Have you come across fingerprinting in schools?

(41 Posts)
Melmagpie Wed 14-Nov-12 09:27:02

A friend is researching the prevalence of the fingerprinting of children in schools and I offered to post here - has anyone had experience of this? And if so was any parental consent obtained first?

Theas18 Wed 14-Nov-12 09:29:56

Yes and yes . Boys and parents consented. Lots of posts on here about it in the past. try search

Melmagpie Wed 14-Nov-12 09:31:00

thanks - I'll have a look.

Leeds2 Wed 14-Nov-12 09:42:34

We use it in the primary school library where I work. Parental consent is obtained and, if not given, the children are able to borrow books by scanning a reader barcode instead. (All children have barcodes, even if their fingerprints have been taken, because the fingerprint scanner is notoriously temperamental!).

DD's secondary school introduced it over the summer just gone. I think it is used for afternoon registration purposes. Parental consent was requested, and parents were asked to contact the school if they objected so that an alternative solution could be found.

Jingleflobba Wed 14-Nov-12 09:47:17

Yes, in DS's high school. Parent and child permission is obtained. It's also used in the other high school in our catchment area.

tiggytape Wed 14-Nov-12 10:02:43

Yes - it is used at most of our local high schools.
Permission is obtained but assumed (no back-up options were explained although I am sure they exist)
The reassurance was something along the lines of the print not being stored but convered into a unique code - something like that anyway. Most people didn't seem to be overly bothered and I don't know of anyone who opted out.

tiggytape Wed 14-Nov-12 10:03:02

converted not convered

boomting Wed 14-Nov-12 12:23:12

I've heard of it happening, but there's absolutely no way that I would let my children hand over such sensitive personal data for something so trivial.

stargirl1701 Wed 14-Nov-12 12:36:27

I work in a primary school in Scotland. The local caterer has fingerprinted the children in order to administer the school dinners. Parents had to give permission. Some opted out. It's a bit of a nightmare tbh. Initially the children were allowed to choose which finger - which of course they quickly forgot grin Company came back and redid the whole school using the right index finger.

eatyourveg Wed 14-Nov-12 12:49:25

dc have it in for the school library - a letter came home first asking for permission - it wasn't compulsory

OneMoreMum Wed 14-Nov-12 13:01:40

Our school uses it for school dinners (as do quite a few locally). It's great because there's no way they can lose their money / account card and I can pay into their account online, and even check what they have been eating.
It's only one finger, not the same as taking a full set of finger prints from a crime point of view, and all electronic.

TalkinPeace2 Wed 14-Nov-12 13:16:48

Its wonderful
They use a fingerprint reader to pay for food in the canteen so no cash changes hand (you load their account separately)
and the kids with FSM are not identifiable.
reduced theft
reduced bullying
diet management for those who need
whats not to approve

Right forefinger.
Consent form when you accept the place in the school.
I have absolutely no privacy worries about it at all as I doubt that terrorists really want to know what junk 1600 teenagers eat!

radicalsubstitution Wed 14-Nov-12 14:18:01

Exactly the same as TalkinPeace.

Could be the same school if it wasn't for the fact that ours has <1000!

TimeChild Wed 14-Nov-12 15:49:15

TalkinPeace and radical substitution, ditto for us

BoundandRebound Wed 14-Nov-12 17:15:49

It's not fingerprinting, it's biometric scanning,which converts to a mathematical algorithm using points on the fingertip. The original scan is then discarded.

It is not identifiable beyond something like 1 in a seven thousand fingerprints and would nor be usable outside the school it is scanned for.

No permission is required but parents can opt out if they wish.

It can be used to run cashless catering, library, locker systems

Much better than other options IMO

DameEnidsOrange Wed 14-Nov-12 17:17:45

Yes and yes

Used for food, not compulsory, DS has a PIN, as I had concerns about fingerprint data.....I was called a feckwit on another thread for being worried though hmm

poozlepants Wed 14-Nov-12 17:28:00

OMG it's Buck Rogers in the 25th century.

BoundandRebound Wed 14-Nov-12 17:31:25

Well you're not a feckwit but possibly you're a little on the paranoid / conspiracy theorist side?

It is in the end the parents decision and they can opt out if they wish but there is no requirement for schools to do an opt in to it

RedGreenRouge Wed 14-Nov-12 17:34:18

Dsd's school use it for printing. She objected and now cannot print anything out without asking a friend. hmm

BoundandRebound Wed 14-Nov-12 17:38:59

Pin codes are easily stolen or 'borrowed', cards are easily lost, stolen of broken and expensive and time consuming to replace.

I fully accept anybody's right to refuse to do anything they're uncomfortable with but don't understand what is the issue if I'm honest. The algorithm can't be used outside the school. There's no identification risk.

TalkinPeace2 Wed 14-Nov-12 17:41:11

why / what did she object to?
it seems an eminently sensible way to track printer documents IMHO
might mention it to DCs school

as even 'hacking' the database will tell you a LOT less than looking at their facebook pages !!

OwedToAutumn Wed 14-Nov-12 17:49:13

DD2 has this for the school canteen. There are cashless queues and cash queues, and I bet you can guess who gets served quicker! Also, money is so unhygienic, so a good idea, as far as I am concerned.

At DD1's school, it is a cashless system, but they scan a card, instead. There is no option there to pay in cash, at all.

RedGreenRouge Wed 14-Nov-12 17:58:32

Talkin The school refused to tell the pupils any real information about the system. She objected to being asked to give over personal information without knowing what would happen to it. She's in her last year and they wouldn't tell her whether they kept the record or not. No conspiracy theories, just sensible caution about blindly agreeing to something which you know nothing about.

TalkinPeace2 Wed 14-Nov-12 17:59:42

fairy nuff
silly of the school
we were give an excellent information sheet

Yep, had it at my high school. I don't remember permission being sought but I could be wrong.

Was a PITA, used for dinner and getting library books. If your thumb print wouldn't scan you couldn't put money on your account so you didn't get a dinner. Also caused horrendous queues in the dinner hall for similar reasons.

HecatePropylaea Wed 14-Nov-12 18:10:42

My children's schools have a cashless dinner money system and it's done with their thumb print.

I don't recall having to sign anything, but it was very well explained at the open evenings and in the handbook and all that.

I don't care anyway, what foul deeds can be done against my children with a thumb print? grin

ParsingFancy Wed 14-Nov-12 18:10:47

Converting to a algorithm doesn't necessarily offer security.

If the output is unique to each fingerprint, you could identify a right index print found elsewhere by simply converting it in the same way and comparing to the database. You might as well have given the school (and the police) the whole fingerprint.

Of course, the police would need a warrant, so it's not completely open season. Unless someone breaks into the database - or just loses a copy, as happened to national Child Benefit records.

RedGreenRouge, the school would be in breach of the Data Protection Act if they kept the data after she left, so it's not encouraging that they don't even know if they do this. And in fact it's a common breach.

Yup, the school I work at has it. We use it for library cards, dinner and printing.

Consent was obtained and their is an alternative - I know of one pupil whose fingerprint isn't used.

ParsingFancy Wed 14-Nov-12 18:38:34

By the way, anything in digital form is "only stored as numbers" - that's essentially what digital means!

Your digital photos are "only numbers".

I'm not saying any particular fingerprint system is necessarily storing full fingerprints.

Just that anyone who tells you, "It's OK because it's only storing numbers" is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. And I'd wonder why they wanted to do that.

complexnumber Wed 14-Nov-12 18:44:40

Even better:
Each child has a bar code slapped on their forehead.

It would help in so many ways!

BoundandRebound Wed 14-Nov-12 20:55:20

It is not a picture stored digitally it is a mathematical formula joining a small number of points on the map of the fingerprint but not enough points to define an actual fingerprint as used by police for identification that can hold up in any judicial process.

So no the police can't create an identifiable fingerprint from it

Nobody is trying to pull the wool over your eyes, nobody cares if you are the one or two families in a thousand who have an issue with this, it's a standard technology.

I just simply don't get the scandal and conspiracy that people try to attach to it. There is none, from a school POV its laughable to pretend there are other motives.

TalkinPeace2 Wed 14-Nov-12 21:04:05
ParsingFancy Wed 14-Nov-12 23:18:39

I didn't say the police could create an identifiable fingerprint from it.

I said the police could take a fingerprint they have found in RL, apply the algorithm and then use the school database to identify it. Thanks for sharing the figure of identifiable only to 1 in 7000, btw, Bound, I've been wondering about that.

Do I think the current UK government would collect up school databases in case they came in handy later? No. Do I think a rather different govt would be delighted come in and discover it had a reservoir of data about every schoolchild in the country. Yes, it's happened before.

If it's just data about current schoolchildren, the potential is very limited. But if the schools aren't religious about deleting data - or it's leaking in any significant quantity - it will be a reservoir of more of the population.

In this scenario, it's probably not important if the data isn't itself admissible in court, the intelligence is usually what they're after.

Re "from a school POV its laughable to pretend there are other motives."

It doesn't matter what the motives of the collector were; what matters is once data is there, it can be used for other purposes.

I don't honestly know if schools passing (eventually) the majority of the population through their biometric databases will lead to harm. If deletion is carried out rigorously maybe not. But deletion is an area data controllers tend to be weak on - as discovered by RedGreenRouge's DD above.

Btw several schools described above seem to be in breach of the Portsmouth guidelines linked by edam, and RGR's DD's school may well be in breach of the law.

BoundandRebound Thu 15-Nov-12 06:48:50

And thats the perspective i dont get, to what purpose could police get a fingerprint from real life run it through a biometric algorithm used in a particular school, assuming its a standard one and not randomised of course, to identify a particular student when it's not admissible, nor can be used in any judicial process?

Also the link is one governing bodies policy not national guidelines.

I'd be far more concerned, if I was the type of person to be concerned about being identified, about a potential DNA database than the system used in schools.

BoundandRebound Thu 15-Nov-12 06:50:32

Can you explain how RGR's school is breaking the law though?

ParsingFancy Thu 15-Nov-12 08:27:21

If RGR's DD's school are keeping the data after students leave, they are in breach of principle 5 of the DPA:
"Personal data processed for any purpose or purposes shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes ... In practice, it means that you will need to... securely delete information that is no longer needed for this purpose or these purposes"

We don't know they are failing to delete, but the fact they refused to tell doesn't bode well. By the way, I don't imagine malice here - just ignorance and incompetence, which are quite enough to cause a problem.

If RGR's DD wants to find out if her data has been deleted, when she's left she can make a subject access request to the school's fingerprint database Data Controller (just address a letter to "The Data Controller" - the school has by law to have designated someone) to ask what data they still hold about her.

ParsingFancy Thu 15-Nov-12 10:47:32

Not all police activity is geared towards the judicial process.

Even in the UK, it can be about disruption rather than prosecution, as when the police used Automatic Number Plate Recognition to disrupt people travelling to the completely legal 2008 climate camp at Kingsnorth (police debriefing paper, pp25-6).

In some countries, intelligence-led activity is more of the "taken away in the small hours and never seen again" type. Once a government has decided it's own citizens are the enemy, it's amazing the resources it will throw at spying on them.

And as the Dutch discovered in May 1940, you can acquire a govt like this in a week. Which turns round and says, "Ooh, nice accurate census data you've got there. We particularly like the column where you list everyone's religion."

Of course every data collection carries some risk, as the census example shows. I agree completely that DNA data is much more concerning. But I do wonder if the use of fingerprinting in schools is proportionate. How much of a risk is it, especially if poorly managed? How much of a benefit is it?

And why, if it's a real benefit, hasn't fingerprint id replaced swipe cards in the adult world?

Sorry, that's a lot of questions and no answers. But I'm glad the OP's friend is doing some research into this. We need to make decisions from a position of knowledge.

ParsingFancy Thu 15-Nov-12 10:49:42

it's its own citizens.

anniesw Thu 15-Nov-12 15:16:48

My DD's local secondary school have it for lunch and it works very well. You top up on line so they can't loose their dinner money - or spend it at a newsagent on their way to school

TunaPastaBake Thu 15-Nov-12 15:54:07

My DS has it at secondary school - we had a very informative info sheet and were asked for our consent - other options available if people did not want it.

Happy for the UK's intelligence services to access my sons biometric print to see whether he had pizza or BLT for lunch grin If they could offer some useful tips to get him to eat some veg and fruit I would be extremely grateful .

Melmagpie Fri 16-Nov-12 17:04:57

Thanks for your replies everyone!

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