Mumsnet Talk

Boo hooooooooooooo.

Hooray - I went last year and it was seriously naff!

I am one of those that offered, and yes, I am a wee bit disapointed, especially as it was going to be time away from the psycho ones[winks].

I know that your reasons are for the weapons issues, but however, going on the amount of trolling recently, I think you have made the right descision.

tis a shame, but there will be, I am sure, other opportunities to get yourselves known to genuine new posters.

also, really, anyone who joins up at the moment are going to possibly have a rough ride getting themselves known etc.....given how suspicious everyone is right now.

Arse

at makin you smile!!!

<<hijack>>....flame, shall we lie???

when is the baby show?

oh its ok, found it and its London so not the adventure i thought it would be for you 2!(I thought it would be Birmingham for some reason!)

At the risk of sucking some serious arse, can I just say that I really appreciate the fact that you take the trouble to consult us about things like this, and that you are prepared to put ethics before profit on a regular basis (WRT your advertising policies). You are a shining example of corporate social responsibility.

<extracts nose from MNHQ's virtual bum>

Thank you.

I think the right decision.

Psycho's point re trolls is good too- Just this weekend I spoke to two lovely lurkers who are too afrad to post because of some of the nastier postings. Both are sn famillies and isolated so I thought even more really.

Have you told Clarion that you thought about having a stall at Baby Show but decided against it after lots of ummming and ahhhing and consultation with your X number of members?
Might make them think again about their own direct dealings with arms sales?

FWIW -think 'that annoying Canadian bloke' is actually from Boston. Us Canadians don't talk that way thank you (and actually neither do any Bostonians I know)

What policywonk said, good call

What policywonk said, good call

Lol I was considering lying so I could go see MRM or Kelly, then realised I was already worrying about how I was going to pay to get there anyway

mumofmonsters that's in May.

Thanks for letting us know Justine, TBD has been trying to put me off anyway as he thinks it wouldn't be an easy journey from Croydon with a pair of crutches. If you do decide to attend the Birmingham show next year I will be more than happy to help out and would even do the whole weekend if you needed it. Plenty of time to decide though

Personally I don't think it's a problem, it is a legal event and for plenty of people guns are a hobby or part of their job. There are some stupid people out there who are irresponsible with guns, but then there are with lots of other thing too.

what does him (whoever he is?) being Canadian have to do with anything?

Nothing wrong with being American!

So those countries we regard as good and democratic and who, we'd say, have a right to defend themselves... When they want to buy arms, where should they go?

Well, I was going to state my sincere approval of your decision, but policywonk's association of that statement with the sucking of serious arses has put me off.

(I only suck frivolous arses.)

not to the baby show?

I like the fact that MN HQ think about these sort of things. Whatever you think about arms sales, the way legitimate democratic protesters are treated outside that big arms fair at excel is appalling.

Seem to recall the Lancet put a lot of pressure on Reed, who publish New Scientist among other titles, to drop their involvement in an arms exhibition. Quite right too.

You either want to be in the business of nice smiling gurgling baby stuff or in the business of killing people. Trying to take money from both markets seems rather amoral.

Thank you for making this decision, and thank you for taking the time to discuss it with us.

Did you get in touch with Mark Thomas in the end? If you are going to bang a campaign drum (and I'm not saying you should, by any means, but if you were to...) then he'd be the person to talk to!

Bravo - refreshing and cockle-warming in the extreme to see a company displaying the courage of its convictions.

Bravo! <<applauds wildly>>

Good call.
Makes me proud to say that the forum I choose to be a part of has ethics and actually cares what the posters think.

I disagree with your decision, but agree mightily with (and appreciate) your consultation process.

I can't face typing a fullscale reply but just wanted to say my bit. I'm a Mum and a serving Army Officer, albeit now only very, very part time in the TA (used to be a Regular). I've just spent the weekend doing my annual weapons training....does this mean I will be blacklisted from Mumsnet......just remember there is always more to these problems than meets the eye

prinicples and consulataion - how refreshing.

lapsedrunner - speaking for myself (and, I think, for quite a few of us who were opposed to the arms fair connection), this wasn't an objection to the UK armed forces - it's quite a seperate issue. It was an objection to the international arms trade as it currently exists. It's been shown, time and again, to be utterly corrupt. Its influence is particularly wicked in developing countries, where autocratic leaders are only too happy to take massive bribes from arms companies, and spend national revenue on weapons instead of the food, healthcare and education that their citizens so desperately need. (Not to say that leaders of Western nations are not happy to take bribes too, mind.)

It's just a wicked and corrupt industry.

Wot PW said. Also these fairs have actually been sold by the previous owners due to boycotts and other ethical protests, then Clarion went and bought them all up, so it wasn't as if they weren't aware of the controversy surrounding them.

separate

I do know how to spell it. Jeez.

Agree with pw - I do hope those who are/have partners serving in the armed forces don't think this is about them. It's about the trade, and the shameless way it takes money from corrupt and vile regimes. Good stuff, MNHQ.

The problem is that in reality you can't separate between our "UK Armed Forces" and the "corrupt and vile regimes". They all buy and sell at the same exhibitions.......

Take for example BAE Systems, presumably this is OK www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/insyte_windfarms_assessment.html but this www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/l_and_a_ls_105mm_light_gun.html is not?

Good night

I think there's a difference between a legitimate and illegimate regime.

lapsed - the arms companies don't want to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate regimes. They just want to maximise profits. They wouldn't know a moral compass if it bit them on the arse.

As for BAe - I think the answer to that one is that only recently, BAe escaped a corruption inquiry because Saudi Arabia blackmailed the British government into dropping it. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, all BAe products are highly suspect, wind farms or weaponry. In any other industry, BAe would have been publically disgraced long ago.

Apologies, got to go and repack my kit now just in case my mobilistaion papers arrive in the post tomorrow post

as a lifelong CND er

GOOD CALL JUSTINE

kisses and free love

NotanOtts

<peers round policywonk's brown nose>

Well Done!

..as you were...

good, I'm glad.
but would also like to echo policywonk, there is a difference (or at least I'm prepared to grant that there could and should be) between an industry selling death machines to the highest bidder and the UK armed forces.
and would not like service personnel to feel unwelcome here.

Good on you I think, well done, you're a business that does the right thing.

And I also appreciate the fact that you want to know what people think about it. Good for you.

Good call, Justine.

Agree with Policywonk.

Did you get in touch with Mark Thomas?

Oh, and the Baby Show was shit when I went to it (I got free tickets) - paying to go and be advertised at? Weird idea.

Policywonk, perfectly said.

what's to um and ar about? babies = good. Arms dealing= kills lots of babies in cold blood along with their families. Bad.

It seems rather odd to bang on and on about the former whilst supporting the latter so of course MN made the right choice. Don't mumble and apologise and stare at your shoes - shout it from the rooftops. you did a good thing.

Hijack.
Policywonk, did you try to CAT me a few days ago? if so, I may have deleted you without opening the e mail...

I do agree, but I want to play Devil's advocate for a moment... For example... How far would you take this argument? British Aerospace make parts for the Airbus and also manufacture warplanes and ammunition. Will you be boycotting airlines that fly their planes? Or is the lure of cheap flights too attractive for your principles to apply in the same way?

what about expensive flights, fortyplus - if you go first class on airbus, is that OK?

Seriously, I'm all in favour of British Aerospace earning their money from legitimate activities such as selling civilian planes, or selling planes to the RAF and democratic countries where people have a say in the decisions of those in power.

Not that I've actually been on a plane in I don't know how long anyway.

It was the bit about... 'it came to our attention that the organisers also host an arms fair. ' So they don't actually make guns themselves? They just enter into a commercial arrangement to allow their premises to be used by a perfectly legal business?

Very fine principles, indeed, but it made me wonder how much thought would go into upholding them under a different set of circumstances.

I think that gives you your answer, then.

mark thomas - the bostonian who sounds canadian?

Thought that was Paul Newman?

Lloyd Grossman

Unless it's that Jamaican Rasta who makes the Reggae Reggae sauce?

No, he's from MasterChef

JustineMumsnet - PN or LG?

Yes he's from Boston.

No-one appreciates my jokes. I'm going to the garden to eat worms. In an Arrabiata sauce.

I just don't watch enough tv!

Paul Newman is dead.

Lloyd Grossman is not.

Both make pasta sauces

Do not understand link of baby show/no arms deals and pasta sauces, possibly salad dressings.

Justine said "we've cogitated, ruminated and whatever else that annoying Canadian bloke does," about MN deciding not to go to the show. He's not Canadian he's from Boston. He used to say 'we've cogitated and ruminated' before anouncing the judges' choice on MasterChef. He is called Lloyd Grossman. Not Paul Newman. Though they do both have pasta sauce ranges. And one is dead.

Maybe there's an annoying Canadian, too?

Now that you come to mention it!

he does not. not even a little bit. you need to speak to more canadians.

gawd he doesn't sound remotely Cdn! Or even American, he's developed his own accent.

but plenty of annoying Cdns out there am sure.....excluding those on mnet threads natch.

Ahem. I have worked with Lloyd Grossman and he is a lovely man in real life. Talks like a sensible person, not a plonker - despite his TV persona - and his accent is not nearly as strong in RL.

Tells dire jokes, though.

That's it! Justine - you are on THE LIST!
<takes out scroll and red pen>

I support this 100%.

The link on Hackney doula's blog Mentioned a 'list of banned advertisers'. Is it possible that this list could be made public? It might cause some drama initially but would be nice and transparent and probably would make it easier to debate things.

Was not opposed to the sex shop adverts but ultimately I think it was v. good that it was discussed and they were removed since that was the consensus.

I never knew Loyd Grossman wasn't a Canadian.

According to Wiki (so take it with a whole shaker of salt) his accent is Mid-Atlantic. Whatever the hell that means.

Why has this sudenky been bumped?

weevils opening up the kink in the space-time continuum again.

What the Actual Fuck.

Justine. This is ridiculous. What a ridiculous thing. That is like shooting yourself in the foot.

The target group of the Baby show is parents of babies, not Gadaffis in waiting!

I cannot walk down the street, because there might be criminals there, and there might be prostitutes, and I cant be associated with any of these, oh no!

Am I nmissing zonethin?

I am NOT going to be infected by Nestle, if I shop in Boots, or Tesco, or any shop that also sells Nestle products.

You are NOT supporting the arms trade by going to the Baby Show, you are not.

You are not giving out any good, or decent, or justifiable messages by not taking part of the event. You are telling the world that the other exhibitors (and possibly also the attendees to any Clarion event), in your opinion, are in fact supporting the arms trade, and would not that harm advertising revenue more?
You are coming across as rather Square.

If, on the other hand you were to say that you would not go to the Baby show as you dont see that a website have much to offer on a stand, or that it is naff, that is in itself a legitimate reason.

Rant Over.

now coffee.

Quint this is 2008. Or is it happening again?

This thread is four years old

Is it a cunning ploy to show how MN is more commercial these days and thus are now arms dealing ...

Justines got a brand new Uzi .

Penny drops on the I'm watching you photo...

Ex CIA ..it was all a deep undercover plot

Do like all the talk of trolls and invasions and hoe mn will never be the same

Quint, Quint, Quint... this was four years ago, and there was a big debate about it all over MN at the time before MNHQ made this decision -- in fact they made the decision because of a substantial group of MNers who thought they should. IIRC the point was that the previous organisers of the arms fair had just quit doing it because of the negative publicity, and Clarion had just taken it over -- so it was more of a message to Clarion that their actively choosing to support the arms trade would have repercussions in their other business dealings. But, as I say, it was four years ago so I may not be RC.

Y'know this will be one of 'those' threads don't you?

You know, all very quiet and hush hush and nothing whatsoever to do with the security services sending each other coded messages through forum threads.

<pulls on night vision goggles>

<purchased from National Geographic natch>

<not nasty arms fair baby people>

Oh no.

I have fallen victim to Evil Thread Resurrection?

If I am not mistaken, I was heavily against it back then. Eh time flies....

Are we going back in time today theres something about it on the meet our bloggers bit on home page

Plot thickens.....

Told you.

pulls out OFRS and makes call to friendly ex-bf who works for GCHQ

Look at some of the names that posted <sob>

(was like putting on an old comfy coat that fit)

I was just reading this thinking oh look Policywonk and VictorianSqualor are posting, how nice. Durrrr

How on earth did this pop up?

Could mumsnet have their own event please! I was planning on attending the baby show but now having second thoughts. Could do with some bargains before I pop