes feel bad.

I have even less gin now.

<still hopeful but getting slightly desperate face>

amillion, not everyone uses search.

trin, its not this thread. its some cunt who pmed her on FB. which would be something that the OP is discussing stopping.

I do wish people would read the thread.

If you water it down it will last longer. More tips on MSE.

I think that if people choose to give money to an individual who's story has touched them then they should be able to. To stop that basic gut instinct to want to help is the slippery slope to me. For every 'Internet con' there must be 10 honest stories. I am willing to be conned out if £5 if I give £10 to someone who I can help. That is what being human is about.

More important to complain about the people whose automatic default is to question anyone with kind motives than it is to remove any possibility of helping someone who needs help.

I love mn because people try to help 'strangers' with no thoughts of thanks or underlying motives.

Most people who give selflessly will accept the risk of being stung as acceptable against the 'risk' of doing good.

My view (I am aware I am a horrible person) is that this is an Internet Forum and not a charity. Money should not change hands here. Advice, yes, and there are Topics for sending/asking for things. I fully support the Xmas Appeal and Woolly Hugs and think there is a place for cases like Expat, UnlikelyAmazonian etc where sanctioned appeals are allowed. Otherwise, I really do think any other giving should take place offline.

I have no fucking gin.

I do have drugs though.

and on saturday we are going to the german xmas market so I will be drinking hot spiced cider and mulled wine.

Lush.

Nothing and nobody 'made' anyone PM giraffes. There is absolutely no way of taking account of that or stopping it.

The shit bag who PMed giraffes is responsible for the PM, not the thread.

I think people should have their wits about them on the internet, just as anywhere else.
We dont call Mumsnet real life, but it is.

name, but its not so much that that's the problem (although I agree with porto) its the way that those threads go.

there was one last week (iirc) that turned v nasty because the op had "form" and her thread was hilariously likened to the coca cola truck.

and now giraffes has had a vile pm.

lots of posters who have been on the receiving end of a whipround face a backlash. how is that fair?

'But expat, the OP was not at any point saying that we can't decide whether to support x,y,z and need protecting from ourselves. She was pointing out that mere fact of asking normally backfires in some way, and should we find a better/different way of doing this?'

HQ have already said they don't have the resources to police it, and what people do is get a paypal address and donate that way.

It doesn't backfire at all, it just makes some pathetic, mean-spirited trolls spiteful and hateful. Well, fuck 'em.

I am pretty sure that on Martin's Money Saving forum, as an example, there are many on the bones of their arse. They get good advice though, not handouts. I would suggest that people who want to HELP look around where they live, donate to food banks, support women's refuges, check on elderly neighbours in the cold weather etc.

a good few years ago I received donations from the xmas appeal

it truly touched my heart

dont think giving, if we can, should ever stop

'I am pretty sure that on Martin's Money Saving forum, as an example, there are many on the bones of their arse. They get good advice though, not handouts. I would suggest that people who want to HELP look around where they live, donate to food banks, support women's refuges, check on elderly neighbours in the cold weather etc.'

People are already self-police and do that on here, though. There are several threads active right now in such a vein - one in AIBU about hating the recession.

I can't think of anyone who has recently been looking for a handout.

actually, I was thinking about this. why are whiprounds allowed but requests for sponsorship not?

Bastard, sadly many are missing the point.

People can see it happening but prefer to take responsibility for themselves rather than being treated like a child.

ssd, the op wasnt calling for the xmas appeal to be stopped though. thats a totally different kettle, as are the wooly hugs.

expat, last week. a regular. will FB you.

I am not missing the point. I am disagreeing.

expat, sadly I CAN.

I know, Cuervo! It doesn't make sense, really.

Portofino, thats your view, you are fully entitled to it and you don't need to donate to anything you don't want to.

But a few posters have touched my heart in a way that has made me want to donate to them, thats my view and I am fully entitled to it.

I actually prefer to help out "someone" than a faceless charity, although I do my fair share of donating to charity as well.

Well, then, if they want to beg, let 'em. It's up to adult users of this site if they want to give them money.

beertricks, I dont get it. someone posts a sponsorship form for a very good cause and its removed.

AGAIN - the point of the OP was that asking for money backfires on the poster - IT WAS NOT about whether we choose to give or not.

Define backfires? IMO, PMs from nasty trolls aren't evidence of anything backfiring, but of people being fuckwits.

porto, yep.

its great to give. I have done it many times. but when theres a backlash its the recipient who gets hurt.

AGAIN - the point is that it is not donation threads that cause ill feeling it is people who bitch or send horrible PMs.

How about a bit of personal responsibility instead of expecting MNHQ to parent us?

As someone who has shamelessly asked for money on behalf of others on MN, I don't agree with the OP's proposals. The whip-round is sometimes the quickest and most practical way to help a MNer in need. I'm sorry to read about the mean-spirited arsehole who sent that PM though, that was shit.
I'm in the "we're all adults and can make up our own minds" camp.

SAF, and lots of people agreed. maybe they have a point too.

Where is someone dragging drama out of other people's issues exactly?

bingo

Of course - and YOU would know all about that.

Oh, there's no reasonable debate to be had when people start that old shit up.

<leaves>

Having done it yourself.

SAF, I'm sure that it was more upsetting to receive a PM accusing her of taking an extremely ill child's money.

Swallowed - why you don.t just come right out and say what is on your mind, rather than being sneery.

Seems the only one being 'sneery' is you swallowedAHorse.

She's dead,of course.

I am sure the whole of MN will be interested.

what? ONE poster? who had already posted on this thread?

alert the elders!

You should start your own thread though, probably.

alright dear.

toodle-pip.

FFS. There are some nasty people about.

I'm very much in the 'let us make up our own minds' team. And I do think that whoever sent abusive PMs was off his/her fucking trolley and nasty with it.
If you can't afford to donate, or don't want to, or have your suspicions that the recipient is a scammer, then don't donate and report if necessary. There's no need to do any more than that. If you start to attack the recipient, you risk distressing someone who's already in a bad place, whereas if you just report your suspicions to MNHQ or whoever, the recipient doesn't need to know if s/he is genuine.

I do also think that it's useful for people to have a space where they can rant and whine about their money troubles when what they want is to rant and whine and/or get some advice on how to fix things (eg go to CAB, here's how to deal with bailiffs, this is a debt-sorting charity who will be able to help).

What was thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Feeling some sympathy for SAF for what it's worth

< thinks of leaving too >

Oh,sorry,you meant the Bitch bit

I think, on the whole, and having read the entire thread, that most are not in favour of the type of ban described in the op. I don't think that all whip-round threads end in a backlash - to be honest I am not really aware of any other whip-round threads. But if they do it is surely only one or two knobends causing grief, and everyone else remains firmly in favour of giving support.

There are knobends on every kind of thread and in every Topic of mumsnet these days. It is so big that even if 0.01% of posters are knobends they will eventually make their presence felt.

I don't know why it pisses some people off so much if people want to send money.

Whats it to you? If you don't want to ,don't.

The twats causing trouble over it are the problem.

I think we are all adults and can make our own choices.

No one has to do anything they don't want to.

I think it is a shame that people can't post about being skint or whatever without being eyed cynically, or even worse, being accused of 'fishing' for a secret santa nomination.......

IMO if you want to donate to any MNner 'whipround', then do If you don't then don't.

If something concerns you, report to MNHQ.

Other than that, people should keep their beaks out.

Just a thought what happened to that JJBean poster person?

Agree Amberleaf.

To be fair to SAF, we have 'history' and are not exactly 'best friends' but she doesn't follow me about being nasty that I've ever noticed, not sure that's her style.

Obviously I can only comment on her and me in that respect.

kittehs?

I don't think I understand this thread any more.
Anybody care to shorthand it for me, please?

Kittehs sounds like a posh way to say kitties

It is Amber JodieH said it and it gave me the lolz, so I have adopted it in the hope of appearing wise and witty, like wot Jodie is. And now pesky TBS has sullied it by stamping on them there KITTEHS

SwallowedAFly?

She has already been very clear, Portofino. What more do you want?

SAF as a very recent recipient of umpteen goodies, pennies and, importantly, wine from probably about 40+ MNers, I am a. not at all hurt by this thread and b. feel that your rather odd grudge against certain MNers is pathetic and seemingly a tool that you use every so often to lay into people.

Not nice and unpleasantly vindictive.

People give away wine? Lawks.

Nope, I need it MORE Janet and John, please, with footnotes and references and links.
I am very confused.

Am I supposed to be sending kittens to someone?

WINE ?

I am Franklyincensed at the very idea.

But not gin, it would appear, Pinot. <sulks>

Pinot My 16 yr old DS just looked over at me and said what?

I was sitting here saying kittehs repeatedly in my posh voice...channeling Barbara Cartland [or someone]

Unless it's that Blossom Hill crap <gracious>

I've discovered toffee vodka this week. Marvellous.

Kittehs to me pleaseandthanks, Norks

xpost Amber it's an earworm!

KITTEHS

ThatBastardSanta - I really, really get where you are coming from, and I have seen the car crash threads to which you refer. And I applaud your good-hearted intentions behind this thread.

But sadly, I don't think there's any really easy way to deal with this, beyond ensuring that anything slightly dubious is reported to MNHQ, and to let them deal with it.

There are some truly unpleasant posters on MN, and I am and [aghast] at those who even think it's acceptable to send PMs to recipients of other people's good wishes.

Quite BIWI.

Not just wine, oh no. Baileys, jäger, vodka and a tonne of chocolate. My older 3 looked longingly at the haul but I told them to fuck off and buy their own. Like I'm going to share my stash with them.

Excellent post BIWI.

Actually, could we have an [aghast] emoticon, please?

BIWI is the new Hecate.

pinot my kitten-loving friend, I will swap you a hand-made kitten for the faintest idea of what s going on.
I am confused, but I know how to make things. Including kittens.

(but not live ones)

How would it look BIWI? Like a cheerier version of The Scream?

Who said 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'?

Seems particularly apposite today.

I've posted a picture of my dog in the new picture topic, if anyone wants to coo at him

Norks <squeeeee @ hand-made kitteh> Would you?

You have mail!

I coo at pigeons Cuervo,i bark at dogs and scream at mirrors.

If BIWI is the new me, who can I be?

[identity crisis]

pinot are you BEGGING for a kitten, because that is not allowed.

However, I am happy to make you one as a gesture of love and generosity from one woman to another, even though I do not really know you in real life.
It is my choice to do this and even though you might sell the hand crafted work of art that I will make for you, I accept that is your right and my gift is freely given.

Hec, you could go nuts, invent a whole new identity!

echo, bark at my dog and he will....

... run away like the wuss he is.

<SCREAMS> Hec - how did you know I'd been a cheeky bint? thereisonlyoneHecatepleasedon'thateme

Norks, I shall ne'er sell kittehs. I shall clasp to my bosom*

*don't let that put you off

Don't want a ban.

YABU

Good post BIWI.
I've had some pretty nasty stuff too before

It really is only the fault of the nasty people.

Oh no, Hecate, I am not worthy!

Anyway, to matters more important. Gordons or Hendricks. Don't really mind.

tanqueray or bombay sapphire. I make the best G&Ts ever. and Bloody Mary's

OK. Would accept either.

Thunder Toffee Vodka.

dh got some blackcurrant brandy from our local produce market. he approved. and I used pecan and maple brandy to soak my xmas fruit.