Waiting Lists - Grammar Schools

[mumwithtwokids]

Just wanted to know if anyone can shed some light on the whole waiting list situation. Is there much movement? Also if for example 500 children pass the entrance exam, is the entire list passed to the LEA in rank order, or is there a cut off point e.g. only the first 300 are put forward?

Thanks!

[lambbone]

I can help you there, as I do that job.

Let's assume there is a pass mark (this isn't the case at all grammar schools - they just work their way down the lst)

In your example, 500 children pass the test. Yes, the names of all 500 are passed, in rank order, to the local authority.

Let's assume that the school in question has 150 places. It is exceedingly unlikely that it will work out as the top 150 will get a place, leaving 350 on the waiting list.

This is because of those 500 who have passed the test at school A, a significant number will also have passed the test at school B, and school B will be their preferred school.

So, let's say that of those 500, 200 have been offered a place at a higher ranked school, leaving 300 available to school A. The remaining highest ranked 150 will be offered places at school A, leaving 150 on the waiting list for school A.

I'll make that do for now - but there's more! Lots more! Post again for more info if you want it.

[mumwithtwokids]

Thanks lambbone - yes would definitely like a bit more info if you have it :)

[gazzalw]

Lambbone that is very interesting information and well asked Mumwithtwokids...(hello!)

Do you have any idea how many of the ones passing for School A might also have passed for School B and possibly Schools C and D too? Presumably the Councils compile yearly stats which might include number of children passing 11+ for different schools in a Borough/Education Authority. Although it will vary slightly year on year presumably there will be a % (any idea what type of figure we are talking about?) who will have passed all exams they have taken.

Presumably the odds of getting a place at a grammar school are statistically increased with every 11+ passed. How likely is it that a child who has passed 2, 3 or 4 11+ exams won't get a place?

Asking because have DS who has passed 3, but have heard tales of boys in years gone by who have passed two but not got in......

We were feeling reassured when we got the third pass result earlier on this week but now doubt is starting to set in....

[Yellowstone]

OP there's far less movement for superselectives, though there is still some. Less in an area without top private schools though.

[lambbone]

LA's do compile statistics about the number of applications received by each maintained school in their area (at any preference level), but for the 11+ pass rate you'd have to contact the individual schools. And the duplicate pass level would not be released as this would involve the LA revealing confidential information to schools. Though I'm sure the jungle drums around the school gate would give you a bit of an idea.

It would be perfectly possible for a child to pass a number of 11+ exams and not be offered a place at a selective school, if s/he was near the bottom of the rank order at all of them.

At the school where I work, there is quite a lot of movement on the waiting list. You will be aware that the motor driving waiting list movement is withdrawal from the system, usually because someone who has been offered a place takes up a place in the independent sector. But there is quite a bit of shuffling about, because the acceptance of an Indy place by someone who has a offer from one grammar is likely to have implications for all the grammars in the area.

And don't forget that after the 1st March people who hadn't previously listed the school on the CAF, or had listed another school above it, can ask to go on the waiting list and must go on it in rank order.

Want more?

[gazzalw]

Fascinating Lambbone, but now we don't feel reassured - I would have thought that if a DC has passed two/three/four 11+ they are more likely to be a consistent (and therefore higher) pass level rather than just scraping through - obviously I'm sadly deluded (hmm]

I'm also quite shocked about the extra people just being able to jump onto the waiting list bandwagon....oh so depressed.

So there's no way of finding out (would the individual schools tell us about trends from years past?) how many children who passed the 11+ totally miss out on a grammar school place per borough?

As you can tell my maths is O Level Standard(ish) so I have this vision of a series of overlapping venn diagrams with those who have passed (or not) for one/two/three/four grammars - with some type of central number of around 200 who have passed all that they have taken/sat -my brain is going into paroxysms just trying to work this one out logically (and I'm failing)

Hmmmmmm! Any idea what the rate of attrition from state school system happens once the 1st March offers have happened - I guess it varies from area and probably more likely in London, particularly in super-selective grammar parts where they are highly (if not more) sought after private school options - judging from a couple of current threads here....

[mumwithtwokids]

Hi Lambbone - Can schools see where you have placed them in the CAF?

[lambbone]

No. Absolutely not.

[mumwithtwokids]

Phew - for a horrible moment I though that we would have to kiss goodbye to our third preference.

Not sure if you work for a grammar school or not but maybe you could answer this question. When we found out that my DS had passed his first entrance exam, I called up the school to see if we could have another look around before submitting the CAF. Before telling me that we could she took my son's details and had to go and speak to someone. I found this rather odd but is this standard practice?

[lambbone]

Maybe the person you spoke to wasn't involved with admissions and went to speak to the person who is. Don't read too much into it.

[gazzalw]

Didn't think they could when they first make offers.... are you talking about once the 1st March Offers have been made???

Presumably some of the super-selectives are more popular than others too - do many parents select ostensibly on league table (thinking Sunday Times Best State Secondaries one) results and which potentially have most kudos - and is the % pass rate roughly equal at all the grammars or does that vary quite markedly thereby impacting on odds of getting in...

[admission]

The grammar schools near me do different tests from one school to another, so it is perfectly possible for pupils to pass one and fail another. The admission criteria says must pass the test for that school so if you do not pass then fail at the first hurdle as far as the admission criteria is concerned.
They also locally do not admit based on highest test scores they have a set pass / fail mark and then admit mainly on distance from the school after sibling links.

[lambbone]

Hi Admission!
Obviously I don't know the oversubscription criteria for all 160-odd grammars in the country, but it would be quite common for the superselectives (ie those without a catchment) to use distance from the school as a tiebreak if two or more children have the same test score.
The Admissions Code 2012 forbids designated grammar schools from using sibling links as one of their oversubscription criteria.

[mumwithtwokids]

We'll see what news the 1st March delivers but not holding out much hope :(

It's our first time going through this but think grammars should be more transparent with test results as it would help make a much more informed choice.

[Yellowstone]

Ours uses distance from school as a tie breaker in the event of an identical score for the last (120th) place.

[admission]

Lambbone,
Yes the wording has been subtly changed in the new admission code by the addition of then, so it now says that the following is not allowed

^in designated grammar schools that rank all children according to a
pre-determined pass mark and then allocate places to those who
score highest, give priority to siblings of current or former pupils;^

So locally they have put all those who pass a minimum standard into the grinding pot and have used sibling as a criteria before distance. Suppose it depends on how you want to read the admission regs but that is what they are doing.

[gazzalw]

Hi, Admission, as you rightly stated "you don't know the policies for all 160-odd grammar schools', but just wondered if you can shed any light (on the basis of previous experience) on just how many children (I guess as a %) on waiting lists come 1st March, do realistically stand a chance of going up the list and getting offered a place before they are due to go up to secondary school?

I am getting a vibe, from reading current threads on private school applications for 11+ age for 2012/13, that in the London area there will be some DCs who will most likely be offered super-selective grammar and private school places (if not bursaries and scholarships) and this is going to have a butterfly effect on the whole secondary school selection process right up to and possibly into Autumn Term 2012/13?

[lambbone]

Hi Gazza
I'm not at work so don't have all the figures from my place to hand, but didn't want to ignore, and I'll give you the data tomorrow. Give me a prod if I don't appear.

[gazzalw]

Thanks Lambbone, your helpful comments are much appreciated!!!

I also don't understand why one super-selective will give parents details of how many children took the exam/passed and others (in the same Borough/Education Authority) won't divulge the same information, even if one asks - surely the whole Freedom of Information Act means that they can't refuse provided one isn't asking information that is specific to one's own DC!

[Ingles2]

Hi Mumwithtwokids
Have you had a look at the 11+ forum for your area? there are lots of people on there who have shared their experience. Also if you are Kent, you should have a look at Peter Read's Kent Advice
He's knowledgable on all things school in Kent, but a lot applies to other areas.
Last year, we were on the waiting list for a TW super selective and the grammar in Ashford which allocates on distance with a Kent Test 11+ pass.
Kent test pass is 360 / 420 with super selectives starting at 420 with a cut off of 416 in first round, dropping to about 410 from waiting list.
On offer day, you get to apply to waiting list from any of the schools on your SCAF. some are maintained by the school, others by the LEA.
We were on 2 lists, our 1st choice being the Ashford grammar,
On the 1st May, the LEA allocates again and you can find out your position on lists. We were originally 5th on our 1st choice list and by the time of our appeal 1st... so not much movement really, however that is because in Ashford there is only 1 boys grammar. Where there are a number of grammars, there is more movement, The TW supers shuffled 20/30 boys on 1st May I think.
The LEA allocates on the 1st of every month until appeal date and as someone else said up page, people can step in ahead of you on the list, so you can go down as well as up unfortunately.
Are you in the London Boroughs?
does that help any?

[Ingles2]

as I understood it gazzalw if you quote the freedom of information act at the school, they must provide you with the information you request. We did this last year to find out how many successful appeals had been admitted the previous year.

[mumwithtwokids]

Hi Ingles2,

I'm in Sutton which has 3 boys grammars but all three are massively oversubscribed. They do operate a distance from school criteria for marks which are the same and we do live locally so I'm keeping my fingers crossed but not holding out much hope.

For some reason two of our grammars won't disclose how many boys sat the exam or passed it so just feel that we are very much in the dark.

[animula]

gazzalw If this helps - from what I recall, the Sutton grammars send out 3 types of letter. One says "Sparing a disaster, your ds has a place"; another says "Your ds probably has a place"; third says "sorry". I don't know, personally, of anyone who received a "probably" letter who didn't get a place.

You should be able to get the results of the Wandsworth test either now or soon. Ds came home from school with the results of his but I think if you're out of borough you need to contact the council (??). 98 % was the out of catchment entry mark in his year.

I expect it's the same deal with Dunraven (don't know if you've applied there) - though I don't know what the pass mark was.

Is any of that reassuring?

[gazzalw]

Thank you Animula - the Wandsworth Test Result would be good to know and no, I had no idea that one could get it for one's child. We are out of Borough - I recall someone said that the results are sent to school Heads - is that right?

The other information is very useful too! So thanks for that!

Does anyone know people who got 3 or 4 "sorry" type letters even though they passed all the 11+ exams they took?

As MumWithTwoKids said, the grammars are very direct in their "don't ask us any more questions until after 1st March" in the pass emails/letters sent out. Except for one. So you reckon, Ingles2, that if I am bold and ask quoting that Act they can't refuse me?

[animula]

gazzalw - the letters I was talking about were the ones that came to say if your son had passed or not - the "sorry" was to say they hadn't passed. Basically, when ds took the tests it was fairly clear from the "pass/fail" letter whether he had a place or not: the letters told you he had a virtually guaranteed place and I didn't know anyone that passed and didn't get a place (even if they had to wait a bit on the waiting list).

Sorry - it sounds as though the letters might be a bit different in this year. And, obviously, things change each year, so it might not be the case that all the boys who pass get a place in the end. and I may not have known a representative sample.

Don't know about Wandsworth test results going to the Head, sorry.

But I think if your ds has passed 3 of the exams it's going to be OK.