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Secondary education

In-year appeal after moving house and waiting for months

19 replies

pepper74 · 30/03/2015 21:05

Hi, I know there are some lovely admissions/appeals experts on here who very kindly give their time helping others’ questions - so here goes.. (it's a long story!)

We've moved back to a town we used to live in. It's in a different county to where we were living last summer. Last summer made a late application for new school year based on our old address. My eldest did not get placed at the very popular town school (yr 8). As soon as we moved into catchment he was placed top at the waiting list. My youngest (yr 5) did however get a place in one of the town's primary schools.

As my eldest was attending a middle school (caters up to yr 8), he's been going there still while we waited for a space to come up. Although this involves costly and time-consuming ferrying around to school bus stop (which I now have to pay for).

However every time I checked with the head's secretary - no movement. Went to see the head this week (our new house is around 200yards from the school) - he confessed that yr 8 was still full - as although someone is leaving, recently someone else had won an appeal. The secretary also mentioned on the phone afterwards, that someone, with criteria higher up the waiting list, had also been admitted. Which was news to me. So at this stage I still need to clarify whether 2 children now need to leave year 8 in order for my ds to be admitted.

Anyway, head advised me to appeal - didn't know what the outcome would be, but sympathetic to our case at the same time.

So I've lodged an appeal - reasons below - having read through the threads on here, I think some will hold sway more than others.

  • Brother will start at the school in sept 16 - as a single parent family, important both brothers, for reasons of stability, attend the same local secondary school.
  • We live in very close proximity to the school.
  • Current school caters for children up to year 8 only. If he does not get into this school he will be faced with a change to another school, which will not be local, while we wait until a place becomes available, causing significant disruption to his education.
  • Friends - We used to live in the town when ds was younger and have a network of families we know in the town which would minimise any anxiety ds has about changing schools mid-year.
  • School strengths - as well as certain subjects the school is strong at that complement my ds' strengths, the school has a really, really good selection of after-school clubs - living so close ds would be able to attend these - at present his extra-curricular activities have to be limited due to transportation issues.

    It all boils down to this - my son is v nervous about changing schools. There are other good schools in the area, but obvs we'd much rather he went to the school he lives next to, where he knows the local community/other children and where he'll easily be able to attend the extra-curricular activities on offer. In his words, "There'd be so much more opportunity for me there."

    So does anyone think we have a case at all? Also can the head tell a panel he's sympathetic to our case? It's an academy and they will handle the appeal, not the LEA.

    Any thoughts, tips much appreciated. :) :)
OP posts:
pepper74 · 30/03/2015 22:19

Or if anyone has appealed for similar reasons - how did you get on? :)

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admission · 30/03/2015 22:32

As the school is an academy, the school will have to come to the appeal hearing and say why they cannot admit. The reality is that the admission regulations do now allow the school to admit over the published admission number (PAN) if it will not cause issues in other local schools. So whilst the head teacher may be saying they are sympathetic to you, they have ignored the possibility of admitting and are making you go to appeal. As the school will also be paying for the appeal I think you can take it they will be saying they do not want to admit, not that they are sympathetic to your situation.

As far as the current situation is concerned, if the school is 2 over the PAN then 3 have to leave before you could be admitted of the waiting list. However it is unusual for schools now to hold waiting lists, so you need to confirm that in deed there is a waiting list or not. If there is a formal waiting list then I would definitely appeal for a place as you need to establish whether in fact the rules have been carried out over who should have had places allocated.

If you find that actually there is no formal waiting list then again I would appeal as you have been given an expectation of being top of the waiting list when no such list existed.

I also have some concerns about exactly what has gone on here, you have gone to the school directly for a place, but actually there is no way your son should have been without a school place for the period you are talking about. The LA have a legal responsibility to find him a place and that is not at the previous middle school. That does not necessarily mean the upper school you want him in, but they must find him a place. What exactly has gone on here that son has been not in a formal school place for the last few months.

pepper74 · 30/03/2015 22:59

So to clarify;

My initial application was through the LA - was refused - but then I was told the school handles their own waiting list - and I was told ds was at the top of the waiting list as soon as we were in catchment (which was before sept term started - we rented in catchment, before I then bought our house next to the school).

I did not put 2nd, 3rd choices down on the application form at the time - as I told LA I'd rather keep son at current school while waiting for a place than send him to a different school. They did offer free transportation to another county school with places - but said it was my choice to continue to send my ds to his current school. And that's totally fair enough.

As ds is however ending his time at middle school I have a dilemma as if he can't get into this school he could either go to another county school, with free transportation, where he doesn't know anyone at all. Or he could go to the college which comes after the middle school, which is in our old catchment, and does have a place for him if we want it - but would involve all the ferrying around I'm currently doing - and is not sustainable long-term. He'd get to stay with his current friends BUT the college starts GCSE subjects a year early, in year 9 - so if he finally got into the school we live next to, he'd be coming having only studied a selective curriculum compared to what year 9 at the local school offers.

So he's either disrupted socially or educationally - if that makes sense.

I realise that none of this will necessarily help my case - but that's how it's all panned out.

So how can I establish whether the school's waiting list is 'formal'?

And if they've acted correctly - will any of my reasons of appeal carry any weight?

re. school sympathetic to my case. The head was straight with me - we can't go over our PAN, and we will have to argue this fact against you at appeal - however if you did win, we'd take it on the chin.

OP posts:
pepper74 · 30/03/2015 23:22

Actually he didn't say 'we can't go over PAN' he said, we're oversubscribed - we can theoretically can take whoever we want - but then where do we draw the line?

Also re. waiting list - all they've ever said is there's been no movement and that ds is at the top of the waiting list - so I was annoyed to find out that actually there has been movement. I do feel this has kept my expectations falsely high that only 1 person needs to move before he would get in. The last time I checked they took a day to get back to me - and instead of saying 'he's still at the top of the waiting list' they worded it as 'the numbers for year 8 are still the same' - which looking back is a sneaky way of getting round that someone else got in since the last time I checked.

They did explain this person had a higher admission criteria - but I think they could have been more honest about it.

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pepper74 · 30/03/2015 23:38

And to further clarify - the person that went ahead of ds was, they told me, a vulnerable child - so I'm not sure how that works - whether this child would have been on the waiting list ahead of ds (in which case that's a change they didnt tell me about) or whether the LA would have got them to take the child whether they had a space or not.

What I don't feel happy about is that it was only when I went to see the head that this information came to light. As far as I was concerned ds was always at the top of the waiting list.

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FireCanal · 31/03/2015 00:03

Waiting list places are like share prices - they can go down as well as up. The waiting list is held in order of admission criteria, not length of time you have been on it.

The child who got in may have been a looked-after child, had a statement naming the school, or had some other circumstances that put them in a higher criteria. I can't how this could be described as dishonest and I don't think the school were under any obligation to let you know about it.

They have told you that the child was admitted because he/she was in a higher admission criteria. I don't think you have any right to more detail about this?

itsveryyou · 31/03/2015 00:07

Hi pepper I'd recommend keeping a log of all phone calls and saving all emails you've received/receive from now on, from the LA and the schools you're contacting, as IME there is very little continuity or communication between them, and this has caused issues for us. Briefly, we're moving back to our permanent UK address in August and want DC's to start school in September.

We applied for a place last year during the normal round of admissions, as we were advised to by our LA and the academies in question, and after applying we were then told by one of the academies (the over-subscribed first preference) that actually, we couldn't apply for a place - so in our case, the pages of emails and phone call logs came in very handy, to prove what we had been advised in the past, and why we had a reasonable expectation to be able to apply from overseas using our UK address. We're now at the appeal stage, no idea how it will pan out, but we had to try! Hope it all works out for you and your DCs.

pepper74 · 31/03/2015 00:34

Hi FireCanal,

No argument with the fact that someone higher up on the list of criteria got in - just that was before I met with the head, I wasn't aware there'd been any movement at all.

After Easter I'll find out from the school how many are now on the roll for year 8 and see if they're now back at PAN or over it. If they're over it, I guess that's not great from a waiting list point of view - but could be helpful in showing that they've already coped with being over.

But really what I'd like to know is if anyone knows whether my reasons for appeal have any weight to them. Really want ds to be able to go to his local school, but need to be realistic about our chances of success.

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pepper74 · 31/03/2015 00:45

Thanks itsveryyou, hope your appeal goes well too :)

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itsveryyou · 31/03/2015 01:13

Hi again - I found it useful to read 'How to win your school appeal' by Ben Rooney to give me an idea of how to set out the appeal - you can get it on Amazon. prh47bridge here on Mumsnet also very generously offered to look through my appeal paperwork, and offer advice - I would recommend connecting with him, he's very experienced and I am sure will share some of his wisdom with you. Good luck with it all Smile

pepper74 · 31/03/2015 01:34

Thanks itsveryyou - the book is unfortunately unavailable through Amazon at the mo, but I'll see if I can get it elsewhere.

I will also try and get in touch with prh47bridge.

Thanks also to Admission for getting back to me - it's interesting that the head told me it was worth appealing - when it's actually going to cost them money to go through with the appeal and then they'll just argue against me. But then I guess he knows it's everyone's right to appeal and it's better than just carrying on twiddling my thumbs and waiting for a place.

If anyone managed to win an appeal (or even lost one!) based on reasons or circumstances similar to mine, I'd love to hear about it. :)

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tiggytape · 31/03/2015 09:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pepper74 · 31/03/2015 10:23

Thanks tiggytape.

Well the main reason is to disrupt ds as little as possible with school change - we've lived in the town before and know the local community well - ds knows several of the children attending the school and knows one particularly well - so would settle there much quicker than at another school. There are also many after-school opportunities - including clubs he'd be interested in that aren't available at other schools.

If he carries on at his current, old catchment, system - he'll have friends there, but there will be curriculum differences which will make a transition to the new school harder if/when a place comes up.

re. when the school have coped with being over PAN previously - what if they were over as a result of appeals? Would that make any difference to my argument?

OP posts:
tiggytape · 31/03/2015 10:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pepper74 · 31/03/2015 11:23

Thanks tiggytape, I see your point about disruption.

After Easter can I ask the school direct for the PANs in all year groups? Plus - do you think that whether they're are at overall capacity makes any difference? There are other year groups with places in them - I know this from another parent who has just got their child into the school from out of catchment - but this was for current year 7.

The school does offer/specialise in certain subjects that ds is interested in - I've put this down on the appeal form. None of the other schools in the area seem to provide the variety of clubs this school - it truly is an excellent programme - with plenty of clubs on offer that match ds' interests. If I take all worry about disruption to ds out of the equation, then this reason still stands - I really don't think he'll get as many extra-curricular opportunities if he goes to another school.

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pepper74 · 06/05/2015 12:28

Hi,

I have my appeal hearing tomorrow.

I received the school's case at the end of last week. They currently have spaces in every other year group - 15 spaces in total through years 7-11.
I would have thought this can be used to counteract any arguments about being over capacity - when it comes to general areas shared by all year groups - eg. overcrowded corridors and canteens.

They have also confirmed that although they are at PAN at the moment for my son's year group - they were actually 1 over from November to end of March - so I would like to ask them if they have any evidence whether this caused any problems.

I've also asked for all figures on NOR for the last 4 years and have discovered that many times the school has gone over PAN - sometimes by as much as 6 pupils. The school referred to a couple of year groups being over PAN due to appeals - but didn't give data for the rest.

I've persisted in asking them why and today they replied that it wasn't down to appeals - but for reasons agreed with the previous Headteacher. How do you think I should bring this up at the appeal? It seems to me a precedent has been set that was not due to them being forced to go over PAN by appeals or other circumstances.

Thanks again for any help anyone can give! :)

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 06/05/2015 17:30

If they have spaces in other year groups you can certainly argue that they are clearly not full to capacity at the moment.

Regarding going over PAN previously, when you are questioning the presenting officer ask them about it - "can you confirm that..." If the previous head was admitting over PAN that helps you.

admission · 06/05/2015 22:28

Panel members are told that previous "excursions" above the PAN should not be considered as setting a precedent.
However if you are asking if it caused any issues and the school cannot tell the panel that this caused absolute chaos then the panel are going to question in their own minds why they cannot take more pupils. In those circumstances it pays to have a strong personal case which can be taken seriously by the panel.

pepper74 · 06/05/2015 23:27

Thank you admission and prh47bridge.

I only intend to bring up these figures when questioning the presenting officer after they've made the school's case.

I've put together lots of evidence for my own part of the case too, so am not relying on the PAN figures on their own - but hopefully it all helps to pick holes in the school's case before
I present mine.

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