timetable has caused a setting issue WWYD?

[inthename]

Ds in Year 8 of prep school
very strong English & Science, set 1 all the way from year 6, very strong end of year 7 marks (90% plus on level 2 & 3 CE papers)
Slightly weaker maths but still expected to have no problem doing level 2.
School set for English, Maths and Science. Each subject has 2 sets only (so effectively a top and a bottom set)
ds was moved from top set to bottom in just maths last year, was told it was in his best interests and that it wouldn't affect the other subjects.
Goes back yesterday and is told that due to a 'timetabling issue' he and 2 others have been moved to bottom set Science - basically they have decided over the holidays that maths and science are taught at the same time with top set science running at the same time as bottom set maths and then another lesson would be bottom set science whilst top set do maths if you get what I mean?
There were several students moved up from bottom maths to top and for some reason they have automatically been put in top set science even when their test marks don't justify it simply to fit the new timetable!
The science teacher ia fobbing me off with 'your ds will do higher level work, it will be virtually 1:1' but how can that possibly be so when she has other students who need to be got through CE and are nowhere near passing.
What can I put forward as a solution?
The ethos, behaviour and everything about the bottom set is different, it feels like ds is being punished for struggling a little bit in Maths last year. No one at the school said at any point that maths and science suddenly 'stream' together for year 8.

[happygardening]

I would have thought being expected to have "no problems" with level 2 CE math would definitely not make you top set math frankly. Do you have a separate scholarship class or are they in same top set? If any potential scholars are also in top set math them I'm not in the least bit surprised he's in "bottom" set. Your comment that he's sitting in a class with other children who are no where near passing science CE and the teachers time will be taken up with children who are struggling to pass is exactly what other parents could say if your DS was moved into top set math just so that he can be in top set science. It is also highly likely that all in "bottom set" math who are sitting CE will have to get at least 50% in math if not more so it's unlikely to be a class where math isn't taken seriously. I know you've posted before about your DS's math which would appear not to be his strong subject, from what you've said he could really struggle in top set math and become at the very least very demoralised. Finally if he doesn't need level 3 in math CE why should he have a place top set math when there might be others who need at the very least a high mark in level 3 or even pass a scholarship exam.
CE science is pretty easy, are you sure there are some "who are no where near passing"? Anyway there is no pass mark for CE it depends on the individual senior school and most want at least 50% for science. What CE mark does your DS have to get? So again as with the math a lot of effort will be put in to make sure all pass.
I genuinely can't see how you can resolve this if it's 1. a genuine time tabling issue and 2. You DS is not suitable for or needs level 3 CE math.
No prep school wants their pupils to "fail" CE for their first choice school, the school must feel that your DS will achieve the right CE % in the sets he's been put into. If you are particularly worried about the science teaching buy some of those Galore Park CE revision guides you could then go over it with him.

[summerends]

inthename it is likely in year 8 of CE that the 'setting' for science is decided by the CE level and pass mark required for the boys' selected senior schools. Some of the boys who have done less well in science than your DS may need to be working towards a 60-70% pass mark or scholarship paper. Rightly or wrongly at this stage maths ability is linked with science ability which is probably why the school think they are capable of it.
If your DS is requiring a 70% CE type school then he is wrongly set. If his senior school(s) are 55-60% he will be fine.
I would focus his motivation and extra work outside school on his maths as in year 9 and beyond that will likely impact his setting for sciences.

[inthename]

Many thanks.
There is no seperate scholarship class.
They have children in the top set who have just moved from the bottom set based on level 1 paper scores.
ds is at the very top of the 'bottom' group in Maths and off the scale in top set Science, literally scoring 98% on every single level 3 test. The bottom group in science has a completely different feel to it, literally being taught how to pass CE.
The bottom maths set has been a concern to many parents for a while as the vast majority in that group have had to opt for completely non selective schools as they have been unable to reach the required standard for level 1 papers. We have asked for a better division of groups as the behaviour has become an issue. These same children are in the bottom set for Science.
The Science teacher has admitted she would have to teach 1:1 in bottom set Science due to the huge difference, but I can't see how that can work for a whole academic year and ds is extremely unhappy.
He requires 60/65% CE.
I know he needs to pull his maths up. We were not told at any point in year 7 that they link maths and science in year 8.
I can fully understand that they won't put him back in Set 1 Maths, but they have sprung this on him with no warning and no opportunity last year to improve his maths set.
I've got more meetings this afternoon. We'll have to see.

[LIZS]

Are the others destined for similar schools perhaps, iirc you are looking for 55% which isn't particularly high? Honestly I think you are fretting over nothing . ds was in bottom set for Maths and CAS set for humanities, got a scholarship at 13+ and all A*/As at GCSE .

[summerends]

Inthename if he is at the very top of the second maths set then I think you should push to get him moved to the first set and therefore allow him to access the top set in science.
It is possible that you are at a school where parents who push hardest to get their own way are successful and all the spare spaces in those top sets have been filled accordingly.

[inthename]

thanks.
Its not so much the set LIZ, the style of learning is totally different and it makes ds really miserable to have to sit through lessons where the others want to mess about and aren't interested because its got no relevance to the schools they are going to.
I think so Summer. Its in the hands of the head now, just there is no justification educationally for what they have done, just a 'we've done it so we're not changing it' attitude.

[noblegiraffe]

I know nothing about the ins and outs of CE exams, but you're saying that your DS is at the top of the top set for science, and top of the bottom set for maths, but instead of putting him top set for both, which would make sense given the restrictions, they are putting him in bottom set for both? So instead of a small promotion in maths, a massive demotion in science?
And you're paying for this??

[LIZS]

There will be a scholarship set - L3 papers, CAS and scholarship exams set by top flight schools are very different to basic CE. - assuming they have a cohort of pupils who move on to such schools . Of course it may not be advertised as such or the group may be timetabled so as to have specific lessons for this in addition to the norm. Most of the L1/2 work will have been covered by now , this year is for revision and taking exams. Is the setting perhaps in part defined by destination school as well as ability ? If they group together all those going to school x then they can orientate the revision and practice towards that style of entrance exam or teaching.

[happygardening]

The problem is that there is a jump from having no problem doing level 2 CE papers to CE level 3 and a big jump ISEB scholarship papers so maybe the school have a bit of a dilemma. Is the OP's DS better off struggling in top set maths and doing well in top set science or at the top of both bottom sets?
Frankly I agree with LIZS I think your slightly fretting unnecessarily, the only point of the last year of a prep is to get children ready for CE and to get the grade required by their first choice school, no school wants a child to fail it just looks bad on them, so assuming your first choice school will accept level 2 math CE and if he's top of his class 60/65% must be well within his capabilities and knowing how easy the science papers are Im pretty sure your DS will easily get the required grades.
I find it hard to believe the vast majority cannot even reach the required for level 1 math CE. My DS1 who has dyscalculia and whose math is beyond awful managed 60% on a level 2 CE paper with frankly mediocre teaching. Do you really know that the bottom set is this dire at math who's told you? Other parents, your DS? In my experience there's always a lot of gossip amongst the parents of children in the final year of a prep school, partly because they've reached the end of the road and have been kicking around the school for so long, they're ready to move on too bigger pastures, and there's also always lots of scare mongering and "oh I'm so worried Freddie won't pass CE he only got 20% in the last math/science/French exam", Mr X is a rubbish teacher, they've only covered half the syllabus, etc, many parents shell out for tutors much to the delight of the tutoring industry but the reality is that a good prep school should know what they're doing this is why they "literally teaching to pass CE" this is their raison d'être and ultimately what parents are paying for, many prep school children get very fed up in their last year for this reason and it's very very rare for a child not to achieve the necessary mark and not make it into their first choice.

[summerends]

Lizs that is what I thought but if they only have two sets with the lower one only doing CE Level 2 maths I don't think this school has that flexibility. TBH it sounds like a middle of the road prep mainly serving local schools.
Am I right inthename?

[happygardening]

I think the OP's prep doesn't have a separate set for scholarship candidate I think they're in the "top set" which is why I'm assuming the OPs DS is in the other set because his math isn't really good enough for the top set if he's only doing level 2 CE without any problem.
If OP math is not his thing don't you think he might really struggle in "top set" math if some are preparing for scholarship exams?
Surely at this stage all you want is for him to get the required mark at CE, he's obviously doing well in science and will continue to do well whatever set he's in especially if you buy him some of those galore park revision guide books and maybe the teacher will ensure that he's getting then right level of teaching, he's only been back a few days so give her a chance. What you don't want at this stage in the game is for him to loose his confidence in math by being put in a set where he's struggling.

[LIZS]

How big is the year group, is the school very small ? dc's had at least 3/4 sets for most subjects in year 8.

[inthename]

the year group is only 30.
I'm not fretting over this, just that those in the bottom set science have a very different attitude to learning which saps all of the joy out of the subject.

[LIZS]

wow I was expecting you to say 20 or less if only 2 sets . How can he teach 1:1 in a group of 15 ? ds' year 8 was about 35, his "bottom" Maths set had about 8. Agree with those who say don't rely on anecdotal evidence for raising your issue though.

[happygardening]

At DS's prep there were about 30 in each year and three sets in fact three forms in the lady year. I too thought you were going to say less than 20. I'm genuinely am not sure there is a lot of "joy" in the last year of prep it really is all about passing CE.
What did the school say when you met with them this afternoon?

[almapudden]

I don't think the Science CE paper offers levels. Maths and Latin both have level 1, 2 and 3; French and English have levels 1 and 2 but almost no one sits level 1.

I taught in a quite prestigious prep where there were only three sets for a year group of 50.

[inthename]

its still with the head.
the person who organises the timetable has the authority to resolve this but has stated that he doesn't wish to do so. There are 3 children affected by this, none of us were told before hand. Sounds like year 8 is pretty pointless in many ways. Ds is feeling that all work he did in year 7 was also a waste of time if this is the outcome.
ds isn't going to the same school as the others in the bottom sets (summer is right that it tends to send to local schools)
very disappointed that ds is just supposed to put up with it.

[summerends]

Makes me realise how lucky DS was as he had a brilliant year 8 academically and socially including the programme that was set up for those who finished exams early joined by the entrance people later. He was n't in CE sets but his friends did n't seem bored by their lessons. Seems a bit sad and a waste of a year in their lives if it is just revision.
Inthename could this be turned into a motivation for your DS to put the work into getting top CE grades so as to show the school how wrong they are? It seems unfair but he can overcome this setback and in a year's time the problems of sets etc will have faded to insignificance.

[inthename]

the head has said its purely a timetabling issue because they want all of year 8 taught by the head of science. Apparently there is virtually no difference between the bottom of set 1 and the top of set 2 (in which case I've just suggested that there could be no problem with putting ds back into Set 1 science )
Feel like I'm being fobbed off, head wants to talk with me.

[inthename]

sorry - no problem putting him back into Set 1 Maths!
Hes currently scoring level 7b on NC levels - which is probably irrelevant!

[summerends]

That's great news but was your DS's head talking to you at past 11pm? That is pretty dedicated .

[inthename]

nope - picked up an email!

[inthename]

As an update. I met with the head. He wanted to observe the lessons and then meet again within a 2 week time frame. I had a meeting booked for Tuesday. I was contacted on Friday, he says that hes looked at the data and can't make a clear decision so wants to observe more lessons and speak to teachers again, putting the meeting back to the second week of October!
Our first meeting on this was all about getting this resolved quickly - now I am definitely being fobbed off!
Not really sure what to do, DS is very bored (science lessons this week was making flash cards for remembering elements!)