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Secondary education

So what is education for?

50 replies

creamteas · 18/06/2012 20:20

Following Elibean suggestion, the question is what is education for?

To me education is about working with children and young people to ensure they can emerge into adulthood with the knowledge necessary for a fulfilling adult life.

I do not believe that the ?banking model?, where skills and instructions are deposited into an empty vessel is a good way to approach learning especially if it is a narrow vision of exams, training and skills.

Education is for the benefit of the individual, of course, but also wider society and involves experiencing and understanding core education values such as critical thinking, experimentation, debate, collaboration and competition in different disciplinary areas.

All children have a right to high quality education which should help them uncover their strengths and weaknesses and help them focus on their talents in whatever sphere it should be.

So what do you think?

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Somersaults · 18/06/2012 20:31

I remember reading a quote somewhere that said 'Education turns an empty mind into an open one'. Not entire sure it's true but would love it to be.

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talkingnonsense · 18/06/2012 20:33

Childcare? ((runs))

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creamteas · 18/06/2012 21:02

somersaults it would be great if it always did that.

talking if a side effect, rather than a purpose then I'm with you :)

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sashh · 19/06/2012 05:11

For me it is about choices, the more education you have, the more choices in life you have. I love the moment when someones eyes light up, or they go Ah, yes I get it now, when it is something they should have learned at school but they did not understand. (can you tell I teach teenagers / adults)

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happygardening · 19/06/2012 08:12

Difficult to define what education is for.
Education should enable you to function effectively in society therefore you need to be able to communicate with others, read, write etc. but also other life skills cooking wire up a plug sew on a button etc. Then in our fast evolving multi cultural world we need to have an understanding of other people their religions cultures etc. Then of course there is acquiring and assimilation of facts and knowledge much of it may on the surface appear non essential but will influence are decisions and views or just enhance our enjoyment of our world around us.
I think it easy to think of education as just something you do up until you leave school/uni but we never stop being "educated;" in our working life, our hobbies interests we are learning all the time.
None of these things are the sole responsibility of teachers the individual has a responsibility and one would hope a desire to educate himself and we all play a part in the education of others whether it be formally or informally.
Im sure i have left other things out so will watch with interest to what others say.

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creamteas · 19/06/2012 19:33

Thanks for all the responses so far, it is interesting that so often the purpose of education is lost in debates over schools/exams/universities. Yet I also struggle to articulate ideas about education without using this discourse,

I also think that whilst that during childhood years it is of particular importance education is for life, and we should never stop learning.

I fail one of the greatest failures in society today is that the educational system fails so many young people, and that we do not invest enough to ensure every child achieves their potential (what ever that may be).

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t0lk13n · 19/06/2012 19:38

The Department of Education clearly thinks it should be childcare...now if I could be paid for every child I taught throughout the day per hour....I may be quids in!

It is about being able to work together, being sociable, knowing right from wrong, having a breadth and depth of knowledge that may be needed to gain employment. This is off the top of my head.

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Elibean · 19/06/2012 19:42

...and about knowing more about oneself, and about the world we live in (including other people). At primary level, I think a lot of it is about learning to love learning - finding out how exciting learning can be, what keys it can provide to otherwise locked doors.

creamteas, it was someone else (Rabbit?? can't remember) who asked the question originally, but thank you for having the energy to actually start the thread - I still think it will be an interesting one! Smile

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rabbitstew · 19/06/2012 21:42

Yes it was me - I often ask the question! From my point of view, the family has the greatest role to play in a child's education. Parents should pass on to their children all that they know and love, help develop and nurture a child's values, beliefs and manners, model skills of independence for their children and gradually encourage their children to take on those skills for themselves, share and teach their own particular skills and talents which are not necessarily shared by others, create the sense of security children need in order to feel equipped to go out and explore the world by themselves as they grow up. Siblings educate their brothers and/or sisters, too, in how to share, how to compete, how to deal with jealousy, how to care for those who are important to you - as do extended relatives. The community around us also ought to educate us, by allowing us to be a part of it, providing shared spaces and experiences, letting us see and experience other types of people and different lives, by providing some shared sense of purpose.

If you have all of that, the role of a school is so much easier! If you don't have all those good examples, your parents, relatives and community still educate you, they just educate you not to rely on others, not to help others, not to trust others, not to consider others to be hugely relevant to you, not to be concerned with much beyond your own needs and desires and not to care so much about the world around you, and then schools end up with an awful lot to cope with before they've even started to try to educate you in the traditional sense.

The State will always have a hard time trying to balance its desire to create good citizens against the will of people not to be dictated to and have too many standards forced upon them which might actually be alien to their own beliefs and standards, hence the importance of stable families and some effort of individuals to connect within communities, so that people can see and feel the value of having some kind of shared purpose for our children. Basically, we need a sense of shared enterprise before we can get anywhere near deciding what our education system should look like. An attitude of every man for himself does not a great education system make.

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Colleger · 19/06/2012 22:38

In response to the first post, I think that what you think education should be creamteas can be achieved at home rather than at school, assuming the parents are up to the job.

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Colleger · 19/06/2012 22:39

Oo, just agreed with my new bud rabbit without even reading her post! (wub) Wink

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Elibean · 19/06/2012 22:40

Aha, thought it was you - and well put!

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Elibean · 19/06/2012 22:40

(that was ref Rabbit!)

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Colleger · 19/06/2012 23:03

Education should equip us to:

Look someone in the eye and be able to converse
Not have a limp handshake Wink
To not be risk averse and think failure is a positive learning experience
To talk properly - I don't mean regional accents, I mean no dropping letters
To be realistic but also to aspire

Of course all the nice, moral stuff too but I'm struggling to find many adults below a certain age that have two out of the five.

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creamteas · 19/06/2012 23:20

Whilst agree with the sentiments rabbit and that parents have an important role, I think that seeing the family as the most important element is problematic. All families have different cultures, and unless we dictate an agreed set of family values to install, formal education is extremely important in broadening the framework and giving different experiences.

There is a considerable amount of evidence that because our current education system is built on certain values, it fails children from different backgrounds (eg social class & ethnicity). 'Learning to Labour' is a classic text which sets this out, and I'm not sure things have got any better.

Whilst I am passionate about state education, I also believe that the state's role in education can be problematic in the sense that it will almost always support the values of the elite.

The current divisive class based structure of schooling could also be seen as part of a propaganda model, so parents are so busy competing against each other for resources (school places) or individual attainment that the bigger transformative value of education for society as a whole is lost/hidden.

So, to paraphrase Freire, education is not only facilitating the integration of the younger generation into the logic of the present system and bring about conformity, but ensuring that their parents have less opportunity to challenge this as well, Thus the potential for education to be a practice of freedom is doubly lost.

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rabbitstew · 20/06/2012 10:40

I don't think it's problematic to view families as having the most important role - they create the foundations from which you can build something good, and you can't build anything good without strong foundations, you can only create a facade. And basic values have little to do with class or culture. I would reject any idea of a class which did not care for its offspring or wish to pass on its skills and an interest in the world around them. And passing on a sense of insecurity and rigid closed-mindedness and rejection of alternative views is a failure of a culture or class, too - protectionism at its worst. Cultures which behave like this reject the idea of education by a state which is not part of their culture, anyway. Basically, if you can't even accept that people of different cultures need to become more open minded and accepting of other beliefs, then you really can't fit a diverse group of people together under one roof. If a society cannot agree even a very basic set of values shared by everyone, it cannot create a universal education system. That is precisely why the whole concept of a state education is contentious.

And as long as the reaction of other groups to a perceived "elite" is to reject all the ideas of the elite in response to the perceived rejection of their own views and activities, you are going to have a mess. There is nothing that is not worthwhile about classical music, or ballet, or museums, or the artwork and architecture of churches and cathedrals and stately homes (created in any event by the working classes, yet peculiarly appreciated more by the elite - fancy rejecting your own handiwork rather than admiring it for the superior skills that the working classes had in the past, even if they were unfairly used or collected for the benefit of a small minority which precluded its very creators from its enjoyment...), theatres and art galleries. Even when these things are made free for people, or affordable, there is a very peculiar rejection of them by some as boring, elitist and not of interest to the majority. Why do some classes and cultures view them as not being relevant to their lives, or some attempt at brainwashing and squashing everything else out if they are introduced to them?

Yet going the other way, there do seem to have been attempts to accept and take part in the activities and interests of other classes and cultures - pop music, by its very name, is more popular than classical music (and pop concerts are not exactly cheap if you want to go to one - you could go to see classical music being played locally for far less money); football is more popular than rugby or cricket or lacrosse or fencing (but is it any cheaper to attend a top football match????); musicals are more popular than opera; cinemas are more popular than museums. It's a bit rich when people complain about something being elitist and then say they don't want it anyway if it is made accessible to them.

It seems to me that some cultures and classes which feel failed by the education system only want to be educated in the things they already have and know a bit about, which doesn't seem like much of an education to me. It is those who are not part of their class or culture who need educating in it - but you cannot provide any kind of depth or quality of understanding in your education system if you do try to cover a little bit about every possible culture in the world, or every culture represented by someone in this country. So you have to pick and choose to a certain extent - and that means that more time will inevitably and rightly be spent on the culture from which we have the most available resources in this country to study, or you will have to divide different groups of people up and give them each a different education and work very hard to get resources from elsewhere, and do an awful lot more overseas trips. If we don't want different groups of people receiving entirely different educations from the beginning of their schooling, then we will inevitably spend a lot of time studying the history of the elite, looking at the things paid for with the money of the elite (but not actually created by the elite), reading the poetry of the elite, reading books which require an understanding of Christianity, because like it or not, Europe was dominated by the "elite" and the Christian religion for centuries, so books written in English for centuries were dominated by references to that. We can't study everything in depth, but that doesn't mean we should study nothing in depth, or reject centuries of prior learning available to us, just because it isn't the prior learning of the culture from which we come (and which we have left in order to live elsewhere). And we will also spend time learning about the way the physical world works and how things are made, how to make things, how to explore things, how to analyse things, how to obtain employment and make your mark on the country in which you live, which happens to have a history we cannot change and cannot pretend didn't happen.

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Colleger · 20/06/2012 11:15

Gosh, rabbit and creamteas are on top form today! :)

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rabbitstew · 20/06/2012 11:58

But of course - pontificating on education is so much more interesting than cleaning the toilet Smile.

Ho, hum. Out with the bleach and on with the gloves...

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wordfactory · 20/06/2012 12:34

For me an education is simply that lifelong process of learning and growing.

As a child it is guided, but by young adulthood one should have taken up the baton oneself. I hope I'm still learning, seeking, asking until the day I die.

What a formal education is for, is an entirely different question, I think. A formal education, nursery, school, university, should simply be a framework to help one's lifelong education.

But IMVHO far too many people see formal education as the whole deal. And that includes far too many parents too!

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Colleger · 20/06/2012 12:48

Agree with the last point especially. I think I viewed posh private schools that way. More fool me!

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wordfactory · 20/06/2012 12:51

Ah colleger I always describe myself as a home educator, and my DC's posh private schools are only one resource we use.

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Colleger · 20/06/2012 13:21

Too late for son1, he'd wonder what the heck I was doing! Son2, I can make up a little on...

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rabbitstew · 20/06/2012 13:29

A formal education isn't just a framework, though, it does need to have future employment in mind and ensure the most basic skills required to make everyone employable are covered (and finding a job for someone unable to read and write is quite a difficult task these days!). It should, of course, also offer a sufficient variety of subjects for particular talents to be discovered and young people to develop flexibility and open minds, so that they can continue to build on the knowledge and skills acquired throughout their lives and access all the wonderful things that are out there to be experienced, and have more than the most basic of jobs open to them at the end of the process (ie it should also be that framework that wordfactory describes).

Educators should, ideally, have a good understanding of the job market and what skills are most needed, so that those lucky enough to have a variety of possibilities to choose from, because they have more than one talent, can be helped to make educated choices. This is where huge inequalities in society cause problems, because people do not necessarily make choices according to their talents so much as choices according to their desired income and lifestyle, or choices linked to their low expectations in life.

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rabbitstew · 20/06/2012 13:32

(Toilet cleaned - tick; garden tidied up a bit - tick; large list of things to do more important than typing on mumsnet on a morning at home resolutely ignored - tick).

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KatyMac · 20/06/2012 13:37

"because people do not necessarily make choices according to their talents so much as choices according to their desired income and lifestyle, or choices linked to their low expectations in life"

This is causing chaos for DD in a 'normal' comp; she is a dancer, she intends to dance as long as she can then change her career to teaching possibly doing a degree as a mature student - so she doesn't fit into their pile in the GCSEs so they can do A-levels & go to uni production line. To put it into context she wants to do 8 GCSEs instead of 14 - how very dare she!

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