Westminster School

[LazyMum123]

Am visiting the school soon and so I am doing my homework and preparing questions to ask on the day of the visit. Any experience or comments ( both positive and negative) would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

[timmytoes]

Ask about the new gym which I think opens in September, on my visit the registrar (who was showing me around) refused to let me see the old one ! I have since learnt he is not keen on sport and thus puts very little emphasis on sport during the tour. As a very central London school I found everything quite compact, e.g. the theatre is compact, the science labs are in a narrow tall building etc, Worth pushing on your odds of getting a place and what they are looking for - I am told maths ability is key (by my DS's headmaster) with the result that a weakness in English may well be overlooked. Post my visit and a subsequent further visit to see a boarding house still not sure, the academics results are impressive BUT ...I am going to ask to go back for another visit with someone other that the registrar. No opportunity to meet a boy or indeed any teachers on my first visit but lots of stuff about historical benefactors such as AA Milne and what a great location the school had. Finally worth thinking about how your DC will get to school 6 days a week, I must admit the tube in rush hour does put me off .

[Needmoresleep]

It is an absolutely fabulous school, but not for all. I would be tempted to take your cue from your son. Do his eyes light up in the yard with both the Abbey and Parliament forming a backdrop, does he love the historic library with a maze of hidden rooms, does he like the idea of venturing out across one of the world's great cities to get to science, music, drama or sport, and the sense of a history of education on the site going back a 1,000 years.

Or does he much prefer the vast playing fields at St Pauls or elsewhere, and a more traditional school structure. There are, as suggested above, some real compromises that come with going to school in the centre of the city. If the school and its setting does not capture his imagination he might be better off elsewhere.

DS is convinced that Mika's "We are Golden" is written about his time at Westminster - with a chorus of "running around again, running for running".

Questions therefore might be around the extent of the compromises that have to be made, eg sport (upside is that there are lots of different sports on offer, downside is a restricted amount of team sports.)

Not surprised you were not shown the old gym. It was buried under the Abbey and was pretty shocking. New one though is amazing. It was used for the BBC1 indent showing trapeze artists on red ribbons hanging from the very high ceiling.

You can tell your son the food is really good. That, from a child's perspective usually counts for something.

[kalidasa]

Old gym was indeed a shocker. Though actually it was known as the "new gym". The old old gym even worse . . .



I was at Westminster. Fantastic school but not for the faint-hearted. I don't like the current headmaster much but he won't be around for ever.

I had an amazing time - better than being an undergraduate - but when I was there (more than fifteen years ago) the food was inedible, the pastoral care pretty hit-and-miss and drugs rampant. I'd want to verify improvement in these areas if considering a boarding place. Probably less important for a day boy. Overall, life-changing for the right child but potentially tough and demoralising for the wrong one so I would think carefully and be led by your son's feelings/enthusiasm.

[tricot39]

Based on a couple of conversations with current pupils there can be confidence issues created in the pupils. 50% of the school to go to oxbridge. That can leave the other half feeling as though they have failed even though they are still incredibly successful in absolute terms. Even those who go on to get oxbridge firsts still dont seem to think this is good enough so could be problematic for sensitive souls.

Interesting comment above on the headmaster. He seems to be considered to be too concerned with image where traditionally the culture was more about substance.

Lots of people come from london but board - presumably to get a place more easily?

Lovely buildings and setting, but the 6 day week seems heavy going. Would love to send my ds though that is never going to happen.

[kalidasa]

Boarding is irrelevant to admissions I think. But it's not an ideal school for boarders without family/friends fairly close by because it is really a weekly-boarding school. School very dead on Sundays and not much put on for them. So I think that's why most boarders are surprisingly local. Definitely not a school I'd choose for, say, a 13 year old with parents abroad, they seemed pretty glum at weekends. Still has a sizable boarding population (about a third I think) but a very different culture from most boarding schools.

Boarding also takes the edge off the 6 day week so quite a few start out as day boys but board, say, during GCSE year or in 6th form.

I agree with the confidence issues. I knew boys who were set for all As at GCSE and A level, could act, sing and play an instrument well and spent the whole time feeling mediocre. (Though a lot of them have gone on to do interesting things.) I think that could be quite tough. On the other hand it did fantastically well by children who would have been failed badly almost anywhere else - curriculum almost infinitely extendable for the very brightest, and huge school tolerance for quirks and oddities. Also genuinely intellectual - as opposed to results-oriented - atmosphere amongst both pupils and staff. Very impressive from that point of view. Teaching was top-notch and many members of staff have doctorates/are still engaged in research of various kinds.

Quite rough-and-tumble socially and pastorally and did I mention the drugs? Even boarders - especially boarders - need good home support I'd say.

[kalidasa]

NB that I still have quite a lot of contact with the school but these comments are based mostly on my experience so things may have changed.

[EdithWeston]

Point of (possibly irrelevantf) detail: "It was used for the BBC1 indent showing trapeze artists on red ribbons hanging from the very high ceiling" - that was filmed at the RHS Linley Hall, part of which has now been acquired for the school's use.

[Needmoresleep]

I dont disagree with the confidence remark though this has not been our experience at all.

The focus has been on learning and enjoying learning, rather than results which has suited DS fine. He has friends who are much cleverer than him but so what. He also has friends who don't star as all round academics but who have some astonishingly quirky talents. There is lots of scope to pursue interests through societies, house competitions, etc so plenty of opportunities to make your mark. The common factor for him and his friends is that they all seem very happy. His group is not particularly cool, so no sign of drugs. I would be surprised if Westminster was the only school in England who did not have a certain level of "experimentation", but there seems to be a general consensus that it is not as "druggy" as it was a decade or two back.

The only issue we have spotted is a level of fatigue from those who may have started young. If a child is having to be prepared heavily for 7+ entry to WUS, and then has to slog for Common Entrance, there is a danger that they see getting into the school as the achievement and then flop or can't find the extra motivation to then slog for the remaining public exams, and then Oxbridge entry. The fact that there are a number of really very very bright students to whom most things seem to come easily, would then be quite demoralising. If getting in is going to be a real effort, it could end up counter productive.

Our experience is that pastoral care is very strong, certainly from a day pupil perspective, where the whole boarding school house structure is in place so a house master and tutors who support pupils through their school career. Westminster is much more of a boarding school than we had expected and there is scope for a day pupil to spend a lot of time at school, effectively 6 days a week from breakfast to dinner with Saturday school and matches. Though not great, obviously, if you have a long commute, six rather than five days a week.

I dont know much about boarding other than to observe that boys switch regularly from one to the other. The availability of boarding is a real attraction for London families who have international or dual careers, so boarders are often local, some living within walking distance of the school. I dont think boarding is the easy way in any more. Indeed for sixth form it is probably the reverse.

[interest]

Is St Paul's equally not for the fainthearted? If so, in what ways? What about the level of pastoral care? We were put off Westminster, as the level of drug taking was appalling when my brother was there 20 years ago, though I'm sure things are better now...

[happygardening]

My DH was at St Pauls and my DS got a place although we turned it down as we wanted boarding. It does what it says on the can there's no meaningless ritual, no fancy uniform, no standing on pointless ceremony. Its a 21st century school with a 21st century ethos the campus has a real university feel about it. We felt very strongly it wasn't for the fainthearted. When my DH was there you were not allowed to do things like art unless you were very obviously talented and we very much got the impression it was the same if not more so now. (My DH who showed no obvious talent at art now draws as part of his job!) The boys at my sons school believe that their friends at St Pauls are expected to work harder than they are although I'm not sure if this is true or just their perception.
I looked at it three times every time wanting to hate it so that I could just concentrate on our eventual choice every time I came away bowled over. I think its a wonderful school.
Paulines have a particular manner which some may not like and label as arrogance! My husband can recognise a Pauline just by talking to them on the phone. He's had a 100% success rate of late although all of course are now grown up so maybe things have changed but I doubt it!

[kalidasa]

Glad to hear the drug-taking has eased a bit. I think you have to be realistic that it will go on in a school with that location, but when I was there it was excessive I think. Not difficult to avoid if you weren't into it - so not an issue of horrible peer-pressure - but nevertheless pervasive and really sabotaged some boys.

Very much agree about the focus on real interest rather than grades, a great strength. Also on reflection agree that it may be harder to get in as a boarder for sixth-form, where there are very limited places and considerable demand.

Also very much agree that if it's going to be a slog to get in you'd probably be doing the child a disservice by sending them. But that's probably true for most of these highly academic schools. Support for dyslexia though is very good. And for quirks/oddities in general.

I'm a lecturer so now see the products of these schools from the perspective of university admissions/undergraduate teaching, which is interesting. Westminsters renowned for a bit of a slump at university!

[Needmoresleep]

I read recently (Economist?) that drug use amongst London teenagers is falling to the extent that it is now lower than in many other regions. I also suspect that the demographics of Westminster's intake has changed over the past couple of decades, in line with the dramatic changes in London demographics, and that this too has reduced the size of any residual drug culture. Certainly for us it has not been an issue, and not something talked about amongst the parents we know. In contrast there are some quite scary tales of expulsions, parties, stomach pumps etc emerging from one or two other schools that DCs peers go to.

The University flop does not surprise. As you say: "I had an amazing time - better than being an undergraduate". Interestingly DS is being encouraged to research which universities are best for his subject. It is not a case of if you are clever enough to get into Oxbridge that's where you go. As it is, lots go to American Universities, but also by the time you have gone through the sixth form you probably don't need to go to Oxbridge if another university offers better teaching.

My impression is that Westminster and St Pauls are very different schools. Some boys will say "why would I go to Westminster when I could go to St Pauls", whilst others will say the reverse. St Pauls' location and facilities are overwhelming, so to are Westminster's but in a different way. Any boy who has a choice is very lucky and as long as the boy is involved there really cant be a wrong decision.

[kalidasa]

That's interesting about the drug culture in London as a whole. My own experience was mid-90s and although I never so much as smoked a cigarette it was obvious at university that I had been exposed to much more drug-taking than friends from almost any other school. That was partly an effect of boarding.

I'm not sure about the demographics of the school in relation to that of London as a whole, but it's an interesting point. It was markedly international even then but the relative cost has gone up a lot so that must have made a difference. They also make a huge effort to keep up with alumni now.

I have friends who teach at St Paul's and I have visited the school recently in a professional capacity. It seems very impressive in a different way I agree - very down to earth, much more of a traditional school in atmosphere, but very appealing. I like the obvious work ethos and unpretentiousness. The sports facilities are obviously great, the location is lovely right on the river and the whole thing feels very practical and self-contained. Just expecting my first at the moment so this stuff is a way off for us but I think they're both great schools.

[witchwithallthetrimmings]

when i was there (mid 1980s) the joke was that there was no drug problem because you could get anything you wanted

[kalidasa]

ha! yes that was pretty much my experience too. I was so staggeringly naive when I arrived though that it all sort of washed over me . . .

[BigMug]

I was there in the 80s and drugs were rife. Also some of the bullying of the younger boys was horrific. Not just the "fagging" culture but also things like defecating in other boys' school bags
The pastoral care was pretty rubbish unless you were a boarder.
I agree with the comments about feeling stupid unless you went to Oxbridge. However, I think that did spur on pretty much everyone to give it a go, which is a good thing. I only ended up with an Oxbridge place because of the amazing teaching I had and the help I got with selecting which college to apply to.
All in all an incredible school but a lot of bad behaviour as well. I was there the year of the infamous Carol Service in St Margaret's....

[thirdhill]

tsk tsk I've been told that every boy knows full well, that when asked by touring parents if there is a drug problem, the answer is not: None whatsoever, what did you want?

[millpond]

We are considering westminster for our DS in a couple of years. We aren't sure about St Pauls and its location is a bit too far south for us.
This thread is a real eye opener and hasn't put me off Westminster! but realistically I know we should try DS at 2 or 3 schools and have back up plans, he is only young so not really sure what will suit him best just yet, he is sporty as well as academic. Can any of you wise London education experts recommend other schools we should look at?
Thanks!

[witchwithallthetrimmings]

i think we must have overlapped bigmug (me 1984-1986)

[witchwithallthetrimmings]

i think the worst aspect of the school then was the treatment of the girls and the inability of the teachers to do anything about it.

[interest]

Pastoral care in my brother's day (he was a boarder) was almost non-existent. Total failure to crack down on drug use. He was even introduced to heroin, though I doubt that would happen now. I just get the impression St Paul's is perhaps a less glamorous but more normal school, while there's still a brainy decadent rich kid element at Westminster

[happygardening]

When DH was at St Pauls early 80's there was hardly any drug culture. I once read St Pauls lacks the social cachet of Westminster just groaning in exceedingly pushy parents! Even when my DH was there the parents were unbelievably pushy; my MIL is pushiness personified.

[BigMug]

There was zero pushiness when I was at Westminster. It wasn't particularly cool to work hard but the year end exams were fiercely competitive, especially once girls were introduced into the equation and regularly beat the boys. As Witchwithallthetrimmings says, the way girls were treated was bad - they were seen as being there merely to provide competition for the boys along with teaching them some manners. The fact that they probably boosted the school's results can't have hurt. Less attractive and confident girls probably had a horrible time, particularly if they did traditional boys' subjects.

[kalidasa]

I think treatment of girls was a bit better by my time (mid-90s) though still quite rough-and-tumble. Tougher I agree if you were less attractive or less confident, even in mainstream classes you could easily be one of only one or two girls in a set; also I boarded and in the evenings and weekends girls were hugely outnumbered, there were only about 20-30 of us in total. On the plus side, I found my confidence hugely increased by the experience and have been at ease in male-dominated contexts ever since, sadly still a useful skill.

Agree about lack of pushiness. Parents' evenings were called "parents' parties" and featured wine.

I would be pleased if the drug issue has eased; but I'd also be wary of assuming any parent knows what goes on. I certainly never breathed a word to mine and there are still things I would hesitate to tell them!

Bullying of younger boys by older was definitely a problem especially among boarders; though I think already a bit better than it had been. There were still remnants of fagging too - in my boarding house the youngest boys had certain set duties like waking up older boys at their preferred time.

Still a fantastic experience for me, but as I say, with all the elements of a very unfantastic experience for the wrong child. Very interesting to hear of others' experiences. Would be good to hear from someone who had left more recently but I guess they are less likely to be on mumsnet.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

I was told by a mum whose son left about 10 years ago that the pastoral care was pretty limited to say the least. It may have improved more recently.