The two vote/ split vote thing. Scottish elections.

(53 Posts)
OldCrowMedicineShow Tue 19-Apr-16 17:11:28

Can anyone offer a simple explanation please?
As in telling a five year old.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 19-Apr-16 17:16:41

It's bollocks.

In a PR system (which we have-ish) tactical voting pretty much entirely pointless.

Vote for who you want as constituency and list MPs.

If your question is how does PR work then this is good wingsoverscotland.com/ams-for-lazy-people/ Yes, it's Wings, but this particular piece is factual and is a good explanation.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 17:25:56

ItsAll has it covered. I've read endless arguments about it (mostly on the SNP1/Green/Rise2 rather than SNP 1&2 thing, that's just the groups I read) and yes, vote however you feel, vote Ruthie x 2 if you want; tactical voting is virtually impossible.

OldCrowMedicineShow Tue 19-Apr-16 17:27:17

Thanks ItsAllGoingToBeFine.

I quite like Wings sometimes, the snarkiness can be cutting. I'll have a look at that article.

OldCrowMedicineShow Tue 19-Apr-16 17:48:44

Aw ffs. <stares out window in a glakit, sort of Tartan Noir manner>

Well that isn't complex or anything. confused I'll turn up on the day and vote as per usual except twice.

prettybird Tue 19-Apr-16 17:55:05

Dh has just told me that apparently some Labour canvassers are going around telling people that it's illegal to cast both votes for the same party shock. Don't know where he got that one - I hope it's just a rogue element and they will be properly reprimanded reigned in.

I think the key thing about the d'Hondt system is that it is well nigh impossible to second guess, so therefore you should use both your votes as you see fit. If that's both votes for one party, then fine. If you want to split your vote, do so because you like the policies of the parties that you're choosing.

Above all, make sure to vote.

OldCrowMedicineShow Tue 19-Apr-16 18:10:22

Thanks prettybird. Yes, I read that some Labour members were doing that and I cannot see how it would have been to their benefit in any way. Strange.

Absolutely imperative to turn up and vote on the day. I can hear my granny saying "Women died so you could vote!"

That said, I will be glad when it is all over. It has gone on for what seems an eternity.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 18:27:56

I also heard the stories about Labour canvassers telling fibs, but to be generous, until this election it was Labour Party policy that (Labour) candidates couldn't stand on both the constituency and the list votes. Perhaps some ill-informed supporters have kind of mixed things up? confused hmm

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 18:31:48

Oh, probably the benefit they were/are hoping for (if the stories are true) would be to pick up list votes from former Labour voters, who are voting SNP for their constituency MSP. The list is where it's all happening this time round.

prettybird Tue 19-Apr-16 18:34:47

I think Labour have given up on winning constituency seats and are setting their sights onto maximising the list votes which is how Anus Sarwar is going to get into the Scottish Parliament that he derided hmm. Hence them trying to con people into thinking that they're not "allowed" to vote SNP** for both constituency and list angry.

People are perfectly entitled to split their vote - if that's their choice. They are not obliged to do so. angry

prettybird Tue 19-Apr-16 18:37:40

(Bold fail in that final paragraph blush)

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 18:52:26

Do you think Anas will backstab Kez for the leadership? That truly will be the end.

prettybird Tue 19-Apr-16 18:57:35

I think that is a dead cert. And while I think Anus would be a better match for Nicola at FMQs, I think it would be another the nail in the coffin of Scottish Labour.

I live just outside his old Westminster constituency and my local shops are in his constituency. He is not liked locally. His father was more respected than him.

Poppies26 Tue 19-Apr-16 18:57:51

U can also just vote once on your constituency vote and list vote. U don't have to vote for a second, third etc party.
I think the SNP will return the majority of the constituency seats perhaps not Orkney and Shetland. The rest of the parties will be from the list. Think also the Torries be the second party as well.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 19:17:33

Poppies, I think you're getting confused with the way we elect our councils, where we can "rank" candidates. For Holyrood, there's only one vote for the constituency, and one for the list.

Confusing, isn't it? grin

Poppies26 Tue 19-Apr-16 19:21:34

Sorry Haggis u are right. What a stupid error to make!!

FlowerOfTheWest Tue 19-Apr-16 19:29:05

Is the parties pushing the "both votes Labour/SNP/whoever" a new thing at this election, or have I just not noticed it before? I mean, obviously they've all always tried to get as many votes as possible, but it's the particular phrase "both votes" as a slogan/hashtag that I don't recall being used. Although thinking about it, this is the first campaign I've lived in Scotland for since 2003 so campaigning has probably changed a bit since then!

unlucky83 Tue 19-Apr-16 19:48:08

Ahhhhh - thought I understood and now not sure...and I've thrown the thing they sent out away...
If the constituency is tight tactical voting might actually swing it in one parties favour? You are voting for a candidate for your region? It is a FPTP system.
But for the list best to vote for the party whose policies you support? (As it is the PR element)
Is that right?

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 19:48:52

No worries, Poppies, I'm now doubting myself and wondering if the ranking actually applies to EU/MEP elections rather than council... confused

I think the "both votes, one party" push might be a new thing. The system was set up to prevent majority governments, and it was a surprise (to me, anyway!) when SNP got one last time round. This time, they're keen to maintain/increase that majority, hence them pushing the 1&2 thing, I suppose.

Labour have pushed it a bit too, but not with any real heart. And Ruthie is just punting herself!

I'm actually not aware of the LibDem campaign at all, except for Orkney/Shetland, where the message is an uninspiring #SNPbad. I know more about the backroom shenanigans of RISE and (separately) Solidarity.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 19:59:09

Unlucky, in this election, voting tactically in the constituency would presumably be an anti-SNP vote? In that case, look very closely at the candidates and figure which you think is most likely to beat the SNP, and vote for them - eg Labour even if you've always voted Tory.

Then you can vote Tory on the list.

prettybird Tue 19-Apr-16 20:16:25

Labour and the LibDems destroyed the concept of a collaborative parliament in the 1st Scottish Parliament when the LibDems rolled over on their manifesto opposition to tuition fees angry. They just seemed to give credibility to Labour rather than demonstrate/act on any of their principles (I'd even go as far as to argue that the UK LibDem party showed more backbone although not a lot when they were in the coalition with the Tories in the last WM Government hmm)

I think that's where some of the "both votes xxx" has come from.

I do find it somewhat funny that Labour, who had previously not allowed candidates to stand for both constituency and list and had their higher echelons standing in "safe" constituency seats, are now, without a hint of irony, making sure that their leadership and Westminster rejects and potential leaders are top of the regional lists.

unlucky83 Tue 19-Apr-16 20:43:28

hirples that is exactly what I plan on doing - voting for the party most likely to beat the SNP in our constituency ...don't think it will be successful but got to be worth a shot ....(really can't stand the SNP)
Then voting for the party I agree with most on the list - and I am undecided about that ... but most likely won't be the same party...in fact I might even vote for who I think might come second overall in that one too...
I found some posts earlier in this thread misleading - saying no point tactical voting...when there is - or at least might be - in the constituency vote.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 19-Apr-16 20:48:15

I found some posts earlier in this thread misleading - saying no point tactical voting...when there is - or at least might be - in the constituency vote.

Apologies, I was assuming that people would be voting tactically for/against a party rather than an individual.

You do realise that the constituency vote has an impact on the list vote though? They are not discrete.

prettybird Tue 19-Apr-16 20:51:15

You're right unlucky83 - I was wrong to say no point in tactical voting in the Constituency vote. It's the 2nd guessing of the list vote that is fraught with danger.

It's certainly going to be an interesting election wink

I'm just hoping that whatever the result, UKIP don't get a single MSP. I don't want them to have any more credibility than they've already acquired with their arse Coburn MEP.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 19-Apr-16 21:02:34

I was also thinking of tactical voting on the list when I initially replied - probably because I've seen so many arguments about just that! blush But you're right, there might be a point in some constituencies.

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