New 2017 Progress 8 League Tables are out

[catslife]

No thread has been started yet, but the new secondary league tables are out

1. according to the Guardian - grammar schools have slipped down in performance based on Performance 8 scores only www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jan/19/grammar-schools-lose-top-spots-after-league-table-shakeup
   
2. the Telegraph shows both Performance 8 and also 5 A*-C/Ebacc percentages www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/01/19/gcse-school-league-tables-2016-compare-schools-performance/
   
3. The official DFE version www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/
   

I am interested in the data because this is my dds GCSE cohort, but others may be interested for other reasons e.g. they are applying for secondary school places.
I guess the starting point for discussion is about Performance 8 - how good a measure of a school's effectiveness is it really?

[icecreamvan]

I am interested in this as well. Just at the point where we're looking for a secondary school for DS.

I thought it was best to look at both Progress 8 and Performance 8 together.

Progress 8 will be higher if the cohort come with lower academic abililties. Am I right?

And Performance 8 still measures the GCSE results I think ...

I don't know - will be interested to know if anyone else does.

[catslife]

I think I may have used 2 different terms to mean the same thing. The League tables are known as Performance Tables as they (supposedly) measure a school's performance. Progress 8 scores measure the progress of individual pupils and are what are listed in the Tables.
I will see if MNHQ can edit the title of the thread.

[TalkinPeace]

THe new tables are HORRIBLE to use
you cannot click by region
so for those of us who live in areas near LEA borders its an utter bugger getting information

[megletthesecond]

I had a quick look at our local secondaries earlier. My initial observations were that it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Maybe I'll uncover something when I understand it a little more.

[bojorojo]

I think progress data is interesting and does tell you more about a school and it's teaching. It is likely to show up schools that really do the best for their pupils but it has its limits for really bright pupils who will always come out top in exams but have not necessarily made the greatest progress. The measure is relatively narrow and does not take account of other extension work or even other high level academic activity such as being well read or musical ability.

Thanks you for the links - cats

[Isthislazyorsensible]

Top grammars do have very high progress 8 and I wonder if because a proportion of pupils come from independent schools and would not have SATS data. In this case I think the school is allowed to allocate a made up score, usually average.

[bojorojo]

I live in a grammar county so no grammars are super selective and even have a smattering of middle achievers. I have looked at the results for my area. They seem to follow instinct on which is a good school - more or less!

All the 4 grammars are above average progress 8. One out of 7 secondary moderns is above average (a C of E selective secondary modern) two are average and the others below or well below. So it is the grammar school children or the church selected children who make the most progress.

I would suggest this is largely down to the majority of the secondary schools just not being very good and really having problems getting their lower attaining pupils and PP pupils to make good progress. There are few PP pupils in the grammar schools but where there are, they make excellent progress.

It is often thought it is more difficult to get good progress in grammars but this is not the case here. There are relatively few privately educated children going into the grammars. I would not have thought grammars could just make up a KS2 score though but I am not sure about this. I think, here, that the grammars are largely outstanding schools and only one secondary is. All the others have been in and out of RI or worse and it shows!

[Isthislazyorsensible]

I think the home environment is as important as the school itself in the progress the children are making. A family that values education is going to go to much trouble (going to church for 5 years, extra tuition to get into grammar, moving into a better catchment, going private) to avoid sending their children to a failing school so those who end up there have no chance in my opinion.

[user1484226561]

the biggest single influence on educational outcomes is natural ability, followed by parenting, followed by peer group.

[Isthislazyorsensible]

Progress 8 clearly shows that natural ability has no chance against a school that fails to educate.

[TalkinPeace]

user148
the biggest single influence on educational outcomes is natural ability, followed by parenting, followed by peer group.
Link please

as I think you'll find that one of the best predictors is parental wealth, and parental education levels, nothing at all to do with the kids themselves

[catslife]

user how do you define "natural ability"? These tables are based on the progress pupils made since Y6 (end of KS2) and I certainly don't think that any single test or assessment measures this accurately. Using a combination of tests e.g. SATs, CATS, NFER may be an indication of potential but there are lots of different types of ability that cannot really be tested for. Good teaching/school environment must also be a factor surely, otherwise there would be no real point in having league tables?

[catslife]

I don't live in a grammar area, so cannot really comment on their effectiveness, but I suspect that the reason for their high(er) Progress 8 scores is the fact that they offer and most pupils take the type of academic GCSE subjects that count most towards this measure. Whereas some pupils in comps may have a wider choice of GCSE options.
The Guardian article is referring to the fact that if all schools nationally are ranked in order of their Progress 8 scores, then the highest scoring schools are no longer grammar schools. But unless these other schools are local to you, you may not notice a difference iyswim.
In my area (mixture of comps, academies and faith schools) there are one or 2 surprises this year in that 2 academy schools in disadvantaged areas of the city have jumped up the tables due to their high Progress 8 scores. The very popular high achieving schools are still doing very well in terms of points scores / actual results but the fact that some of these schools have low Progress 8 values and low FSM is showing up that the results may be down to ability range / parental wealth of their intake.

[TotallyEclipsed]

I think schools with higher achieving intakes find it easier to get good progress 8 scores since it's easier to add value to a lower achieving minority in a higher achieving environment than vice versa. Also higher achieving youngsters are already making good progress and are likely to continue on the same trajectory. I do think the progress 8 measure is fairer than the old %5A*-C, but it's still not completely fair.