Admissions - schools aren't meant to know preference order are they?

[toutlemonde]

I came across this when googling about for something else - free school proposal to start a primary. To save you downloading and reading the boring thing, the bit I was surprised at was: "In West London Free School?s second year [i.e. the current round] it received 254 first preference applications for 120 places".

Am I being unreasonable to think that: (1) schools aren't meant to know whether they have been placed first, second or whatever on the application forms, at least until after all the allocations have been made? (2) if the data is available, it should be available as it relates to all schools for parents, to help with either appeals or deciding where to apply in future years' admission rounds?

[Blu]

I am no expert in this, but maybe whilse they aren't allowed to know the preferences of individual applicants they do get general statistics like this - partly, maybe, so that they can anticipate the likely level of appeals and post offfer day pressure they will come under?

Though I am surprised they do have this information if it about the current round.

[toutlemonde]

Thanks Blu, my assumption is it's dodgy, especially as our tory council is so desperate for WLFS to succeed.

We are still a full month off the date when parents are told which school their children have been allocated, so I think it is a problem that such specific information as this is known to the school.

Just had a quick search on mumsnet and pleny of comments that schools aren't meant to know the preference orders - one thread here - but I take your point that they may know no more about the individual applicants.

[Bethnella]

I have been under the impression that no school gets to know what order you put schools in!! When the schools offer the places out, each person will receive the offer that comes from the school highest up on their list rather then get several offers. The offers that don't get handed out then go back for the second round of offers. I am hoping its not the case that schools are able to know the place they hold within your choice. Maybe WLFS are a law unto themselves!!! I am beginning to feel that way!

[Blu]

But not knowing the preference of any individual applicants during the admissions process is very different from being told the number of first preferences, or indeed last preferences, the school was named as.

Are you sure the year mentioned is the current process?

Admissions or prh47 will know the answer to this one!

[hocuspontas]

As long as they don't know individual preferences I can't see the harm in them knowing how many put them first. I.e. as a total given to them by the LA. But then I can't see what good it does either. Maybe just to blow their own trumpet?

[toutlemonde]

I'm sure they are a law unto themselves Bethnella - this year anyone who applied to them had to get their applications in a week early (why? so they get first pick?!)

Last year they had a completely separate application process from all the other secondary schools.

If they are privy to information they shouldn't have (at least not yet!), I look forward to seeing this come out and be explained.

[admission]

For secondary schools they will by now have had preliminary indications of the number of applications in terms of first, second and third preferences and this is almost certainly the data that they are quoting. What the school will not have had is any data which matches pupils to preferences, so when the school if they are their own admission authority puts the pupils in the correct order for admission under the admission criteria they will not know what preference the school is. The completed list goes back to the local authority and they then match preferences to places to produce the final list of pupils who will be allocated a place at the school.

[toutlemonde]

Absolutely certain its current round, they only opened in September, this is the 2nd round of admissions for them.

I see what you're saying Blu and hocuspontus, but if they get to blow their own trumpet and use the high number of first preference applicants for their own purposes, then I think we should have access to the comparable data for other schools.

Just odd having use of such a specific statistic when they should still be at the stage of allocations.

[toutlemonde]

OK, just read your post admission - so are all schools given the number of applications in terms of first, second and third preferences? That puts it in a different light if so. I still think the information should be available for parents if it is available though.

[Blu]

Hocus - I think that info would be useful to them - for example if I was a governor of a school that everyone put last I would be wanting to know why, and do something about it. Also, if you know that the majority of applicants to your school ranked it as a middle preference then you would expect the waiting lists to be shorter because peopel would put themselves on lists for thier fiorst and second choices. And maybe they need notice to batten down the hatches and run into exile on Mar 2nd if they discover that all the aplications to their school were 1st preference!

Toute - most Free, Academy or Foundation schools seem to have a supplementary application form and process that needs to be filled in in addition to the CAF application. We had to take the supplementary form to the local foundation comp a week before the CAF was due.

[toutlemonde]

We did some supplementary forms too Blu, including for WLFS, but last year it was a special form and process instead of the CAF - you could use all your 6 choices on CAF and be allocated a school place that way, but in addition be allocated a WLFS place if they wanted you

[Blu]

Toute - I THINK that 'number of first preference' figure is available thorugh your LA. Certainly we were told the distance of the furthes succesful applicant in the tightest and largest ability bands, and the number of applications overall. The thing is, it can just give you another imponderable to worry about, 'The number of first preferences with a realistic hope of getting in might be useful. For our local comp people from miles around, with no chance of getting in, put it down as first preference - what parents need to be able to do is guage the level of relaistic competition.

[Blu]

So that completely undermines the whole point of the CAF?
Madness - I don't know why the gvt are setting up a system where these schools can just do what they want but with taxpayers money.

[toutlemonde]

Thanks Blu, I hope that most LAs have the decency to wait until the nailbiting of the actual allocations are done!

I was amazed when I looked at the information a neighbouring LA gave about numbers, how successful applicants fit the criteria etc. I believe it would have made the whole process less stressful and more manageable if our LA had done the same. I don't understand why all LAs aren't required to give the same level of information to be honest.

[hocuspontas]

I agree about knowing the preferences is interesting for the school, it's just the timing I find odd. I didn't know that LAs divulged these statistics so early in the admissions process.

[prh47bridge]

I think last year was different because WLFS came onstream late. I haven't checked but the system now should be that you apply to WLFS on the CAF in the same way as for all other schools and you will receive a single offer from the LA. Schools are very definitely not allowed to do just what they want.

[toutlemonde]

You're right prh47bridge, that system was just for the first year at WLFS. But there was no obvious reason why it was necessary even for a year - everything was ready in an appropriate timescale to have gone through CAF.

[Bethnella]

Like I said, WLFS want to be a law unto themselves! They really pushed for parents to put them as a first choice...even sending out emails to parents after the admissions had started! The whole process is so stressful! Glad I only have 1!

[Imogenh]

I Chair the Admissions Committee at a Voluntary Aided High School. Each year, in early December we get a list of applicants who have put our school on their preference form for Year 7 the following year. We don't know if it is a first, second or third preference. We also get told by the Local Authority how many first preferences there are. When the offer letters go out on 1 March, we get a list of people who have been offered a place at our school. At no time do we know whether our school was a first, second or third preference for an individual child, though later in the year, the Local Authority does produce a paper for a Council meeting showing the number of first, second and third preference for each school in the Authority.

[toutlemonde]

Thanks Imogenh, that's very helpful, and in light of which I guess I was being a bit paranoid...

[prh47bridge]

toutlemonde - The timescales for CAF are longer than you might think. Things have to be ready pretty early. To be on the CAF they would need to have finalised their admission arrangements by mid-April 2010, with the deadline for objections to the Schools Adjudicator being 31st July 2010.

I don't know for sure but I suspect the fact they weren't included on the CAF was down to the LA rather than being the school's choice. Their funding agreement (as for all academies and free schools) requires them to participate in the co-ordinated admissions scheme operated by their LA so the school doesn't actually have any choice.

[Blu]

The school was e mailing parents urging them to put the school as first preference?

Talk about marketing! So, they used the early submission of a supplementary form to gain e mail addressses and email people before the CAF deadline?

The advice is put schools in the genuine order you prefer them - so why would they be telling people to put them first in addition to that advice?

[Bethnella]

I think it was to make sure parents knew that if they were offered a place there but also offered a place at their first choice they would not get the offer from them.....also it's obvious they want all of their first offers to be accepted rather then go through the process again.