Pros and cons of doing AS maths in y11

[TeenAndTween]

Posting for a friend who has a very able daughter.

Her school are suggesting some of them take AS maths this year in y11 along side their GCSEs. My understanding is the aim is to stretch them a bit more, and either give them an 'extra' AS, or a headstart on Maths/Further Maths A levels.

I am wondering about the implications of this for 6th form if she decides to continue with maths. (Especially if she moves for 6th form which is a possibility)

Will maths be a split subject or is it / will it be an all through?

Any comments (e.g. from noble or anyone else) ?

[noblegiraffe]

This is an utterly terrible idea. AS level maths is designed to be taken alongside 3 other subjects, not 10. The amount of time that it would take to get a decent grade would be enormous. I don't know what it is like in her school but AS level in my school has 11 teaching hours a fortnight, GCSE only 8, so they are already at a disadvantage. AS has already been taught for 4 weeks, so they are also behind (and it is a tight fit to get everything taught before the exams in May as it is). Then she has to factor in mocks and revision for her GCSE maths. If it is only a few students, then I imagine that they'd be expected to get through it with a mix of lunch/after school sessions and a lot of self-study.

If she sits AS with one exam board in Y11 then moves to a different sixth form where they use a different exam board, she will have to start from scratch, she won't be able to use AS modules from one exam board towards an A-level with a different one. There aren't any issues with AS/A-level because the new linear maths A-level won't start teaching till 2017.

There is no way that she and the others will get as good a result in AS in Y11 as she would if she took it in Y12, and it will probably be at the cost of her other GCSEs as well. She could well end up having to resit modules in Y12, especially if she wants an A*.

Rather than AS maths, her school should put her in for the AQA level 2 certificate in Further Maths, or OCR's additional maths. These are GCSEs designed to be taken in Y11 and which are challenging in their own right (I would say that the Further Maths paper has more challenging questions than C1, and is far more fun).

[noblegiraffe]

Sorry, you asked for pros and cons. I can't think of any pros.

[TeenAndTween]

Thanks.

I think it's a terrible idea too but I didn't have enough facts at my fingertips to back up my view.

I think I'll print out your opinion and pass it on (though whether they'll take any notice is another matter).

[TeenAndTween]

I think the pros being touted are:

• she isn't being stretched in current maths lessons (quite probably too)
• if she does Further Maths A level she may well start with 5AS so good to get a head start
• looks good to have taken it early

[noblegiraffe]

Just thought of another con. If she is applying for top universities, some of them like the A-levels in their offer to be taken in the same sitting.

[futureme]

I'm with nobelgiraffe here. I used to teach at a 6th form college and the schools would think they were offering more by teaching an As in my subject early.

In reality the schools would be excited the student got a C/B at AS in year 11, when in reality as bright kids they could get an A in the right year. It really really didn't work.

I don't think it looks good to anyone to have taken it early beyond the school/parents.

[ragged]

Blimey.

When you say "this yr" does that mean finishing in June 2016?

Anyway, it's very common around here for higher achievers in maths to complete the further math AS in yr11. And has been for yrs. Even my DS who is fairly feckless should come away with a B (would be A* if he truly tried). I have no objections to it.

[TeenAndTween]

ragged Further Maths AS or GCSE ?

[StraightOuttaCroydon]

No direct experience here with Maths, but some experience regarding taking an AS (geography) in yr 11 and transferring to sixth form college to do A2 geog in yr 12 along with 3AS. It was a very difficult transition and very demoralising for the student. Social & maturity issues aside (a just 16 yr old working along side 18yr olds in a class that had bonded over the previous year) there are huge differences in the teaching of AS at yr 11 - in school vs lecturing in a 6th form college. The result for this young person was that, despite some intensive 1:1 tuition, they ended up with an E.

Admittedly this may well be a one off, but this pupil was incredibly able and mature at school and one would have anticipated an easy transition and success at the end of yr12.

Regarding maths, could you propose that the able pupil sit for an FSMQ, as a bridge between GCSE and A level?

Also, similar to the point made by NG, do universities ask for the number & grades of GCSEs at one sitting?

[ragged]

it's a good question, maybe I misunderstood.
The alternative (googling) would be something like "AQA Level 2 Certificate in Further Mathematics Resources" or the GCSE talked about here in TSR.

But what they said, I thought, last parent-eve, was that it was an As, and that it definitely carries UCAS points.

[StraightOuttaCroydon]

FSMQ attracts UCAS points

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Agree with the others. Would be far better for her to do the aqa level 2 or the ocr add maths. In a million years I wouldnt allow dd to sit AS maths in year 11, there is no advantage.

[futureme]

I wouldn't either.

[Ricardian]

looks good to have taken it early

There is no such thing as "a B taken early which looks like an A". It's a B.

[ChopsticksandChilliCrab]

My school trialled doing the AS in Y11 four years ago (C1, C2 and S1). Relatively few students were ready (ie going to get A grades) to sit it at the same time as their GCSEs, it was just too much. Plus the universities are not keen on A level/FM A level taking three years. So we had a rethink.

After looking at all the options we chose for our most able mathematicians to study for and sit the OCR Additional Maths FSMQ. It is an interesting paper, challenging, and prepares students well for Y12. The content can be covered in existing maths lessons, no extra time is needed.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

My DS did AS level maths this summer in year 11 alongside 8 GCSEs (he had taken 2 early).

It was fine (he certainly didn't kill himself with work He got an A and a very high UMS score.
He knew he was staying for sixth form (loves it and has only been at the school since year 9 so doesn't want a change).
It will allow him to take an extra A level in sixth form and have enough time for other stuff.

[hellsbells99]

My DDs did the Edexcel level 3 algebra qualification in year 11 which was excellent preparation for AS.

[noblegiraffe]

Shegot I expect your DS was properly prepared and it wasn't suddenly dropped on him partway through Y11?

There will always be the odd student where early entry works out ok, but on the whole it produces lower results. That's why the DfE so strongly discourage it that they amended the league table rules to stop schools doing it. (And that was just early GCSE!).

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Yes that's correct noble.

The early GCSE and then AS were well planned and executed by the school ( and would not have gone ahead if there were any suggestion that a good grade was in jeopardy).

I hadn't appreciated that this was being suggested now, half way through the first term of year 11.

Not paying sufficient attention.

[TeenAndTween]

Thank you all very much it has been really helpful. I've spoken to my friend and it has given her lots of things to consider and questions to ask both the current school and potential 6th forms.

[Bunbaker]

DD's school make the brighter students take IGCSE maths in January and statistics in June. Apparently IGCSE maths is harder than GCSE and is good preparation for A level.

[jorahmormont]

Bad idea. Those of us who were in first set maths at school were allowed to take the GCSE a year early, and then in the final year we had a choice between GCSE Psychology or AS Level Maths. Those of us who did GCSE Psychology mostly got A*s or As. The ones who did AS Level Maths all got Us, and it dented their confidence - none of them went on to do it at A Level if I remember correctly.

[ilove]

My son has just gone into Y12. He took Maths GCSE in Y10, got A*, took AS Maths in Y11 and got AAB (hadto teach himslf most of it as there "were no classees he could join") and has just started A levels in Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Maths and Further Maths. Makes my brain hurt!!

[AuntieStella]

The best mathematicians at our secondary (top one or two sets, depending on strength of year) do an extra GCSE in additional/further maths (sorry, forgot exact name). I think that's probably a better way to enrich years 10/11 than by attempting as AS level out of step.