Concerns regarding one of your surveys

[AbigailAdams]

I had a quick look at this survey and have real concerns about the paragraph after the 3rd question. My concerns are namely that often lack of contact is not down to administrative difficulties, but down to abuse and a system like this could mean a further tool of abuse. Plus isn't this putting the onus on women, once again, to facilitate contact for the men?

I also find it a bit that this is in conjunction with a so far unnamed father's rights group, many of which are not exactly known for their co-operation with mothers. I am feeling really uneasy about this. Does anyone else? And could we have a bit more information about what this would entail?

[AnyFucker]

Hello, I feel a bit of a fraud commenting here as I am not a separated or separating parent. However, I do have concerns about how such a system could be abused.

If all was hunky-dory and amicable, then fine. Although there are other media to sync diaries and communicate between families that no longer reside in the same house.

All it takes (for me, personally) though is one look at the Relationships board to see it could easily be yet another stick for an uncooperative (and sometimes abusive) ex-partner to beat the other with.

Surely such a service would have to be hosted, which kinda defeats the object ?

I am happy to be shot down by a shedload of people who think this is a great idea though, especially ones that are currently going through a separation...nothing would give me more pleasure.

[AbigailAdams]

Yes AF. My feelings too.

[RebeccaMumsnet]

Hi all,

Just wanted to say that we aren't ignoring you, we have seen this.

We've passed your comments onto our insight team who will be along shortly.

[DowagersHump]

This makes me really uneasy - what are you hoping to find out? Who is paying for this? What have you asked them about why they find they can't use 'normal' means of contacting their ex-partners?

And finally, what use is any of this data if you're not asking what the parental responsibility of the respective parties are? Surely, without that info, the rest of it is pretty useless?

[SouthernComforts]

I agree with the above, and said so in the survey. This will only work and be useful for parents with an ok relationship. It could work for me and my ex because my dd has a lot of medication/appointments and currently I write out a calender by hand, put all important dates on there. It's a PITA and an app on our phones would be brilliant.

However, go back 18 months when contact was an issue and I had him arrested for harassment, it would have been a stick to beat me with and another messaging service to use to abuse me. There is huge scope for petty pointscoring too eg '12th November - Ex was 20 minutes late for pick up" etc.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

I am just very sceptical about the fact that mumsnet have not named the father's group to whom they are talking.

I think there's one that doesn't sound like it's run by a bunch of entitled whiners (can't remember its name, it's not one of the better-known ones) but most of them are not interested in the welfare of children, they're interested in the entitlements of men and they really do see it as women's jobs to facilitate their relationships with their children on their terms.

Mumsnet would be selling women and children down the river if it co-operated with men like that. Not for the first time - I haven't forgotten the way it tolerated MRA's the way Facebook tolerates rapists and I completely lost respect for them for it and haven't yet regained it. I really hope they're speaking to a decent father's org, not FNF or one of those other awful ones.

Viz the abuse thing, I really don't think that can be emphasised enough - people think feminists are rabid about DV because they are unaware of just how common it is: figures show that it is a major factor (if not a cause) in a very large percentage of family breakdowns - Lundy Bancroft quotes 50% in the States, I'm not sure what the figure is here, but 1 in 4 is all women subjected to DV so it's reasonable to suppose that women who have separated, will be disproportionately more likely to be the victims of DV. That's a huge percentage. Any father's group which denies or minimises this, is shit, let's be clear: and so any work MN does with any father's group, will be fucking shit if MN allows the MRA agenda of pretending that DV is just a minimal side issue. When it comes to relationship breakdown, abuse is a huge issue and just because the rest of the media don't talk about it, doesn't mean MN shouldn't. If it doesn't, it's shit.

So to the app: how are you going to deal with the fact that a large percentage of participants will be abusive and without body language, tone of voice etc., a virtual mediator is simply not going to be able to pick that up?

[AbigailAdams]

That's a good point SouthernComforts, even in a non-abusive set there is certainly room for taking the piss.

Thank you Fastidia and SGM. Those points are exactly what bothered me about the survey and proposal.

[JustineMumsnet]

@FastidiaBlueberry

I am just very sceptical about the fact that mumsnet have not named the father's group to whom they are talking.

I think there's one that doesn't sound like it's run by a bunch of entitled whiners (can't remember its name, it's not one of the better-known ones) but most of them are not interested in the welfare of children, they're interested in the entitlements of men and they really do see it as women's jobs to facilitate their relationships with their children on their terms.

Mumsnet would be selling women and children down the river if it co-operated with men like that. Not for the first time - I haven't forgotten the way it tolerated MRA's the way Facebook tolerates rapists and I completely lost respect for them for it and haven't yet regained it. I really hope they're speaking to a decent father's org, not FNF or one of those other awful ones.

Viz the abuse thing, I really don't think that can be emphasised enough - people think feminists are rabid about DV because they are unaware of just how common it is: figures show that it is a major factor (if not a cause) in a very large percentage of family breakdowns - Lundy Bancroft quotes 50% in the States, I'm not sure what the figure is here, but 1 in 4 is all women subjected to DV so it's reasonable to suppose that women who have separated, will be disproportionately more likely to be the victims of DV. That's a huge percentage. Any father's group which denies or minimises this, is shit, let's be clear: and so any work MN does with any father's group, will be fucking shit if MN allows the MRA agenda of pretending that DV is just a minimal side issue. When it comes to relationship breakdown, abuse is a huge issue and just because the rest of the media don't talk about it, doesn't mean MN shouldn't. If it doesn't, it's shit.

So to the app: how are you going to deal with the fact that a large percentage of participants will be abusive and without body language, tone of voice etc., a virtual mediator is simply not going to be able to pick that up?

Hiya,
This is the very early stages of a proposal to work together on a particular project and we are bound by confidentiality at this stage because it's a condition of the process, not because it's likely to be controversial.

For that reason we can't name the fathers' group right now, but I can tell you that we are not entirely dim. No really . We would in never choose to work in partnership with any group that Mumsnetters would be uncomfortable with. I have NO DOUBT that the dads' group we are talking to would not be difficult for anyone here to accept as a partner - it's not a group representing fathers who have separated, it is just a group for all dads, much like mumsnet is for mums.

Sorry to ask you to trust us, but trust us!

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Something else occurred to me.

I would want to know that any dad's group recognised non-payment of maintenance as financial abuse.

If not, I'd think they were shit.

Just sayin'

[FastidiaBlueberry]

I think my main issue is that I want any dad's group that MN talks to, to have a healthy awareness of the levels of abuse perpetrated by fathers and to just know that it is a real, serious problem and that it is wrong and to want to get rid of it instead of denying or minimising it like most of them do.

It's something that is so prevalent and widespread and the usual response from father's groups is "well women can be abusive too".

Which is just a shite response because it ignores the systematic nature of abuse perpetrated in the family by men, backed by the state and uncondemned in the main, by the rest of society. Women's abusive behaviour is not sanctioned and supported by the state and society and IMO any father's group worthy of mumsnet's attention, should have a proper awareness of that.

Having said that, I accept that if it's an organisation that is for dads in general, not separated dads, it might not have thought that much about it as the assumption is that they're dealing with reasonable happily functioning involved fathers. Which makes me wonder why they all need apps, why don't they just look at the kitchen calendar?