Mumsnet Talk

Creams, ointments, sticking plasters and an ample supply of liquid paracetamol - odds are, your medicine cupboard is stocked with the same items. The occasional spoonful of paracetamol has helped my children through many a minor illness, but in recent months, I have met families in Sudan and Afghanistan without access to proper medical care or basic medicine.

This despite a pledge from world leaders in 2000 to achieve eight Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), aimed at eradicating global poverty. These goals included reducing child deaths, and the deaths of women in childbirth.

There has been progress. Deaths from measles, one of the main child killers in developing countries, have more than halved since 1999. The TB epidemic is on the verge of decline and more than 2 million people are now receiving treatment for HIV/AIDS.

Yet each year 10 million children still die before their fifth birthday and every minute, a woman dies in childbirth somewhere in the world. In 2000, world leaders pledged to stop the spread of major diseases, yet each year, malaria claims a million lives, tuberculosis nearly two million lives and HIV/Aids three million lives.

That is why, this afternoon, the Prime Minister and I will join developed and developing countries, alongside the eight largest health agencies to launch the International Health Partnership.

The International Health Partnership has three aims : to better coordinate the aid given to poor countries; to focus on improving health systems as a whole; and to support the unique health plans of developing countries.

What does better aid co-ordination mean?
Zambia receives health support from more than 15 major international partners - Rwanda more than 20. The multiple partners and reporting procedures that developing countries have to deal with wastes time and resources. To help countries like Zambia and Cambodia, donor countries in the International Health Partnership will work together to reduce the administrative burden on overstretched ministries of health, thus increasing the cost effectiveness of aid.

Why focus on improving health systems?
There has been a lot of success in tackling specific diseases such as measles and TB in recent years. However, today complications in childbirth are the leading cause of death for women in the developing world aged 15-19 years. Without trained doctors, nurses and midwives, this cannot be stopped. Worldwide, it is critical to develop strong health systems that can provide health care to all members of society. The International Health Partnership aims to help other countries improve their health systems and ultimately, ensure lives will be saved.

Why is it necessary to support each country's unique and specific health plan?
Too often health plans have been drawn up by just a few individuals, when in reality, health plans must reflect the needs of a country's citizens. This means not only more joint working across Governments, but also between donors, parliamentarians, NGOs and the private sector. Just as we demand the right to shape our health care system, the Partnership commits developing countries to creating comprehensive and effective health plans and commits developed countries to help put them into practice.

No greater cause:
As the Prime Minister has said, "there is no greater cause than ensuring that every child and every family in the world should benefit from the best medicine and healthcare."

Mumsnet members, I would welcome your insights and comments on how we tackle poverty and help families in the developing world.

I think poverty and lack of access to proper health care and medication is often linked to a lack of proper distribution channels, as often as not, due to unrest, war, corruption etc.

I am not at all sure that you can effectively deal with one without dealing with the other.

That is not to say that one should not try to tackle these issues but that one should bear in mind the restrictions on successful outcomes that exist in reality.

i tell you what hasn't been mentioned in terms of healthcare -
sanitary products for women - lots of women in the countries you are talking about don't have access to sanitary towels/tampons etc as they cannot afford them
using rags, newspaper etc is not good for them, their dignity or reproductive health

yes NGOs and governments should work together but there is a history of money and medical supplies being diverted from where they are really needed - how is this going to be changed?

Some thoughts I've been mulling.

People are keen and willing to help, but want to know the money is going to individuals, they can identify with ie who are perhaps at similar life stages to them (it's harder to give to a faceless 10 million than a child the same age as yours). Targetting women when pregnant and after birth - in the nicest possible way - is ideal as I think that's when you often realise just how lucky you are and would be prepared to give.

What about a system whereby you could sponsor another woman's pregnancy in the third world and/or their vaccination programme - it could be given as a birth gift via Oxfam - I know lots of folks do this already. Or what about twinning ante natal groups with pregnancy clinics in same way schools are twinned.

Education is also key. From what I know from my sis who did a stint with Comic relief the stats seem to show that where children/adults are educated, infant mortality rates are better, Aids/hiv levels drop etc etc, yet lots of African children who want to be doctors and nurses and teachers end up leaving school at 14 because that's when free school ends.

What about giving folks for whom the CTF voucher doesn't mean that much the chance to invest it for a child abroad so that they could take the money accrued (ideally at 13 rather than 18) for continued education? I know our education system needs investment but what people in the Uk want is the feeling that Africa is not a bottomless pit and the money we are putting in will enable them to provide their own healthcare/education etc as well as reducing poverty long term..

Anyway am beginning to rant so had best go and make kids' tea.

AIDS education

access to contraception

access to vaccinations

breastfeeding promotion rather than the promotion of formula milk

Put mucho resources into educating young girls and women. Women are much more likely to pass on any education they receive to others in their families and communities. Education also enables them to take control of their fertility and have the children they want/need. It also increases their chances of decently paid work - and again, women are more likely to plough their earnings back into their home communities.

Surely Douglas Alexander has policy wonks of his own, though??

make women/children a priority, esp advice/clinical services like contraception, safe abortion, obstetrics, vaccinations, more attention directed towards stopping domestic violence, help for mental health problems...the list is almost endless.

also make solutions which will work locally, not all policies bashed out in geneva work for all countries.

Gree with Lulumama

targeting mothers (and those with parental repsonsibiltiy for kids not their own as so often happens, especially in HIV ravaged communities) is surely one of the best methods as this directly and eventually should feed through to all poeple in the community via such things as the provision of health advice, nutritional info and suchlike.

sadlt I am not sure that some of the most essential interventions (contraception) could be effectively dealt with until Churches in some aras become much mroe enlightened.

However, essential though it is to target pregnant women etc- its so important that we don't forget the mroe faceless and often most vulnerable poeple in a society, the aged and disabled.

Communities have to be able to identify their own needs, so training community reps is an important task- some communities will benefit mroe from (say) cataract operation / treatment for river blindness; others are desperate for HIV education. Add these to the basics outlined by Lulumama and you might just start to get a workable system.

Oh and training poeple in advocacy too, people need to elarn how to develop their 'voices' so they can know how to campaign locally and take responsibility as aid is vital but only a stopgap

bumping for the evening crowd

Make sure every village has a decent water supply.

Having worked in the NHS I am concerned about the number of nurses and other health professional we recruit from the developing world. It felt as though we were poaching excellent and well-qualified people from communities that could ill-afford to lose them.

Afraid I wouldn't have a clue how to tackle this one without restricting people's choices on where to work, but I guess helping to ensure healthcare professionals in these countries have ok wages, working conditions, and the tools to do there jobs would help.

wow big issue
1) stop the unfair trade practices engaged by Europe and the US and allow developing countries to compete fairly in world markets
2) Expand micro credit schemes to facilitate enterprise

Contraception contraception contraception.

Why on earth are there still babies being born in Darfur? Surely if you are living in those conditions common sense tells you not to bring yet another unfortunate child into that situation.

On Aids, if everyone used condoms the disease would die out eventually. Sure that would have an impact on population, but frankly so much the better.

People have got to be educated on population control and eradicating Aids, and given the necessary resources.

Continually pouring food aid into countries, particularly in Africa, where it just gets soaked into an ever increasing population and ever increasing numbers of Aids patients is not going to solve the problem.

There is the exact replica of this thread, whys that then?

why is........ not whys

I really like Clls suggestion for twinning antenatal classes as we do schools.

Come down hard on companies that market formula in the developing countries - they make a lot of money here and there must be some way of making them hurt if they are behaving badly

Education of women/girls

international trade negotiations
regulation of multinational companies

found this interesting

Mark Curtis, Director of the World Development Movement, said: “The UK government has hijacked the language of development campaigners to hide its promotion of ultra-free market economics, privatisation and deregulation which is serving the interests of multinational corporations. The real question is not “How do we bring other countries to support the UK’s positive agenda?” but “Does the UK have the right agenda at all?” Sadly, rich countries are now uniting around policy prescriptions that over the past twenty years have led to increased poverty and inequality.”

a serious commitment to rights-based development. Which means embracing (nobel-prize winning) Amartya Sen's definition of poverty; seeing those living in poverty as active agents in the development process; consultation (the people who really know the answers are the people who are facing the problems); participation; consent; seeing the links between freedom of expression and association, participation in public life, stability in public life, education, discrimination and poverty.

See the UNDP Human Development report 2000 and Human Rights and Poverty Reduction: A conceptual framework

I can provide you with a whole reading list if you like.

Can I ask why you have come to MN? And who else you are consulting with?

Department for International Development has given millions to privatisation consultants such asPricewaterhouseCoopers,KPMG and the Adam Smith Institute, supposedly to ‘advise’ developing country governments on the privatisation of their public services.


Bilateral trade agreements - (EPAs) designed to open up markets in African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, exposing small-scale producers to overwhelming competition from powerful multinationals.



So how does a Government who courts the favour of multinationals one day turn round and tell them that they cannot make more money off even poorer people in the developing world?


I think this issue needs discussing.


How is the developing world ever going to pull itself out of poverty if the 'Developed' world continues to rape it?

First I'd like to say how proud I am that our government wiped out so much developing country debt a few years ago. It was a brave step in the right direction so thankyou!
BUT
I've just been shopping and bought a whole load of stuff ridiculously cheaply - I've no idea what sort of suffering has gone into making them. If I did know I would be more likely to buy British or European. So I would like to see that in future:

1. all imported products, not just imported food, should be traceable to their origins

2. consumers of imported products should be made informed what methods were used in their production

3. the Government should not expect campaign groups and concerned individuals to find this information, they must put the information out there to all the public.

Not all multinationals are monsters, though.

My dh is VP of a very large pharmaceutical company which has sent £35 millionworth of free Aids drugs to Africa. No fanfare, no publicity, they've just done it. They're also innoculating so many people againtst another very serious illness that it is on target to be eradicated by 2010.

Don't always just blame multinationals. The individuals need to take some responsibility for themselves.

Peace would probably help wouldn't it?

Just in case you are sceptical about rights-based development (and I have heard at least one senior civil servant who works for you express scepticism) ponder on the conclusion of Darrow and Marks in a 2005 article on this. They point to the UN Human Development Report of 2002 which notes that at current rates of development it would take 130 years to eradicate world hunger. Relying on "us" and our "charity" to sort this out is undoubtedly failing. Perhaps empowering people to claim a right is the only way to facilitate serious change?

God, this is huge, and I am no expert, but would prioritise

Clean free water
Composting toilets in every village
Microbusinesses and microloans for women - as that Nobel Prize Winner developed
Communities solving their own problems
Education education education - on health and sex and BF
Force retailers in the UK to be totally transparent about how their products are made and by whom
Much more rigorous legislation about imperialist activities by huge multinationals
in developing countries

I know its a little thing, but I see no reason why unused medicines that are not out of date can't be sent there. We donate old clothes and sometimes canned goods, but I understand that they are always short of medicine. How often do we all really finish our courses of antibiotics etc. Why can't a scheme be set up to make these available?

Well IMVVVHO trade has to be the starting point (as well as aid) - Fair Trade has to become mainstream, in everyone's conscious minds as they go about choosing their weekly shop in the UK. THe "Fair Trade" logo does guarentee a good level of pay for workers as well as a commitment to set up and run community groups in develping countries, so the FT logo shuold be actively prmotoed by gov't and by shops (esp. big supermarkets).

That's not to say that all big complanies are evil slave-labourers though - Waitrose do great community projects with its suppliers, and other comapanies are v. ethical without having the FT logo (although I do see the FT logo as a "gold standard"). IMO the thing is that when we shop, we must have in our minds "Where has this come from? Who made it? Were they paid a just wage? Were they exploited?"

It's such a complex issue, though, isn't it?

I second the idea that unused medicines could be sent there.

And how about dissolving the debts of the Third World? Something the ex PM said he would do, but so far has failed.

We need to deploy some of those troops that are coming home from Basra to accompany food and medicine aid in Third World countries as most of the stuff is being pillaged before it's even got there.

We need to be tougher on the governments to stamp out corruption and stop relying on foreign aid, they should do more to support their own people and we should give them incentives for doing so.

We should stop the supply of weapons to these countries, many of the guns they use are British and American ex-service guns - where did they get them from?

We should organised more exchanges of medical students so that our students get to practice their skills over there where they are desperately needed, and their students get to train in our hospitals.

Create a fair system of trade within the international markets;

Free education for all;

Develop and encourage use of sustainable agricultural methods;

Encourage talented members of indiginous populations to stay and contribute to their own countries (this is NOT an anti-immigration comment!);

Use all diplomatic powers available to assist in the cessation of wars/conflicts leading to suffering;

In the short term, what about a government backed promotion of child sponsership of children within the developing world? This may solve many of the problems for the next generation. Why doesn't Gordon Brown ask his friends in the City to sponser a certain number of children, perhaps a million to begin with?

This thread keeps popping up at the top of active convos even when the last post is half an hour old! It's making me ever so slightly paranoid.

me too rhuby

While it may seem logical, the sending of medicines to developing countries is actually really unhelpful, and in many cases detrimental. What they need are large quantities of a relatively limited number of standardised drugs - not small numbers of different things. Small sacale drug donations cause massive problems of logistics, as well as possibly leading to mistakes - i.e. different dosages / instructions not in local languages / different names etc. There are clear guidelines devised by WHO based on past experiences about how and under what circumstances drugs can and should be donated.

Get tough on drug companies to make it easier and cheaper to send basic drugs to these countries. The charges they set for Aids drugs for example, is phenomenal and their governments simply can't afford it.

Go on, offer them peerages if they send free drug supplies to poor countries!

as a knee jerk reaction probably the best thing to do would be to stop destabilising regions of the world by getting involved in messy and protracted wars

Stop setting up puppet dictators who rob their countries blind....

for a start

drop third world debt

Then stop multinationals from coming in and stripping natural resources BARE (e.g. forestry, diamonds, etc.) and leaving people with barren and unproductive land....

Yup, Nigeria et al need seriously sorting.

And its BP and the like largely to blame - that country should be sooooooooo rich.

Of course corruption plays a part, but really I think multi-nationals have a lot to answer for in that part of the world. There should be tighter controls on what they can and can't do in a local community and proper recompnese for what they take from a phenomenally rich country left incredibly poor.

I wholeheartedly support the measures on health listed below. I think this government has a pretty good record so far on international development and I hope you can make this work.

The only addition I can think of immediately would be more funding for research into non-profitable medical causes - eg malaria.

On tackling poverty in general, I agree that trade and corruption are big issues.

perhaps the uk should lead by example on corruption by reopening the investigation into corruption at BAE?

re trade: I think the fair trade scheme is only a sticking plaster itself. what we need is a world bank which pushes for humantarian / labour law reform rather than economic reform and privatisation. that would get things moving more quickly.

Finally I think the UK must also stop offering trade guarantees for military deals, especially those which involve countries which can ill afford new hardware. joined up government and all that.

good luck in the new job!

Controlling corruption is critical, but sadly it means controlling human nature to a large extent. Where there are gains to be made unfortunately there will always be people who will take advantage and put their own preceived needs and -sometimes- greed first. I live in a country which would be classed as developing, although not 3rd world, and which has received and is still receiving a considerable amount of foreign aid. Sadly it is almost par for the course for there to be someone corrupt administering the aid and skimming off the top for their own pockets. Not just with aid either - in hospitals you have to give a decent bribe to get proper treatment, and even then you can't trust that a doctor is actually performing properly.

We are spoilt in the UK because there are long established systems in place to ensure that corrpution and unprofessional behaviour and practice can ultimately be tackled in some way. How or even if such systems can be created in other countries remains to be seen, and would need to be worked on using local knowledge and people.

Normal hardworking families want to move on but it seems they will always be overshadowed by the greedy corrput crowd.

I am not very up on all this, my opinions are really a stab in the dark type thing but I always though about nurse/doctor training etc. to have 6 months or so in a developing country - even setting up education facilities for UK based nurses and doctors - I really wildly presume it would be cheaper than setting up in the UK and at the same time providing nurses and doctors?

I really don't see how this can be done externally.

The problems are within the countries - the corruption at government level is huge and however much money you pour in it will be creamed off by those in power. Remember China had a faminie whilst it sold its grain to the free world. So I think one has to be realistic about how much you can achieve from outside.

We need to take into account the culture of the countries that you are targetting. One poster has asked why women continue to have children in war ravaged Darfour. I expect that it is cultural - tradition dictates that you have a large family because you can expect to loose children to illness, famine and war and so you have a large family because when you are old (40+) you will be relying on your children to look after and feed you.

I also think you would do well to leave the whole thing to the NGOs who are established in those countries. You are a government - not an aid organisation. Ask the NGOs what they want and give it to them with the minimum of fuss and red tape. They are the experts in this field. You are a bureaucrat. Leave it to them.

But this raises points so much deeper. There are regimes in the poorest parts of the world that flourish due to negligence on the parts of the western governments. So many economic problems - it makes your head spin.

I see this as a sticking plaster. A valiant one in principle but no more.

-The education of girls

To educate girls about their reproductive systems before they become pregnant, to give them something other than motherhood to aim for.

-Improved women's rights

Including the right to say no to their husband, and the right to inherit. Equality would be good, but let's start with mere improvements.

-a serious legal penalty for rape, including marital rape.

So that when she says no, it is heard. Less pregnancies will result, less financial strain on the families.

-free contraception - hormonal and barrier

See above - less babies, more money.

-free voluntary sterilisation

see above.

This thread appears to have been 'stickied'.

I would actually start doing something rather than relying on cheap publicity stunts like getting the International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander to ask potluck questions on a parenting site

Did I say pot luck questions

Sorry I meant spout party political bullshit

ecapeFrom: we should aimfor those things, but how do propose to enforce laws in other countries? Can we really push other governments to change their penal laws? We can ask them to introduce things (eg a mnimum wage, which is what I was thinking of below), but asking them to change their sentences for rape is a much bigger thing isn't it?

yes, yadayada, world poverty is "party political bullshit". I don't know why we bother, we should all just go home to our nice heated, well stocked houses. and the politicians should just get on with stuff without bothering to tell anyone what they're doing.

"why we bother" ??

"politicians should just get on with stuff without bothering to tell anyone what they're doing"

So you think they're telling you exactly what they're doing ??

Ok
Not looking for a fight BUT
I was not making a comment on world poverty I was making a comment on politicians, and why exactly this question is on MN, surely they have enough unelected quango's to tell them what they want.
I am not niave enough to think that Mr Alexander is going to be hanging onto my every word about how to sort out World poverty, much as i'd love to, preferably in less than 50 words

hanging on to your every word - well obviously not, but can you not give a politician the benefit of the doubt ever? if this was purly an exercise in getting labour's message accross it's avery nefficient one in the scheme of things.

"inefficient"

On a macro-level, I often wonder whether or not it would be possible for the economically wealthiest nations to "adopt" the economically poorer ones with the commitment from both sides to achieve globally agreed objectives.

I realise that this sounds suspiciously colonial, but I was thinking more of the obligation being on the wealthier countries to help tackle the key issues and provide key investment and training.

On a micro-level - here is an unashamed plug for my charity of choice - does wonderful work.

www.ethiopiaid.org.uk/

I was just trying to work out efficient/inefficient

Weeeeeeeeelll its not exactly a lot of effort is it.. supply one photo, one press release type question, wait a few weeks as 250 thou MN'er read it as its strangely stuck to the top of active convo's (!) get flunkies to ponder answers and delete my and other expletives and come back with crowd pleasing answers

But I take you're point about benefit of the doubt

(without giving it)

1. Issue every Person in the third world where malaria rife with free mosquito nets
2.Educate the girls/women, this will be passed on automatically to the next generation
3. Stop selling arms to third world countries
4. Every person living in a first world country who is fit and able should spend 2 years community servics in a third world country, with a guaranteed return to their old job. A late gap year and no-one is exempt
5. Invest in small local businesses in the third world
6. microbanking (give out small loans for people to start up small businesses)it is tried and it works
7. Encourage ethical and fair trade companies with financial incentives

Interesting manifesto, Wrinkly

Just what would all these enforced migrants be doing in developing countries? What skills do they have to offer? Some people will have some skills to offer but the vast majority will not.

Stop wasting money on murderous illegal wars for a start. To be fair GB is clearly trying to get out of the killing fields of Iraq asap, but maybe he should have thought about that before voting for it in the first place.
Come down hard on governments and theocracies which want aid while denying women basic human rights.
Make it foreign policy to take action when you are repeatedly told that a genocide is on the way that will involve displacing millions of people.
Stop wasting money on bloated 'consultants' such as Price Waterhouse. It is OBSCENE.
Work with the major charities instead. they know what they are doing.
Clean water, women's rights and education have to be priorities. With education for women right up there at the top.

Oh and give funding to the doctors urgently trying to find a vaccine for malaria

housing, sanitation, education and basic facilities to stop diseases like diarrhoea from killing. also facilities for safe pregnancy/childbirth - spend a bit more than something like 32c on a woman's health in countries like sudan and afghanistan. oh and stop the medical brain drain to western countries.

Put an end to the right to patent life forms, esp. plants like rice (which can be made GM) and spices like tumeric (which are currently free to use as medicines but which pharmaceutical companies are eyeing up).

Stop growing a ridiculous amount of food for the 'developed' world in countries that do not have food security, and allow them to go back to feeding themselves.

Understand that the local culture matters and needs to be respected. Sometimes this is necessary in order to facilitate change (encouraging contraception for example), sometimes it may be that 'our' way isn't actually right for a particular community.

Sorry, also agree with much of the rest of thread but didn't want to repeat.

mosquito nets yes, but do pay attention to local custom/diff habits of mozzies: in some countries they are not just out at night therefore BEDnets a bit useless - also families might sleep together therefore giant bednight might be better than single/double

appropriate solutions for diff cultures

Basic and effective public health measures: clean water, sanitation, vaccination, contraception. Then education for all (ie including girls and women), and a commmitment from us in the developed world to think about where our cheap goods come from, and why they are so damn cheap. Fair trade on the widest possible scale.

Many good suggestions here. My only contribution is to re-emphasise the importance of the re-distribution of wealth from wealthy elite to the majority. Fair trade, micro-credit and education are the main means that this can be achieved (and not pointless pr exercises).

everything aloha said

The 3rd world countries are so poor,the Iraq, Iran, & relating areas are torn apart by war,Mexico has ooddles of resources, but for some reason they are not developing them, & the natives just want to get into America & get jobs, or welfare.American border states (with Mexico)are having a terrible time trying to keep Mexicans in Mexico.I wish these wars would stop.Maybe things would get better.When I see on the TV the poor innocent mothers & children, I feel like crying.

Is it me or are there now 2 threads exactly the same?

I'm beginning to think I ought to see someone again, if no-one can see it I'm going to panic!

Hope that Mr Alexander pays attention to all of this and that this isn't just a PR gimmick. Sorry to be cynical, but please do LISTEN Mr Alexander, because I don't feel as though politicans give a flying fuck about what we, the people, think. I often feel as though we are treated like children and they are adults who 'know best'.

what's going on? how has this thread split into two?

I have a lot to time for yaddayah's pov/query. I too am pretty sceptical as to the value of consulting us which is why I asked why he's asking us and who else he is asking. policies and practice conceived in the west (by experts, let alone random members of the public) have frequently failed to address the issues. having said that it's clear from some of the answers here that there are a lot of people who realise that it's not as simple as doling out money or medecine.

education that empowers people to formulate their own solutions; consultation (ask people living in poverty rather than a random selection of your own voters)and participation (stop thinking of development as something we do to other people). As I said below if we carry on as we are it will take over a 100 years to eradicate world hunger.

I think one is tagged to the top and the other takes its normal journey up and down the page but they're actually one and the same thread

I too find it a bit odd. There are thousands of development consultants, in government, in academia and in various think-tanks and charities. I doubt that there is any sane suggestion on this thread that Mr Alexander and his advisers won't be aware of. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this sort of thread, but I don't understand the reason for it.

Phew! It's not just me then!

I empathise with yaddayadda, I'm cynical and wouldn't be surprised if his PR put out an article all about how he is consulting with mothers about political issues as he values their opinions and mothers are so important and please vote for me blah blah blah.

However, if one point, just one point, that we have made, sinks in then I don't care. It is an important issue and I'm fed up of our government making promises to eradicate third world debt and make children a priority etc etc and then ignore the wishes of the people by blowing up countries and creating a terrorism hysteria.

Put your money where your mouth is Mr Alexander. I'm ashamed to be British right now, we've cocked up big time. Put things right. Cancel the debt these countries owe to us, get tough on oil and drug companies, get tough on Zimbabwe and others (it's ok to bomb Saddam for crimes against humanity but President dickface gets away with it because BP aren't interested), get your finger out and fulfil the promises made by our ex PM.

Rhubarb for PM!

Oh, and stop privatising essential sanitary services (like water and sewerage) in developing countries just to see what will happen. What happens is that the poorest people, and those without legal tenancy, end up without potable water and swimming in their own sewage. You don't need two brains to work that one out. Hell, you don't even have to be Scottish.

I must admit I'm uncomfortable with this staying at the top of active convos, and I too don't understand the purpose behind it.

Here he is looking swell!

Is it me or are all these MPs getting younger these days?

star - they were listening!

police men too rhubarb. and as for police women - don;t even go there - I had a horrible experience not so long ago where I became convinced an intruder was in the house. I called the police. I was "rescued". by 3 women carrying torches and batons who were, on average, about 10 years younger than me. blimey did I feel a prat

I think I'll sign ds up for Popehood early then!

"Creams, ointments, sticking plasters..."

An unusually honest summary of government policy. This country, committed to a National Health Service at home, should argue against the privatisation of healthcare (and water, and education etc) in the developing world instead of pushing G.A.T.S. and T.R.I.P.S. policies with one hand while applying sticking-plaster with the other.


( Husband of "ByTheSea")

I fear we are getting to the nub of the problem, or at least one of the nubs <briefly ponders whether it is possible to have multiple nubs>. The UK is signatory to all kinds of treaties and conventions that tie its hands comprehensively WRT development policy. I think the privatisation of healthcare, santitation and so in the developing world is an absolute abomination, but unless the UK extricates itself from the WTO and so on (which ain't gonna happen under Gordon Brown), I suspect any Secretary of International Development is going to have his/her hands firmly tied. Let's face it - even Clare Short couldn't get much done.

Another thought - we're not meeting the UNDP's target of 0.7 per cent on development aid yet, are we? That's something this government could do without having to ask the permission of the US.

Education, for girls in particular.
Roads, good ones, everywhere. Not only so that aid can get in, but so that people can travel between villages / towns, get to the nearest school, health centre or whatever efficiently.
Microcredit and loans for small businesses, and so that wells can be dug. Any way possible to give people control over their own lives.
I really liked the idea above about twinning rich countries with less developed ones. Perhaps every school in the UK could be twinned with one elsewhere? Our local scout troop is twinned with one in Malawi, and has raised about £4000 in the last few years on top of their own fundraising needs to keep the group going. That's from a rural village with a population of 2000, in a not-particularly-well-off area.

Give more visas, for people from developing countries to come and work in Europe. They will send the money where it's most needed.

Or how about sponsoring colleges and universities in the countries themselves, to train the professionals they need?

What might be interesting to look at is how the EU managed to take Ireland from being one of the poorest nations to the richest....

(I am as cynical as others re the movtives behind this thread, but cant resist giving my opinion anyway)

I am an academic in the field of Development. It's good to hear about a focus on poverty, health and healthcare systems. Lack of access to decent and affordable healthcare plays a major role in the generation of poverty, as I'm sure you are aware. I'm also sure you know, as so many have pointed out here already, that empowering women is vital not only for better health, but also for tackling poverty.

However, I also agree strongly with posters who point out that getting serious about tackling poverty means creating a level playing field in international trade. Tariff barriers against exports from poor countries make it difficult for poor people to help themselves. Let's hope that you include your colleague Peter Mandelson, the EU Trade Commissioner, in your discussions about tackling poverty at the global level.

Others have written about the problem of corruption. The 'good governance' agenda is commendable, but the BAE debacle means that your Department now has an uphill struggle to be taken seriously on this issue. Perhaps you need to talk to your colleague David Miliband about how to reconcile Britain's security interests with its commitment to good governance in developing countries. It would be interesting to overhear the conversation.

I welcome your initiative - the more consultation with the public, the better. However, I wonder quite what you are hoping to achieve. I hope this consultation is not at the expense of discussion with practitioners and academics in the field of Development. There are plenty of very knowledgeable professionals working in the field of healthcare, reproductive health and poverty who would be only too glad to share their expertise with you.

agree with Rhubarb and others. BTW Rhuby, email me again - I went on holiday and your email has got lost in a welter of offers from young women who want to show me their naked holiday snaps

Give tax relief to companies and people investing their profits directly into health care & educational needs; ie. Microsoft,Tesco,Wooly's, Joe Blog's etc., funding schools, hospitals in areas of dire poverty, deserve tax relief proportionate to their giving.

I don't really have any suggestions or solutions to the 'big' issues, but through being involved in charities such as Send a Cow and The Mango Tree Foundation I'm aware that even a very small effort here (be it fundraising, or sending old school text books out to schools in Kenya & Tanzania), can have a massive impact on individuals and a trickle down effect on their families and communities.

With Charities such as Send a Cow the ethos is very much about empowering and equiping people with education and resources so that they can independently farm, set up orchards, trade with neighbours, set up businesses etc.

As I previously worked for the NHS (and my DH still does) I'm aware of the massive resource the NHS and teaching Universities have in this country. A resource that I'm sure with the right connections, communications and Govt. backing could be put to good use with information, up to date research, case histories, successful public health initiatives shared easily with our collegues in 3rd world countries.

How about a National twinning system where each Hospital, University, Medical School, Nursing School, (even down to GP surgeries) etc was twinned with a similar establishment abroad. There could be local and focused fundraising at this level, but more importantly a system where knowledge is encouraged to be shared.

So where's Dougie boy gone? Have we frightened him?

Agree with so many, ie policywonk, rhubabb, yaddayah aloha and hatwoman (lol re the rescue!!) Why are they asking us?

(but since you do...)

Sort out that trade tariff stuff
Peace

By all accounts educating the women is key
But it wont happen without population control

Don't forget climate change/global warming (again maybe an even bigger problem looming)

I firmly believe we need to pay the true cost of the stuff we use/consume/eat so the true cost of a cheap plastic toy has to include carbon neutralling the transport used to get it here and cleaning up the planet when we chuck it in the bin to buy next years must have plastic toy you get my point I think

can someone else please post on here. I don't want to finish it off Rhubarb where are you?

The launch last Wednesday was extremely positive. I’ve read your comments and your insights are helpful.

I will consult within my Department and post a more in-depth response by next Friday.

Many thanks for posting your comments on this vital subject – and I look forward to hearing from many more of you.

Cop Out!

Oh and Carrie, could you pleasy weasy put my pixie thread on homepage?

<waits patiently for DouglasAlexander to upload his profile, including pictures of small children eating messy food>

Don't think he has any. But he's definitely a "new man"!

Oh, the whole kids scenario will be contracted out, obviously.

Will he adopt third world children do you think?

Oh dear, I'll bet Carrie doesn't put my pixie thread onto the home page now, bummer!

You are very bouncy tonight Rhubarb. Positively Tiggerish.

Higher taxes for high earners with those taxes doing directly to Aid relief. Wages for people such as politicians, footballers, popstars and the like are just astronomical and out of control imo. People don't require that much money to live, certainly not footballers. The government should clamp down on this.

More support for Third World governments, get them included, make them responsible for their own people, encourage them to set up systems, do exchanges with their ministers so they can see how we tackle things here, closer relationships with them etc.

And stop gabbing on about how you are going to solve World Poverty, which is just a vote-grabbing hot topic that you politicans throw in every now and then to keep us happy, and actually DO something. I'll start taking more notice of our government once they start ACTING and stop TALKING.

Now can I have pixies on the home page?

As well as education for girls and women (and making it happen, so that it isn't prioritised for boys when resources mean that only one child can go to school etc...) and *sexual and reproductive rights* including sex education for girls so that there are options other than immediate motherhood, general equality in economic terms for men and women (ie *equality in pay, housing law, employment law and inheritance law*) so that women can have access to resources to live independently regardless of marital status or financial whims of husbands/male relatives; and some *serious legal and attitude-changing work on violence against women* (whether *domestic violence, sexual harassment/violence in the street or at work, sexual violence by soldiers/armed groups in armed conflict*)
and sort out the international trade laws, otherwise you are just tinkering around the edges

I echo concerns about hoping this consultation isn't to the detriment of some serious academic/thinktank/NGO consultations with experts.

looking forward to the detailed response

i think the amount everybody should have to pay a tiny amount (even 50p) on top of their council tax every month, then this excess should be used to provide the developing worlds with the things thye so desperatly need, its soooo wrong how we are all human beings, yet some of us have loads of money while some of us cannot even give our children a drink of water without the fear that they will die if the water is contaminated, grr i best stop there all i will be typing all night as this is something i feel VERY strongly towards.

take from the rich and give to the poor

World poverty is caused by politics.

However, it is no nations fault that the crisis in third world countries began, or continue.

Each country can only give what the government has earmarked, and in crisis, we as a nation send more.

This is no doubt passed on to us as taxes, as nothing in the world is free. We are kidding ourselves if we believe that.

Instead of short term band aids, we surely need to focus on particular areas, and only cease funding when that area is stable enough to support itself, even if meaning other areas have to wait a few months, or even a year.

I know in crisis, a year is not acceptable, but if we earmark a certain amount LESS each year for "short term" we can ensure that Long term gets priority. Short term will never work, as much of the benefit willbe lost when the short term aid ceases. It is not leaving a sustainable result.

It seems so much reporting is done on crisis funding, we dont hear much about ongoing development work. And we hear almost nothing about success stories.
Questions I would ask are :
Are there any that we have funded that are still ongoing, and what are we doing?
Did we follow the issue through to success?
What is the cost to the nation?

I believe agriculture, medicines and education are the first things that should be tackled. the older generation will not change, and cannot realistically be helped. But teh children can be taught, and the young adults shown how to teach their future children.

You cannot change a countries climate, which is a serious issue to consider. But what can be done to alleviate the effects of the weather. Disasters are usually weather related.

The International Health Partnership sounds like a promising concept; better coordination would be great if it would actually mean that the partnership acts as a 'one stop shop' for developing countries. In practice I'm afraid that it will result in just another talkshop - with many countries forced to continue their bilateral relations that all have there own specific demands.

I think it is a big jump from introducing the IHP to asking mums how they would solve 'global poverty' - that is an open invitation to get sidetracked.

Specifially on improving health - I don't think you will get anywhere if not starting with the basics of clean water & adequate sanitation. If those two are in place - countless benefits will follow immediately; health improves dramatically as watercarried diseases decline & hygiene practice improves; people's dignity and self esteem will improve massively with adequate sanitation - women in particular will benefit, and will also be a lot safer from attacks & rape; girls won't have to spend hours and hours to get water, meaning they can get into education and move forwards...

Until good water & sanitation are in place (and don't forget the large numbers of people in slums) - any other health plans will be doomed to failure.

Both the government & DFID are of course very aware of this already - (see your recent enquiry in these issues). What needs to happen now is that this knowledge is actually put into action - don't bother with more working groups on policy & other bla, bla - we all need to know what needs to happen; it is up to you to now get into action - continue to support work that is already being done and accept that there are no quick fixes and that this is going to take years & years of work; be prepared to commit to long term funding of partners who deliver on the ground and allow them time to build services up sustainably & don't be tempted into rush jobs that look good in a logframe but will be lying useless before even the final reporting is done.

clean water, proper sanitation, built sustainably and together with communities - the rest will follow!

A charity tax? Everyone who earns over a certain amount, say £50k pa, has to give a percentage to charity. The percentage goes up the higher a wage earner you are.

And a cap on wages to stop them spiralling out of control such as footballers wages. It is ludicrous to think of all this money floating around that even they, cannot spend because the amounts are so high they are almost fictional. This should be stopped. No-one needs that amount of money to live on, it is wasteful in the extreme.

This one hits pretty close to home. I was born in Africa. My father was a prominent politician and I remember watching his frustration as he dealt with aid donors and organisations such as IMF and World Bank. He said that the biggest stumbling block to economic progress and development in Africa was that Africans were not being given the opportunity to trade on equal terms with their Western counterparts.

Twenty years on, the story is still the same as the World Trade Organisation tries to bully developing countries into accepting abysmal terms of trade.

As an African I know that the majority of Africans do not wake up in the morning thinking about their next aid handout because most of them never even see it.

As a general rule, aid comes with conditions attached and in Africa where red tape, inefficiency and corruption is endemic, a lot of aid does not reach the people who need it most.

It is unrealistic to believe that aid is a way to fight poverty in the long term or indeed to use it as a means of sustaining growth. The work done in Africa by charities such as Oxfam and Christian Aid is admirable, however a continuous reliance on aid can be debilitating for its recipients because it robs them of the desire, drive and confidence to strive for a better life for themselves. As a child I often heard my father say, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him how to fish and he can eat for the rest of his life." This saying rings never more true than in the case of Africa today.

A money problem is not solved by throwing money at the problem, but by changing attitudes towards money. In the same way the problem of poverty in Africa will not be solved by a constant flow of aid, rather by equipping Africans with the necessary tools, knowledge, skills and opportunities to work themselves out of poverty.

Africans are proud, industrious people who would enthusiastically embrace trading opportunities that would not only enable them to keep their heads above water, but give them hope of planning for their future.

It's not as if Africa has nothing to offer. There is a huge global market for African products, be it cocoa from Ghana, coffee from Uganda, tea and green beans from Kenya. These and other products are consumed in enormous quantities in the developed world, yet only a tiny fraction of these imports into the West are by businesses that are controlled by Africans

Better trading opportunities can breathe much-needed life into African communities, making them more vibrant and productive.

I believe that there is a time for aid and a place for trade. The fight against poverty in Africa is far better served by empowering Africans, by giving them the chance to take charge of their future, allowing them an equal footing on the world stage to compete with their counterparts in richer countries. This would not only reduce the aid burden on the richer countries, but also reduce the reliance upon them by developing countries for their survival. Trade should reflect, not just the enormous power that the richer countries wield, but also the increasing globalisation of world markets.

I think the whole problem of poverty especially amongst women and children is a global one of not recognising womens right.

We all recognise that mothering and parenting are essential for the growth and development of our children yet mothering in all countries even the rich countires is unpaid and unrecognised.

Many mohters in wealthy countries have limited rights, some are financially dependent on spouses for the duration of rearing children, others want to work but cannot afford childcare, others have to work and have no childcare, so children suffer.

We should start by giving salaries to all mothers or primary ccarers in rich countries, so that mothers are independent financially and children will not suffer any loss of lifestyle if marriage breaks down. Then get campaigns going to encourage other countries to follow suit.

Richer countries could offer a salary to Mothers/primary carers and a tithing of 10% could be offered to help fund salaries for mothers in Third World countries until these countries include thier mothers in their public service budgets.

just one statistic that i heard from babymilkaction chap:

more children could be saved by breastfeeding alone, than by clean water or vaccination programmes.

[paraphrased from unicef]




leave mothers to brestfeed, stop interferring in internal market structures, increase literacy amoungst women, give women oppurtunity to make a stand in local politics, access to clean water and sanitation, stop forcing GM crops on the poor (as they need further costs), help stop wars (creates famine, poor infrastructures, abuse, rape).

the fact that breastfeeding women can *on it's own* can provide better health for womenin rural communities, is what money should be focused on.

but, again it's men talking to men about 'male' issues.

ie. making money.



i doubt if Douglas Alexander would want to discuss breastfeeding, but i'm happy for him to prove me wrong!

I'd say consult the people concerned! If you want to support people, which is great, ask them first how best to do that. As they are the people dealing with the problems, they will be the people who know best what's needed.
So consult first, without assuming anything beforehand.


I like the better coordination bit. Not sure to do it on a limited (just health focussed) scale is as helpful as doing it on a far bigger, all-encompassing scale; the fewer organizations the better...

NB: Roger Riddel, 'Does foreign aid really work?' (Oxford University Press) is very illuminating.

is this person going to get back in touch? i am very curious as to what he thinks of our ideas.

Thank you for all your comments. I have tried to focus my response around the main themes you raised. I know it’s quite long but you provided such a breadth and depth of comments, I wanted to try to do justice to them.

We started this discussion to talk about what we can do for mums and for children in developing countries. This followed the launch by the PM and I of an International Health Partnership in September.

You gave me lots of food for thought on a wide range of topics. Do have a look on our website for more in-depth information about DFID’s ongoing work in all these areas: www.dfid.gov.uk And if you have any further specific questions, please feel free to contact our Public Enquiry Point at enquiry@dfid.gov.uk

Douglas

Rt. Hon. Douglas Alexander
Secretary of State for International Development

1. Health

Health workers
You asked about how we can reduce the negative effects of the so-called ‘brain drain’. The UK operates a code of practice for international recruitment of health workers. This means that the UK government does not actively recruit from countries that do not want to lose their skilled staff. Last year some private sector employers also opted into the code.

Unused medicines
Some of you asked about how we can use more donated medicines. They can really help but if they are not known to local health professionals or delivered in the wrong doses they can do more harm than good. Our policy is to support drugs donated through individual agreements between the donor and country.

I agree we need to ensure money and medical supplies are not diverted by corruption or mismanagement. In early 2008, DFID will begin pilot operations of Medicines Transparency Alliance: a scheme aimed at introducing greater transparency in the procurement and distribution of medical supplies.

Medical Research
We support research and development into diseases such as Malaria. And in Kenya, DFID has committed £47.4 million for social marketing of insecticide treated nets (ITNs). We aim to reach 60% coverage of children under five and 40% coverage of pregnant women by the end of 2007, by selling 11.1 million nets at highly subsidised and affordable prices

2. Promoting women’s rights
As a father who is incredibly proud of his three year old daughter I am particularly conscious that the face of poverty in developing countries is overwhelmingly female. I agree with the point many of you raised: empowering women must be a key priority for us all, and it is a fundamental part of DFID’s work.

Girls’ education
DFID has committed £8.5 billion to support education in developing countries over the period 2006/7-2015/16. In Nigeria DFID contributed £26 million to a girls’ education project in 6 northern states which has increased girls’ enrolment by 10-15% in just one year. Each additional year girls spend in school, is estimated to boost her eventual wages by 10-20 per cent.

Providing an income
DFID supports four large micro-finance projects specifically designed to help give more women an income and an additional ten projects providing loans and financial services to both men and women. An example is the Kashf foundation in Pakistan which has 125,000 female customers.

Violence against women
We consider this a critical area to address and have a number initiatives aimed at tackling violence. For example, earlier this year we committed £3.2m to UNIFEM’s programme to support women’s engagement in peace-building and prevent sexual violence in conflict and post-conflict situations, working in Afghanistan, Haiti, Liberia, Rwanda, Timor Leste, and Uganda. In Sierra Leone, we are providing support to strengthen Family Support Units in the Sierra Leone Police, which were established to respond to incidents of sexual, physical and emotional abuse of women and children. They will investigate such cases, bring perpetrators to justice and facilitate healing and reintegration of survivors.

3. Population in developing countries
There were a number of points made on this, so let me set out my views:

99% of population growth will take place in developing countries – this growth will create new pressures, particularly on water, on basic services such as education and health, on agricultural land, and in town and cities.

That said, the Government does not try to control population in the UK and neither should we overseas. We want people to make informed choices in their lives, including the number of children they have. DFID is helping to provide this information in developing countries, as well as supplying around 150 million condoms per year.

On a wider level, we support increased education, better health, greater equality and improved reproductive health – these policies offer individuals and families both choice and opportunity.

4. Debt cancellation
Thanks to the efforts of debt campaigners (and I think quite a number of you were part of this campaign), 22 countries, including 18 African countries, have now had all debts to the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and African Development Fund cancelled under the Multilateral Debt Relief Initiative. They have also received 100% debt cancellation from the UK and many other governments and other creditors.

Nine other countries are already receiving interim relief and will get full debt cancellation when they reach the required standards (demonstrating that the savings will be used for poverty reduction). A further 12 countries remain eligible for Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) debt relief.

The UK meets and exceeds its commitments under HIPC and provides 100% debt cancellation. We have also written off nearly all old aid loans. In Uganda and Zambia, debt relief has helped make possible the removal of user fees for health care. In Tanzania, debt relief has helped provide primary education for over 96% of children.

5. Climate Change
As many of you pointed out, it will be the world's poorest people - who are least responsible for the problem - who will be hardest hit by climate change. And people in developing countries have the least resources to deal with the impact. For example, as much as 70% of people in Africa rely on farming. And scientists are telling us that by 2020, climate change could reduce some farming harvests in Africa by 50%! What will this mean for people's lives and livelihoods?

So for me, climate change is more than an environmental or an economic issue - it's inherently a development challenge. We must really do all we can - as governments, citizens and businesses alike - not only to prevent dangerous climate change but also to help poor countries prepare for the impacts.

6. Trade
Several of you asked about our trade policies. DFID aims to realise the UK’s long-term vision: a world trading system that is fair as well as free, with greater prosperity for developing and developed countries. Gordon Brown asked me to chair the Cabinet Committee on trade policy and make sure our policies on aid, debt reduction and trade policy fit together. We are determined to ensure the Economic Partnership Agreements (EPAs) between the EU and developing countries meet developing countries interests.

I know you discussed how and where clothes are made. I think people want to be confident that when they get dressed in the morning, it’s just their clothes that have been stitched up – not the workers that have made them. DFID has provided nearly £2m to the Fairtrade Foundation since 1997. Its great to see a 50 percent rise in sales of Fairtrade products from 2005 to 2006

7. Privatisation
Some of you raised concerns about privatisation. I believe that it is principally the private sector that creates economic growth. But the state's capacity to shape the incentives and opportunities for private sector development is also crucial. Sustainable growth means the state must create a favourable climate for business, but in ways that operate in the interests of society as a whole. We judge the success or failure of any privatisation - of infrastructure, roads, water or power - will depend on the political/economic governance capacity and willingness to regulate in the best results for both sustainable economic growth and the interests of all, including poor and vulnerable people. That is how we look at privatisation.

8. Fighting corruption
I take this very seriously. DFID is working constantly to ensure that UK aid is used for the purpose intended. Strict accounting, procurement and auditing procedures are required for all UK aid programmes. Where necessary, independent auditors track expenditure, and technical staff strengthen management arrangements and oversight. All allegations of corruption are investigated and, if necessary, corrective action taken.

Secondly, the UK is helping governments to investigate and deal with alleged corruption through the courts – especially where money has flowed through UK jurisdictions. The UK Serious Fraud Office has provided legal assistance to court cases in a large number of countries including Zambia, Malawi and Sierra Leone. In Zambia, DFID supported the country in a case against former President Chiluba: the Judge ordered £26 million to be seized and returned to Zambian people.

Thirdly, DFID always assesses both our government and civil society’s commitment and actions to reduce corruption when deciding how to provide aid and what safeguards are required. We are now regularly reviewing the ‘quality of governance’ in making decisions about the provision of aid.

And fourthly, we are taking action to reduce the scope for international bribery and money laundering and to promote better codes of conduct for international businesses and public contracting.

9. Rights-based development
A number of members also point to the concept of rights-based development – in particular, Amartya Sen’s definition of poverty. DFID is committed to working with a range of partners, and Sen’s work on freedoms underpins our understanding of poverty and how we tackle it.

In fact, Mr Sen’s work is mentioned in two key DFID publications – the “Making Governance Work for Poor People” white paper published last year, and in the related publication “Governance, Development and Democratic Politics.” (Both these documents are available on our website).

Oh, there you are Douglas. Thought you'd been taken out the back and shot after the election-that-never-was incident.

<goes off to read mammoth post>

Well, too much private sector stuff for my taste. It's all very well to say that the proof of privatising utilities in developing countries will be in the eating: in practice, by the time people in these countries realise that privatisation is disastrous, the governments are locked into fixed-term contracts that they can't escape, and the private companies are busy asset-stripping former public utilities and depriving those in squatter settlements of sanitary facilities.

I would like to know whether we are yet meeting the UN's target of 0.7% of GDP on development aid.

I applaud the work DFID is going WRT violence against women, but would like to know how this issue is being addressed in Darfur.

Completely agree with DFID's stance on population.

Well done on debt relief. I think this is one of the (few) areas in which there is still a discernible difference between the Labour and Conservative parties.

Climate change - if that is what the government really believes, then it's going to have to get tough in all sorts of ways (motorists, aviation industry, local councils, domestic energy consumption and so on) and I just don't see any evidence of it happening at the moment.

I don't believe that the UK is doing anything like enough to ensure fair trade deals for developing countries.

Mind you, I'm probably speaking into the void here, aren't I? You're long gone.