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Secondary education

Tell me we haven't lost the plot to be turning down a grammar place for DS

82 replies

LegsBenedict · 16/04/2015 17:30

I posted about this back in October here. DS unexpectedly passed the 11+ but didn't want to go to the grammar school in the next city (and county - ours is a non-grammar county) and I was umming and ahhing about whether or not to put it on his secondary application form. I did in the end, but not as our first choice.

After I posted, we visited a superb comprehensive in another city in the opposite direction, on a whim, and both felt it was our absolute favourite, a brilliant fit for DS - academic, super results, amazing sports, etc. So we put it on the form as DS's first choice. It's massively oversubscribed and he didn't get a place (he's way down the waiting list). Cue mega disappointment, as we felt this was the perfect option between the grammar he didn't want to go to, and a nearby comprehensive I was finding a bit underwhelming.

In the end, the place he got offered was at the nearby small rural comp. It achieves average/slightly better than average results, is "good" according to Ofsted, and has a value added score in the high 900s (could be worse - but not a patch on the super comp he missed out on). Lots of kids in its catchment go private or to further-away grammar schools/comps, so I question how well placed that leaves it to support kids working at high levels. It's never over-subscribed. But still, DS has got comfortable with the idea of going to this comp. Most of his class mates are going, and they're nice kids.

Two days ago, unexpectedly, DS was offered a place at the grammar - he'd remained on the waiting list and a space has become available by a whisker. We've talked a lot, and DS still doesn't want to go, for a host of valid reasons (it's single-sex, heavily religious, is difficult to get to, has a claustrophobic and tired campus, he knows no one there, etc). It would be difficult for us logistically - I honestly don't know how I'd make the grammar work with transport/work/DS being able to participate fully in after-school clubs (he wouldn't be able to). Also, the grammar's value added score is no better than the comp's ... and yet I still feel like we'd be passing up a coveted opportunity by turning it down.

DS has a good work ethic and is a pretty sensible, balanced lad - people are telling me he'll do well anywhere. And the comp should, in theory, be able to support DS to achieve at the same level as the grammar. In theory. I have to let the grammar know by tomorrow if we want the place - and I feel whatever decision we go for will be wrong in some way. And if I insist on the grammar, I think DS's trust in me would plummet, where his thoughts and feelings have factored into this process so much until now.

Any words of wisdom? Anyone else gone for an OK comprehensive over a grammar, whether by choice or circumstance, and it's worked out well for their DC? I guess there's still the outside chance DS will be offered a place eventually at the other (super) comp.

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LaurieFairyCake · 16/04/2015 17:33

If your child is self motivated and you are supportive of his education and are prepared to engage with supporting him outside school then the comp is absolutely the best place for him.

You've made a great choice Smile and yes it's a shame he couldn't get into the one far away

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DustingOffTheDynastySuit · 16/04/2015 17:40

Honestly? Yes I think you are a bit mad, if you think your DS is 'grammar school material', and he's been offered the place, not to take it up in favour of anything other than an exemplary secondary school. But that's just me, and totally appreciate not everyone would feel the same.

if your DS had a place at his first choice secondary then it would make complete sense to turn down the grammar, but if you have the choice, to go to a less than ideal school just 'cos it's the nearest, and his friends (at 10yo) are going.. then personally I wouldn't.


What about trying hte grammar for a year? If he still hates it, it sounds like it wouldn't be a drama to transfer back to your local comp.

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CoffeeBeanie · 16/04/2015 17:49

I do think you are a bit mad, yes.

But then both teenage dc are at grammars, single sex, religious, knackered campus, very academic - and they are both thriving.
They didn't know anyone there and had got new friends within weeks.

Have you already turned the place down?

Why not visit the schools again? I'm sure they would accommodate you as the offer has just been made.

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LegsBenedict · 16/04/2015 17:56

Thanks for the posts. Laurie, that's an encouraging perspective. Dusting, the thing is that it's not just about the comp being nearby - it's a simple 10-minute drive or a half-hour bus from the next village, which helps, yes. Because we're out of catchment and county for the grammar, there's no organised transport from around here. I think two other kids might go from our village, but I don't know them. I think the mum of one of them is SAHM so can support her DS with travel, etc, much better than I could mine. I'd need to drive DS to a station, he'd have to get the train, and then do a biggish walk. I work (in the opposite direction), and I'm not with DS's dad, who doesn't pay any maintenance at the moment to help with costs, and wouldn't be able to help much with logistics. So it is a significant consideration. But I agree that had DS got his first choice of school, which is so good that it gets referred to as a "grammar that's not a grammar", I wouldn't be agonising over this. Sigh.

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Redcastle · 16/04/2015 17:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Namehanger · 16/04/2015 18:06

My son ended up with a tough commute to an independent school. As it happened it didn't work for him so we moved school.

If the school is great and they are happy then they make the commute work. If not happy then it is torture. Unfortunately it is only with hindsight that you know which!

I think listen to your gut. Grammar schools are just schools with some clever kids, they don't have the monopoly on clever kids and your son's future is not devastated because you didn't ignore/ pressurise your son and put you all through unnecessary stress.

My kids now both have a stupid long day BUT THEY WANT TO BE THERE AND ARE HAPPY. We are put out lots by this, but seeing happy kids makes it worthwhile.

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serendipity200 · 16/04/2015 18:06

Friends of ours did just this 7 years ago against everyone's advice including their primary school governors. Their Dd has been offered a place at Oxford, scholarships at two other Russell Groups. The school she is at qualifies for contexual offers, not that she will need them. So if your boy is happy with his choice then I would go with that. He can always reapply to sixth form at the grammar if he feels so inclined in the future.

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Zampa · 16/04/2015 18:09

I can only talk about my personal experience ...

I went to a single sex grammar a long way from my home from 11-14. I was miles away from my new friends (60 minute journey) which made a social life difficult. By the time I went to a mixed sex school at 14 (also a grammar) I couldn't speak to boys (weird aliens) and it took me years to deal with this.

Maybe I would have been a social cripple regardless but as such I will avoid single sex schools.

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ElizabethHoover · 16/04/2015 18:10

which school is it?

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ItMustBeBedtimeSurely · 16/04/2015 18:11

I think you're mad, sorry. I would choose the grammar like a shot.

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Variousrandomthings · 16/04/2015 18:18

Personally I'd appeal for the nice comp. See if you can get a late place.

My able DS turned down a grammar for a fantastic comp. It was the right choice for DS. The school suits and stretches him.

Would be hesitant about a poor comp though. I'd also be hesitant about him being at the very bottom of a grammar too. Would it effect his self confidence.

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VivaLeBeaver · 16/04/2015 18:25

For the transport issues Id turn the grammar down. Sounds a nightmare. How would he manage the reverse journey? Would you be home in time to pick him up from the station?

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senua · 16/04/2015 18:33

If it was an "unexpected" pass on the 11+, then perhaps the Grammar may not be a comfortable experience for him. And the single-sex thing is not ideal.
Do some horse trading with him. Say that you will agree to local school, not Grammar, if he agrees to fully participate, seize opportunities and get involved in stuff - in school or out - so he creates his own 'grammar experience'.

You can always re-visit the decision at sixth form.

Are there other DC to consider?

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VivaLeBeaver · 16/04/2015 18:36

My dd scraped a pass at the 11plus but then didn't get a place on distance. Here it's just a pass mark and then places are allocated to the nearest x number of kids who passed.

So she went to the crappy comp with its 40% gcse pass rate. She's thriving and is on target for Bs and As at gcse. Maybe if she'd gone to the grammar she would have been on target for straight As.....who knows?

But she's happy, she's in top sets for everything, the teachers love her. I reckon at the grammar she would have been disheartened by the really bright kids and her confidence would have suffered. Though I guess some kids may react different and rise to the challenge of trying to keep up, others may give up.

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Rivercam · 16/04/2015 18:45

If he's happy with the comp, then he'll do fine.

If you are unsure, why don't you all visit the grammar school (and comp) tomorrow, before you make your decision. You'll know instantly if it feels right or wrong. Include the. Logistics of travel. Ask at the school whether many people do the same route. If so, the travelling won't be so bad.

You sound like a good supportive parent. That's the biggest influence on a child, not the school.

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MargoReadbetter · 16/04/2015 18:48

The competition is so tough at grammar schools that the difference between just 'failing' and passing must be pretty small. Hardly something that would mean someone would struggle.

I take it you couldn't move closer to the grammar?

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ArcheryAnnie · 16/04/2015 19:03

Back in the jurassic era, I turned a grammar place down to go to the local secondary modern. The worst-case scenario is that he goes to your local comp, which you all seem reasonably content with. The best-case scenario is that he goes on the fantastic comp's waiting list and eventually gets a place.

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ErrolTheDragon · 16/04/2015 19:21

Hm. Well, my DD goes to a single-sex GS in the next city, and is absolutely thriving. But although it's quite a long journey it's relatively easy - a short drive to the bus-stop, there's a school bus and lots of service buses for coming home if there's something after school. And she was always convinced it was the right school for her so she's never complained or missed the bus. (also despite being a GS it has a high added value score, and is definitely not religious - that would have been a no-no for her).

So, despite knowing how good a GS can be, my gut feeling reading your posts is that if I was you I would not force him to go there.

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StationeryOrdering · 16/04/2015 19:38

Why isn't your DS keen on the grammar?

Whilst I don't agree with letting your child choose, I wouldn't want to send DS to a school he really didn't want to go to. Are his worries about it real? Is there any chance you can visit it tomorrow with him?

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Clobbered · 16/04/2015 19:45

The fact that he has been offered a late place from the waiting list suggests that he is perhaps one of those who 'only just' pass for the grammar. Those kids can end up having a very hard time if they are bottom of the heap academically. You need to be realistic about your DS's abilities. There's nothing wrong with being in the bottom few of a grammar school class (someone has to be), but could your DS cope with being in that position, especially if he wasn't keen to go there in the first place? Going to a grammar school doesn't guarantee a good outcome at the other end. The grammars get the best academic students who would do well anywhere, so it doesn't guarantee that they have the best teachers.
It sounds like a world of pain in so many ways going for the grammar.
Disclaimer - turned down a GS place at super-selective for my DS because I felt the atmosphere and ethos was all wrong for him. He graduated from Cambridge last year….

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Littlef00t · 16/04/2015 19:49

I went to a grammar school which was a 20 walk to the train station and 20 walk the other end to school.

It was exhausting and my social life really suffered as I couldn't meet up with them Easily.

For me on balance I think it was the better choice academically as I have a tendency to do 'enough' so was middling there but would probably have been middling at the local comp too.

I do think your child must be able to get to school without your involvement though as it will be a logistical nightmare.

No scope to move I presume?

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StationeryOrdering · 16/04/2015 19:53

I don't buy the whole "just passing therefore will struggle at grammar" line. Maybe 5 years ago, not now.

I've just accepted a place for DS at a SS, with a score that "just" got him in. Because I know that at least half the children that have high scores and have been offered places have been spoon fed, privately educated or excessively tutored to get their place. They are the more likely the ones that will struggle once they are there, IMO.

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ErrolTheDragon · 16/04/2015 19:55

The fact that he has been offered a late place from the waiting list suggests that he is perhaps one of those who 'only just' pass for the grammar.

Not necessarily, it depends how they do it. DD's school, there was a catchment so anyone within that just had to pass the 11+. That left residual places for people out of catchment, which were awarded by score (possibly with some distance factor, not sure). So the girls who got waiting list places would have got better passes than many of those within catchment, and there were many with good passes who didn't get a place.

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ErrolTheDragon · 16/04/2015 19:56

And what Stationary just said is also true.

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TheRealMaryMillington · 16/04/2015 20:03

it's single-sex, heavily religious, is difficult to get to, has a claustrophobic and tired campus, he knows no one there, etc). It would be difficult for us logistically - I honestly don't know how I'd make the grammar work with transport/work/DS being able to participate fully in after-school clubs (he wouldn't be able to)

you're not selling it to me.

I know you feel like you are passing up something good, but surely that is because the grammar system is operating in that borough. not yours.

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