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Secondary education

How 'hard' are GCSEs compared with 'O' levels?

91 replies

ProperLush · 09/11/2011 08:36

And yes, how long is a piece of string??!

This is why I ask:

  • Obviously because I don't know, or maybe I should say 'am less sure' than I was


  • I just finished watching 'Educating Essex' and, tbh, was rather surprised about the number of DCs who appeared to have a limited idea about what their subject was about, yet they were shown passing the GCSE (memorably: 'What is pi? WHERE did it come from?'); and the drifting, troubled truants seem to be getting 5 to 7 GCSEs.


  • My slightly aggrieved friend who has 2 x DDs in uni and a struggling Y10 DS (and who herself has 13 'O' levels) was at pains to tell me GCSEs aren't easier, they're 'different' BUT then said there is no need to remember the whole syllabus. You break the subject into small chunks, learn that chunk, sit a module in it, then resit til you get the right mark. That sounds very different to me! For a start in my similarly aged social circle, the non fellow-HCP one, I am often, well, surprised at how few have any 'O' levels or even more than a clutch of GCSEs if they're younger which leads me to believe that 'O' levels were a different beast entirely to GCSEs


This isn't an 'exams were far harder than in my day' rant. But they do appear to be different!

I have been tying myself in knots about my DS2, Y6 who to my mind, is not academic. He 'passed' his KS1 SATS and I'm told should 'pass' his KS2s if he 'keeps progressing as he is now'. In my opinion that either means the school is a bit deluded or the 'pass' level is lamentably low! MY 'target' as his parent was to help him get '5 GCSEs at A-C including Eng and Maths'. Of course, that goal post has now shot off around the pitch; it's now the Eng Bacc. I'd think I was realistic enough to recognise that the MFL component may prove too much for DS2 but then I think, 'Actually, I am comparing the degree of difficulty with an 'O' level, but that may not in fact be the case. Maybe DS2 will 'walk' a reasonable clutch of GCSEs as they are 'easier' if only because of the 'small bit of knowledge then test, and resit if necessary' approach'.

I am wondering if the fact the uninterested, gobby, non attending, slightly gormless, or at least appearing to not have grasped the basics of their subject Y11s are getting a good slew of GCSEs whether I need not fear for my quiet, attentive, well behaved DS2!

WDYT?
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Dragonwoman · 09/11/2011 09:13

Well I took a GCSE about 9 years ago and I didnt find it any easier than the o levels I took at school. It was chemistry and it was mostly exam with small amounts of coursework but not broken into modules. Everyone was telling me I was sure to get an A. I didn't. Blush

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Kez100 · 09/11/2011 09:25

Grades are different now. When I did O levels (and the odd CSE) my CSE certificate says the average for a 16 year old was Grade 4 CSE. Therefore, to my mind, Grade A* to C covers ability range O level to,perhaps,Grade 3/4 CSE. So, people who get a Grade C cannot compare with an O level Grade C, they are different.

However, children are still as clever as we were. So anyone coming out with 10 A* would have batted me into a corner in O level time too.

Modules aren't easier because they require consistent work throughout the two years. For my O level I worked from Easter to the summer of year 5 (now called year 11). My daughter has had to work the whole of the two years consistently. The system plays to the strengths of someone who works like that. It doesn't play to the strength of the lazy person who only works hard just as the deadline looms.

So, yes, they are different and I find it very sad that our children who are doing what they are given (by our generation in the exam boards and Government) receive such negative responses to their exams. It is NOT in their control. Give them credit for that and celebrate their success.

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Kez100 · 09/11/2011 09:30

Re: pi

It is certainly required in the foundation maths papers. Probably a Grade D or C question. So, children not at that level may not have grasped it and the odd C Grader might not (assuming they have nailed the rest of the syllabus) but I would expect children getting D's and C's to know about pi (in terms of circumference and area)

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Hullygully · 09/11/2011 09:32

My dc are going through gcses, they have to do a bloody sight more work than I ever did with modules and controlled assessments etc as well as exams. I did nowt until about 3 weeks before the exams.

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Hullygully · 09/11/2011 09:32

And the exams are split into higher and lower tiers so not all the same.

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Hullygully · 09/11/2011 09:32

Courses, not exams.

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OneHandFlapping · 09/11/2011 09:42

I think there are differences. For example, in my French O level, we had to do an unseen dictation, and unseen translation, French to English, and one English to French, and oral exam on a topic which was not disclosed to us beforehand, and a letter/essay on an unknown topic. All at the end of the school year, too, not in little chunks throughout the year. I came out with enough understanding of French to bumble my way round in the language without much diffculty.

DSs (who are doing German) seem to be given all translations beforehand to memorise, the same with dictation, are given the subject of their orals, and essays seem to have been replaced with short questions and answers. Plus, "coursework" is scattered throughout the school year. DS1, who is now in 6th form, got an A*, and appears unable to speak a word of useful German.

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bruffin · 09/11/2011 10:07

From what I have read a pass at olevel is equivelant to an A/A* gcse.
When I did o'levels we were told 5 o'level passes put you in the top 15% of the country. You have also to remember that a D at olevel was a fail, but by less than 5%. whereas now an E is a pass.
Agree with Onehand that the languages now are little more than a memory test but that doesn't suit my DS at all.
English Literature we were not allowed to take anything into the exam at all, now I believe they get some sort of study note. We had to be able to quote as well as discuss the book/poem etc

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C4ro · 09/11/2011 10:15

I am the school year group where GCSE were a very new invention so without many past-papers to work against, we used a lot of O level papers. I believe the difficulty of the questions was really similar but the change was in the syllabus/ topics covered. An old O level paper would have several questions on topics we hadn't covered- all those would look hard of course but the questions that were on both the syllabus' were about the same level.

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ProperLush · 09/11/2011 12:53

I am feeling encouraged that DS2 would be capable of a CSE grade 3 in his core subjects which I'm gathering will equal a 'pass' at GCSE.

If I keep on at him he might be able to keep up the 'little and often' approach to his work that might help him learn a bit, be tested on it, resit it if necessary, move on. He won't recall a jot of it, but hey!

Of course, this is all a bit cynical. I, and most people would agree that this approach hardly examines (and rewards) a good, solid, properly understood and learned body of work such as required by an 'O' level, albeit achieved in a few months of bloody hard revision; rather a good short term memory and conscientious approach to coursework which seems to be the GCSE way! This might give DS2 a chance of passing which, when it comes down to it, is the Name of the Game, isn't it?

Unless the government move the goalposts again.... which I believe has already happened to a certain extent? Less teacher-assessed 'coursework' and a limit to retakes?

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mottledcat · 09/11/2011 12:53

You need not fear.

I am currently on third DC taking GCSEs.

GCSEs are certainly easier 'different' to the old 'O' levels. There is no comparison really. They do actually do more non-stop work for them, but it is in manageable chunks and now they can even re-take modules to get the grades up. A number of pupils at my DS2's school are re-taking their individual science modules as they 'only' got As and want to get As!!!!

My DS1 did absolutely the bare minimum for his GCSEs but still passed them with reasonable grades including his French GCSE without being able to understand, or really speak, any French, quite a feat I thought.....

Having said that, he was certainly capable of getting all As, but got what he deserved, so you do have to work a bit to get the top grades and those that do, certainly deserve them. They have to work within the system, and it isn't to say those who get all A
s these days wouldn't have got top grades in the old 'O' level system too.

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Tinuviel · 09/11/2011 13:09

Languages are very different and I would say definitely easier. However, there is a much bigger emphasis on 'learning by heart', something they are not used to doing so find very difficult.

I have seen 3 changes in the spec for GCSE languages and the first 2 made it easier! The more recent one, has made some things easier and if you teach it in the right way, definitely no harder.

However, I hope that these more recent changes will make schools realise that they need to teach children to actually manipulate language and so move onto more grammatically based teaching. The problem with that is that the textbooks are rubbish.

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cat64 · 09/11/2011 13:11

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mrsrhodgilbert · 09/11/2011 13:17

I agree about language teaching. Surely the point of learning another language is so that it will be useful to you, not just so it's another pass at GCSE. Dd1 did French and German and cannot actually construct a sentence in either language yet she has passes in both. I can still speak reasonable French learnt in the late '70s.

It certainly needs looking at and the teachers must hate it.

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Tinuviel · 09/11/2011 13:20

I do, but a lot of younger teachers have never known any different because we have been teaching like this for years! Happily I am leading a 1-person campaign in my dept to change things a lot and my HOD seems to be coming on board!

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Kez100 · 09/11/2011 13:28

I'm not sure how many resits there are in reality.

Daughter has science modules and, if she doesn't get her target grade, can resit each once but right at the end and with no extra in school study help. So, yes, it's a second chance but it's certainly not resit after resit (maybe thats just her school though).

Maths is linear - so no modules there.

English has controlled assessments and, I understand, there is no room on timetable for extra chances at these (but one opportunity for each unit to redo using a new question will be available in after school hours).

I agree that MFL memorising requirements are ridiculous though. Exam boards really ought to get a grip on those.

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ProperLush · 09/11/2011 13:45

I guess 'the problem' comes with this endless changing of 'the requirements' is that unless you rename the final exams, DCs aren't really being fairly measured against other people who may be only a couple of years older or younger than themselves but who are at about the same level once at work, in that one lot was gained with 8 resits and no memory work, the other on a more 'O' level based approach.

As for the 'not fair' on the brightest, that's true. If they got an A, who's to say they wouldn't have scored A if that was available? But that only applies to the 'A' grade pupils. A 'B' grader knows where s/he sits!

Anyway, I must say I do feel a bit less stressed now I am getting a stronger feeling that DS2 may well get a reasonable number of GCSE passes.

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Themumsnot · 09/11/2011 13:59

My daughter has just started year 10. She is working hard - she has already sat one controlled assessment, and several mock exams and will sit some exams for real very soon. I would say that she is working far harder than I did. Her targets are all A* and A, and although she is extremely bright there is no way she would achieve them without putting in a reasonable amount of work. Don't forget that GCSEs are not a straight replacement for O-Levels they are sat by the children would would have done CSEs under the old system as well.

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mummytime · 09/11/2011 14:00

They are different. No you don't have to memorise whole rafts of facts, but you are expected to understand and apply knowledge more than old style O'levels. Also there is a set pass mark, whereas in the olden days the pass mark varied so a select percentage of pupils got each grade. What is taught/learnt is different too. Somethings have moved up (to A'level etc.) but other things are now in GCSE that I didn't touch until degree or actually weren't known about eg. Tetra-waves as in the 3D scanners at Airports were barely known about, or buckyballs - not discovered.

Also the number of resits possible is decreasing (and I resat one exam twice back in the old days, its just you had to do the whole thing, not just one component). Also coursework is going on the whole, or done in school now.

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Kez100 · 09/11/2011 14:06

That reminds me of another thing. We could double enter - O level and CSE at the same sitting. So, effectively had two chances at a C/Grade 1.

Now, foundation and Higher papers overlap and are taken on the same day and at the same time, so you can only do one. That is a big disadvantage for the borderline student.

I double entered English Language. I got an A in O level and a Grade 2 CSE. I think that shows that exams are 'on the day' and a poor performance is not necessarily an indicator of ability.

I'd have had a very different life without my English Grade (the course I took needed it and led to me being offered a training contract with employment). I am a advocate of 'reasonable' numbers of opportunities

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MintAero · 09/11/2011 14:18

When they talked about the achievements for those students at the end of the programme saying "so and so left with 9 gcse's," did you happen to get that quick glance at the results slip. It waws very fleeting, but predominantly they were d's to e. To me this does not show a child has gained much of a knowledge in the subject. You practically have to right your name to get an E these days.

Just like the girl who was 'top' in the science I think it was. Did really well with one mark off a C. That tells you that although she is top in the class, what did the rest get.

I did 'o' levels as am ancient.

Maybe wrong, but when looking at my dc results, I only look at C to A as passes. The rest IMO are a fail. But that is my own opinion. I know that in order to continue through to A level in any subjects you need B or above so this is where it counts.

If I were an employer I would not just take the fact that they have 10 gcse's I would be looking at how many of them are showing proper knowledge of a subject, particularly maths and english. C shows you are capable. D and below means you have struggled.

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titchy · 09/11/2011 14:20

There is absolutely no doubt they are easier!

Intelligence has NOT increased over the last 30 years, but pass rates have, therefore if they are easier to pass they are easier full stop.

Facts:
1988 - just under 30% of children gained 5+ O Levels/CSE Grade 1
1992 - 38% of children gained 5+ GCSEs A* - C
1999 - 49% of children gained 5+ GCSEs A* - C
2010 - 53% etc

A Levels are also easier. A 'C' grade in 1990 would be a 'B' now.

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ProperLush · 09/11/2011 14:32

MintAero- I wonder if that top-of-science' girl was top of that particular class, which they didn't make clear? Like maybe top of is it 'foundation' science? Or whatever it's called? As opposed to 'top of triple science'.

God, (I think!) I'd love to see a fly-on-the-wall doco about my DS's secondary! DH and I were comparing exactly how far we would have flown through the air with a toe up our arses on Week One, Day One, if we'd dared cheek our teachers like that! I'm ex girls GS, DH is Australian state 'comprehensive'.

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ProperLush · 09/11/2011 14:33

But the program further reinforced my long-held view that there's no way on god's sweet earth I could be a teacher!

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MintAero · 09/11/2011 14:35

oh it would definitely have been a foundation class. It was a very small school so not sure if there were other classes in the year group.

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