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Secondary education

IB if want to study engineering ?

22 replies

Dancingdreamer · 15/10/2013 22:49

My son has to decide this year if he wants to do IB or A levels. His problem is that not sure what wants to study at university but current options are chemistry, engineering or economics. Either way would really want to give him best chance to get to Russell Group University and have heard that IB not good if want to study engineering. However, don't want to close down his options too early either.

He is a good all rounder albeit slightly weaker at English than maths and science. (Currently A/A maths and science versus A/B English) Quite keen to continue with German (A) and would like to do part of university studies in Germany if he could. He would love the chance to study economics next year as really interested in subject but only offered in 6th form at his school.

Would value any advice please.

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LittleSiouxieSue · 15/10/2013 23:44

To do the MEng courses you need Maths, Further Maths and Physics to do Civil or Mechanical Engineering. Adding chemistry is good for keeping options open. Some Economics courses do not necessarily require Economics A level but want maths and further maths, but you would need to check this out at the Universities you prefer. Not sure if the maths/science combination works at IB because IB avoids narrowing down of options whereas A levels play to your strengths and you can avoid subjects you don't want. Regarding German, it is not essential to have an A level to do the year abroad in Germany. You would have to check this out with the individual university but some will offer German classes to get the students up to speed. There is no easy answer but I would probably advise the A level route. You will just have to ask lots of questions of the individual universities and try to work out what type of Engineering as this is quite crucial.

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fossil971 · 15/10/2013 23:55

Agree to check with universities. It's nice to have the broader range but he might need to catch up in his first year as some students will start from a more specialist A level. But then courses will also have students from ROI, EU , USA with different portfolios of qualifications.
Suggest looking at Imperial, Cambridge, Leeds, Birmingham etc as to course requirements. I doubt it will be a show stopper.

I did Maths, further Maths, Physics and Chemistry, the classic Engineering A levels, (OK 20+ years ago) but often wish I'd had a bit more geography, or language or something.

(Do engineering! It's the best job in the world! Grin)

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Dancingdreamer · 16/10/2013 09:06

Thanks for responses. Very helpful. Was erring towards IB before, now not so sure.

Have now checked couple of websites specifically for engineering and all say IB accepted for entry. Not sure however if would be at be at disadvantage if hasn't had depth of A levels.

Fossil - DH , FIL and BIL all engineers so you can see why DS has this on list! Just not sure if he will get grades needed for Russell Group engineering which was why thought IB might keep options open.

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complexnumber · 16/10/2013 10:03

I have taught Higher Level IB maths for the last 8 years and my students have gone on to study engineering at some of the best universities in the world.

I have heard so many ex-pupils tell me how doing the IB Dip was really hard work, but it gave them a distinct advantage over other students when it came to study skills and time management

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complexnumber · 16/10/2013 10:05

I should add that I have not taught A' level maths, but have heard from reliable sources that the HL maths course lies somewhere between A' level maths and further maths.

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LittleSiouxieSue · 16/10/2013 18:25

Just to add that the best Universities like Further Maths for MEng courses. You may find they will suggest you apply for a BEng course (which does not get full accreditation)with just maths and you need to avoid this. You will need to work out if he can get the IB score suggested by the University as a minimum by doing 6 subjects. Engineering is a very structured subject at University and it is full on with labs etc. A level students are perfectly capable of studying effectively if they have managed a successful school career. Although the Universities say three A levels, the Engineering students I know have four at A2 including Further Maths. I am also from a family of engineers and a lot of DDs friends at University (RG) are doing MEng courses but none have the IB. Do the IB if German is the deal breaker.

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gintastic · 16/10/2013 18:51

I did Maths, Further Maths, physics and German at Alevel and did a civil engineering degree. The language was brilliant as the extra, it allowed me to do a year of my degree at Vienna university, which was the most amazing experience.

Engineering is a fab career :-)

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Dancingdreamer · 16/10/2013 23:16

Gintastic - What a fab opportunity. Did you know/come across anyone in UK university who had studied IB?

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NomDeClavier · 16/10/2013 23:29

DH's brother has done engineering with IB. DH thinks he did SL English A, French A, Further maths HL Maths, Physics, Chemistry

The Maths HL is hard - more so than a maths A-level - and SL further maths....well he and my DM who is a maths teacher were having an in depth conversation where it sounded like he was teaching her stuff a few years back!!! But very few places offer SL further maths so there must be wriggle room for a higher offer with IB HL maths.

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Dancingdreamer · 16/10/2013 23:46

All this talk about further maths scaring me! There was a reason why I didn't study engineering!

Must find out from school what maths options are with IB. School keen to push brighter kids towards IB for some reason. But starting to sound like Alevels could be better option. DS could also drop English then which is his weaker subject.

Thank you for all the advice!

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gintastic · 17/10/2013 00:47

No, all my cohort had A levels. But this was back in 1997-2001, don't think I'd even heard of the IB back then.

Do encourage the year abroad - was fab, loads of opportunity for travel hot European men Blush

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fossil971 · 17/10/2013 07:14

Another thought:

To be honest, engineering as a career (as you know) is very diverse and multidiscliplinary. You travel, you write papers and reports, you create Powerpoints, it's way more than working out the strength or size of something. To get your professional exams you have to write essays.

Further maths will help get through some improbably difficult maths in the first year of university, which will never be used again. A few hours of working through a textbook would probably make up the ground. OTOH to have a slightly broader base of languages, humanities etc in the IB (I presume) will look good on his CV as a graduate and actually be some use in working life. To be good at a language will really stand out. Too many engineers have terrible English.

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Dancingdreamer · 17/10/2013 08:26

Fossil - Spoke to DH last night about the further maths and he agreed maths during engineering degree was impossibly difficult even with further maths.

DH thinks should stick with Alevels as IB would force DS to study English at expense of maths. DH is convinced that the reason UK have so many world-leading scientists is because of early specialism with ALevels.

So it looks like maths, further maths, chemistry and physics for DS. Still seems shame that DS has to then drop German and can't try economics though.

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crazymum53 · 17/10/2013 13:50

I really wouldn't discount doing the IB on the basis of the few comments on this thread OP.
If he studied the IB he would be able to do all the options you have listed including German, Economics and Chemistry as well as Physics and Maths. Provided that the Higher level Maths and Physics are studied, that should be fine for university. There is further discussion of the IB options needed to study engineering on the Studentroom website so would recommend looking at this for more information. I do know several graduate engineers who have moved to Europe for work so the German language would be useful. › ... › International Baccalaureate?
Basically for the IB you can choose to study subjects at 2 levels: Higher and Standard. There are 2 main exam papers for each subject and also a third which involves 2 chosen options. The options would be equivalent to further maths A level standard. If you are concerned about English he could study that subject at Standard level instead.
I have taught the Chemistry IB at both Higher and Standard level and confirm that aspects of the Higher level course are harder than A level. Students studying this have progressed to study subjects such as Medicine and engineering. Some however have been able to move into non Science degrees due to the broader nature of the IB and one student has recently gone to University in Australia since the IB is also accepted outside the UK.

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fossil971 · 17/10/2013 21:45

Good luck either way - I suspect whichever he chooses will have its advantages so don't feel it will be a showstopper to make the "wrong" choice.

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JGBMum · 18/10/2013 07:50

Could your DS take 5 AS exams? Then he could keep the German. At DS school, further maths was only allowed as a 5th choice because of concern that students would find maths very difficult, and if they then wanted to drop it after AS, then you were potentially going down to only 2 subjects at A2, (if you lost both maths and fm)
To be honest, it was very hard work, and at A2 they had to keep fm as a 4th subject, but both boys have found it's been very helpful in terms of coping with the workload now that they're studying engineering at university.

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Dancingdreamer · 18/10/2013 13:18

JGB - I don't think DS had considered doing 5 AS exams. Isn't that just for the very brightest kids?

Crazymum - that was my original thinking with IB - to keep his options open. However the English standard level for IB that he is being offered is literature based and DH has convinced him that spending another year studying English literature is a waste of time! His view - not mine!

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Fugacity · 19/10/2013 08:40

Engineers are very well rounded people, so a broad education is a good thing. Engineers have to be able to write well, so there is a lot to be gained from an extra year of English. I think doing HL Maths and Physics (and Chemistry, if you are allowed two experimental sciences at HL), with FM, German and English at SL would be highly attractive to any Engineering School.

I studied Chemical Engineering. I did Maths, Chemistry, Physics, English, French and Geography in the sixth form. In retrospect, Geography probably was not as beneficial to me as the other subjects, but I enjoyed it.

If you can meet the university entrance requirements and have a good personal statement and reference, they will offer you a place (they might use an interview to determine the precise offer).

I don't know of anywhere that asks for Further Maths, as not all schools offer this. What they might do is give students who have missed out on the the opportunity to bridge some of the gaps by doing some work on it before the start of Uni or some extra classes at the beginning of term. Basically, if you haven't done FM, the university will do the fill-in work.

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Dancingdreamer · 19/10/2013 22:57

Fugacity - didn't know this about further maths not being offered in all schools. And certainly wasn't aware of universities playing catch up. Does this apply to all universities?

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Fugacity · 20/10/2013 07:34

Have a look at the various course requirements on UCAS. You will be hard pushed to find a lot of mention of FM, let alone it being compulsory.

Yes, universities start their etching from where A-levels left off.

What type of engineering does your DS want to do?

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Fugacity · 20/10/2013 08:25

Further Maths is offered by 65% of state schools

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complexnumber · 21/10/2013 14:30

Further Maths at A'level is a completely different kettle of fish to Further Maths within the IB*.

IB HL Maths, with a decent grade, will get you into any university that I have come across. (including Oxbridge, obviously).

*I've copied this from a Wikipedia site;
Further Mathematics, as studied within the International Baccalaureate Diploma is a Standard Level course that can only be taken in conjunction with Higher Level Higher Level (HL) Mathematics. Further Mathematics studied within the IB is considered considerably harder than that of HL Mathematics, and HL Mathematics is considered harder than typical A-Level Further mathematics. It assumes knowledge of the core syllabus of the HL course, and consists of studying all four of the options studied at Higher Level, plus an extra geometry unit.

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